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Los Altos Police Encounter
rutt
Registered Users Posts: 6,511 Major grins
On Tuesday, I went for a walk with a friend and colleague in Los Altos, CA. We waled from El Camino Real near El Monte to downtown Los Altos through the residential neighborhoods and past the high school. I was afternoon right after the big storm and naturally I had my camera around my neck to try to catch some shots in the sweet afternoon light.
We passed some kids playing basketball in a driveway and I paused to take their picture a few times. These are the sort of shots that I usually would have deleted very early in my workflow, but in this case I'll share them.
One of the children askked who was I. I answered, "John, who are you?" Then we were on our way. My friend views this sort of walkk as exercise and does not like to stand still too long.
Not too long afterward a middle aged man driving an SUB pulled up next to us. Was I the person who was taking pictures of the kids? I don't think I can quote him very well. The upshot was that he was pretty upset. He did say he was a marketing manager at Adobe. I don't think he was obscene and I didn't feel physically threatened. We gave him our business cards, showed him our IDs, and I told him that I am a hobbyist. I told him that I often take candid pictures and sometimes of children. I said that people "back East" seemed more relaxed about it. I told him that it just so happened that my candid photo of a child was the kodak Picture of the Day that day. He might have said "bullsh*t", but I'm not sure. I'm sure he said it later; read on.
He told us that the police had been alerted and not to be surprised when they stoppped us soon. I offered to wait with hiim for the police, but he wouldn't do that. Soon he was gone and so were we.
We continued our walk through Los altos. I still didn't get much in terms of shots, but the light sure was nice. This business of shooting while walking with someone who views it as his daily exercise is suboptimal.
So we get back from our walk, and sure enough the Los Altos police care is parked in the lot in front of our office and two cops are there and basically work has come to a halt and these guys want to see us pretty badly. They checked our IDs, took a couple of pictures of each of us for their records (which made my friend particularly crazy), and basicallly wasted the rest of the afternoon. They repeated about 10 times something like this:
In the end they insisted that we print out for them:
The implied that the guy who reported us was pretty hot under the collar. They asked if he used obscenity with me or threatened physical violence. I'm pretty sure he told them that he thought it was "bull*" that had something to do with Kodak.
They also wanted to make very sure that I knew that things "back East" weren't any more relaxed about this sort of thing than in Los Altos. I think this was another thing the guy who called the police called "bull*".
These are the facts as best as I can recall them. Now I'm going to engage in a little analysis. What was going on? It seems there has been some bad stuff going on in the neighborhood recently. Someone had been breaking into houses at night and molesting children, but he was caught a few weeks and DNA testing confirmied his identity. Still, as a parent, it's easy for me to sympathize with why this would make people edgy about having strangers take pictures of their children. So the community was wound up tighter than a drum. (Me to policeman, "I'm not from here and didn't know about this." Policeman to me, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Me, "but this isn't a law, it's just a local circumstance." Policeman nods agreement.)
That partly explains things. But why didn't the reporter of the suspicious behavior take me up on my offer to wait around for the police? If he really thought I was dangerous, that would have been the only responsible thing to do.
My wife is a doctor and has spent some time working in emergency rooms in NYC and New Haven. Her take on the situation is for small town cops like these, this was by far the most entertaining thing going on that day. It didn't take long after they saw us for the word "Harmless" to appear over our heads. But here we were. There was nothing else more interesting going on. They got a look inside a high tech startup. They got to watch it's CEO, who is something of a celebrity (in a positive way) prey in the direction of Mecca before he broke his fast. They got to see that the Kodak POTD thing was real. All in all it was better than sitting in the donut shop.
I sort of wish I had asked the police if I could take their pictures. But I guess I'm glad I didn't. I would have liked to have had those pictures though.
And the policemen's fun wasn't over when they left our office. Their next stop was the home of the reporter of the suspicious characters. Now they were armed with the printouts of the Kodak website and related images (Thanks Andy!) They had my card with my Newton and Nantucket addresses on it as well as URLs of my public online galleries. They had spoken to Ash (my boss) who has lived in Los Altos for more than 20 years and whose daughter was valedictorian of her high school class a few years ago (imagine the competition in that town!) They saw their job as putting this guy's worries to rest. How much longer do you think they took to do that than was really necessary?
So what's the real take away here? I don't really know, and I'd like to hear from others. How isolated an incident was this? How special were the circumstances? I've only encountered very positive feedback in the past when shooting candids of children in public spaces. Have I just been very lucky? Is there something different about "back East" and "out West"? Could such a thing have happened to Henri Cartier-Bresson? Could I have been more accommodating and/or less threatening? Am I stupid?
Here are the pictures I actually took of the children playing basketball. As I said before, these aren't winning any photo contests, but I suppose they are interesting in the context of the story.
Ginger's point is well taken. I think these are completely innocent photos, but I'll respect the privacy of the subjects and their parents. I wasn't thinking clearly when I first posted them. So now you'll just have to use your imagination. [And they were lousy shots anyway.]
We passed some kids playing basketball in a driveway and I paused to take their picture a few times. These are the sort of shots that I usually would have deleted very early in my workflow, but in this case I'll share them.
One of the children askked who was I. I answered, "John, who are you?" Then we were on our way. My friend views this sort of walkk as exercise and does not like to stand still too long.
Not too long afterward a middle aged man driving an SUB pulled up next to us. Was I the person who was taking pictures of the kids? I don't think I can quote him very well. The upshot was that he was pretty upset. He did say he was a marketing manager at Adobe. I don't think he was obscene and I didn't feel physically threatened. We gave him our business cards, showed him our IDs, and I told him that I am a hobbyist. I told him that I often take candid pictures and sometimes of children. I said that people "back East" seemed more relaxed about it. I told him that it just so happened that my candid photo of a child was the kodak Picture of the Day that day. He might have said "bullsh*t", but I'm not sure. I'm sure he said it later; read on.
He told us that the police had been alerted and not to be surprised when they stoppped us soon. I offered to wait with hiim for the police, but he wouldn't do that. Soon he was gone and so were we.
We continued our walk through Los altos. I still didn't get much in terms of shots, but the light sure was nice. This business of shooting while walking with someone who views it as his daily exercise is suboptimal.
So we get back from our walk, and sure enough the Los Altos police care is parked in the lot in front of our office and two cops are there and basically work has come to a halt and these guys want to see us pretty badly. They checked our IDs, took a couple of pictures of each of us for their records (which made my friend particularly crazy), and basicallly wasted the rest of the afternoon. They repeated about 10 times something like this:
There are no criminal charges. What you did isn't illegal, unless there were certain mitigating circumstances. We are pretty sure you are OK you seem to be what you present yourselves as being. The fact that you made it so easy to find you and offered to wait for us makes us feel pretty good about you. But what if we are wrong and there is a dark side? We need to protect ourselves against that.
At one point, they also said something like, "your lucky to get old guys like us. Some of the young 'flattop' guys would have you on the floor for a search and it wouldn't be fun."In the end they insisted that we print out for them:
- The Kodak web site with my POTD,
- Some pictures of it up in Times Square, and
- The actual pictures I took on the walk (appended).
The implied that the guy who reported us was pretty hot under the collar. They asked if he used obscenity with me or threatened physical violence. I'm pretty sure he told them that he thought it was "bull*" that had something to do with Kodak.
They also wanted to make very sure that I knew that things "back East" weren't any more relaxed about this sort of thing than in Los Altos. I think this was another thing the guy who called the police called "bull*".
These are the facts as best as I can recall them. Now I'm going to engage in a little analysis. What was going on? It seems there has been some bad stuff going on in the neighborhood recently. Someone had been breaking into houses at night and molesting children, but he was caught a few weeks and DNA testing confirmied his identity. Still, as a parent, it's easy for me to sympathize with why this would make people edgy about having strangers take pictures of their children. So the community was wound up tighter than a drum. (Me to policeman, "I'm not from here and didn't know about this." Policeman to me, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Me, "but this isn't a law, it's just a local circumstance." Policeman nods agreement.)
That partly explains things. But why didn't the reporter of the suspicious behavior take me up on my offer to wait around for the police? If he really thought I was dangerous, that would have been the only responsible thing to do.
My wife is a doctor and has spent some time working in emergency rooms in NYC and New Haven. Her take on the situation is for small town cops like these, this was by far the most entertaining thing going on that day. It didn't take long after they saw us for the word "Harmless" to appear over our heads. But here we were. There was nothing else more interesting going on. They got a look inside a high tech startup. They got to watch it's CEO, who is something of a celebrity (in a positive way) prey in the direction of Mecca before he broke his fast. They got to see that the Kodak POTD thing was real. All in all it was better than sitting in the donut shop.
I sort of wish I had asked the police if I could take their pictures. But I guess I'm glad I didn't. I would have liked to have had those pictures though.
And the policemen's fun wasn't over when they left our office. Their next stop was the home of the reporter of the suspicious characters. Now they were armed with the printouts of the Kodak website and related images (Thanks Andy!) They had my card with my Newton and Nantucket addresses on it as well as URLs of my public online galleries. They had spoken to Ash (my boss) who has lived in Los Altos for more than 20 years and whose daughter was valedictorian of her high school class a few years ago (imagine the competition in that town!) They saw their job as putting this guy's worries to rest. How much longer do you think they took to do that than was really necessary?
So what's the real take away here? I don't really know, and I'd like to hear from others. How isolated an incident was this? How special were the circumstances? I've only encountered very positive feedback in the past when shooting candids of children in public spaces. Have I just been very lucky? Is there something different about "back East" and "out West"? Could such a thing have happened to Henri Cartier-Bresson? Could I have been more accommodating and/or less threatening? Am I stupid?
Here are the pictures I actually took of the children playing basketball. As I said before, these aren't winning any photo contests, but I suppose they are interesting in the context of the story.
Ginger's point is well taken. I think these are completely innocent photos, but I'll respect the privacy of the subjects and their parents. I wasn't thinking clearly when I first posted them. So now you'll just have to use your imagination. [And they were lousy shots anyway.]
If not now, when?
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where i live, about 40 miles north of nyc, there's been a pair of child-nappers working the area... and surprisingly, for about five weeks now, they haven't caught them yet. if you had done similar in westchester county ny, i guarantee you'd have been stopped and questioned, simply becuase the entire population is on the alert.
who knows what's going on in los altos, maybe something similar.
btw, i've been there all week, at the fremont hills country club
please respond to my pm, i need to hook you up with the guy who took your pic on times square...
cheers
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Thanks for posting this story and especially for taking the time to give a full accounting. It's fascinating, and disturbing. My son and I read it together and we talked about living in a country where you can be detained for 3 hours for doing nothing wrong, for the suspicion that people have for strangers.
I'm interested also to see what comes out of the discussion to come. I've taken pictures of children, and I've wondered about the propriety of it. It'll be interesting to hear what others have to say.
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I'd say "all's well that ends well". Last spring I was in a similar situation, had to delete the pictures of the kids I took in a public park (for David: Holy Tree street residential park in Oakpark, just off Kanan rd), but it did not get to police, although it was close. Luckily, I had a few friends with me:-)
My personal resolution from that lesson - candid shot should be either really candid, or (pre-)approved. Meaning: "subject should either have no idea you're taking his/her picture (nice telephoto and a swiveling body/viewfinder helps a lot:-), or give you a distinct approval". As somebody (was it Andy?) at STF put it: "point to the camera, point to the subject, raise your eyebrow" - that's pretty universal sign for "can I take your picture" even in case you don't speak the language. In touristy places (Paris, Las Vegas, Niagara Falls and such) you can usually skip that, but in residential areas (your case) you probably should be more explicit - or more candid:-).
Glad you didn't have to spent the night behind bars.
Sorry about the whole incident.
At least you got to keep the pikchas:-)
Cheers!
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
It is not illegal to shoot kids. Mitigating circumstances usually include tresspassing in order to take the pictures (so stay on public property), and invasion of privacy such as shooting in a place where a reasonable person can expect to have privacy in their home, in a public restrom, etc).
Mind you now, I shoot ships. In all the pictures I get bridges, boats, police, civilians, cranes, containers, etc. I have been stopped many times. But since this is work I have proper ID and usually just end up educatin the officers.
Last summer I was walking along the beach and took many pictures of people in the water. The California sunset offered silhouettes and I got many great shots. A female lifeguard saw me and said the police have been notified that I am invading people's privacy and they will respond, and that I had better leave the beach. I gave her a copy of the pdf and said I'd be around again in 30 minutes, if she wanted to personally arrest me she was welcome to, because I'd love to sue the city and retire and buy Mark IIs for everyone here.
A camera is NOT a weapon. It is illegal to take pictures in very few circumstances. Takingh pictures in a public place is not illegal. Having a camera on you is not like carrying a firearm. There is no such thing as a permit to take pictures in public.
I can understand a concern people have of a middle eastern looking man acting suspicious. But is taking pictures suspicious? Holy cow those police officers better get ransferred to Disneyland where they can have thousands of arrests per day!
I probably would have taken pictures of the man who questioned me, and his car and license plate. And take pictures of the police officers.
No, I am not a lawyer, but you should not need one to take pictures or own a camera!!
I'm gonna print a few copies and carry them in my Lowepro:-)
Cheers!
There are some very scared parents out there. I know, I have watched my children raise my grandchildren and wished that those kids had the same freedom their own parents had.
Thinking about it, I can understand the concern of someone going around taking photos of kids. I do it. And I had some frightened parents the second time. Same place, different parents.......... that was a public outdoor market in an upscale neighborhood. I got some great photos, but I do think I should have asked, yet I am still scared........??? I can smile and point, and I do. I talk to the people around me, but not being able to hear scares me when dealing with people.
I took photos in a neighborhood the other day. There was a man, very concerned as to why I was doing it, what I was going to do with the photos.
They are on my challenge thread. I was scared to take their photos, I knew that would put them over the edge.
Now that I think about it with all the publicity in the media of what can happen to children, I think I would want to know the name of anyone walking around taking photos. Especially in a residential type neighborhood. I can see checking it out. Anything to make those parents feel safer. So their kids are allowed outdoors to play.
Carrying a photography business card might help. I have to remember that.
ginger
A cop in Atlanta once told me not to shoot a subway station. And a security guard for the MARTA system told me to stop shooting indoors, which was merciful as every last frame sucked.
And the manager of this theater wanted to know why I was taking pictures. He told me it was like pointing a gun, which puzzled me.
Even though I know better, I still bristle when approached. Gotta work on that.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I know all too well i am over reacting here but i was put here to raise my daughter under my steam until she is 18.
Primal urge would take over instantly & i could not stop if i tried to.
My 2 bobs worth on the subject.
guess I can understand the problem someone would have with that. For exactly
that reason, I don't think I'd shoot kids playing unless it was in a public
park or other public area regardless of my legal right to do so (I'd make a
lousy papparazzi I guess).
I would however, have a serious problem spending the afternoon being
interogated all the while being advised "there's no crime here" and then
being required to "hand over" evidence.
A part of me wants to suggest you send the "marketing manager"
a bill for your time and request a copy of the officer's daily report
pertaining to the incident "You know, for my lawyer to review to make
sure I wasn't unfairly treated"
Ian
johno~
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In this picture, the fisherman had just shown up right at sunset, this was maybe his 2nd cast and I took the photo knowing the fisherman would be unrecognizable. Even still, a public place that people show up EVERY night to wacth the sunset, he packed up and left.
Just thought I'd share.
Some people really need hobbies...
I'm sure it happened to HCB, must have...
If some parents (especially a couple of moms with no hubbies around) were there, you'd probably get it sooner & worse:-)
Cheers!
I get pulled over rather quickly.
Its near dusk, so they complain about the lights. They complain about tags. I show them the receipt dated a mere 15 minutes prior, and show them a license that shows I live nearby. But the one cop ("bad" cop) is talking to me, being real serious, as if I had been tearing up the asphalt. The other cop is just circling the Vette with his flash light, over and over again, looking for ANYTHING, while pretending to be "nice". He asks about the harness, trying to goat me into admitting I drive fast. Nice try officer...
They took about 40 minutes out of my day, and in the end it was darker, and more dangerous, for me to drive with an unlit trailer behind me. Nice, huh?
But that's what you get when you drive a bright red Corvette with a racing harness.
Parents these days are very scared of their kids. I don't have kids, but I understand it. I also think its way over-blown. Do we really need an Amber alert system where people in New Jersey can know about an abducted kid in Austin, TX? But it fuels fear. But, if I was the parent, or the police officer, I'd much rather err on the side of caution, than worry about offending some photographer or worrying if the ACLU was going to climb down my back.
A former sports shooter
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When I take shots at gatherings of family and friends, I do take candid portraits of the kids and make prints for the parents. But I never post them online, even though it's very tempting. I have a few that I would love to get your opinions on... I suppose if I wanted to badly enough, then I would ask for the parent's permission.
Remember the "why you shouldn't put your picture on the web" joke that was going around, with the portly asian kid photoshopped 50 different ways? I never wanted to have one of my shots turn into that, and once it's on the www, what's to stop it?
http://www.the-sparkmans.net/why_you.htm
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If they could not come up with that info and a child were jeopardized, or worse, because of it, there would be a lot of criticism.
Maybe we could find out how the media handle this. And be able to hand out information that proves where to find us in case of a problem. I don't know what that would be. In this day, almost everything is suspect.
If we had a simple handout, of some sort, that would reassure people.........honestly, Rutt, those photos could very easily have been taken by someone casing the area for children and opportunities.
In some of the other cases, people have been scared by Homeland Security, one of my pet peeve organizations, but "we" have been told to look for the "unusual", and we are told to report "it". We have not been told what the "unusual" is, so almost everything is.........every paper bag, every backpack, and a photographer documenting bldgs could appear unusual in someone's day.
ginger
I'm not a parent, and can't really fathom it, but I think parents are so damn overprotective these days. I guess this is a huge topic, but I'm 25 and I can remember when I used to ride around town on my bike alone, walk to the bus stop alone, and so on. I feel like I don't see kids on their own at all anymore. It's kinda sad.
Glad it all worked out well in the end.
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There have been several threads on dgrin about the subject of security and the fear of people being photographed. I have seen no discussion about the threat of civil liablity, and in Silicon Valley I would think that might also be a concern. John, I think that the large professional cameras and white lenses are worse in this regard than smaller amateur cameras too.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=2337&highlight=security
My experience shooting outside a shopping center
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=2595&highlight=security
cmr's run in with security but which veered off into a conservative/ liberal diatribe,
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=510&highlight=security
Stunt clown discusses his experience with building security AFTER he got permission to photograph from security. A good example of the guards covering his a......??
I think there is a Hollywood influence here. Hollywood always depicts the child molester photographing his victims - Been depicted in movies ( Robin William's film - One Hour Photo) and on TV in Law and Order-SVU.
I also think much of what we are experienceing is the result of the news media's constant need to find Something, Anything to capture viewer's attention and get an emotional responce from their viewers. Nice sweet stories don't do this, RAPE, MURDER, PILLAGE do get people's attention even if they are infrequent statistically.
We are inundated all day long with a constant drumbeat of how dangerous something, anything is. From exploding gas tanks in cars, to terrorists, kidnapping, and general violence, unsafe medications, etc.
Generally I think many Americans feel insecure and unsafe in their own communities, despite theat fact that statistically they are probably safer than they have ever been historically. I am not saying that there are not murders or other serious crimes, just that statistically they are relatively infrequent compared to previous historical times, particulary in affluent middle class neighborhoods.
The new media NEED to have some upsetting story or scene to depict to their viewers - otherwise their viewing adience tunes them out. How many good, positve, uplifting news stories can you think of. Micheal Crichton discusses the need of the news media to have a DISASTER every day in his new book "State of Fear!" Otherwise it is a slow news day, and not good if you are the anchorman with no news stories.
Obviously the gentleman who called the police was quite excited and emotional and not listening to you. Some primitive cultures do not like their pictures taken because it steals their soul. I was warned about this on the Navaho reservation, and the funny thing is that the Navaho guides in Antelope Canyon were the best at pointing out the best photo locations because they had already shot pictures from those sites themselves.
I will say that photographing people - children or adults - at home on their own property where there is an expectation of privacy, is something that I avoid doing myself.
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Well, I understand that view. But, we aren't told what "unusual" is, because everytime someone tries to define it the ACLU or some other liberal organization starts crying the "you can't profile" garbage. So we get stupid stuff like screening little old ladies at airports because they are the people who might try to hijack a plane.
People might not like the Homeland Security organization, but if it weren't in place, and we did get attacked on the homeland again, those same people would be complaining about why we didn't have a homeland security organization...
Sorry Ginger, but this is a pet peeve of mine too.
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But whether I like it or not, we do have Homeland Security org, as you say, if we didn't and something happened people would complain that the govt was doing nothing. I am not going to comment there.
In any case, if something bad were to happen, people would sure complain that more attention was not paid to that strange person taking pictures a day or two before the event. I think we could agree on that.
There would even be a massive search for that person.
I have been thinking and I have decided that this is just another part of life as a photographer. Different circumstances require different methods. Also, a half a day's detainment and harrassment, as annoying as it might be, it just might be the price we pay for feeling free to take photos. Especially if it is just a yearly thing. We do need to know the law. Having it with us and printed out is a good thing.
And, Rutt, how did you decide to post those kids photos? Sorry, just think that is funny.
My biggest problem is explaining why I am taking the photos and what I am going to do with them. I need that written down, then I shall write it down and be prepared to hand it out when that inevitable question is asked. Did they ask you that, Rutt? Everyone? What is the best answer when you are just going to put them on dgrin where they will never see them? I keep asking this, and I keep stumbling everytime someone asks me that.
Or we could all become landscape and bird photographers.
ginger
My reply (to which I came after various trial-and-error attempts) is:
"I'm a photographer. I'm working on a project for my portfolio. I do portraits, too. Here is my business card. Would you like to schedule a session?"
So now it's THEIR turn to answer, not mine. And since now THEIR personal money is involved (See? Now they suddenly realize that taking pictures is NOT a free service, even though I didn't say a word about my pricing:-), they need to think about it. And the more they do, the more they understand that I am actually doing some business here, in which they interfere. Which changes the whole perspective from "what am I doing here" to "wtf are YOU doing here distracting me from my job".
Never had a "followup questioning" after that. Worked every time thus far:-).
HTH
Cheers!
lol Go straight for the wallet and they shut up. Hmm I have to try that more often.
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I've never had birds complain, but landscapes bring this story to mind, Ginger, when I shot this image for the Shadows challenge I think
I had pulled over to the side of the road and just shot this when a car came up and pulled off behind me. A farmer's wife jumped out of her car and began demanding to know why I was taking pictures of her property. I gave a a blank look and pointed at the sunset, and said "Maam, look at the beautiful sunset."
She said "I'm sorry" and got back in her car and left. I guess someone else might not have been as understanding. People are jumpy for whatever reason.
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although, that might make it worse for getting kids in public... :eek1
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Gotta know what to get.
PF=Pathfinder.
Go get him, Ginger.
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