LPS#7 Feedback Thread

[Shay Stephens]

This came in a PM today from urbanaries

• In Hindsight. #63 Xia_Ke. The first time I looked at this image, I clutched my mouth. I have looked at it several times now and it haunts me more each time, brings me to tears. In fact I’m crying openly about it now as I write about it. I feel so much pain in this image, I find it difficult to move on and talk about my other selections. It definitely taps into my own pain for people close to me. The black marks on the wall represent an essential mystery in this shot. Does the man have a head wound and that’s his blood smeared along the side of the wall and he’s quietly dying...alone? Is that the devil himself escaping this man’s soul? First this image made me openly weep; and then it leaves me with unanswered questions. Brilliant.
• Miss Wu Ling’s Flight #15 Hoofclix. A colorful, subtle yet exuberant image. The motion blur is perfectly executed, almost ethereal. Makes me feel light and hopeful. An abstract, Zen-like interpretation of joy; it resonates.
• There Never Were Such Devoted Sisters #35 Indiegirl. What an intense dose of emotion here. I’m instantly hooked. Beautiful and heart wrenching. Hard to forget. I think the shrouded anonymity of the girls helps set this image apart.
• The Joy of Victory #49 vt122. Can’t deny the joy here, its infectious. Those girls are stoked! Nice capture.
• This Bird Has Flown #48 Nikolai. The contrast and lighting serve this poignant moment well. I felt the bittersweet sentiment here, for sure.
• Just One Tear #42 Strikeslip. The abstract approach really works with this shot. Nice balance of blur and detail. Less is more….I love it.
• Unfair #54 Nikos. The child is deeply feeling the pain rather than outwardly expressing it. The hand over the face underscores the internalization. There are no obvious tears, but the welling and the redness show its either brimming on the surface, or the storm has just passed. That question makes the shot. Nicely done.
• Mom brought a Bug! #66 DrDane. What an amazing capture. All three mouths wide open, and that poor little bug….he’s definitely outta luck!
• Alone #32 Flybynight. Had trouble with the staged-ness of this one but in the end it won me over. The neon sign really makes this shot. It’s very tastefully done, and I definitely feel the sorrow. The conversion is perfect, love the slight preservation of detail in the woman’s arm and hair.
• The Umbrella Maker #13 Pemmett. How can you not reflect the joy in this man’s eyes? He’s clearly had a tough life but his outlook is apparent in his nature. I don’t think the heavy processing is necessary, but the man’s joy shines through nonetheless. Wonderful portrait.

She also added this very interesting note:

Thoughts on this round:

When I was a freshman in high school, I competed in a speech competition. Poetry was an event I thought I could pull off fairly easily. But after hearing my competition I was deathly afraid. All were incredibly polished, had these nifty little binders they opened and shut matter-of-factly, and had transitions and gestures memorized word for word, like robots. In comparison, I was just going to wing it, with my trite little poems I'd chosen on the topic of loss. I did a decent job of interpreting the works, but stumbled through my transitions, and was pretty sure I was dead last. I actually won first prize in that round, and advanced to the next. When I thought about it, I remembered a moment in a poem about a stillborn, where the judge put her forehead in her hand. I didn't think much of it at the time, but after I won that round (and was subsequently annihilated in the next) I knew that I had touched that judge, even though I wasn't the most polished or prepared competitor.

Sometimes folks around here pay a lot of attention to getting the exact dictionary connotation of the theme, or the exact millimeter of a crop, or the exact amount of contrast. Emotion isn't a formula. I wasn't sure I would actually BE MOVED in this round, but I was, and it was unforgettable, and cathartic.

[Shay Stephens]

And some very nice feedback came in from schmooo

1) Nikolai - This Bird Has Flown
This was #1 for me because it was the only photo that, as soon as I looked at it (and even before I fully understood what was going on), I had tears in my eyes. The pose, the lighting, his expression, the empty window, and the outstretched hand say it all to me. I didn't even see the shape of the cap and gown at first, but when I did there was a second round of heartstrings pulled. I absolutely love photos that come around a few extra times to punch you, and this one is it. The title is also absolutely perfectly poetic and descriptive without giving too much away in the first hand.

2) drdane - Mom Brought a Bug!
I love this shot because it made me laugh out loud! Capturing expressions in animals makes the value of that emotion so much better, and the sheer instinctual joy of finally having food when you're a helpless baby bird is infectious. I can't help but humanize the ugly little things. Post-processing works well here: punchy colors that accentuate the sharpness of their open beaks. I even think the composition of the shot leads us up from the bottom corner to swoop right into their mouths.

3) PaulThomasMcKee- The Exuberance of Flight
A great shot of a great moment. I wondered how such a stunt was pulled off until I read the thread describing it, and it brought even more life to the picture. As a kid I remember loving being thrown around like this, too, so at the same time I feel joy in the boy's grin while being a bit sorrowful that I'm long past that stage in my life where I can experience something similar. The perspective of this photo is perfect, and packs a much better punch than a third party could have captured standing off to the side.

4) saurora - Bee dazzling
Another happy nature shot that made me smile right away! The clean background and the backlighting really accentuate the crazy-happy-yellow of the sunflowers. IMO you can't look at sunflowers and not smile, but to have a little bee fanning his wings into a blur in front makes me feel its excitement. The size discrepancy between the bees and the flower makes me think "happy gluttony!" I think all the negative space on the right works very well here, in the same vein.

5) f00sion - Joy or Sorrow?
This one is special to me because when I first heard the theme of this challenge, this concept of pregnancy was the first thing that came to mind. Such an important event can mean two completely different things to a person, and therein lies the mystery. Although I think the photo could have been executed a bit better (underexposed a touch? A fairly busy background), her pose and the placement of the mirror are perfect. I love the fact that she has no face and is wearing simple clothes. It does not look too "staged" to me, which is aesthetically and conceptually pleasing.

6) leaforte - Fare Thee Well
I remember seeing this shot in black and white in the People section and I really do prefer it in color. Graduation is such a momentous time, mixing joy and sorrow all together. I have a particular resonance with such mixed feelings myself and I think this candid shot of two friends in one of their final moments really hits home for me. I know that even though they may promise to keep in touch after this day it will never be the same. And it makes me wonder if they were roommates? Classmates? Acquaintances that were maybe just too busy during the semester to become better friends? Either way the photo is making me want to know more about them, which is a wonderful thing for a photo to do. The fountain and the clear blue behind them is also a nice backdrop, and the other graduates even farther in the distance. It is difficult to get a clean, well-composed candid street shot and this is very well done.

7) Elaine - Sand Angel
I think this is a lovely photo. Great post-processing, nice and clean and it shows the innocent joy of being on the beach. I think this is a great photo to look at but I also think that it lacks a storytelling aspect that would give it that extra "wow" factor.

8) lynnsite - Sand Bath Bliss
I find the lighting in this photo fantastic, and knowing how happy horses can get in a stretch of dirt this makes me smile. I can almost hear the grunting of satisfaction that comes right before this moment when the horse sits up and pretends that nothing has happened. The teeny foal looking at mom is probably wondering what's so great, which I find pretty darned funny! Overall the tones of the shot makes me feel relaxed and warm, which is the definition of happiness.

9) StrikeSlip - Just One Tear
A very abstract shot that I find pleasing and mystical. The muted tones and the darkness around the tear really bring the subject into the spotlight, literally. Part of me wants to know why she is crying, but the other part of me just doesn't really care because the focus is in the shape and tones themselves.

10) tsk1979 - Will You Marry Me?
Although I am not a big fan of selective coloring, this shot is clear and clean and the expression on her face is priceless. I am left wishing that there was something in the photo that I had to work harder to get, something a little bit less obvious, but nonetheless the emotion is there and the scene is clear and straightforward.

[Xia_Ke]

Originally Posted by Shay Stephens

This came in a PM today from urbanaries

• In Hindsight. #63 Xia_Ke. The first time I looked at this image, I clutched my mouth. I have looked at it several times now and it haunts me more each time, brings me to tears. In fact I’m crying openly about it now as I write about it. I feel so much pain in this image, I find it difficult to move on and talk about my other selections. It definitely taps into my own pain for people close to me. The black marks on the wall represent an essential mystery in this shot. Does the man have a head wound and that’s his blood smeared along the side of the wall and he’s quietly dying...alone? Is that the devil himself escaping this man’s soul? First this image made me openly weep; and then it leaves me with unanswered questions. Brilliant.

And that was a self portait but, we'll touch on that another time Thank you for the feedback and I'm glad it touched you as much as it did.

[thebigsky]

Originally Posted by Shay Stephens

(From Urbanaries)Sometimes folks around here pay a lot of attention to getting the exact dictionary connotation of the theme, or the exact millimeter of a crop, or the exact amount of contrast. Emotion isn't a formula. I wasn't sure I would actually BE MOVED in this round, but I was, and it was unforgettable, and cathartic.

Fair point all though the flip side of that argument might be, what's the point in having themes if they're so loosely interpretted pretty much anything goes.

Sorrow is a specific word used to define sadness at loss or bereavement not simply being unhappy or distressed, I singularly fail to see how closely cropped images of children crying emote sorrow.

Given the simplistic approach it would have been better to have used the theme 'happy or unhappy.'

Arrrgghh, I'm so angry with myself for entering again, I sometimes think I speak a different version of English to many others.

Charlie

[schmoo]

Originally Posted by thebigsky

Fair point all though the flip side of that argument might be, what's the point in having themes if they're so loosely interpretted pretty much anything goes.

Charlie, I understand your thought but I think the most difficult part of artistic competition is to create something in a fresh way without losing the message in the execution. "Loose" is not necessarily the word I would use. "Innovative," maybe!

It's true that children cry for a lot of reasons. The way I approach photos is looking inside myself and thinking about how viewing that image touches me.

[Tentacion]

Sometimes folks around here pay a lot of attention to getting the exact dictionary connotation of the theme, or the exact millimeter of a crop, or the exact amount of contrast. Emotion isn't a formula. I wasn't sure I would actually BE MOVED in this round, but I was, and it was unforgettable, and cathartic.

Hmmm kind of contradictory this thought, I wonder if Ansel thought the same way, when he would process 8 different frames to come up with one GREAT photo??

Then why have a "Contest", why have "Themes"? You must understand the "Exact" connotation of the theme and make it excel...!!

I thought this contest was to bring out the juices of the photographer in Creativity, Composition, and Techs, all that is involved in being a great photographer?

Ok I'm a bit confused now with all of this after taking classes for all the technical aspects of photography, so I could understand the rules and break them artiscally, so that my photos would not be just considered "snapshots for the family album".

Just my opinion...

PS: Haven't some of the best photos posted here been badly critiqued due to Crop, Contrast, Not enough color too muted, Not enough or No focal point such as in panning images, No or wrong interpretation of the theme..so it is being said now that pictures were critiqued wrongly and now pictures are only being judged by what the judges "like"???

[thebigsky]

Originally Posted by schmooo

Charlie, I understand your thought but I think the most difficult part of artistic competition is to create something in a fresh way without losing the message in the execution. "Loose" is not necessarily the word I would use. "Innovative," maybe!

It's true that children cry for a lot of reasons. The way I approach photos is looking inside myself and thinking about how viewing that image touches me.

There are either themes, or they are not themes, or there are themes that use language that is purposely non specific and open to interpretation.

Interpretation however should not allow the bastardisation of language, sorrow is a specific form of unhappiness, if the judges were not looking for images portraying sorrow, then the theme should not have been sorrow.

If you were to feel a sense of loss or bereavment viewing those images then fair enough, sympathy, empathy, sadness maybe, but not sorrow.

Charlie

[sherstone]

Originally Posted by thebigsky

Arrrgghh, I'm so angry with myself for entering again, I sometimes think I speak a different version of English to many others.

Charlie

Would you be angry if a judge had been moved enough by your wonderful smile to give you enough points to place in the top 10?

It may be English but we all have a different perspective on what makes us feel happy or sad, joyful or sorrowful. That very fact is very evident in the few people that showed their top 10 picks before the official judges. Even the judges themselves had a wide spread of different likes and dislikes.


A big thank you again to all the judges, I learn a great deal every time I read the feedback on all the images.

[flybynight]

Newbie here with a question. Is the objective in these challenges too evoke say (sorrow or joy) in the judges, or is it to depict it in your entry?

[Shay Stephens]

Well I don't know why you are angry at yourself for entering, I love your photo. It's awesome, and it was in my top ten. Would you have taken that photo had it not been for the contest? The photo is really very very good.

Originally Posted by thebigsky

Arrrgghh, I'm so angry with myself for entering again, I sometimes think I speak a different version of English to many others.

Charlie

[thebigsky]

Originally Posted by sherstone

Would you be angry if a judge had been moved enough by your wonderful smile to give you enough points to place in the top 10?

It may be English but we all have a different perspective on what makes us feel happy or sad, joyful or sorrowful. That very fact is very evident in the few people that showed their top 10 picks before the official judges. Even the judges themselves had a wide spread of different likes and dislikes.


A big thank you again to all the judges, I learn a great deal every time I read the feedback on all the images.

I don't want to fall out with you, but you've singularly failed to understand the point I'm making.

Furthermore, part of the reason I'm angry, is because once you've entered a competition and lost, it's difficult to criticise that competition without accusations of sour grapes.

I don't appreciate the ludicrous way in which the word 'interpretation' is bandied around in this competition and used as an excuse for entering images not related to the theme.

Charlie

[thebigsky]

Originally Posted by Shay Stephens

Well I don't know why you are angry at yourself for entering, I love your photo. It's awesome, and it was in my top ten. Would you have taken that photo had it not been for the contest? The photo is really very very good.

I'm mostly angry because I've exposed myself emotionally to be judged in a contest where the rules or guidelines are regularly ignored or misinterpreted, I feel a sense of injustice.

However I'm also angry because if I could put on my neutral hat I might read my own posts are 'interpret' them as sour grapes and they really aren't.

Charlie

[Shay Stephens]

Originally Posted by thebigsky

There are either themes, or they are not themes, or there are themes that use language that is purposely non specific and open to interpretation.

Interpretation however should not allow the bastardisation of language, sorrow is a specific form of unhappiness, if the judges were not looking for images portraying sorrow, then the theme should not have been sorrow.

If you were to feel a sense of loss or bereavment viewing those images then fair enough, sympathy, empathy, sadness maybe, but not sorrow.

Charlie

Almost every word has many meanings and or nuances...

Sorrow (Sor"row) (?), n.
[OE. sorwe, sorewe, sor¿e, AS. sorg, sorh; akin to D. zorg care, anxiety, OS. sorga, OHG. sorga, soraga, suorga, G. sorge, Icel., Sw., & Dan. sorg, Goth. sa\'a3rga; of unknown origin.]

The uneasiness or pain of mind which is produced by the loss of any good, real or supposed, or by disappointment in the expectation of good; grief at having suffered or occasioned evil; regret; unhappiness; sadness. Milton. "How great a sorrow suffereth now Arcite!" Chaucer. "The safe and general antidote against sorrow is employment." Rambler.

Synonyms -- Grief; unhappiness; regret; sadness; heaviness; mourning; affliction. See Affliction, and Grief.Sorrow (Sor"row), v. i.
[imp. & p. p. Sorrowed (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Sorrowing.]
[OE. sorowen, sorwen, sorhen, AS. sorgian; akin to Goth. sa\'a3rgan. See Sorrow, n.]

To feel pain of mind in consequence of evil experienced, feared, or done; to grieve; to be sad; to be sorry. "Sorrowing most of all . . . that they should see his face no more." Acts xx. 38. "I desire no man to sorrow for me." Sir J. Hayward.

Free your mind

[thebigsky]

No, I don't buy it Shay, and can I just point out before anyone gets the wrong idea, two of the images of unhappy children, by I think Nikos and Indiegirl are both considerably better photographs than mine and both also evoke greater emotion than mine, but that emotion for me is not sorrow.

I strive to take pictures as good and emotive as those and maybe once I can, I'll expose myself again to being judged.

Charlie

[HoofClix]

It is a wide range of opinions on how to express the theme in a single photo as well as a wide range of interpretations on how folks are interpreting the entries. I only got in on this thing starting in Round 6, and I can say difinitively that I would not have taken either of my entries had I not been trying to shoot to the theme. But that's the point. For me, having shot over the past year some 120,000 photos at 40 horse shows of animals jumping over wooden poles, it was refreshing to have something to get me focused on the more artistic side. I am excited and appreciative to have been included in the 10 finalists in Round 7, but more importantly, in getting that photo, I spent a great Sunday in a park taking lots of photos of a lot of things, some of which are better photos than my entry, but now I have some things to work with! Should I be upset that mine wasn't more unanimously approved? No way. Should I now go try to tailor make my entry for Round 8 to fit what I think the judges will approve of. No Way...

So I say that we should just take these contests in perspective, go out there and create something, and don't worry about how it get's judged. Won't we all be better for it in the end? Way!

.

[Shay Stephens]

Here are some quotes dealing with sorrow I found:

To the old, sorrow is sorrow; to the young, it is despair.
- George Eliot (pseudonym of Mary Ann Evans Cross)

We pick our own sorrows out of the joys of other men, and from their sorrows likewise we derive our joys.
- Owen Felltham (Feltham)

The sorrowful dislike the gay, and the gay the sorrowful.
[Lat., Oderunt hilarem tristes tristemque jocosi.]
- Horace (Quintus Horatius Flaccus),
Epistles (I, 18, 89)

Sorrows humanize our race;
Tears are the showers that fertilize this world.
- Jean Ingelow

Sorrow is properly that state of the mind in which our desires are fixed upon the past without looking forward to the future.
- Samuel Johnson (a/k/a Dr. Johnson) ("The Great Cham of Literature")

Every heart has its secret sorrows which the world knows not, and oftentimes we call a man cold, when he is only sad.
- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Sorrow is tranquility remembered in emotion.
- Dorothy Rothchild Parker (Mrs. Alan Campbell)

[Shay Stephens]

Originally Posted by thebigsky

No, I don't buy it Shay, and can I just point out before anyone gets the wrong idea, two of the images of unhappy children, by I think Nikos and Indiegirl are both considerably better photographs than mine and both also evoke greater emotion than mine, but that emotion for me is not sorrow.

I strive to take pictures as good and emotive as those and maybe once I can, I'll expose myself again to being judged.

Charlie

Well don't be a stranger for too long, I am going to miss your photos!!!

[flybynight]

Like I said I’m new here and don’t know the ropes but, on other sites I grade photos upwards of 100 wkly. I find I vote on a scale of 1-5. Normally I judge if a photo meets the challenge, technicals and originality not whether it made me feel a certain way upon first seeing it. just MHO……..

[saurora]

Originally Posted by sherstone

It may be English but we all have a different perspective on what makes us feel happy or sad, joyful or sorrowful. That very fact is very evident in the few people that showed their top 10 picks before the official judges. Even the judges themselves had a wide spread of different likes and dislikes.

Our life experiences flavor our interpretations of the themes. I think it is unreasonable to expect judges to view every piece of art by dictionary definition alone. How boring would that be? One can look at (for instance) "Unfair" and see varying reasons as to why that child is crying. Could be just unhappy to many, could come across as a spoilt brat to others, but to a person whose parents divorced at an early age (and yes, children at that age are aware of missing parents) it would be a sorrowful situation indeed....is not divorce a loss to a child? So of course our experiences make my choice for the top ten different than yours!

Schmoo.....thank you so much for your kind words on my entry. I felt I was taking a risk by thinking outside the box, so to speak, with my entry. I had several ideas that did not come to fruition, and this was not one of them! But it grew and grew on me. I do experience great joy (especially as a photographer) with beautiful light and that also played into this selection. I did not expect to make the top ten, so I am pleased that my entry effected some in some way. It's a tough job being a judge and your feedback is much appreciated. I learn alot reading these feedbacks even on other people's entries. Feedback is what it is. It is valuable information if not taken personally. Sometimes the feedback may not be entirely accurate, but even that can be valuable to the photographer. The photographer gains by knowing how others interpret their work. If something comes across inaccurately, we need to know this as well. Thanks again!

[thebigsky]

Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! !!

That's the sound of my frustration at not being able to clearly express the point I'm trying to make, which is clearly a fault on my part.

As much as I hate the phrase, we'll just have to 'agree to disagree,' without context, the image of a child crying will never emote sorrow to me, not in the way that I understand sorrow.

Charlie