no print sales from the wedding yet!?

thenimirra · July 16, 2008

:dunno I don't know what's going on. I haven't sold a single print from the wedding shots yet! The bride hasn't even paid me the $100 I charged her for a CD with 4X6 images on them. What gives and what can I do to get more sales? Someone suggested I only leave the galleries up on my website for a given period of time to force sales.
I still can't get over the father of the groom trying to give me less than what the contract was stated for, which was just a paltry $500. He told me someone else told him it would be only $400....that's not what the contract says that the bride signed. And he's the same one who wanted all the high res images on CD and then didn't respond when I told him how much it would cost for ALL the images (more than 600 high res images, $3000; or he could pick his favorite 25 for $150, favorite 50, etc. etc. instead of getting all of them on CD).

rwells · July 16, 2008

Not to be mean, but...

Learn any leasons?

1) Only give out products when you have the money in your pocket.

Fill in the blanks...

2)

3)

4)

thenimirra · July 16, 2008

sorry, I vented without being specific enough. I was paid the $500, and I made the CDs for the bride, but when she didn't have the money I didn't give her the CDs.

nipprdog · July 16, 2008

oops.

Edited to add; my 'oops' comment was not referring to the OP. i originally posted about giving the CD to the bride, but after I posted, I read the OP's clarification that she hadn't given the CD to the bride.

kygarden · July 16, 2008

Vent away!

At least you got the $500. As far as the prints go and no sales of those, I'm a little surprised they haven't bought anything yet, but I imagine they're holding out for you to give them a CD they can get their own prints from. They seem like that type, given your description of what happened. That's a shame...and frustrating for sure.

urbanaries · July 16, 2008

Welcome to the world of online photo gallery ghost towns.

First lesson for the new girl in town: Get every penny you need to make from the wedding in your initial contract or package.

Anything else is icing.

This phenomenon is not limited to cheap weddings either. I sold a $3000 wedding (coverage plus e-session, disc and albums) last December and they have not ordered one print from me....they waited until that CD came and trucked it on down to Wal-Mart. I know it was WM too, because the clerk called and verified my copyright letter (nice!)

People are impatient and cheap. Get yours, and get it upfront.

mrfizzed · July 17, 2008

urbanieries...
what do you mean the clerk called an dverified your copyright letter? didyou include it somehow to automatically pop up or something when they take it to WM or whatever?

urbanaries · July 17, 2008

I embed a copyright info text file on every disk I provide to clients with my contact info, the terms of the personal use release, and the specific names of the clients who have permissions to reprint.

Two instances with wedding clients over the last week:

Client 1 uploads photos to WM photo lab from home computer. Goes to pick them up. WM clerk says, I need to see copyright permissions as these are your wedding photos. Client says oh, that's on the disk at home. Lab says, well we need to see it before we print them. She goes home and gets it, prints it out, the lab calls me and asks me to verify it once she does bring it in.

Client 2 takes disc to kiosk at local photo lab. They ask her, are these your wedding photos? if so we need permission from the photographer. She says, the permission is in the disc. They say ok, cool, just what we needed, thanks.

YAY to the photo clerks, I thanked them both profusely for doing their job.

clap

cmorganphotography · July 17, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

I embed a copyright info text file on every disk I provide to clients with my contact info, the terms of the personal use release, and the specific names of the clients who have permissions to reprint.

Teach me this skill you must. Appreciative will I be.

urbanaries · July 17, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

Teach me this skill you must. Appreciative will I be.

You are a trip. So glad you joined us to spice our world up with your awesome personality. :tuesday

this is so simple its ridiculous. I used to include a signed letter, but clients would pitch it not thinking they needed it, then call me freaking out when they're at the counter and I don't have time to deal. So when I gather folders of images to put on the disc, I also create a plain text file (Using Notepad in Microsoft operating systems) called "COPYRIGHT READ ME". I simply drag this file on to the disc before burning.

Contains something like this:

All images copyright 2008 by xxxxx Photography, address phone number etc. A Personal Use release has been granted to John & Mary Smith for personal reprints. The images may not be copied, altered, distributed or sold in any fashion. This notice explicitly prohibits the commercial use or transfer of images. For any questions contact me at xxx-xxxx.

Hope this helps!

ChatKat · July 17, 2008

Not going to buy them
If you give them a CD they won't buy them when they can buy prints from your CD for $0.15 each or less.

Your price of $500 is extraordinarily low for wedding photography even for a shoot and burn.

Education of clients before an event will set you apart. Teach your clients why you are worth what you charge. Go over terms and conditions.

mercphoto · July 17, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

This phenomenon is not limited to cheap weddings either. I sold a $3000 wedding (coverage plus e-session, disc and albums) last December and they have not ordered one print from me....they waited until that CD came and trucked it on down to Wal-Mart.

I gotta ask though: if you are putting a CD in your package, why would you expect them to order any prints from you in the first place?

urbanaries · July 17, 2008

mercphoto wrote:

I gotta ask though: if you are putting a CD in your package, why would you expect them to order any prints from you in the first place?

Oh I don't expect them to, I guess I was making the indirect point that regardless of whether they spent $500 or $3000 on a wedding, folks will go with what's cheapest. Even though they spent all this money on my work, for the most part they aren't interested in spending an extra $20 for a professional print vs. a 29 cent Walmart one.

cmorganphotography · July 17, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

You are a trip. So glad you joined us to spice our world up with your awesome personality. :tuesday

All images copyright 2008 by Lynne Hulbert Photography, address phone number etc. A Personal Use release ...!

That's very kind of you. Thank you for saying so! I'm not always "on task" though... and I rhyme.

So the file is just on the cd with the prints, hanging out as a picture would, they aren't combined with the photos in anyway or "merged" might be the appropriate term. DOes this also keep friends/famly of the bride and groom from printing the photos? If it does *mental note* embed the crap out of next prints. It seems that the mutual personal use agreement as far as they are "personal" and you and I are "professional" they seem to get confused. If they make prints for their friends and family [let's face it, they do] they are violating the agreement, or am I off the rock completely?

I wasn't going to provide a cd but it seems to be the footnote of the times that *everybody* does. Do you have seperate charges? As in: cahrge for your time at the wedding a seperate charge for the cd?

"Allo Sue, I've got legs, d'you like... bread? :bread I've got a french loaf..." *hits her with it and runs away* "Goodbye!!! ... I love you!! ...":D

urbanaries · July 17, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

That's very kind of you. Thank you for saying so! I'm not always "on task" though... and I rhyme.
So the file is just on the cd with the prints, hanging out as a picture would, they aren't combined with the photos in anyway or "merged" might be the appropriate term. DOes this also keep friends/famly of the bride and groom from printing the photos? If it does *mental note* embed the crap out of next prints. It seems that the mutual personal use agreement as far as they are "personal" and you and I are "professional" they seem to get confused. If they make prints for their friends and family [let's face it, they do] they are violating the agreement, or am I off the rock completely?

I wasn't going to provide a cd but it seems to be the footnote of the times that *everybody* does. Do you have seperate charges? As in: cahrge for your time at the wedding a seperate charge for the cd?

"Allo Sue, I've got legs, d'you like... bread? :bread I've got a french loaf..." *hits her with it and runs away* "Goodbye!!! ... I love you!! ...":D

Nope doesn't keep the bride and groom from printing out pics for friends and family. But its a round robin concept. The time it takes me to take their Aunt Suzie's order (who, most likely, doesn't understand how to work the "internet" and I end up spending 40 min on the phone with), upload a replacement file and follow up with them....hey, if the Bride wants to take their orders and see what a PITA it is? More power to her. And for folks who copy entire DVDs (I always put them on DVDs vs. CDs)....that's their own ethical issue.

I have tried to go the "control my negs and sell the h### out of my prints" route...still do with portraits and guess what? People just DONT ORDER ONLINE. So until I commit to in person ordering sessions, printing proofs (actual, hard copy proofs with my logo on them that I have to beg back and use as a manipulation tool in exchange for an order and CC number)...I am happy to let go of the need to control print sales. Do I worry about the quality of photos they'll get? Yeah. Do they see when they book with me the print quality samples of my work? Yep. Do I present an example of the same file printed at WM vs. retouched by me and printed thru SM? Yep. Do clients by and large who ACTUALLY WANT 11x14s and up order them from me? Yep. Is the album they got from me printed with funky skin tones and too dark? Nope. So until the client is demanding great quality SMALL prints, I really don't have the time or patience to sell them on them. When it comes to a wedding, the flush mount album is the crowning jewel of my product line, and those things sell themselves.

People just don't love prints like they used to. They like digital files, and as long as I put a price on 'em.....they can have 'em.

cmorganphotography · July 17, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

People just DONT ORDER ONLINE.

So until I commit to in person ordering sessions, printing proofs (actual, hard copy proofs with my logo on them that I have to beg back and use as a manipulation tool in exchange for an order and CC number)...I am happy to let go of the need to control print sales.

When it comes to a wedding, the flush mount album is the crowning jewel of my product line, and those things sell themselves.

People just don't love prints like they used to. They like digital files, and as long as I put a price on 'em.....they can have 'em.

Amen, sister. Ordering off the internet is a foreign concept anyway. People don't quite get that you get normal looking-normal smelling prints off of the internet sales.............. but you know. *sigh*

That manipulation tool is a pretty nice trick. I'll have to give it a go at some point and record all my findings and touch base again and we'll compare notes. It's like science class!

This flush mount album is a print book, I take it? I get the feeling with current/modern photography it makes my wallet cry and never truly gets full again. :cry

Nikolai · July 17, 2008

Just to recap:
1) discuss everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) in advance;
2) get 50% retainer (non-refundable deposit) before you lock in the date.
3) request the rest to be paid before the actual shooting starts, or you simply won't shoot.
4) incorporate desired print sales into your price. This way you can simply give them the CD with printables and don't worry about if they print at Costco or WM. And if they do order from you - that will be a bonus.
Of course another way of doing this woul be NOT giving them a CD at all, just a bunch of 4x6, and then high-proof your online images, allowing no Larges. thus making sure that ANY printing will go from you. But I'd say that's not a preferred way, since they will conveniently forget that it was part of the agreement and start speading bad words about you that you didn't give them any pictures at all or a very small set...
5) $500 is *extremely low* for wedding...

cmorganphotography · July 17, 2008

Nikolai wrote:

Of course another way of doing this would be NOT giving them a CD at all, just a bunch of 4x6, and then high-proof your online images, allowing no Larges. thus making sure that ANY printing will go from you. But I'd say that's not a preferred way, since they will conveniently forget that it was part of the agreement and start speading bad words about you that you didn't give them any pictures at all or a very small set...
5) $500 is *extremely low* for wedding...

For me it was a for a friend. The photographer I plan to work with negotiates his rates, I think. Always includes a cd and miracuaously still gets prints. I think it's just because he's so casual about it... or he's using subliminal messages!! That must be it!
I have a few contracts and agreements from several people now and will crunch it all down so I get a fair medium that makes me [and my wallet] happy.
Sound advice is always a happy for me. I was really happy to get the 500 though... it paid for my sick week and various expenses-- like the business cards I handed out. Which begs another question how do you get it out there to the wedding guests your website, contact info on a massive scale?? DO you request to be in the wedding program or announced at the reception, what's your strategy?
I totally hijacked this thread. Sorry.:cry
What do you charge Nik?

achambers · July 17, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

Which begs another question how do you get it out there to the wedding guests your website, contact info on a massive scale?? DO you request to be in the wedding program or announced at the reception, what's your strategy?

First get really friendly with the DJ, then have him/her announce that photos will be available at xyz.com

(really tacky for a wedding). Maybe a card left on each table for people to see? You would go through quite a few cards though. Has anyone tried this, whats the rate of return if you have?

I do the DJ thing on a regular basis at events, it doesn't hurt to throw the DJ/announcer a piccie every once in a while either. At my regular Friday night event they bring it up several times a night. Who says bribery will get you nowhere.

Mulder32 · July 17, 2008

my 2 cents
I would not expect a single sale from a wedding through an online gallery. I get paid what I think is fair upfront, and if I get any print sales from the online gallery, it's gravy (or icing as another poster put it). Online sales for guests of the wedding are a great selling point for clients, but they pretty much never happen. I don't expect it, so then I'm not disappointed when they don't happen!

Nikolai · July 17, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

What do you charge Nik?

I wouldn't even bother below $1,800, unless it's like a quick ceremony-only non-processed web-res-only CD from a local church/temple within 2 miles of my house..

Again, my policy is to price it in a way that I don't have to count on ANYTHING else. If there are any extra sales later - good, that's a bonus, not - I'm already covered.

Hence I don't have to advertise myself. If B&G are happy they will do that job for free by sending every guest, friend and relative "hey look at out pics - and you can order them too!" email.

HTH

cmorganphotography · July 17, 2008

Nikolai wrote:

I wouldn't even bother below $1,800.

You live in So-cal. Cost of living is quite high.
Experiment:

Cost of living here is about:

$100 a week for groceries
$30 a week in gas
$700 a month in rent
$1,000 a month in mortgage payment

Trying to get a frame of reference. 500 wasn't much in your ballpark but it offset my expenses nicely and covered my butt in a jam, which would be buttjam. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that your cost of living will put my area to shame. Let's try it.

Nikolai · July 17, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

You live in So-cal. Cost of living is quite high.
Experiment:

Cost of living here is about:

$100 a week for groceries
$30 a week in gas
$700 a month in rent
$1,000 a month in mortgage payment

Trying to get a frame of reference. 500 wasn't much in your ballpark but it offset my expenses nicely and covered my butt in a jam, which would be buttjam. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that your cost of living will put my area to shame. Let's try it.

Yeah, I can see that, $500 kinda starting to make sense.
Here prices are about 200% of what you mentioned.

cmorganphotography · July 17, 2008

Nikolai wrote:

Yeah, I can see that, $500 kinda starting to make sense.
Here prices are about 200% of what you mentioned.

What really makes less sense is the change in cost of living as you travel toward and away from the college towns - which- let's face it, are the "cities" here. The wedding took place in a smaller town and they asked me to reduce my prices because I forgot their cost of living is roughly half of mine.
Is there a cahrt or rule of thumb in wedding negotiations or is it person by person budget risk?

mercphoto · July 17, 2008

cmorganphotography wrote:

What really makes less sense is the change in cost of living as you travel toward and away from the college towns - which- let's face it, are the "cities" here. The wedding took place in a smaller town and they asked me to reduce my prices because I forgot their cost of living is roughly half of mine.
Is there a cahrt or rule of thumb in wedding negotiations or is it person by person budget risk?

Their cost of living is meaningless, however, because what they pay you has to cover YOUR cost of living (as well as cost of business, etc.). Your mortgage payment doesn't drop just because you start taking jobs in neighboring towns where real estate prices are lower...

cmorganphotography · July 17, 2008

mercphoto wrote:

Their cost of living is meaningless, however, because what they pay you has to cover YOUR cost of living (as well as cost of business, etc.). Your mortgage payment doesn't drop just because you start taking jobs in neighboring towns where real estate prices are lower...

Omg. Duh. I got sweet talked. I've vowed to be a working guest at friends events but not a payed member. Money/contract stuff is too uncomfortable. Thanks for turning my head back around.

mbellot · July 17, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

People just don't love prints like they used to. They like digital files, and as long as I put a price on 'em.....they can have 'em.

Thats because until digital the only option was prints. Wedding photogs (mine included) would hang on to negatives for many years, giving you only one option if you wanted the image.

Unlike the music industry, wedding photogs don't have lobbyists that get laws enacted to keep outdated business practices profitable - they either adapt to the new trends or go out of business.

evoryware · July 18, 2008

You forgot a part of the cost of living. For here it's

$1,000 a month in frustration

thenimirra wrote:

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/ne_nau.gif" border="0" alt="" > I don't know what's going on. I haven't sold a single print from the wedding shots yet! The bride hasn't even paid me the $100 I charged her for a CD with 4X6 images on them. What gives and what can I do to get more sales? Someone suggested I only leave the galleries up on my website for a given period of time to force sales.
I still can't get over the father of the groom trying to give me less than what the contract was stated for, which was just a paltry $500. He told me someone else told him it would be only $400....that's not what the contract says that the bride signed. And he's the same one who wanted all the high res images on CD and then didn't respond when I told him how much it would cost for ALL the images (more than 600 high res images, $3000; or he could pick his favorite 25 for $150, favorite 50, etc. etc. instead of getting all of them on CD).

Remember our pm's? How long have they had access to the gallery? Since the beginning of June?
No gallery and no CD unless they pay. In house showing only. Honestly I just looked and if I really wanted, I could grab the originals right off your site! :nono
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/ne_nau.gif" border="0" alt="" >

mbellot wrote:

Thats because until digital the only option was prints. Wedding photogs (mine included) would hang on to negatives for many years, giving you only one option if you wanted the image.

Okay, but I'll add that
Raw files and jpg's are negatives that you take and make prints from.
If a pro wedding photog doesn't give out film negatives that same photog should NOT give out digital negatives. PERIOD!

Yes, I understand there are different markets and there are new photographers like some of us here (myself included) trying to break into a business, but it is a backwards hustling bad business sense to give away files. The reasons I constantly see for giving away files is either lack of confidence
1. in work quality
2. in ability to charge for prints
OR
they just don't want to be bothered with the printing process
where the easy money is.

There's more profit margin for you to make on relatively cheap lab prints and albums than there is on a relatively cheap CD with expensive negatives.

In fact, many professional wedding photog say that even though they shoot digital, there is no price or option for their files. They only sell prints or albums and they don't put up a web gallery until prints are purchased by the bride and mother of the bride. I've been to plenty workshops where this was mentioned. I remember seeing this lady at a workshop and asking the head photographer, Andy Marcus, if he sold digital files and then ask why he didn't. She just didn't get it and asked about 6 times. He said he works too hard to give away his work. Not to mention he can make upwards of $20,000 on print orders alone.
She showed up at another workshop asking the same friggin question. Different photog, same answer.

After I got married, they gave us all the 4 x 6 proofs that we paid for before we got married. And we were allowed to keep the proofs or get 150 prints and the album to arrange as we wished. We took 150 prints and the album.

I offer this link:
Photographer's Guide to Wedding Album Design and Sales By Bob Coates

P.S. - I think Urbanaries should be doing destination weddings and charging in excess of $5000 just to bring her camera gear on the trip! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/iloveyou.gif" border="0" alt="" >

P.S. 2 - (more than 600 high res images, $3000) < $5 per image

:

The Mack · July 18, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

I embed a copyright info text file on every disk I provide to clients with my contact info, the terms of the personal use release, and the specific names of the clients who have permissions to reprint.

Two instances with wedding clients over the last week:

Client 1 uploads photos to WM photo lab from home computer. Goes to pick them up. WM clerk says, I need to see copyright permissions as these are your wedding photos. Client says oh, that's on the disk at home. Lab says, well we need to see it before we print them. She goes home and gets it, prints it out, the lab calls me and asks me to verify it once she does bring it in.

Client 2 takes disc to kiosk at local photo lab. They ask her, are these your wedding photos? if so we need permission from the photographer. She says, the permission is in the disc. They say ok, cool, just what we needed, thanks.

YAY to the photo clerks, I thanked them both profusely for doing their job.clap

How would you go about doing that? I like the idea!~

achambers · July 18, 2008

The Mack wrote:

How would you go about doing that? I like the idea!~

I do it also, all you do is put a plain text (notepad)(*.txt) file on the CD when you burn it. I usually use two files !Copyright.txt and !License.txt. By putting the exclamation point at the start of the file name you do two things, tell people this is an important file and make it first when sorted alphabetically. My copyright file is generic, the license file is specific and spells out what can be done with the images.

Nikolai · July 18, 2008

achambers wrote:

I do it also, all you do is put a plain text (notepad)(*.txt) file on the CD when you burn it. I usually use two files !Copyright.txt and !License.txt. By putting the exclamation point at the start of the file name you do two things, tell people this is an important file and make it first when sorted alphabetically. My copyright file is generic, the license file is specific and spells out what can be done with the images.

I don't want to sound like a party pooper here, but as one old russian saying goes, "the locks can only keep honest people away". I mean, how much efforts does it take to make a copy of the original CD and "forget" to copy license/copyright files onto it?

no print sales from the wedding yet!?

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