Glacier Shootout - woulda shoulda -if only-

stuffjunkie · October 4, 2007

I wasn't there , except in spirit of course. I did spend the last few months reading about the run up to the '07 shootout. Lots of questions got asked & answered. I'm sure everyone learned something during the trip. Now's the time to debrief. From the guy who wants to go next year...I wanna know:

1) What would you bring next time, that you didn't this time? (a second body, different clothes, food, )

2)How would you prepare differently? (zen meditation, pushups)

3)What did you learn or value most from the trip?

4) If you've been at this multi-day photo trip thing for a while and have it all dialed in....how do you prepare/pack that makes all the difference.

Thanks!

David_S85 · October 5, 2007

stuffjunkie wrote:

I wasn't there , except in spirit of course. I did spend the last few months reading about the run up to the '07 shootout. Lots of questions got asked & answered. I'm sure everyone learned something during the trip. Now's the time to debrief. From the guy who wants to go next year...I wanna know:

1) What would you bring next time, that you didn't this time? (a second body, different clothes, food, )

2)How would you prepare differently? (zen meditation, pushups)

3)What did you learn or value most from the trip?

4) If you've been at this multi-day photo trip thing for a while and have it all dialed in....how do you prepare/pack that makes all the difference.

Thanks!

Hi SJ,

1) Yes, a second body. One with a landscape wide and another with a tele attached for people and wildlife mostly. Otherwise you'll be swapping lenses every 5 minutes like I did, and that's no fun. My one and only body almost gave up the ghost on this trip, so even for a spare I would have another body handy.

Sensor and camera cleaning kit is a must.

Don't forget the lens hoods, polarizer and other filters (graduated ND optional but suggested for Moab and vicinity - dark red rocks, strong shadows and very bright skies). Sunglasses - bring those!

A way of carrying water while hiking is necessary, like a Camelback

bladder.

Tripod. Remote or wired trigger. Heck, just bring all your important gear.

Sun hat or similar to keep the sun at bay. Very important there.

2) Pushups might help for the hiking with tripod and backpack, but just being in shape (like riding a bike regularly

or something like that) would help a great deal. The schedule and hiking can be exhausting. Zen can be a good idea maybe pre-trip, but you could also just go bike riding to clear your head before you leave.

3) Sleep. Get as much as you can. There won't be much of it on the Shootout.

The people on the trip and the experiences they bring with them is what you return with besides your own pictures. Marc, Dave Porter and Andy are valuable assets on a workshop/shootout such as these these. Do ask them questions. That's why they're there.

4) Have a bulletproof backup strategy in place to secure your images while you're there. A lot of it you'll just figure out while you're there. The Shootout just "happens" when you get there, so you can study up all you want, and that's all good, but the lemming mentality takes over when you arrive, so don't spend too much time over-thinking the details.

Laptop with CS3, card reader and USB dongle. Bring them if you got them. The USB dongle thingy is for shot critiques by Marc and others.

greenpea · October 5, 2007

stuffjunkie wrote:

1) What would you bring next time, that you didn't this time? (a second body, different clothes, food, )

Definately a second body, my single body died on day 3. I would also bring a lot of graduated ND filters (see devbobo's amazing pics).

2)How would you prepare differently? (zen meditation, pushups)

I wish I had taken more naps when I had the opportunity, bye the time of Marc's evening workshop I was doing everything I could to keep my eyes open. Oh, and buy the beer at a grocery store not at the lodge.

3)What did you learn or value most from the trip?

That I've got a lot to learn.

4) If you've been at this multi-day photo trip thing for a while and have it all dialed in....how do you prepare/pack that makes all the difference.

Bring less unnecessary stuff. You need your camera equiptment of course (with extra batteries and memory card), but you don't need every single lens, filter, and accessory for every day and every hike. I was a lot more comfortable hiking when I brought just what I knew I would need. And what I didn't have I could usually borrow.

schmoo · October 5, 2007

Off the top of my head, the #1 thing I wish I had done differently was schedule an extra day before and afterwards for travel. Shay gave this advice and I didn't do this and it bit me in the arse. Hard.

With flights getting even more unreliable each passing month it's the best thing you can do for yourself. And if your travel plans don't go awry then you have an extra day to unwind, unpack or process photos.

DougNorCal · October 8, 2007

stuffjunkie wrote:

What would you bring next time, that you didn't this time? (a second body, different clothes, food, )

I had a second body and, as mentioned by David_S85, I put the long lens on the 40D and used the wider (16-36 and 24-105) on the Mark III. Was awesome, but at times wish I had a 3rd body 'cause I swapped more than I wanted.

I would also bring another polarizer and more ND. Haven't tried the graduated ND, but probably should.

I was totally freaked out about the cold and brought a bunch of stuff that I never used. Need to go through the packing list and toss stuff. Of course Moab is different from Glacier. Wonder if I really need the 400mm lens there.

How would you prepare differently? (zen meditation, pushups)

I said for months I was going to get into better shape, but kept putting it off and in fact threw out my back on Sunday night, the day before I flew to Kalispell. :help Almost didn't make the trip. Already started doing more walking and back strengthening exercises for next year and will keep that up.

What did you learn or value most from the trip?

This was my first shootout or workshop of any kind and I learned that it totally rocked and I totally want to do it some more. It is really hard to find the time to process the pictures.

gluwater · October 8, 2007

greenpea wrote:

Bring less unnecessary stuff. You need your camera equiptment of course (with extra batteries and memory card), but you don't need every single lens, filter, and accessory for every day and every hike.

I'll second that. I probably had one of the heavier bags on the trip. When we did the long hike that was only 8 miles my pack weighed in at roughly 30-35lbs. That includes three bodies, 5 lenses, tripod(lightweight CF), head, pano gear, extra batteries, filters, water, snacks, odds and ends. It was pretty rough going for a while. Zooms come in really handy when hiking and trying to pack light. 35lbs might not seam like that much weight but try hiking at high altitude and at steep inclines and you'll think differently.

stuffjunkie · October 8, 2007

DougNorCal wrote:

I

I would also bring another polarizer and more ND. Haven't tried the graduated ND, but probably should.

Great info! Reading the post from people traveling to Glacier I recall a ND search thread. I already decided I needed to learn more about ND/GRAD filters. A bunch (all?) of the landscape web sites talk on and on about them. I guess that's hint.

stuffjunkie · October 8, 2007

gluwater wrote:

I'll second that. I probably had one of the heavier bags on the trip. When we did the long hike that was only 8 miles my pack weighed in at roughly 30-35lbs. That includes three bodies, 5 lenses, tripod(lightweight CF), head, pano gear, extra batteries, filters, water, snacks, odds and ends. It was pretty rough going for a while. Zooms come in really handy when hiking and trying to pack light. 35lbs might not seam like that much weight but try hiking at high altitude and at steep inclines and you'll think differently.

I can see from the posted pics that some of you were loaded down pretty good. I'll have to watch that as..that would be me! At least you had the CF tripod.

pathfinder · October 8, 2007

One of the reasons I drive to the workshops, rather than fly, is the amount of unnecesary stuff I end up bringing for me and Nightingale

And I really enjoy the road trip, seeing and shooting interesting stuff along the way.

If I were to fly, I would bring two bodies, a 5D with a 24- 105 L, and a 40D, witha 70-200 F4 L IS ( as I shoot whitelenses). I would also try to include either the 24 TS or the 45 TS. A 77mm Circular polarizer would fit all these, - might need a 72-77mm filter adapter to be sure. One 4x6 Grad ND to be hand held should work fine - 2 stops or 3 stops - you'll find folks arguing each way. Dev will have 5 or 6 of them probably. (I was intrigued that Marc rarely uses GNDs, even shooting directly into the setting sun.)
A good tripod with ball and pano head. That would cover 95% of everything I shot. (With the pano bracket, 24mm on a full frame is wide enough - on a 40D I would use the 10-22 or the 16-35 as a substitute for the 5D.) Don't forget batteries, chargers, extra Compact Flash. A short extension cord can be a very nice thing to have also for those motel rooms that only have one plug, way behind the bedstead. DAMHIK!! A small, low powered 12V to AC adapter to allow charging batteries and cell phones in your rental car is nice to have as well.

I bring a laptop, but they are heavy, and if I were to fly, I would consider a portable hard drive, like the Epson, or the Canon that Skippy brought, or others, as necessary, and smaller, cheaper and lighter than a laptop.

A good, small P&S is great thing to bring as well. You can always have it in your pocket for those quick grab shots.

Bring good, comfortable, well broken in hiking boots or shoes, and a pair of sandals for when the hiking is over. Wool socks - several pair. Fleece garments and water proof shells. I prefer Smart Wool under garments like turtle neck shirts, in stead of poly pro or whatever is in vogue this season. I do like poly pro glove liners unless it is really cold, and then I go to fleece gloves. I only wear heavier gloves ( than fleece ) in blizzzard conditions.

I carry a case ( 24 bottles ) of bottled water with me in my vehicle at all times in the desert or the wilderness. Or a couple of gallons jugs of tap water. Maybe a case of beer in a dry county, like many in Utah.

Bring a hat with a good brim - they will keep the sun off your ears, and make good flare barn doors to keep the sun out of your lenses, as well.

I carry small, delicate items like P&S, light meters, cell phone, Epson hard drives, etc in small 2 x3, or 4x5 fleece drawstring pouches that I purchase from Aerostich. They are soft, and protect from scratches when stuffed into my duffle with along everything else. Motorcycle riders have used them for this purpose for years - Aerostitch is the only vendor I know of, but a good seamstress could make them more cheaply. Bring several microfibre cloths for cleaning cameras, glasses, lenses, etc. I buy them in the large bags from Sam's.

I would do some hiking before the trip and try do some early sunrise shooting at home first also - It is always fun to see how much harder things are in the dark on side of a hill in the wind, than they are sitting at your desk in a nice warm home.

Bring a few new ideas along with you to try out. Plan for them in advance and then give them a try.

stuffjunkie · October 8, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

One of the reasons I drive to the workshops, rather than fly, is the amount of unnecesary stuff I end up bringing for me and Nightingale And I really enjoy the road trip, seeing and shooting interesting stuff along the way.

I carry small, delicate items like P&S, light meters, cell phone, Epson hard drives, etc in small 2 x3, or 4x5 fleece drawstring pouches that I purchase from Aerostich.

Bring a few new ideas along with you to try out. Plan for them in advance and then give them a try.

I was fortunate to get a spot for the '08 shootout. (sure glad I sat down at the computer before work) I plan to drive out at this point for most of your reasons. I, of course, don't have to carry Nightingale.

I'm already looking forward to the trip out/back and the stuff to do along the way. Plus my previous experience in flying into Grand Junction thru Denver makes driving attractive.

Ooooh, I like the Aerotech pouches. Nice Tip!

I have a lot to learn and much to practice on before NEXT October. I may seek out a workshop before then, otherwise the pent up excitement might make me explode!

ian408 · October 8, 2007

Never listen to Andy when he says "hey could you bring..."

Phyxius · October 8, 2007

stuffjunkie wrote:

I can see from the posted pics that some of you were loaded down pretty good. I'll have to watch that as..that would be me! At least you had the CF tripod.

But it's a HUGE CF tripod and weighed a good bit more than my smaller, cheaper aluminium one. My bag weighed less, I had two bodies, four lenses, four batteries, assorted filters (most of which I didn't use, but I loved the grad ND)!

On days when I didn't think we'd be shooting waterfalls or that I knew we'd be hiking long distances (like the hike to Grinell) I just carried a body with the 12-24 and a body with the 70-200 f2.8 VR. I had a water bottle holder that I clipped onto a belt loop.

1) What would you bring next time, that you didn't this time?

I would have liked a longer lens for the wildlife. Sometimes 200mm just isn't enough. I'm not sure that'll be a problem in Moab, so maybe I'll invest in more filters.

2)How would you prepare differently?

I said I was going to hike more BEFORE the trip since I was worried about the altitude (I live in a coastal area, on a penisula so I'm basically at sea level. Maryland calls 2500'+ a mountain

) But, did I? Not nearly as much as a I should have. Live is just too busy and I try to juggle too much. 'Course my neighborhood is safe enough that I could go walking at night as opposed to hanging out on here. :heh

3)What did you learn or value most from the trip?

That ND and Grad ND filters are essential.

Okay maybe not ESSENTIAL, but darn helpful. But, seriously I think I valued most the friendships. There were some really wonderful people on the trip. You can learn so much just by talking with them. I loved the photoshop sessions and I need to develop some sort of short hand so I can take notes next time!

4) If you've been at this multi-day photo trip thing for a while and have it all dialed in....how do you prepare/pack that makes all the difference.

This was my first shootout with dgrin, but I had done multi day trips before. I generally try to pack 2 more of most things than I really need. Extra socks are important when you're hiking. And just and extra set of clothes in general. Since the weather in Canada (preshootout) and Montana was so different from the weather I was and am having at home I packed a range of things, knowing I was going to layer. (Temps went below freezing a couple times w/snow a couple days. Low, low humidity. @ home it reached 91 (31 C) today, with high humidity.)

gluwater · October 9, 2007

Phyxius wrote:

But it's a HUGE CF tripod and weighed a good bit more than my smaller, cheaper aluminum one. My bag weighed less, I had two bodies, four lenses, four batteries, assorted filters (most of which I didn't use, but I loved the grad ND)!

I still think you were mistaken Christine. My tripod with head only weighs 4.36 lbs. It's one of the smallest tripods that can hold over 20lbs. As for the grad ND's, I was the only one to have one on the pre-shootout and before we had arrived at Glacier the other three in the group had either bought one or had them on order to arrive in Glacier. They are not always necessary but are a welcome addition that don't take up that much space.

Phyxius · October 9, 2007

gluwater wrote:

I still think you were mistaken Christine. My tripod with head only weighs 4.36 lbs. It's one of the smallest tripods that can hold over 20lbs. As for the grad ND's, I was the only one to have one on the pre-shootout and before we had arrived at Glacier the other three in the group had either bought one or had them on order to arrive in Glacier. They are not always necessary but are a welcome addition that don't take up that much space.

Hmmm, maybe it was skippy's or ann's tripod that weighed a ton, but I know that one of those big honkers was expensive.

Oh and Grad ND aren't essential but it's much more fun than braketing and blending. Especially when you're trying to do panos.

It was using yours at Lake Louise that made me want one. I wish I had it for that sunrise at Waterton. I can't wait to see what you and Ann got that morning.

Now I have to go home and weigh my tripod and camera bag.

grimace · October 10, 2007

gluwater wrote:

I'll second that. I probably had one of the heavier bags on the trip. When we did the long hike that was only 8 miles my pack weighed in at roughly 30-35lbs. That includes three bodies, 5 lenses, tripod(lightweight CF), head, pano gear, extra batteries, filters, water, snacks, odds and ends. It was pretty rough going for a while. Zooms come in really handy when hiking and trying to pack light. 35lbs might not seam like that much weight but try hiking at high altitude and at steep inclines and you'll think differently.

No wonder it took you so long to catch up with us.:D

Sounds like you had everything in the bag except the gnome from the Travelocity ads.

ChrisP6 · October 13, 2007

stuffjunkie wrote:

I wasn't there , except in spirit of course. I did spend the last few months reading about the run up to the '07 shootout. Lots of questions got asked & answered. I'm sure everyone learned something during the trip. Now's the time to debrief. From the guy who wants to go next year...I wanna know:
1) What would you bring next time, that you didn't this time? (a second body, different clothes, food, )

I noticed that it's hard (at least for me) to do everything well at once, so I'd either commit to focusing on landscapes, and bring some pano-gear and possibly a TS lens OR focus on wildlife, and bring some really long glass like a 500mm or 600mm. More than likely, I'll go the landscapes route.

2)How would you prepare differently? (zen meditation, pushups)

I didn't find it that physically demanding, but I walk and ride my bike regularly. The biggest thing I'd do to prepare is probably read up-on landscape photography, or look at several other people's work to get motivated and creatively inspired before heading out.

3)What did you learn or value most from the trip?

It's an old lesson, but photography is like anything else that takes skill. The more you practice, the more you learn from those around you, the more you share and collaborate, the better you get, and you're never "done" getting better. I thought the pros, and attendees (many pros themselves) made it a fantastic learning opportunity. The sooner you start talking with other people, asking questions, and sharing your work, the more you'll get out of the trip.

4) If you've been at this multi-day photo trip thing for a while and have it all dialed in....how do you prepare/pack that makes all the difference.

This may change based on the kind of photography you're doing, but I thought the "nested-Russian-doll" model worked well for us. Basically, we used the big ThinkTank cases to get the majority of our gear there, and then used them to get the gear back and forth from the car everyday. The cases lock in the room, so it feels somewhat secure, and you don't end up worrying about stuff in the car overnight. The "nested-Russian-doll" part is that I also brought a daypack, and fanny-pack that I could schlep when we hiked. The CF tripod plus Acratech Gimbal ballhead were fantastic both for hiking and car stops. I'm sure there are lots of other ways to go, but this worked very well for me.

Oh yeah, in terms of lenses and bodieas, I'll probably do much the same next time as this -- 12-24mm Sigma, 24-105 Canon L, 120-300mm F2.8 Sigma, two bodies (but next time, one will be a full-frame sensor).

Thanks!

stuffjunkie · October 13, 2007

ChrisP6 wrote:

I didn't find it that physically demanding, but I walk and ride my bike regularly. The biggest thing I'd do to prepare is probably read up-on landscape photography, or look at several other people's work to get motivated and creatively inspired before heading out.

I was pretty excited seeing what was posted from Glacier '07. I do need to get out there and shoot more. We're not quite to peak colors here in NE Illinois, maybe in a week. Oh, and a few trips to the book store sounds good too.

This may change based on the kind of photography you're doing, but I thought the "nested-Russian-doll" model worked well for us. Basically, we used the big ThinkTank cases to get the majority of our gear there, and then used them to get the gear back and forth from the car everyday. The cases lock in the room, so it feels somewhat secure, and you don't end up worrying about stuff in the car overnight. The "nested-Russian-doll" part is that I also brought a daypack, and fanny-pack that I could schlep when we hiked. The CF tripod plus Acratech Gimbal ballhead were fantastic both for hiking and car stops. I'm sure there are lots of other ways to go, but this worked very well for me.

I'll have to be careful and not end up trying to bring everything. And my everything keeps growing! My meager experience has also led me to a Babushka doll approach. I converted a daypack to a photopack and am really liking it...except it recently got too small.

I just ordered a Acratech head (GV2) for my old tripod. I hope it's here tomorrow. A CF leg upgrade will happen later. I gather you're pleased with your GV2? I have considered ordering a pano set up. I'm still debating which RRS version to invest in. The panos from Glacier were sure awsome.

Ann McRae · October 13, 2007

I had an interesting experience that could have been very bad for me. My work horse lens, the 17 - 85mm IS, quit working about day 4 of our 2 week shoot. I had made the decision to buy the CP for only that lens, as I knew it would be my only landscape lens.
I was rescued by DavidTO when he lent me his 17 - 55mm, but my CP did not fit.
I also was given a grad ND (thanks guys!) on this trip.

I think filters are necessary.

I also think my lesson learned is to have some redundancy/flexability in lens line up.

I had 2 bodies with me, and that was fabulous. One landscape, one wildlife. I also learned te importance of long wildlife lens, or a TC (again I was able to borrow one all trip and that was great!)

And finally, I learned not to be afraid to shoot landscape with long lenses.

ann

jdryan3 · October 14, 2007

ChrisP6 wrote:

This may change based on the kind of photography you're doing, but I thought the "nested-Russian-doll" model worked well for us. Basically, we used the big ThinkTank cases to get the majority of our gear there, and then used them to get the gear back and forth from the car everyday. The cases lock in the room, so it feels somewhat secure, and you don't end up worrying about stuff in the car overnight. The "nested-Russian-doll" part is that I also brought a daypack, and fanny-pack that I could schlep when we hiked.

For those 8 mile strolls, what did people use? Small backpack, Slingshot, waistpack, nothing, ???

I travel a decent amount and do the nested thing often - I pack all my gear in a Tenba medium backpack, and then a small shoulder bag to schlep my day kit (5D, 70-200 IS, 24-70, flash or other lens) in my checked luggage. When hiking I always have a fanny pack for small stuff, plus either my Tenba partially unloaded or the shoulder bag.

But I am seriously looking at the Think Tank Speed Freak, with a lens changer, or a Pro Belt system with a couple of lens changers and a chimp cage. There is something to be said for instant access, and gettting the weight off my shoulders. I could then have a camel back for water.

Did anyone there (or elsewhere) use a waist rather than pack based system? For sports its obviously great, but what are the pros/cons of a waist system while hiking. And what about climbing & slacklining?

Many Thanks for any feedback!

Ann McRae · October 14, 2007

Hi

I used my lowepro backpack -for all aspects. I carried all my gear in it while driving!!!!

For longish hikes, and long hikes, I left lots of gear in the room. I carried the 20d with the 17 - 55 on board, and the 70 - 200 & 1.4 TC in the bag. No tripod. This worked for me from the point of view of finding the 6 mile hike to Grinnel Lake easy.

On other walks, I carried lots of gear - and I was okay, but the first thing to go typically was the tripod. Then my 20d around my neck, 1d in the bag, remaining lenses (300mmf4, 135f2 and 50f1.4) in the bag with the 70 - 200 in a lens bag on the side of the pack.

Maxine fet that putting lenses into lens bags and putting them onto a belt would work well.

I actually think I would like to try a vest.

However, a properly fit backpack, well organized and balanced, can be very comfortable.

ann

jdryan3 · October 14, 2007

Ann McRae wrote:

I actually think I would like to try a vest.

However, a properly fit backpack, well organized and balanced, can be very comfortable.

ann

Thanks Ann. I have a vest and find it somewhat helpful - sort of like the cargo shorts/pants I wear. Like any system or bag, one doesn't fit all situations. In summer, they can be a little warm. :whew Plus some of my lenses don't fit well. But the easy access to all those pockets is great.

The last thing I want to do is sound whiney because all my 'L' glass is just to big and heavy.

Oh and those HOODS! :pissed

ChrisP6 · October 15, 2007

stuffjunkie wrote:

ChrisP6 wrote:

I was pretty excited seeing what was posted from Glacier '07. I do need to get out there and shoot more. We're not quite to peak colors here in NE Illinois, maybe in a week. Oh, and a few trips to the book store sounds good too.

I'll have to be careful and not end up trying to bring everything. And my everything keeps growing! My meager experience has also led me to a Babushka doll approach. I converted a daypack to a photopack and am really liking it...except it recently got too small.

I just ordered a Acratech head (GV2) for my old tripod. I hope it's here tomorrow. A CF leg upgrade will happen later. I gather you're pleased with your GV2? I have considered ordering a pano set up. I'm still debating which RRS version to invest in. The panos from Glacier were sure awsome.

I love the Acratech GV2! I've used heavier ballheads in the past and been disappointed in the weight, and sometimes the amount they shift when being locked down. The Acratech seems to lock with hardly any shift. I've also used Bogen and Wimberly (Sidekick) gimbal mounts. The Wimberley is great, but I almost never have it with me. The Acratech isn't as balanced as the Wimberly since the gimbal is on the side instead of centered over the head, but it's always with me, and works fine with my favorite lens (Sigma 120-300 f2.8). I wouldn't use it for anything heavier or taller, but I don't have anything heavier or taller. We mounted a 400mm 2.8 on the GV2 in gimbal mode, and it's obviously off-balance, and beyond it's specs. Hope that helps.

Glacier Shootout - woulda shoulda -if only-

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