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![divamum](https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/uploads/customavatars/43/navatar_10243.jpg)
Howdy folks...
Just some musings. I've found it a bit disappointing to come back to the Challenges after a hiatus and see so little discussion of the images, particularly those in the galleries. There are a few regulars who post for and/or give feedback, but even that is a small percentage of the entry field, it seems . I've alluded to this a couple of times, I know, but this round in particular it seems that there's just such a dearth of comments!
It seems to me that there's always a fair number of "attaboy" "great shot" comments for the most popular/successful shots, but that people aren't always adding their views on the less-successful images. Which are probably the ones that need it most!!
Speaking for myself, I learn far more from constructive criticism than from the ego-boost of "what a great shot" (nice though it may be to have that when warranted!
). In a big round, I can of course understand it's not possible to find time to go through an entire gallery, but when the numbers are lighter.... :dunno
I guess I'm just wondering why people aren't contributing so much in this way any more (a few are, I know, which I sure appreciate!). Worried about offending? Not sure how to say "this image sucks" in a constructive way? No time? Not sure if it's ok to post less-than-positive comments?
In any case, just thought it was worth opening the discussion on this. Speaking for myself, the comments are the MOST important part of the Challenges, and I really miss the Enthusiasticke Inputte Of Olde...
Just some musings. I've found it a bit disappointing to come back to the Challenges after a hiatus and see so little discussion of the images, particularly those in the galleries. There are a few regulars who post for and/or give feedback, but even that is a small percentage of the entry field, it seems . I've alluded to this a couple of times, I know, but this round in particular it seems that there's just such a dearth of comments!
It seems to me that there's always a fair number of "attaboy" "great shot" comments for the most popular/successful shots, but that people aren't always adding their views on the less-successful images. Which are probably the ones that need it most!!
Speaking for myself, I learn far more from constructive criticism than from the ego-boost of "what a great shot" (nice though it may be to have that when warranted!
![:D :D](https://dgrin.com/resources/emoji/lol.png)
I guess I'm just wondering why people aren't contributing so much in this way any more (a few are, I know, which I sure appreciate!). Worried about offending? Not sure how to say "this image sucks" in a constructive way? No time? Not sure if it's ok to post less-than-positive comments?
In any case, just thought it was worth opening the discussion on this. Speaking for myself, the comments are the MOST important part of the Challenges, and I really miss the Enthusiasticke Inputte Of Olde...
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One thing I'd like to see change in these competitions is once you've entered a photo to the gallery it stays there, no adding more and asking for the other one or ones to be deleted. If you're not sure of your entry, don't enter it until the end of the contest.
I continue to enter the challenges, because I want to keep them alive, even when I don't have the time to put out my best effort or to comment much.
Ha! I am never sure of my entry and I often enter late in the challenge period.
:giggle Well you're not the only one, there were multiples in this round. I just think it should be one of those things where, once you're in, you're in. You can always change things, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.
Sherstone? Thoughts?
Spread the love! Go comment on something!
I totally agree with you on how helpful making comments can be for the reviewer as well as the photographers - especially if they are thoughtful comments offering some specifics. The last time this came up (in the general thread), I shared some links that I thought might be helpful to those who are relatively new to this kind of thing - like myself. (Can't find them now....)
We all know that "life happens" and can get in the way of commenting every time. But if enough of us are making the effort, it helps even things out. I also know that it can be discouraging to be one of the few making comments on the gallery (as I was last time). I appreciate the time and effort you took to make thoughtful comments on every photo in both galleries! It was helpful that you gave input on each photo on its own merits and in relation to the theme.
For me, it was a matter of time with this round. (I get so behind at work when I travel overseas.) But I also found myself in a bit of a muddle with the early shots. Some (outdoor) shots were titled in a way that said "early morning" but were taken later in the day. Nothing to say folks can't do that but it's not my cup of tea. So it brought home the diversity of perspectives that enriches these galleries and can make one a bit more "tongue-tied" when commenting.
[Does this whole discussion belong in the general thread, btw?]
I tend to wait to the end of the challenge period as well - especially if I might offer something along the lines of constructive criticism. That's just what I'm more comfortable doing, not a suggestion for all.
For those who haven't seen this before, here is a blog post by Travis Owney on "Why Enter a Photo Contest" which is pertinent to this discussion.
A few other thoughts:
- We seem to have a lot of new participants and/or folks returning or stopping by. I wonder whether it might be useful to touch on this kind of thing periodically? I remember having several aha moments during previous discussions.
- Would it be fun/helpful to have a dgrin introduction thread perhaps? Inviting people to introduce themselves at some point? Or just let this happen naturally as it does now?
Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries
We all have time constraints, some more than others, & I applaud those who do take the time to enter comments regularly (I would also like to be one of those, but life intervenes). Many times I find it hard to comment on a photo for various reasons, but after a previous discussion on comments a few months ago, I have tried to comment on all the photos in the next round when I have earned a top 5 honor. I look at it in a similar manner as the 2 judge system - seems like it was the 2 previous winners who were to comment on the next round & choose finalists, right?
If we are looking for suggestions, we could encourage the top 5 in the previous round to comment on all the shots in the next round - the winners should think of it as giving back to the community that voted their shot into the top 5 & earned them the awards from Smugmug.
A photograph is an artistic expression of life, captured one moment at a time . . .
http://bartlettphotoart.smugmug.com/
Hi Lillian, I like this idea and will try to follow through this next round.
Gretchen
P.S. Your thoughtful commentary is much appreciated when you do have time to jump in and comment!
My SmugMug Galleries
That being said, this ties into one of my only problems with the challenges....
Say for instance, like me in this recent Mega, you enter an image and receive criticism less than shining (even if deserved) prior to the judging, it feels as if you've been quite publicly labeled as "not worthy." Who knows, maybe someone else looked at the photo and saw what I saw with it and didn't comment with a positive comment? And to me, as the photographer, defending the photo within the gallery doesn't seem quite like the right thing to do here.....or at least, you don't really see people doing it. Wish you did, though, because then you'd learn more about why the photographer chose to enter the particular photo. So, anyway, if you're photo gets a harsher critique, you kind of have to take the hit. The negative critique has to effect the outcome of the final vote. And so does gushing for popular photos. All of a sudden, 6 people love it so I probably should too, even if I hadn't really noticed at first. Feels a bit "high school popularity contest." Which leads me to this:
1. What if critique was allowed only after the voting? If you loved it/ hated it before the contest, you'll still feel the same after the contest. The concern is that people would then never get around to it, but if it is required by someone (such as previous winners), well, then, at least there'd be something to start the conversation.
2. What if there were a few basic critique guidelines? An example would be (and this might be silly, but I think it would work) encouraging critiquers to always use the word "because" in their critique. Another example would be to leave a critique open-ended, encouraging response from the entrant.....
3. Or, perhaps, just leave the critique out of the gallery and keep it on the forums........the idea of the "Enthusiasticke Inputte Of Olde..." sounds swell......
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I can see your point but see advantages to the current system. Sometimes we enter the shot we like best but also ask for input in a thread. If someone suggests cropping it differently or using a different shot, it's nice to be able to switch out your entry. Ironically, I used to wait to post an entry until after getting input in a thread but have started "going with my gut" for an entry and then asking for input - sort of as a way to work on "finding my voice" as a photographer, if that makes any sense.
I also find it very helpful to have a heads up on the direction others are going so that I don't inadvertently work on the same idea, possibly spending hours shooting and processing, and then find the idea "taken" by another. (I experienced a few of those and I'm sure others have as well!) So I tend to look at it as a courtesy to others to share your idea in a thread or by entering the shot you think are going to use. Much more productive!
That said, if we adopt the one entry and no changes idea, I'll live with it as long as it doesn't make more work for Sean. As in, people making a mistake in their user name, title, or exif data and not being able to correct it themselves or being disqualified. The busier we are, the easier it is to make a mistake.
Cheers,
Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries
I like this idea myself. I haven't been real good lately on commenting due to my current workload. But I like the idea of no critiquing good or bad during the voting.
That being said I will try harder in the future to add my thoughts about entries for what they will be worth
http://snaptx.smugmug.com/
Light is everything in life and photography.
Technically speaking I hesitate to give technique type feedback because I might be telling them something they already know and I'm afraid I would insult their intelligence...
Jeff,
The only thing I liked about your entry was the caption, I thought it was hilarious... the shot though, was just gross, didn't appeal to me at all... and I couldn't tell you how to make it better because I wouldn't shoot it... sorry
As much as I like to read all the comments, I'm not so good at leaving great comments. Often, I don't have enough time right then and think I'll come back later and enter a comment, but never make it back. Usually though, I find it hard to put into words WHY I like or dislike an image. Sometimes the subject of an image just doesn't appeal to me. The picture may be technically perfect, but I'm just not interested in the subject. I kind of hate to leave a comment that says that. I don't think it's really helpful.
I haven't been very active in the challenges in a while, but hope to start playing again--maybe this round. August-November is my busiest time of the year at work, plus my daughter is in marching band and our schedules are just crazy with football games and marching contests. Once that ends, the holidays are upon us and life just doesn't slow down. It is hard for me to find time to enter comments during this time of year, much less actually participate! That said, that's really just an excuse for why I quit participating. A few times, the subject just didn't interest me, but really the main reason I quit entering was the lack of feedback. I'm one of those who rarely received comments--good or bad. There are a couple of wonderful folks here that take the time to comment for almost everyone and I always appreciated those so much, but usually my images were ignored. I felt like it didn't matter what I did, I just wasn't getting any better and I didn't know what to 'fix.' I really got pretty discouraged. It just wasn't fun anymore and I felt like I'd never be able to please this group. I'd never be creative enough. I'd never improve. I'd never be good enough. I didn't want to even try anymore.
I actually did put my dSLR camera aside for a little while and just shot with a little point & shoot. Just little snapshots of whatever. I think I'm just about ready to try my hand at a challenge again, maybe.
The point of all this ramble is that feedback IS important--especially to the people who aren't getting all the accolades. If we are all here to improve, honest critique (doesn't have to be mean-spirited) is needed for all images. All of us (including me) will just have to make more of an effort to get it done.
Thanks for listening & thanks Divamum for bringing up the subject.
Sherry
I too prefer to leave comments as late as possible, ideally after the judging. Can I suggest (Sherstone, see what you think of this idea), that the comments fields are disabled until the poll has closed? Just a thought - might be too complicated (or people might feel it's not "worth it" once the voting has passed), but just a suggestion for consideration.
I think you've said exactly what I've been feeling, Kristin
Great discussion, guys
I think we asked Sean about this the last time we discussed the dearth of comments and it was too complicated, but perhaps that was one of the other suggestions.... We could post a gallery wide comment at the beginning asking people to hold off on commenting until the voting ends and ask Sean to include this idea when posting a new challenge - if there is consensus around this idea.
Also in an earlier discussion, Froch shared his system of keeping a running document of comments that he could then copy and paste into the gallery. That gives one the ability to start commenting when an entry hits the gallery but hold off on posting. It could be less overwhelming than trying do this all at once. [Froch, please feel free to correct or expand this....]
I think folks would come to check the gallery comments even if we waited until after the voting.
A big thanks to all who take time to comment on the individual threads! I agree with Sherry that this is extremely helpful!
Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries
You don't have to be sorry, but posting your comments in the gallery would have made more sense.
ps......it was just water, not urine.
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I knew this would be a good subject and when I came back there are 2 pages already.
Yes it seems that commenting has fallen off a bit. I am guilty of not participating more. Time and priorities are funny things and change over time. But this is still a great learning tool for any photographer beginning or advanced.
I do like the current system of the challenges as they stand, but I wonder if the old system cultivated more feedback. Being that if you did become a judge you had to give critiques and might be asked to guest judge if you were a more active participant on the boards.
I feel that the general C&C should be done on the forum post. Comments in the gallery should be given after the voting.
I know when I do get the chance to go on the boards I will look at post and if comments have been made and I do not see more to add I sometimes will not post. Especailly if time is a factor.
As far as getting people more involved that is a hard thing to foster. But can say I will try and be more supportive.
See just bringing it up will help motivate people.
http://kadvantage.smugmug.com/
Speaking for myself, I'm not insulted by that - as long as it's not actually abusive and gives some indication of what the actual problem is or how it might have been changed, it's helpful. And if it isn't.... I'm perfectly free to disagree with a posted comment (whether privately to myself, or publicly by response)
I wish I were not so guilty of this but I am . My wildlife shooting is a bit different than most of the entry's . So what little feedback I do give is hard I find even thou you can reread before you post it still does not come out well with me . I am sorry to all of you for my failing in this matter ! I try to always enter a shot even if it is never going to get a vote and I have played here for years ---lots of years = I am a bad boy :cry
divamum some feedback great post
“PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE ‘JAZZ’ FOR THE EYES…”
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I am squeamish, like visualxpressions, sometimes to offer critique when I likely know less than the photographer. I also tend to think that a lot of a reaction to a photo is a matter of taste, and tend to "say nothing at all" if it doesn't strike my particular fancy.
I love to see and be inspired by the submissions here!
I agree that it might be helpful if there was a clear protocol of commenting behavior.
My own rule of thumb for expressing a reservation in a comment is basically WWH:
- WHAT I don't like
- WHY I don't like it
- HOW it might be altered/improved
If something is obviously a matter of my own personal taste, I acknowledge that, and I certainly don't take offense if somebody tells me that an image doesn't work for them; if you read back through feedback threads, you will often find strongly diverging (often diametrically opposed!) opinions!
As another newbie, I feel this is very well said by Powder. Whether challenges or even threads, a lot of times I find myself debating whether to comment or not because of my experience level as well as not wanting to "upset the order of things."
IMO, Dgrin is an extremely friendly and constructive community. Still there does seem to be a pecking order (my perception) that I am still trying to comprehend. This limits some of my comments because I don't want to be the newbie that becomes known as THAT GUY, which would end up costing me the valuable, friendly advice that is available here.
Without being very experienced at the challenges (have entered 2 of last 3), is it a safe/true assumption that comments fluctuate with the challenge topic? For example, the Courage/Fear challenge falling at Halloween seemed to open up a lot of obvious possibilites for entries and, IIRC, there was a fair amount of comments made on those entries.
Thanks for reading and I hope this contributes to the discussion.
Tom
[Excerpt from earlier post]
When I started being more active on dgrin last February (2011), it seemed that commenting in the threads and entry galleries was encouraged. I knew from experience that general comments like "great shot" aren't all that helpful, so I googled "how to critique a photo" just to get some idea of what might be expected and more helpful. I think there are a lot of good points in this article: How to Critique a Photo The author offers this thought right up front:
Some people think they don't know enough about photography to write critiques. This isn't true. To write a useful critique, you need only three things:
- a reasonably decent monitor to view the photos
- at least one functioning eye
- a desire to help by writing honestly and constructively
The author suggests three broad areas that one could comment on: technique, composition, and whether or not you like the photo and why. I tend to agree with the author that even "beginners" are qualified to comment on how they respond to the photo and its story but I'd be interested in hearing whether folks think that is helpful to them or not. (Looking back at this article, I realize that I sometimes fall back into the "great shot" kind of comment and will try to be more specific.)
If folks haven't read Travis Owney's article "Why Enter a Photography Contest" about the value of commentary and critique to a photographer, I highly recommend it. (It is in the DSS Challenge links under Other Stuff.) Owney writes: "Critique others. I can think of very few ways to improve your own photography than to find areas of improvement in the work of others."
Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries