Hi all,

I am heading to India next week and would really like to take some sots of the poverty/poor in the city.

I was after some advice on how to do it. Should I ask permission (maybe losing the 'moment'), offer some money, give some food, do nothing, what...

What are the thoughts out there? I would appreciate your ideas.

Thanks

Originally Posted by christulk Hi all, I am heading to India next week and would really like to take some sots of the poverty/poor in the city. I was after some advice on how to do it. Should I ask permission (maybe losing the 'moment'), offer some money, give some food, do nothing, what... What are the thoughts out there? I would appreciate your ideas. Thanks

I should preface this to say I have never been to India, so my comments are solely based on occasional US & UK street photography.

If its a fleeting moment on the "street", by all means, take the shot. In fact if you're only taking a quick shot, in general, don't stop to ask. If you want to use someone more as a subject, with multiple shots, I do think engagement is called for.

In any case, if they are needy and you on the other hand are relatively affluent, then a tip or donation is definitely appropriate, in my opinion. I'm just talking about the kind of donation that corresponds to a normal street donation in the less intrusive photo moment, but something a little more (but still in scale with a normal street donation) than that if you do more of a shoot session -- it's only fair.

Hi Chris- I hope you enjoy your time in India. You're in for an experience like no other place. Until you've been there it's hard to explain. India is right in your face every moment. I have spent much of the past 20 years living and traveling in India and all of Asia. The photo opportunities are immense. I would suggest that you think more about your photography there as an opportunity to document the real everyday lives of the people there instead of just focusing on the "poverty" aspect. Remember, they are not animals in a zoo, there just for the casual amusement of foreign travelers. People anywhere want to be treated with dignity and get a sense that you are respectful of their lives. Most of the time a warm smile and a sense of humility will be your best asset. In general, unless you ask someone to pose or do something special for you, I wouldn't advise giving money. It sets a very bad precedent for other photogrpahers that come along after you and is just not a good idea. Even in India, the streets and countryside are free and open for the creative expression of a photographer. DOn't feel pressured to give money just because you're carrying a camera and you're doing something that you enjoy. If someone resists your advances to photograph them, just smile and walk away. I have seen some very remote and untouched places become totally ruined for photography after several years of "well meaning" tourists paying local kids and adults for their touristy snapshots. It can make for very obnoxious kids. In most cases, unless you ask someone to do a particular thing for you, don't feel obligated to pay them. On the other hand, sometimes because of circumstances or a personal connection, you just want to help someone out. But that's something that you decide. If you have the time, take a look at some of my galleries. Maybe you'll get some good ideas. Have a good trip and let me know how it turns out.

Bill

Bill, 1Pocket, Thanks for your advice. I always find it difficult to decide on the right approach. I generally smile, point to my camera and then to them - sometimes I'm allowed, sometimes I'm not. Thanks for giving me your points of view.

Originally Posted by endsoftheearth I would suggest that you think more about your photography there as an opportunity to document the real everyday lives of the people there instead of just focusing on the "poverty" aspect. Remember, they are not animals in a zoo, there just for the casual amusement of foreign travelers. People anywhere want to be treated with dignity and get a sense that you are respectful of their lives.

I like the idea of ducumenting thier lives - will give it a try and hopefully get some ok shots. I'm only going to Mumbai for a few days and then home. I'll post the results.

Thanks again for you advice.

you could attend a few political marches, people are more open to letting anyone photograph or videotape them in those situations

I must warn you though, sometimes it does get a little rough

I find Westerners very precious when it comes to their own sources of income. Protecting and enhancing our personal sources of income are perhaps the major demands we make on our governments. A lot of our countries' legislation and regulations are directed towards those goals. We enact an immensely significant adversarial ritual with the taxation office. We also have instituted very large and powerful organisations for similar reasons, eg the trades unions.

However, in the same breath some of us describe income opportunities afforded to disadvantaged citizens of developing countries - I mean the opportunities to get at desperately needed cash sources offered by the presence of cruising affluent foreign visitors on their ground - as optional, and moreover, at the sole discretion of those visitors. This to me is offensive.

The need of disadvantaged persons of some of my money has greater integrity, I believe, and therefore has a greater implication for my behavior, than my need for "unspoiled" photographic subjects. If the consequence for us is more demanding, less subservient and better-off locals, then that is progress, in my opinion.

I have traveled and taken photographs in many parts of Africa and Asia, including India and Sri Lanka. I have found that the people who I have photographed have only become REAL PEOPLE, to me and to THEMSELVES, when I have first acknowledged their rights to income opportunities to be equal to mine, whatever the actual size of our incomes.

I have taken candid snaps everywhere I go (until just recently, I was using just a nice compact, and with only very amateurish skills), but whenever I have wanted more controlled shots I have always negotiated with the person. Usually, I have started a relationship with them with their needs and mine as the basis, and these relationships in some cases have transcended those needs and the photographic moment, so that now I have lines of attachment of various degrees of strength and completeness connecting me to several people around the world. I have got more than just photographs from using my camera.

I have found that such an attitude is an antidote to "Westernermorphism", and has helped temper in me the indiscriminate snapping frenzy which makes tourists look so disconnected (and ridiculous and pitiful) from the common human lot we all in fact share. In today's world, scratch the surface, the photograph, of the "exotic" and you will find suffering, want, frustration. Through your visit and your photographs you can give some ease.

None of us needs to be "documented".

Awais's "Her Dream in Her Hand" says all this.

Neil

Originally Posted by NeilL I have started a relationship with them with their needs and mine as the basis, and these relationships in some cases have transcended those needs and the photographic moment, so that now I have lines of attachment of various degrees of strength and completeness connecting me to several people around the world. I have got more than just photographs from using my camera.

Poetic and relevant words, Neil.
Her Dream in Her Hand could also be named, ask not what they can do for you, but what you can do for them.

What i have analyzed poor people are always willing to be photographed. They always perceive it as bad days are soon to end.
As this is my favourit subject i cannot do more then upload to smugmug so i promote those photos a lot.

I pay to children or deserving people. You may found many begging just to get alcohal or drugs.

It is possible that you may find habitual people of begging you have to see yourself.

It may disturb you.
thanks happy shooting do share your photos and experience i also agree to shoot everything rather then focusing on poverty

About asking about photos
it depends just point camera towards the person if he has no issue he will not say or do something if he dont want to be photographed he will wave hand in disaggreement don't know whats fashion in India but it is what Happens in Pakistan

Originally Posted by NeilL I find Westerners very precious when it comes to their own sources of income. Protecting and enhancing our personal sources of income are perhaps the major demands we make on our governments. A lot of our countries' legislation and regulations are directed towards those goals. We enact an immensely significant adversarial ritual with the taxation office. We also have instituted very large and powerful organisations for similar reasons, eg the trades unions. However, in the same breath some of us describe income opportunities afforded to disadvantaged citizens of developing countries - I mean the opportunities to get at desperately needed cash sources offered by the presence of cruising affluent foreign visitors on their ground - as optional, and moreover, at the sole discretion of those visitors. This to me is offensive. The need of disadvantaged persons of some of my money has greater integrity, I believe, and therefore has a greater implication for my behavior, than my need for "unspoiled" photographic subjects. If the consequence for us is more demanding, less subservient and better-off locals, then that is progress, in my opinion. I have traveled and taken photographs in many parts of Africa and Asia, including India and Sri Lanka. I have found that the people who I have photographed have only become REAL PEOPLE, to me and to THEMSELVES, when I have first acknowledged their rights to income opportunities to be equal to mine, whatever the actual size of our incomes. I have taken candid snaps everywhere I go (until just recently, I was using just a nice compact, and with only very amateurish skills), but whenever I have wanted more controlled shots I have always negotiated with the person. Usually, I have started a relationship with them with their needs and mine as the basis, and these relationships in some cases have transcended those needs and the photographic moment, so that now I have lines of attachment of various degrees of strength and completeness connecting me to several people around the world. I have got more than just photographs from using my camera. I have found that such an attitude is an antidote to "Westernermorphism", and has helped temper in me the indiscriminate snapping frenzy which makes tourists look so disconnected (and ridiculous and pitiful) from the common human lot we all in fact share. In today's world, scratch the surface, the photograph, of the "exotic" and you will find suffering, want, frustration. Through your visit and your photographs you can give some ease. None of us needs to be "documented". Awais's "Her Dream in Her Hand" says all this. Neil

This is one of the most insulting and pretentious message I have read. If the governments of these people protected their interests instead of exploiting them, they would be in better shape.

At the end of the day, they are still poor and you get to go back home. I would respect your post much more if you sold your camera, took the money it cost to travel to that location to go photograph the person and send it to a charity that actually helps that person. Then, take the amount you "paid" them and go buy yourself a coke for a job well done.

There is a big difference between so called "disadvantaged" and simple living. I know and have met people all over the world who are let's just say "less affluent" and live very simple lives with meager financial holdings. They also hold onto their dignity and do not become beggars just because a visitor from another place "might" have more money than them. As a traveler in distant places, you are not under some kind of moral obligation to make judgements and assume that other need or want your help. I happen to live in an area where many thousands of foreign tourists visit at all times of the year. There are also many local homeless or disadvantaged peole around, and I don't see any of them begging for handouts from visiting foreigners or asking for money if a camera happened to be pointed their way. In this modern world foreign travel is becoming accesible to all countries, and I don't think anyone should feel obligated to pay their way through a place just to take a few photos.

Originally Posted by endsoftheearth There is a big difference between so called "disadvantaged" and simple living. I know and have met people all over the world who are let's just say "less affluent" and live very simple lives with meager financial holdings. They also hold onto their dignity and do not become beggars just because a visitor from another place "might" have more money than them. As a traveler in distant places, you are not under some kind of moral obligation to make judgements and assume that other need or want your help. I happen to live in an area where many thousands of foreign tourists visit at all times of the year. There are also many local homeless or disadvantaged peole around, and I don't see any of them begging for handouts from visiting foreigners or asking for money if a camera happened to be pointed their way. In this modern world foreign travel is becoming accesible to all countries, and I don't think anyone should feel obligated to pay their way through a place just to take a few photos.

But i feel uncomfortable that i am shooting (for my pleasure) and i am not considering their banefit, hence i do what ever i can do.

So where do we draw the line?

If you come to my country and I suspect that you make $1,000 more a year than me, do I have the "right" to beg for money from you for taking a photo of me? Do you feel an obligation to pay me for your photos of me?

Long and short: ethical travel is very difficult. When I am traveling I am always confronted by these challenges, and perhaps only time will tell what the right or wrong choices are/were.

VI

Originally Posted by Awais Yaqub But i feel uncomfortable that i am shooting (for my pleasure) and i am not considering their banefit, hence i do what ever i can do.

I can understand the motivation and if you feel moved to help, that's great. In the end, it doesn't change their situation. We don't know the history or the circumstances. I am not saying it's wrong to help out, but there are greater issues at hand besides western governments. Sometimes it's not our fault.

Feeling guilty is a natural feeling, but it doesn't translate in helping the person out. If helping out is done to alleviate guilt, then it's a selfish motive. I am not against having compassion or helping out when their is a need. However, there are bigger issues when their is perpetual poverty and a small payment for taking a photograph doesn't break the cycle.

Originally Posted by endsoftheearth There is a big difference between so called "disadvantaged" and simple living. I know and have met people all over the world who are let's just say "less affluent" and live very simple lives with meager financial holdings.

Do these people choose their way of life or are they locked into it and would change it if they could?

If you have the luxury and power of options in the way you live your life you need no one. If you don't, you might very well need all the help you can beg, borrow or steal to get more options!

Originally Posted by jonh68 This is one of the most insulting and pretentious message I have read. If the governments of these people protected their interests instead of exploiting them, they would be in better shape. At the end of the day, they are still poor and you get to go back home. I would respect your post much more if you sold your camera, took the money it cost to travel to that location to go photograph the person and send it to a charity that actually helps that person. Then, take the amount you "paid" them and go buy yourself a coke for a job well done.

You make a good point! (If you can take a little seeming paternalism from me, along with the insult and pretentiousness! LOL)

What we can actually do about governments is perhaps more limited than you or I dare to confront. In some countries, you bare your throat to the executioner’s knife (in some form or other) by exercising what is above it, your mind and your mouth, in the government’s direction. Contrariwise, should your stomach be starved because you keep your mouth closed?

Like governments, economies too have us in thrall. The system that we have at the moment works by recycling income. Whether this is done in our home country or somewhere else, the economy is sustained and the knock-on benefits of our individual spending are far reaching. So traveling, owning a camera etc benefit not only me, but the economy and consequently people generally. As disadvantaged people improve their position in their economies, they too spend more on themselves, and the economy and their position in it is further strengthened. If you do travel in the third world you will clearly see how tourism increases opportunities for a great many people to raise their income. Lots of tourists are also lots of attention on the government, and this might lead to a political improvement for the citizens, something you seem to think is necessary.

However, what I said in my previous post belongs at a more personal level. I distrust organisations taking money to help “someone”, “somewhere”, “sometime”. Whenever I have traveled in developing countries I have been struck by the ability of people to get what they need from each other directly. The meeting of need and responsibility at this direct and personal level seems to me to be a different kind of operation. It’s a “hidden” economy, and for the people involved it is the most important. Generosity and self-sacrifice, and other humane virtues are part of it in a way and to a degree they are not in the formal economy, and people are much more interconnected in personally significant networks.

I choose relationships with people at this level when I travel (rather than a go-between organisation back home), where we deal with each other directly. They like it too because they see that they are contributing to me and how I value that. In your part of the world it might also be considered part of neighborliness. Do you really mean you prefer to give help to your neighbor through a go-between charity and not have any reciprocal relationship with them? It seems to me to be a shadow of what it means to live “socially”.

So, I am talking about on-the-ground economic transactions around wanting photographs and providing that service, which are small, limited and episodic, but are meaningful and significant in my and their economic and social context.

You mention buying a coke. That too is a small, limited and episodic economic transaction which benefits both you and the manufacturer-retailer. Do you have a problem with that as well? You will get in trouble if you steal a coke, remember. How insignificant then is the cost? Where people are involved, nothing is truly free. Enough of these transactions and their value is life-changing (and the basis on a corporate scale of a multinational enterprise).

You, of course, do not have information about the cost to me of such transactions with people when I travel, so I am puzzled why you put it at the cost of a coke? Were you attempting a joke? If I go to the trouble that I have described, do you really wish to persist with the suggestion that the amount I pay is meaningless to me? Even so, if your boss took from your salary the equivalent of the cost of your year’s supply of coke would you feel nothing? Or, to put it another way, if your boss offered to supply you with coke for free would you say no? And would you be BEGGING if you accepted?

Some people do in fact live on the cost of a bottle of coke a day. I guess that, taking your lead, I could suggest to you that you give what you spend on coke a year to someone who gives you photos that you value next time you are in their country. I think it could make a difference to you both! (If the person were on the same or higher socioeconomic level than you they would naturally refuse, unless it was their job - you would recognise that it was their job and respect that, I'm sure, and pay what they charged. If the person were lower they would not refuse, I think. Yet you would apparently not consider that it might be a kind of "job" also in their case - WHY would you not?.)

So Bill, what would the Dalai Lama say about this? ;-)

Looks like a great book by the way, going to get one, and glad you are here! :))

Originally Posted by endsoftheearth There is a big difference between so called "disadvantaged" and simple living. I know and have met people all over the world who are let's just say "less affluent" and live very simple lives with meager financial holdings. They also hold onto their dignity and do not become beggars just because a visitor from another place "might" have more money than them. As a traveler in distant places, you are not under some kind of moral obligation to make judgements and assume that other need or want your help. I happen to live in an area where many thousands of foreign tourists visit at all times of the year. There are also many local homeless or disadvantaged peole around, and I don't see any of them begging for handouts from visiting foreigners or asking for money if a camera happened to be pointed their way. In this modern world foreign travel is becoming accesible to all countries, and I don't think anyone should feel obligated to pay their way through a place just to take a few photos.

I choose relationships with people at this level when I travel (rather than a go-between organisation back home), where we deal with each other directly. They like it too because they see that they are contributing to me and how I value that. In your part of the world it might also be considered part of neighborliness. Do you really mean you prefer to give help to your neighbor through a go-between charity and not have any reciprocal relationship with them? It seems to me to be a shadow of what it means to live “socially”.

Neighbor is someone who lives next you, not a philosophical neighbor of the world. Of course you should have direct contact.

If I misunderstood your original post, then I apologize. It sounded like a rant on western culture. However, I am through with this thread as these philosophical discussions of "what is the value of a coke" can go on and on.

My advice would be to make sure you have a good zoom lens so to be less intrusive. I think this is a very touchy subject. If someone lets you know they don't want their picture taken then respect that. Other than that I would say you are ok to take pictures. If you feel encouraged to give someone something then so be it. I'm sure once you get there and get a feel for the environment you will have a better understanding of how to act.