She stole my pictures, now what!

PictureThis! · July 6, 2007

Some of you may remember my post a few weeks back about a friend that I took pictures of her wedding (for free) and she was wanting me to email her 'just a few' without the proof written on them and I told her that once she purchased them, they wouldn't have that written on them.

This morning, she invited me to join her MySpace and when I went on it, there was 6 of my pictures that she never purchased! They were cropped right above or below the proof and posted! Who knows how many others she has or has printed, shared, etc.

The only way that I figured she got these is by putting in her cart and then right clicking them. NOTE TO SMUGMUG: Can we please fix this!?!

Next, I am going to contact MySpace and ask them to remove the pictures. I am just blown away that she would do this! Any advice on how to deal with her and/or how to prevent this in the future?

I knew that I'd probably come across this at some point with my business, but not from doing free work for a (former) friend!

Also, where do I stand legally?

saurora · July 6, 2007

Sorry, but she sure doesn't sound like a 'friend' to me. I know hindsight is great, but the only comment I would make is to not do anything for 'free' unless you really mean it. Center your watermark boldly for wedding proofs. If anyone asks for shots without watermarks, I'd be highly suspicious. Get a deposit next time. Sorry.

Andy · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

The only way that I figured she got these is by putting in her cart and then right clicking them. NOTE TO SMUGMUG: Can we please fix this!?!

Hi, the images in the cart crop tool are right-click protected.

dragon300zx · July 6, 2007

Well it's hard because odds are you have no contract, or anything like that. However that doesn't change copyright law.

Send her an email explaining the copyright law (there are plenty of posts on here where you can get links), also state that you find it horrible that someone would take advantage of someone they claimed was a friend in such a manor as she has, then tell her she needs to remove your photos from your site, and make sure that she hasn't printed any copies of your photos. Inform her that if your requests are not met you will be in contact with a attorney who can better handle the situation and you will take the needed action to correct the situation yourself (including recovering monetary damages) if she does not comply.

Business is Business. Some people may disagree with me (I'm sure they will) but I have even fired my own father before. You did her a favor, she stole from you. She showed that she knew what she was doing was wrong by removing the watermarks intentionally.

PictureThis! · July 6, 2007

Andy wrote:

Hi, the images in the cart crop tool are right-click protected.

When I went in the cart (not trying to crop the picture) I right clicked and saved it to my computer. I didn't open the crop tool. It's the page I see when I first open my cart.

Andy · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

When I went in the cart (not trying to crop the picture) I right clicked and saved it to my computer. I didn't open the crop tool. It's the page I see when I first open my cart.

So that is a 100pixel thumbnail - is that what she stole?

PictureThis! · July 6, 2007

Andy wrote:

So that is a 100pixel thumbnail - is that what she stole?

I'm not sure. They are aren't large pictures posted, especially since all she could do was crop the PROOF off of the pictures. It's the principle. :pissed

Rhuarc · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

I'm not sure. They are aren't large pictures posted, especially since all she could do was crop the PROOF off of the pictures. It's the principle. :pissed

Unfortunatley she could have taken even the regular sized ones you have displayed in your gallery if she really wanted to. All she had to do was take a screenshot, paste it into paint or photoshop, and crop out all of the screen except for the picture she wanted to use.

As far as I know there isn't any protection that Smugmug can provide against this type of behavior. One of the hazards with working in the digital age I guess.

Andy · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

I'm not sure. They are aren't large pictures posted, especially since all she could do was crop the PROOF off of the pictures. It's the principle. :pissed

OK I know you are upset at this situation - but the thumbs in the cart are the same thumbs that are on your homepage. 100px tiny files. I'm not sure what the issue is with the shopping cart... if you can elaborate I'm happy to help!

sirsloop · July 6, 2007

Make a better watermark... even if its obnoxious... thats kinda the point anyways isnt it?

If you shoot at a wedding for free and then don't give any photos to her... its not free is it? Were you expecting her to pay you per print, per image, or something? In the future I would sit down with clients before the shoot, explain what they are going to be getting, in writing, so there is no hard feeling afterwards. IMHO, SmugMug doesn't seem like the best means of running a wedding business simply because packages work better. Maybe its a good way of posting images for guest and such but you can simply charge for having the images available online for family. IDK, I wouldn't get bent out of shape over it... simply learned the hard way.

Andy, kinda off topic, but is there a way to have different watermarks for different sized photos? Kinda like... on a 3x2 ratio photo have your landscape watermark, and on a 2x3 ratio photo have a portrait watermark? I'm pretty sure that there is not a feature like this, but I think that could solve a problem about watermarks being sufficient on some photos and tiny on others. Maybe have two different watemarks... one for photos where they are wider than tall, and another one for photos taller than wide (pixel count).

Angelo · July 6, 2007

whaddya know... copyright resources, right at the top of this forum.

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=62387

good luck!

Ann McRae · July 6, 2007

Some really good points about this made here.

ann

sirsloop · July 6, 2007

oh... I forgot to mention... have you simply asked her to take down the photos without sounding massively upset? The fact that you called her should hint to her that you didn't like her taking the photos. Honey always catches more flies than vinegar.

dogwood · July 6, 2007

Andy wrote:

OK I know you are upset at this situation - but the thumbs in the cart are the same thumbs that are on your homepage. 100px tiny files. I'm not sure what the issue is with the shopping cart... if you can elaborate I'm happy to help!

Andy has a point. I just ran a quick test on a 100 pixel wide horizontal pic at 72 ppi. I upsized it to 300 pixels wide and even with a healthy dose of unsharp mask, it's a blurred mess. So the thumbs are not likely to be your problem even if the end usage is myspace.

I've had folks swipe and use watermarked images for their myspace-- so knowing this happens, I've switched my watermark to my url plus a copyright notice right across the middle. If I shoot an event with a high potential of interest, I'll tile the watermark so it's just about impossible to remove or hide or use the image without my name all over it.

As everyone here knows, even that won't stop people swiping images, but at least your name is on them. People who swipe watermarked images aren't going to buy them no matter what, in my experience anyway. And someone who won't even pay for a photographer for their own wedding? Well, that's probably your first warning sign that they don't exactly value photography.

claudermilk · July 6, 2007

Fiorst of all that really sucks, shows how bad things have gotten. I'd try a combination of zx and sirsloop's suggestions. Start out nice, informing her how big a deal it is to you & how illegal it is (the intentional removal of the proof puts her in very hot water regarding copyright law). I figure you have quite a lot of leverage in this case ("you wanna see your wedding photos--ever--or not?"). Though sirsloop did have aggod point: was it free or not? What kind of negotiations & agreement was in place before the event?

PictureThis! · July 6, 2007

To clear up some gaps here, her parents had already hired another photographer (the wedding was about 2.5 hours from where I live). I asked if I could take pictures for my website and she said yes, she wanted me to take pictures. When she asked for 'a few' originals, I told her they were for sale. I don't expect to make money off of the four hours I spent photographing her wedding, but I do for the six hours of editing and making collages for her (if she wants them, that is).

If she'd asked for images for her MySpace, we could've worked something out for a lower price. I do that all the time for my son's friends and their action shots for sports. The point is how she went about this.

I haven't called her yet. I'm cooling down until after lunch. I'm still thinking about how to handle this with her. Point blank, I believe she just doesn't want to pay for the pictures.

Andy, I'm not upset with SmugMug by any means! She just started my day off with a sour taste in my mouth. How I saved the image is:
1. Add an image to your cart.
2. View cart.
3. Right click on any image.
4. You can save the images. They are low resolution. But, can we add right-click protection at this point as well? Thanks!

Rhuarc · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

3. Right click on any image.
4. You can save the images. They are low resolution. But, can we add right-click protection at this point as well? Thanks!

If they do this I guess they would need to add right click protectionto the thumbnails on the regular galleries as well.

Andy, is there any way to prevent people from taking screenshots and then cropping down to the picture? From my 15 years of computer experience I would say no, but there is always someone who knows more so I figureit's better to ask than assume! I guess this is why watermarks through the center of the image are good to use.

Andy · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

4. You can save the images. They are low resolution. But, can we add right-click protection at this point as well? Thanks!

It is a thumbnail, just like on your homepage or gallery pages. No, they are not right click protected. It's 150px on the longest side.

dragon300zx · July 6, 2007

Rhuarc wrote:

Andy, is there any way to prevent people from taking screenshots and then cropping down to the picture?

Have I seen this where screen shots are prevented? Yes. A few years ago I did see this but forgot what program it was on. I wasn't a photographer then so didn't see it as being something I cared about.

Is this something I have seen done with a website? No.

Doing this with a website would be really hard seeing as the screenshot ability is built into the operating system. The browser would have to access the operating system and prevent it that way. I just don't see that being something thats going to happen with security restrictions being what they are these days.

dogwood · July 6, 2007

dragon300zx wrote:

Have I seen this where screen shots are prevented?

Okay, let's say the website can disable the computer from saving the screenshot-- and let's say I still want the photo. Hmmm... what's this in my pocket? Oh yeah, it's my cell phone with the camera in it.

'Course I'd use something fancier than a cell phone, but I'm sure you get the idea of how even an average person can get a copy of your photo no matter what.

If you can see it on a screen, there will ALWAYS be a way someone can get a copy.

One other point-- so there was a hired photographer for the wedding and now you're trying to sell the couple the photos you shot at the wedding too? Not saying you have to do this, but often as a guest at a wedding, if you shoot some photos of the bride and groom, and they are your friends, well, many people would simply give the bride and groom copies of the photos they shot. That's how I'd do it (and have) anyway.

sirsloop · July 6, 2007

You can completely block copy+paste with the right javascript... I used to have it on my page but its a bit invasive. I mean if you are looking at my page, click over to outlook and try to copy an email address it doesnt work.

Also, with IE7 there is a warning by default that will tell you that if a certian page is trying to take over your clipboard, and you can simply not allow it.

At any rate, about the comment "she doesn't want to pay for photos".... of course she doesn't!! HAHA!! If everything was free nobody would willingly pay for anything. You simply have to make it clear what you are willing to do for free and what is not free.

PictureThis! · July 6, 2007

dogwood wrote:

but often as a guest at a wedding, if you shoot some photos of the bride and groom, and they are your friends, well, many people would simply give the bride and groom copies of the photos they shot. That's how I'd do it (and have) anyway.

Well, I wasn't there with my point and shoot or anything. She knew that it would be a business session for me. I told her that I would make her a DVD slideshow with all of the pictures on it and her music, and she could BUY however many prints that she wanted. She knew what she was doing.

Netgarden · July 6, 2007

I shot my friends daughters wedding similar situation, and gave her a small booklet of 20 pictures for free. I felt that asking to take pictures is a bit invasive to the wedding people involved and that my experience was worth every minute, hence the gift. If she had asked me, then I might have done it differently. I figure if I'm good enough, they will buy. But I'd never interfere with a hired photographer. Chalk it up to a learning experience all the way around.

nikos · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

To clear up some gaps here, her parents had already hired another photographer (the wedding was about 2.5 hours from where I live). I asked if I could take pictures for my website and she said yes, she wanted me to take pictures. When she asked for 'a few' originals, I told her they were for sale. I don't expect to make money off of the four hours I spent photographing her wedding, but I do for the six hours of editing and making collages for her (if she wants them, that is).

I'm going to take your friends side on this one: She's doing you a favor to promote your business on her special day and you could at least give her a print or two. After all, your shots are going to look real nice on you website at her expense (hall, dress, cake etc.)

If you play your cards right, you may even be able to sell prints to the guests and/or wedding party since she could easily refer people to your website.

On the other hand, she does have the right to have you take down the pictures on your site since you don't have a model release and you are trying to promote your business.

Regards,
Nikos

PictureThis! · July 6, 2007

nikos wrote:

On the other hand, she does have the right to have you take down the pictures on your site since you don't have a model release and you are trying to promote your business.

Regards,
Nikos

Nikos, what are the laws concerning this? I thought that since I was given permission to take pictures, they were mine and I could do whatever I wanted to with them.

nikos · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

Nikos, what are the laws concerning this? I thought that since I was given permission to take pictures, they were mine and I could do whatever I wanted to with them.

I'm not a lawyer

but

usually

A written and signed agreement (model release) is very specific as to how you will use the images of a person's likeness and it will stand up in court whereas a verbal agreement that only benefits one person is usually quickly tossed out.

Nikos

sirsloop · July 6, 2007

What happens if you go to judge judy and tell her that you had a verbal agreement?? She reaches over the bench and slaps you silly with her big book - then judges in favor of the other guy!

PetersCreek · July 6, 2007

While I agree that cropping out a watermark is a darned shady thing to do, looking at it from this other viewpoint opens up a whole new can of worms.

I'm not a lawyer by any means but I really think you need a model release to cover yourself if you're using these photos for commercial/promotional purposes. The conventional wisdom with releases, as I understand them, is that something of value must be exchanged in order to establish a contractual obligation. Although it wasn't the primary purpose of the event, of course, they essentially modeled for the photographs you took. What do they get in return?

Maybe the prudent, less-confrontational course would be to ask for the model releases and offer a mutually agreeable print(s) in return, with the clear understanding that additional prints are available for purchase.

dragon300zx · July 6, 2007

PetersCreek wrote:

Maybe the prudent, less-confrontational course would be to ask for the model releases and offer a mutually agreeable print(s) in return, with the clear understanding that additional prints are available for purchase.

If your using these for your own promotion this is correct. It's completely different if you put the gallery up for her to look at and pick her favorite photos. But if you are going to use them for your own promotion (website, print, etc), then you would need a release. This wasn't a public event, or in a public area i'm assuming, and the subjects are easily to identify.

LiquidAir · July 6, 2007

PictureThis! wrote:

Nikos, what are the laws concerning this? I thought that since I was given permission to take pictures, they were mine and I could do whatever I wanted to with them.

Nikos is right. You cannot use the photos in any way that implies any kind of endorsement withtout a model release. Essentially you are leaving yourself open to being sued for libel.

Also, generally the primary photographer for a wedding will include in his/her contract that there will not be any other professional photographers at the event.

You are right that your friend is misusing your photos without permission. However, you it seems to me that you are skating on the edge of the grey here. If you want to be treated like a professional photographer, my suggestion is to stick to the center of the road and get a signed contract up front. In my experience, people are much more likely to steal images when the price is set after the photos are taken so if you want to continue to follow that road you will need to work much harder to protect your work.

As an example, a friend of a friend asked me to shoot some headshots for him to help him return to his acting career. He is pretty hard up these days so I offered to waive my sitting fee. When we actually started to talk details (this is before the shoot), I told him up front what the prints were going to cost. His repsonse was "I can't afford that, just give me the originals and I'll print them myself.' So far I haven't done the shoot yet becasue I am still trying to figure out how to get him prints at a price he can afford without giving him the orginals.

The point here is that most people who are not in the business think the photographer gets paid for taking picutures (i.e. fee for service) rather than as a royalty for owning the copyright to them. If you want to educate them about that disctinction, it is best to do it before the pictures are taken. Otherwise you should be rabid with watermarks to protect your rights because in practice suing over copyright infringment is usually more work that it is worth.

PictureThis! · July 6, 2007

Thanks LiquidAir, I appreciate it! We did get permission from the paid photographer before I told her that I would do it. I'm not advertising her photos. Although they can be found on my website, they're not in my portfolio, homepage, or anything like that. I'm not sure if that matters or not.

I suppose that my business has gotten to the level that I should get a contract signed before booking events such as weddings. Do you know where I can find some good examples?

She stole my pictures, now what!

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