Upload to Smugmug with FTP

liangzan · January 24, 2011

MODERATOR EDIT: This is a 3rd Party app, not built by SmugMug.

Hi guys,

I've built a tool to upload to your Smugmug albums with FTP. Its almost ready. If you are interested to be a beta user, feel free to register on http://smugftp.com Thanks!

Andy · January 24, 2011

I bet there are lots of folks here that would love to try it http://feedback.smugmug.com/forums/17723-smugmug/suggestions/294159-ftp-uploading?ref=title

SamirD · January 31, 2011

I'm on it.

SamirD · January 31, 2011

Interesting so far. Too late/early for me to work with it today. Will continue in 8hrs.

PhilDaPhot · January 31, 2011

liangzan wrote: »

Hi guys,

I've built a tool to upload to your Smugmug albums with FTP. Its almost ready. If you are interested to be a beta user, feel free to register on http://smugftp.com Thanks!

I am only getting this when I click on your link

liangzan · January 31, 2011

PhilDaPhot wrote: »

I am only getting this when I click on your link

Sorry guys, it crashed. Its up now. We're still in beta. So for those who don't mind trying beta software, feel free to sign up at smugftp.com. Don't worry, your photos are not affected

kdog · January 31, 2011

Seems to me there's an awful lot of trust involved for folks to proxy their photos through an unknown server advertised by a newly registered user with no profile information.

SamirD · January 31, 2011

It's a risk you have to take. Besides, they have to apply to get a SM API Key. SM can shut them down anytime if there's a security issue.

jfriend · January 31, 2011

SamirD wrote: »

It's a risk you have to take. Besides, they have to apply to get a SM API Key. SM can shut them down anytime if there's a security issue.

I'm a little surprised that paying for the bandwidth of a proxy would be a sustainable model. I'd also worry about the error handling (not the ftp part), but in the second hop to Smugmug and how that gets dealt with appropriately.

SamirD · January 31, 2011

jfriend wrote: »

I'd also worry about the error handling (not the ftp part), but in the second hop to Smugmug and how that gets dealt with appropriately.

That's my biggest concern. Because in the end, the final transfer will still be prone to all the problems that still exist.

Art Scott · January 31, 2011

I am very leeeeeery.......is this coming from another country, if so how do we know that our images and info are safe????

jfriend · January 31, 2011

SamirD wrote: »

That's my biggest concern. Because in the end, the final transfer will still be prone to all the problems that still exist.

And it's even more difficult with ftp on the front end because there's no easy way to feed errors back to the uploading client.

liangzan · January 31, 2011

jfriend wrote: »

And it's even more difficult with ftp on the front end because there's no easy way to feed errors back to the uploading client.

Just curious, what sort of errors are encountered for the hop to Smugmug?

liangzan · January 31, 2011

Art Scott wrote: »

I am very leeeeeery.......is this coming from another country, if so how do we know that our images and info are safe????

A few points to address your concerns

- At any time, you can revoke the right for an app(in this case SmugFTP) to access/write into your account at your SM control panel.

- I'm using Oauth for authentication, I'm not given your actual SM password.

- All passwords are encrypted on the system.

- SmugFTP does not keep your photos. Photos are removed as soon as it gets into SM. If not we do whatever it takes to get it there.

I can't do anything about my country though. Its not fair that being a non-US citizen means I'm likely to be dishonest.

My motivation for doing the app is the frustration with the upload options. I want something fast and reliable. And I do not want to navigate to the page everytime I upload.

jfriend · January 31, 2011

liangzan wrote: »

Just curious, what sort of errors are encountered for the hop to Smugmug?

Smugmug goes into read-only mode (and won't accept uploads). Smugmug site has temporary issues. Internet link between you and Smugmug has a hiccup. Image upload fails for a legitimate reason (image too large, too many pixels, wrong type, image corrupted, etc...). Try uploading 1000 photos at a time and you'll see some hiccups every once in a while.

SamirD · January 31, 2011

liangzan wrote: »

A few points to address your concerns

- At any time, you can revoke the right for an app(in this case SmugFTP) to access/write into your account at your SM control panel.

- I'm using Oauth for authentication, I'm not given your actual SM password.

- All passwords are encrypted on the system.

- SmugFTP does not keep your photos. Photos are removed as soon as it gets into SM. If not we do whatever it takes to get it there.

I can't do anything about my country though. Its not fair that being a non-US citizen means I'm likely to be dishonest.

My motivation for doing the app is the frustration with the upload options. I want something fast and reliable. And I do not want to navigate to the page everytime I upload.

Thank you for addressing our concerns. If only you could see what your fellow countrymen/women do to dishonor your reputation here, you'd be leery too.

I'm very glad that you've taken the time to develop a solution and share it with us. I'll be doing extensive testing as soon as time allows.

Art Scott · February 1, 2011

yes thank for addressing my questions........but still we don't really need another upload service, since EVERYONE at Smugmug loves Mozilla and other open source apps...Mozilla had
FireFTP and I currently use SmartFTP to send files to my Processor....I personally do not want to have to download another piece of software to upload to my own Galleries...I am not saying not to do it...but the option has alwys been there and SM just need to open the door for FIREFTP or any other FTP Client that people already have.....I think I saw mention by Andy that he is using or has used You Send it..........I would think he would have called on the troops years ago to open this door.

As paying clients we should not have had to ask for or do a feature request, soince FTP is nearly as old as modern computers to start with............

ian408 · February 1, 2011

It's user contributed so if you don't want it, don't use it.

Art Scott wrote: »

yes thank for addressing my questions........but still we don't really need another upload service, since EVERYONE at Smugmug loves Mozilla and other open source apps...Mozilla had
FireFTP and I currently use SmartFTP to send files to my Processor....I personally do not want to have to download another piece of software to upload to my own Galleries...I am not saying not to do it...but the option has alwys been there and SM just need to open the door for FIREFTP or any other FTP Client that people already have.....I think I saw mention by Andy that he is using or has used You Send it..........I would think he would have called on the troops years ago to open this door.

As paying clients we should not have had to ask for or do a feature request, soince FTP is nearly as old as modern computers to start with............

Art Scott · February 1, 2011

I know I have a choice of using or not....

The FTP protocol, enabling file transfers between remote systems, was first published as a "Request for Comments" (a collection of technical and organizational notes about the Internet) on April 16, 1971. Since it's inception, FTP has been the standard protocol used to transfer files between remote computers.

FTP is PROVEN...and has been PROVEN for over 40 yrs.......should I link to the whole history of FTP

ian408 · February 1, 2011

Art, I'm pretty familiar with the Internet. I'm impressed with your ability to google though

What I don't understand is why you're complaining about "but still we don't really need another upload service, since EVERYONE at Smugmug loves Mozilla and other open source apps." and "As paying clients we should not have had to ask for or do a feature request, soince FTP is nearly as old as modern computers to start with............" when this is a service contributed by a user.

Art Scott wrote: »

I know I have a choice of using or not....

The FTP protocol, enabling file transfers between remote systems, was first published as a "Request for Comments" (a collection of technical and organizational notes about the Internet) on April 16, 1971. Since it's inception, FTP has been the standard protocol used to transfer files between remote computers.

FTP is PROVEN...and has been PROVEN for over 40 yrs.......should I link to the whole history of FTP

Art Scott · February 1, 2011

ian408 wrote: »

Art, I'm pretty familiar with the Internet. I'm impressed with your ability to google though

What I don't understand is why you're complaining about "but still we don't really need another upload service, since EVERYONE at Smugmug loves Mozilla and other open source apps." and "As paying clients we should not have had to ask for or do a feature request, since FTP is nearly as old as modern computers to start with............" when this is a service contributed by a user.

I did not have to google it, I already knew it:D.....My complaint is and has been ...FTP is a STANDARD and has been since 1971.....as such it should have been an option when SM 1st went online .......and also because it is a tried and proven standard with nearly 40yrs sustainability behind it....there is no need for a frustrated SMUGMUG user to have to try and write code so he can ftp with HIS/HER uploader, it is a waste of his/her time, not to mention having to test it fix the probs and then have to maintain his/her code .....FREE FTP uploaders have been around for several decades...........it would have been simple logic to have the standard in place or if it was a true oversight...get it in place as soon as the first upload complaint came in....it is simple logic.

Andy · February 2, 2011

Art Scott wrote: »

simple

OK Art, thanks! I doubt there's many folks that are out there that know more about reliable cloud computing, reliable storage, and reliable fast image processing of millions and millions and millions of images a day (big, huge files btw) than our CEO and our Ops team. Right now, FTP's not in the cards, but maybe, one day sure. Thanks for your passionate feedback.

By the way, versus the # of customers we have and the huge number of full-res images we're taking in every single day, the number of complaints we have about uploading is extremely, extremely, low.

If you're having trouble of any kind, we can help. Heroes are standing by 365 days a year (we don't sleep!) http://smugmug.com/help/emailreal

ian408 · February 2, 2011

Art Scott wrote: »

I did not have to google it, I already knew it:D.....My complaint is and has been ...FTP is a STANDARD and has been since 1971.....as such it should have been an option when SM 1st went online .......and also because it is a tried and proven standard with nearly 40yrs sustainability behind it....there is no need for a frustrated SMUGMUG user to have to try and write code so he can ftp with HIS/HER uploader, it is a waste of his/her time, not to mention having to test it fix the probs and then have to maintain his/her code .....FREE FTP uploaders have been around for several decades...........it would have been simple logic to have the standard in place or if it was a true oversight...get it in place as soon as the first upload complaint came in....it is simple logic.

Well, if you're that familiar with FTP, then you'll know some of the issues with the protocol which have lead to a number of different implementations of both clients and servers to address these issues. There are even a number of different file transfer protocols that are more reliable/faster/have better UI's and so on.

Art Scott · February 2, 2011

Andy wrote: »

Right now, FTP's not in the cards, but maybe, one day sure. Thanks for your passionate feedback.

Not sure what the laughy clown face is about and doesn't matter.......

Why exactly is it not in the works????

That is why I said my feature request would PROBABLY not see the light of day.....but FTP is and ahs been a computer standard since 1971..........

Had trouble with the awesome fantastic uploader that was just implemented a shport while ago...it just freakin stopped and I had restart the uploads 4 times...

this probably would not have happened if the uploaders were FTP, not sayin that ftp can't hiccup but my uploads would have started over by them selves when the path was open again...there is a reason why ANSI grants standards to certain applications and not others.......

As to the we never sleep comment.......maybe...doesn't mean you won't get an email saying to hold on it could take a couple days to get anything figured out or that there is only 1 person that knows anything about this it could take a few days....yep I have gotten both.

Richard · February 2, 2011

What precisely are the advantages of the utility over using the SmugMug uploaders? My uploads seem to be limited only by my outbound net bandwidth, and I don't see how putting another app in the stew can change that.

ian408 · February 2, 2011

Art Scott wrote: »

this probably would not have happened if the uploaders were FTP, not sayin that ftp can't hiccup but my uploads would have started over by them selves when the path was open again...there is a reason why ANSI grants standards to certain applications and not others.......

I've implemented software delivery systems using FTP as the mechanism for file delivery and I can tell you that on a large scale, FTP is unreliable. There are any number of reasons it just won't work; most of which are related to corporate networking. Different FTP clients behave differently; some report failure when the file was successfully downloaded, short writes occur, the client stops for some reason (network latency, etc.). Firewalls block the range of ports used by FTP, etc. The list is long and I've dealt with all of them.

You mention your client restarts. That is not the normal behavior and something added by a developer to help insure success. The same is true for clients and servers that support resumption of downloads when they fail. In both cases, not all FTP clients or servers support these features because they're extensions of the RFC (there are several 114, 765, 959, 2228, 2640, 2773, 3659, 5797).

FTP is a great tool for the transfer of files but it is not perfect and in large environments, it's not necessarily the best, most reliable or most efficient tool for the job.

FTP is not an ANSI standard either. It may be written in an ANSI standard language but even that does not guarantee perfection.

SamirD · February 11, 2011

ian408 wrote: »

Art, I'm pretty familiar with the Internet. I'm impressed with your ability to google though

Come on, this is uncalled for. Art is simply trying to make a point. No need to take it personally.

Art Scott wrote: »

Why exactly is it not in the works????

They have their reasons Art. It's their business and they will run it the way they want. As customers, we can voice our opinion, even en masse via systems like the feedback system, but they ultimately know what makes business sense.

I signed up for a Exposure Manager account years ago when I couldn't deal with SM's upload issues anymore. They have a WONDERFUL ftp implementation that SM could adopt if they wanted. I would've switched to EM if SM didn't implement videos around the same time. Video implementation was another problem I was facing at the time. When SM added video support and it fit seamlessly into my workflow, I stayed. But it was really close.

Bottom line is probably said best as, "love SM or leave it".

SamirD · February 11, 2011

Richard wrote: »

What precisely are the advantages of the utility over using the SmugMug uploaders? My uploads seem to be limited only by my outbound net bandwidth, and I don't see how putting another app in the stew can change that.

FTP is an extremely standard way to transfer files via the Internet. It does have quirks, but not nearly as many as http transfers.

And because FTP is a standard that is based on clients and servers, you can use whatever type of ftp client you want to connect to a server--the built-in client on windows and macs, filezilla, cuteftp, wsftp, bulletproof, and many others. And because all these clients are standard and so is the server, the upload process won't just 'break' like it does with the current system when something is accidentally or purposely changed.

Richard · February 11, 2011

SamirD wrote: »

FTP is an extremely standard way to transfer files via the Internet. It does have quirks, but not nearly as many as http transfers.

And because FTP is a standard that is based on clients and servers, you can use whatever type of ftp client you want to connect to a server--the built-in client on windows and macs, filezilla, cuteftp, wsftp, bulletproof, and many others. And because all these clients are standard and so is the server, the upload process won't just 'break' like it does with the current system when something is accidentally or purposely changed.

I understand the value of standards and all that. But I still don't understand what the problem is with the SM uploaders. They work fine for me.

Dan7312 · February 11, 2011

I know ftp is an rfc and all that but these days I don't it is the most widely used upload technique. It seems like http and custom apps, like dropbox, mesh, smugmug, blazeback and so on do the uploading these days. Also I've found the ftp in practice is not any more reliable for faster than any of those other techniques.

As far as ftp being a standard in fact I'm not so sure. I've had problems with ftp server/clients being unhappy with each other. Although it probably not as big an issue for 'tog, using an ftp client from inside of a corp. network can sometimes be a big issue. Also I've found that hotel internets access often has trouble with anything other than http.

An there are lots of ftp clients to choose from, but that in itself is part of the problem. Ftp clients need to be configured and you have to know where the buttons are. They are a real hassle for help desks in that they end up have to handhold users through an app that neither has ever used before.

Some of the ftp sites I've dealt with in the past require a particular ftp client because of this and the won't support you if you don't. I remember in the past one site I had to deal with and couldn't get uploads to work. The said I *had* to switch to a particurlar ftp client and that must be the problem. I did and when we finally got things working it was their site that was messed up.

So I can see why SmugMug might not want to have an ftp site if only because of the support issues. I also don't think it would make the uploads any faster or more reliable.

SamirD wrote: »

FTP is an extremely standard way to transfer files via the Internet. It does have quirks, but not nearly as many as http transfers.

And because FTP is a standard that is based on clients and servers, you can use whatever type of ftp client you want to connect to a server--the built-in client on windows and macs, filezilla, cuteftp, wsftp, bulletproof, and many others. And because all these clients are standard and so is the server, the upload process won't just 'break' like it does with the current system when something is accidentally or purposely changed.

SamirD · February 11, 2011

Richard wrote: »

I understand the value of standards and all that. But I still don't understand what the problem is with the SM uploaders. They work fine for me.

So you've never, in the entire time you've been with SM, had any type of upload issue related to a change/upgrade/improvement in the uploaders?