fill flash woes

Elaine · September 5, 2007

I did an outdoor shoot for my sis-in-law's family over the weekend. Unfortunately, I didn't get to shoot at the time of day I would have liked, and we ended up shooting between 11:30 and 12:30 on a bright but mostly overcast day...yuck! The light was coming nearly straight down and I just could not find a spot or position that would allow me to capture any sparkle in their eyes! Time for fill flash...yes??

Well, I only have my built-in flash, and even turned all the way down it was massively blowing out the shots. I shot in aperture priority (at 2.8 or 5.6, depending on the lens) and even if I turned my flash to -2 AND my exposure compensation to -2, they were very blown out. So, since I didn't have a reflector and I didn't know what I was doing with the flash, I went back to all natural light and having dark eyes (which I really don't like).

If I had greatly reduced my aperture, would it have prevented the blow-outs (and also increased my DOF, which I didn't want)? Is an external flash capable of much greater variations of output, so I could have used one at f/2.8, 90mm, and just filled in their eyes?

I would really rather stick with pure natural lighting all the time, but since I don't always have total control over the location and/or time of day to shoot, I feel like I need to get better at using some flash. I have had some success with it before, but this time I just couldn't get what I wanted. I'd appreciate any pointers and answers to my questions.

Thanks!

Richard · September 5, 2007

I'm no expert on flash, but I would guess that if you were shooting at midday in strong light at f/2.8 and with negative EC, you must have exceeded the synch speed of the flash. Not sure what happens in that case. Maybe post a sample with EXIF.

Regards,

Mr. 2H2O · September 5, 2007

rsinmadrid wrote:

I'm no expert on flash, but I would guess that if you were shooting at midday in strong light at f/2.8 and with negative EC, you must have exceeded the synch speed of the flash. Not sure what happens in that case. Maybe post a sample with EXIF.

Regards,

Elaine,
I agree - sample with EXIF plus try to give us an estimate of how far away you were so we can get an idea about what the settings were doing to your pics - the onboard flash is predictable up to 15ft.

- Mike

SloYerRoll · September 5, 2007

Elaine wrote:

I did an outdoor shoot for my sis-in-law's family over the weekend. Unfortunately, I didn't get to shoot at the time of day I would have liked, and we ended up shooting between 11:30 and 12:30 on a bright but mostly overcast day...yuck! The light was coming nearly straight down and I just could not find a spot or position that would allow me to capture any sparkle in their eyes! Time for fill flash...yes??

Definately yes.

Elaine wrote:

Well, I only have my built-in flash, and even turned all the way down it was massively blowing out the shots. I shot in aperture priority (at 2.8 or 5.6, depending on the lens) and even if I turned my flash to -2 AND my exposure compensation to -2, they were very blown out. So, since I didn't have a reflector and I didn't know what I was doing with the flash, I went back to all natural light and having dark eyes (which I really don't like).

Flash is ALWAYS controlled by aperture (shutter speed controlls ambient only). Flash is also controlled by distance to your subject. In this case it would be good to take two steps back then pop your shot to see how far away your ideal range was then use your zoom to compose.

Elaine wrote:

If I had greatly reduced my aperture, would it have prevented the blow-outs (and also increased my DOF, which I didn't want)?

It would have prevented the highlights. DOF is not a static thing. It is relative to how much of your focal field is taken up by the subject. {Example: Using a 50mm 1.8 take a shot of something 2 feet away from you at f1.8 then take a shot of someone 10 feet away at f1.8. You will see that the DOF on the shot that is far away is much greater than the close shot.} Let your creativity come out when this problem arises though. Just set your camera to manual and expose for the focal point (the person) this will darken the background a bit, but this is a creative way to make your own selective focus by underexposing the background.

Elaine wrote:

Is an external flash capable of much greater variations of output, so I could have used one at f/2.8, 90mm, and just filled in their eyes?

Yes, you have much more flexability w/ strobes. Even if you set the strobe to the most narrow beam of light it can throw. You will still light more than just the eyes.

Elaine wrote:

I would really rather stick with pure natural lighting all the time, but since I don't always have total control over the location and/or time of day to shoot, I feel like I need to get better at using some flash.

I would recommend buying a strobe that has i-ttl or a-ttl functionality since you don't really want to get in to lighting. This way it will be as smart as your camera and do all the heavy lifting for you and just let you take the shots.

-Jon

pathfinder · September 5, 2007

In bright sunlight, at ISO 100, an aperture of f2.8 needs a shutter speed of 1/4000th according to Sunny 16. This is WAAAAAAaaaay beyond your shutter synch speed for flash with a focal plane shutter, which is more like 1/200th. Canon cameras in this situation default to the shutter synch speed of 1/200th unless your flash supports High Speed Synch.

Were you shooting with a Minolta or a Canon built in flash? I don;t think they support High Speed Synch which is what you need for those type shutter speeds. Check your exif data and see what your exposure settings were.

SloYerRoll · September 5, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

This is WAAAAAAaaaay beyond your shutter synch speed for flash with a focal plane shutter,

Thanks for that reminder Pathfinder. I was thinking everyone had the same setup as mine.

pathfinder · September 5, 2007

Doesn't the D200 synch with flash at 1/500th? I know some of the Nikon DSLRs synch at 1/500, but Canons max out at 1/200th or 1/250th, without High Speed Synch.

ShepsMom · September 5, 2007

So does my Nikon D80, i have no clue how to compensate, it's pretty annoying

pathfinder · September 6, 2007

High Speed Synch is a component of the Nikon or EOS external flashes. The little built in flash usually is incapable of High Speed Synch.

Art Scott · September 6, 2007

Elaine....You do not need to spend a great deal of money on high dollar flash units.....a simple "auto thyristor" flash (Vivatar 285) will do everything you need...now first of all any flash needs to be off camera on a bracket ( i prefer Stroboframe or Custom brackets)...2nd the bracket needs to rotate the camera not the flash, this keep flash centered over the lens and normally high enuff to prevent red eye....3rd I recommend a flash meter , a simple one that reads both flash and ambient light :incidently not reflected.....as a simple meter I suggest Shepard or Polaris...this way you can pop your flash read the meter set aperture and shoot away until the lighting draastically changes.....I have even had my clients hold the meter so I can activate the flash it gets them involved and eases any tension they may have just from being photographed...of course they will also ask questions and at some point I pull out my 35 foor sync cord and attach it to flash and meter and do the activating my self from clients position and then tell them that we must wait for my eyes to clear up so I can see again to continue photographing them...I have yet to have an upset client...so far all have enjoyed being included in the process of getting the exposure correct....sorry for the ramblin and I am sure I have left something out...brain a little muddy after 5p to 5a shift .....

Hope this helps some...gotta sleep now.....

pathfinder · September 6, 2007

Art - you are correct that a simple flash like the 285HV will provide plenty of light for portraits. I own a Strobist kit and find it useful. Small, inexpensive, easy to pack around.

It ( the 285Hv) will NOT ALLOW you to use it in full sunlight at f2.8 however. A 580ex WILL work in that situation if used properly... I am not saying the f2.8 choice was a good one, just that it was the aperture used that resulted in overexposure due to not using High Speed Synch.

The 580ex allows more control than a 285HV, but at a significantly higher dollar cost. The 285HVs cost is what it does not do that the 580ex does easily - like automatic fill flash in bright sunlight at a large aperture with High Speed Synch.

Manual flashes work great when you control where the flash is placed and where the subject is to stand - once those facts are nailed down the exposure doesn't change. I agree that a handheld flashmeter is a great assett, particuarly if it will trigger your flash also.

For many folks, auto or ETTL flashes seem easier to use than Manual Flashes. Thats why they make so many auto/TTL flashes isn't it?

SloYerRoll · September 6, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

Doesn't the D200 synch with flash at 1/500th?

Yes

ccpickre · September 6, 2007

I'm sure everything has been answered already, and probably better than I could. But from personal experience, my external Speedlight 430 flash has given me MUCH more flexibility in lighting things. Such as bouncing, variations and amount of light, etc. Plus with high speed sync, it gives you even more possibilties to work with.

I definitely recommend it (not that I'm an expert yet though).

Elaine · September 6, 2007

Thanks for all the replies here! I need to re-read them and digest it all! I don't have any examples of my blown shots because I dumped them immediately. But, I'm positive it was just a high speed sync issue...one that I just completely forgot about because I'm not familiar enough with flash.

I was quite a distance away, using a 90mm to get full body shots of a couple with their child, so I was surprised how blown they were. Just proves I have a TON to learn in this department!

So much to learn and do...so little time! I wish I could survive on 2 hours sleep! I still have pictures to edit from June, and when you take pictures every day, the edit load just doesn't seem to back off. But I really want to master this stuff.

Gotta run for now! Thanks again!

ziggy53 · September 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathfinder
Doesn't the D200 synch with flash at 1/500th?

SloYerRoll wrote:

Yes

Sorry, the Nikon D200 has 1/250th maximum flash sync. (That's still very good.)

The Nikon D70/D70s had 1/500th maximum sync.

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25235

SloYerRoll · September 6, 2007

ziggy53 wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathfinder
Doesn't the D200 synch with flash at 1/500th?

Sorry, the Nikon D200 has 1/250th maximum flash sync. (That's still very good.)

The Nikon D70/D70s had 1/500th maximum sync.

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25235

My mistake. I made an assumption that the 200 synced at 500 since the 70 & 70s synced at tat speed.

Thanks for the correction Ziggy

I'm used to syncing at 1000+ so this 250/500 stuff is for the birds!

pathfinder · September 6, 2007

ziggy53 wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathfinder
Doesn't the D200 synch with flash at 1/500th?

Sorry, the Nikon D200 has 1/250th maximum flash sync. (That's still very good.)

The Nikon D70/D70s had 1/500th maximum sync.

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25235

Thanks Ziggy, I wear a white hat, so I am not always certain of the finer details in Nikonian land. I knew some Nikons synched at 1/500th, just not which particular ones.

Most medium format lenses with iris shutters synch at 1/500th or higher also, don't they?

Art Scott · September 7, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

Most medium format lenses with iris shutters synch at 1/500th or higher also, don't they?

Leaf shutters will sync as fast as the highest shutter sppeed availble except on cameras that also have a focal plane shutter installed (hasslead, kiev and others of this sort)...if it is like a rollie or mamiya c330 then whatever is the fastest shutter speed it will sync there.....

Scott_Quier · September 7, 2007

Elaine wrote:

Thanks for all the replies here! I need to re-read them and digest it all! I don't have any examples of my blown shots because I dumped them immediately. But, I'm positive it was just a high speed sync issue...one that I just completely forgot about because I'm not familiar enough with flash. I was quite a distance away, using a 90mm to get full body shots of a couple with their child, so I was surprised how blown they were. Just proves I have a TON to learn in this department!

So much to learn and do...so little time! I wish I could survive on 2 hours sleep! I still have pictures to edit from June, and when you take pictures every day, the edit load just doesn't seem to back off. But I really want to master this stuff.

Gotta run for now! Thanks again!

You were over-exposed by 4 or 5 stops, see PF's post above for your required shutter speed.

In addition, at the distance you indicate, you on-board flash probably did not contribute much to the exposure - it mostly came from the sun.

That's all well and good, but how do you fix it the next time?

As has already been indicated, a dedicated flash unit that talks to your camera is a good start.
Determine the exposure of your background and make your camera settings match.
If you camera doesn't support high-speed shutter synch, make sure your SS is within bounds and set the aperture accordingly. If it does, know that your flash power will be greatly reduced. The high-speed shutter synch function is performed by the flash firing multiple times during the exposure. So, each pulse will be less than full power; figure your effective flash power to be roughly (full power)/(number of pulses). Is that enough, given your distance from the subject?
You can then set the flash to 1/2 to 2/3 stop under that exposure to do a nice job of fill-flashing.

I hope this helps a little.

Elaine · September 7, 2007

Scott_Quier wrote:

You were over-exposed by 4 or 5 stops, see PF's post above for your required shutter speed.

In addition, at the distance you indicate, you on-board flash probably did not contribute much to the exposure - it mostly came from the sun.

That's all well and good, but how do you fix it the next time?
As has already been indicated, a dedicated flash unit that talks to your camera is a good start.

Determine the exposure of your background and make your camera settings match.

If you camera doesn't support high-speed shutter synch, make sure your SS is within bounds and set the aperture accordingly. If it does, know that your flash power will be greatly reduced. The high-speed shutter synch function is performed by the flash firing multiple times during the exposure. So, each pulse will be less than full power; figure your effective flash power to be roughly (full power)/(number of pulses). Is that enough, given your distance from the subject?

You can then set the flash to 1/2 to 2/3 stop under that exposure to do a nice job of fill-flashing.

I hope this helps a little.

VERY helpful, Scott! Thank you!

Scott_Quier · September 7, 2007

Something else that may help you out - check out this thread I started some time ago

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=64619

jeffreaux2 · September 11, 2007

I could be wrong, but from what I can find on the Minolta you use it has a sync speed of 1/160th. It will (if it is the Dynax 5D) support high speed sync when used with a flash that also supports this. Maxxum flash 5600HS or 3600HS. You might also look at the Sigma 500super. It supports Canon and Nikon high spd sync and might also work for you.

jeffreaux2 · September 11, 2007

http://konicaminolta.com.hk/ph/eng/pdf/owner/dynax5d_owner_e.pdf

Scroll down to page 112.......if this is the camera you use.

Shane422 · September 11, 2007

I had a similar problem this weekend and rembered in the middle of shooting about the sync speed issue. Now I'm wondering if a ND filter would have taken care of the situation by taming the ambient light down into the range of my sync speed. But that also assumes that the flash would have the power to overcome the filter then.

fill flash woes

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