easiest way to handle tons of captions and keywords?

tnierduffy · June 6, 2006

I'm just getting started loading up my thousands of family pictures to smugmug and am fairly new to this all. Going digital has added a new dimension to my love for pics! Anyway, I've noticed conversations re: adding captions directly to the pics locally on my machine somehow and then loading them up for use in smugmug.

My question is..what is the easiest way to organize all of my pics and add captions + keywords? I use lots of captions and keywords and would ideally organize, classify, and describe my pictures locally on my machine... then upload and have that info used by smugmug. Is that possible and if so, what is the best software to use for this purpose?

Thanks!
Tamara

Mike Lane · June 6, 2006

tnierduffy wrote:

I'm just getting started loading up my thousands of family pictures to smugmug and am fairly new to this all. Going digital has added a new dimension to my love for pics! Anyway, I've noticed conversations re: adding captions directly to the pics locally on my machine somehow and then loading them up for use in smugmug.

My question is..what is the easiest way to organize all of my pics and add captions + keywords? I use lots of captions and keywords and would ideally organize, classify, and describe my pictures locally on my machine... then upload and have that info used by smugmug. Is that possible and if so, what is the best software to use for this purpose?

Thanks!
Tamara

The best software? I don't know, but I do know that Photoshop works very, very well. Just do whatever it is you want to your photos and then update the IPTC info with the caption and keywords before you save it as a jpg. Then upload to smugmug and revel in the keyword-captiony goodness.

tnierduffy · June 6, 2006

Mike Lane wrote:

The best software? I don't know, but I do know that Photoshop works very, very well. Just do whatever it is you want to your photos and then update the IPTC info with the caption and keywords before you save it as a jpg. Then upload to smugmug and revel in the keyword-captiony goodness.

Thanks, Mike! So, just to clarify, do I have to do anything in smugmug to recognize the keywords & captions, or by updating the IPTC via photoshop, smugmug will automatically include that info as keywords/captions?

Also, should I re-upload all of the pics I've already done directly via smugmug or how do I get them all in photoshop w/IPTCs if I've started this keywording process already?

Thanks again!

Cindy · June 6, 2006

Smugmug recognizes them and auto inserts them but I always go to smugmugs bulk edit captions & keywords after uploading to check for mistakes that often seem to happen.

I add keywords via photoshop but when I upload the caption area contains all the camera/capture info. Is there a way to add captions (such as descriptions) in photoshop that I'm not aware of so that when I upload the camera/capture info will not appear but instead my custom inserted captions?

Thanks.

Mike Lane · June 6, 2006

tnierduffy wrote:

Thanks, Mike! So, just to clarify, do I have to do anything in smugmug to recognize the keywords & captions, or by updating the IPTC via photoshop, smugmug will automatically include that info as keywords/captions?

Also, should I re-upload all of the pics I've already done directly via smugmug or how do I get them all in photoshop w/IPTCs if I've started this keywording process already?

Thanks again!

Each image has IPTC info attached to it from the get go. Modify that IPTC info with keywords and a description and Smugmug will understand and adjust that picture accordingly. Now, just to clarify, you don't upload just the IPTC info to images that are already on smugmug. If the pic is alredy on smugmug you'll need to use the update captions and keywords function on smugmug. But for any images that you have not yet uploaded, you can put in the captions and keywords in the image on your computer and you'll be set.

pat.kane · June 8, 2006

tnierduffy wrote:

... I use lots of captions and keywords and would ideally organize, classify, and describe my pictures locally on my machine... then upload and have that info used by smugmug. Is that possible and if so, what is the best software to use for this purpose?

Tamara, you're heading down the right path. This question seems to be getting asked with more frequency and this is a soapbox I like to get on, so I decided to start a mini-FAQ tonight (emphasis on mini!). Let me know what you think.

Image Metadata (IPTC/XMP) FAQ

Did you know that you can embed a caption and keywords directly into your digital image file PRIOR to uploading it to smugmug?

Did you know that this data will be AUTOMATICALLY used by smugmug to fill in the caption and keyword for your uploaded image?

Embedding metadata directly within an image file is a tried and proven process, pioneered by the news industry, but now in common use among other professionals and hobbyists. If you're curious, read the Wikipedia entry for IPTC (the group that got this rolling). Also take note of the collaborative effort between Adobe and IPTC that resulted in the "IPTC Core Schema for XMP."

Why would I want to do this? Here are just a few benefits of writing metadata to the files on your computer:

1. the metadata follows your image where ever you send it, e.g., to someone via e-mail, uploading to smugmug, a stock photo agency or another on-line hosting service, etc.
2. search the images locally on your computer using the metadata
3. whenever you create derivative works of the image, the metadata usually is saved in the new image
4. smugmug does not embed the on-line entries of captions and keywords back into the original image file, i.e., the time you invested in making these entries would be lost if something happened to smugmug.

OK, how do I do it?

1. gain a basic understanding of how to properly caption and keyword
1.a. for an easy read, follow the Wikipedia IPTC link above and find this article: "Guidance and techniques for tagging and keywording images"
1.b. a more advance read is The Dam Book

2. find some software that supports IPTC and ideally the XMP standard. Some examples (for the hobbyist) include:

2.a. Adobe Photoshop -- an image at a time via File Info, $$$
2.b. Adobe Bridge -- allows you to apply metadata to a bunch of images all at once, $$$
2.c. ThumbsPlus -- powerful image database, but becoming quite dated (still my tool of choice), $
2.d. PixVue -- free Windows program. I gave it a quick test drive and it seems pretty decent. (no longer available as of Feb 07. Link left in case it comes back online. Thanks gregsphotos for update)
2.e. IrfanView -- free Windows program (thanks richW)
2.f. iTag -- free Windows program. I've not tried it, but it looks decent.
2.g. Microsoft Photo Info -- free
2.h. etc. There are a LOT of programs out there (google IPTC editor). I'll add other favorites to this list as requested.

Good luck!

PaulSpot · June 8, 2006

Anybody try photoshop elements 3? Brief research seems to show it lets you drag/drop keywords onto things for quick tagging, and will write that out to IPTC (unlike photoshop album 2 or previous versions of elements). Just trying to compare all my options before I pick a few to try out.

I have a feeling some of you may have also tried out their filters... I'm sure they aren't anything compared to what you can do by hand on Photoshop if you're hardcore, but how are they for automatic? I think Andy recommends i2e for this purpose...

tnierduffy · June 13, 2006

adobe for captions/keywords - where to put keywords?
Thanks all for the info. I like the idea of being able to classify and add details on my pics locally so I can search etc later. I have a basic adobe photoshop product that came with my computer....from my initial tests, when I add captions, they upload direct to smugmug. However, when I add "tags" (which I assume to be the equivalent of keywords and seem to work the same way), the picture on smugmug does not inherit that info when uploaded.

Can anyone out there in Adobe land help? I'm thinking about buying Adobe Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements together to get started with my pics (I have a lot of pics but am a fairly basic user for family pics etc).....any thoughts from anyone who's been there done that using these products with smugmug?

Thanks a ton!

Tamara

richW · June 13, 2006

Tamara
I use irfanview. It has an image and thumbnail viewer. The thumbnail viewer allows you to do batch processing of the following: captions, IPTC, keywords, etc.
I’ve used it for most of my images without a problem.
It’s free. http://www.irfanview.com/

pat.kane · June 14, 2006

Tamara,

It sounds like you have Adobe Photoshop Album. Sorry, but I'm fairly certain that the tags are NOT written to the IPTC keyword field, which means smugmug isn't going to recognize them.

Though I've not used it, I've read great reviews about Photoshop Elements.

I also believe, though I am not certain, that Elements will read your Album tags and write them to the IPTC keyword field. There is a trial version of the Elements on the Adobe web site, so you could confirm this before actually buying the product.

Good luck,
Pat

tnierduffy · June 16, 2006

Ok, I downloaded a trial of Photoshop Elements and the captions are coming over but still no keywords via tags.

Anyone out there who can verify for me that you are using an Adobe product of some sort that incorporates tags/keywords into the picture file for uploading and recognition by Smugmug?

Also, just to confirm, if I already have pics up on SM with keywords/captions and I order a disc backup via SM, the keywords & captions are NOT included as part of the file? Has there been any talk of that as a future option?

I'm trying to figure out what to do with the many pictures I already loaded to SM and then added captions/keywords...do I start over using an Adobe type product or do I have another option to some how get that info to be used locally?

HELP! Thanks!!! Tamara:):

Andy · June 17, 2006

tnierduffy wrote:

Ok, I downloaded a trial of Photoshop Elements and the captions are coming over but still no keywords via tags.

Anyone out there who can verify for me that you are using an Adobe product of some sort that incorporates tags/keywords into the picture file for uploading and recognition by Smugmug?

Also, just to confirm, if I already have pics up on SM with keywords/captions and I order a disc backup via SM, the keywords & captions are NOT included as part of the file? Has there been any talk of that as a future option?

I'm trying to figure out what to do with the many pictures I already loaded to SM and then added captions/keywords...do I start over using an Adobe type product or do I have another option to some how get that info to be used locally?

HELP! Thanks!!! Tamara:):

Many of us upload files with keywords fro Adobe. SmugMug grabs them just fin.

Keywords that are in the metadata of your original file will be included in the backup cds or dvds.

Hope this helps!

tnierduffy · November 18, 2006

still trying to find my keyword/captions tagging tool...
I posted this thread originally and I'm still trying to find my tool of choice. Hoping one of you "experts" out there can help...please!?!?

Adding to tools listed earlier on this thread, I've looked at :
Exifer - free
Irfanview - free
Photo Mechanic - $150
BreezeBroswer Pro - $70
PS Elements 5 - $100+

What I want to do:
Find a tool that allows me to easily and quickly tag captions and keywords that will be included as part of the photo file (IPTC I assume) when I load to SM. I have thousands of pics that need to be organized with captions and keywords, but it is difficult to figure out which tools that have "tags" actually incorporate these into the file so when they load up to SM, they exist already and don't need to be re-keyed. I want to organize and tag them locally on my machine but benefit by capturing this info automatically on my SM site once loaded up.

So far, I've tried the ones that I can for "free". I've sucessfully seen captions and keywords load from Exifer, Irfanview & Photo Mechanic. I'd like to use one tool where I can pull in my photos, crop, rotate, tag w/keywords etc. all at once, that is user friendly, fast, and easy when tagging many photos.

Does this exist for $100 or less without buying more "professional" software? Does everyone just use Photoshop? Does anyone know if Photoshop Elements 5 "tags" convert to keywords in IPTC? I've spent so many hours trying to research this to get going on this project and it seems someone out there must have gone down this path before. Seems like there are products for the professionals and products for the "joe schmo user" but not anything in between...

I've done some searches here in DG as well and can't find anything so if this is out there and I've missed it, please point me in the right direction!

Thanks in advance for any help you can give...Tamara

mkress65 · November 18, 2006

You could try idimager lite. As far as I can tell, it does everything you want and its free. I believe it is primarily a DAM application, but it also allows you to do a fair amount of image modifications. I find it fast and reasonably easy to use. There are 2 additional versions (personal and professional) that provide more capability and both sell for under $100, but I find the free lite version does everything that I need it to do.

And there is always the Adobe LightRoom beta which has some DAM built into it -- but its primarily an image editor [it focuses on RAW, but also works w/ JPEG.] No idea how much its going to cost once it released.

idimager can be found here: http://www.idimager.com

LightRoom beta can be downloaded here: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/lightroom/

pat.kane · November 18, 2006

tnierduffy wrote:

...Does this exist for $100 or less without buying more "professional" software?

ThumbsPlus will do everything you asked and it's less than $100. It's becoming a little dated though and I don't know if it's the easiest program to use, but you can download a trial version and find out for yourself.

http://www.cerious.com

tweaker · November 19, 2006

Not sure if you need RAW support, but if you don't give picasa a try. Its free and the keywords get added to the files. I just checked on my windows laptop, when you drag and drop images out of picasa onto the universal unloader you will end up with keywords in your smugmug.

PaulSpot · November 20, 2006

tweaker wrote:

Not sure if you need RAW support, but if you don't give picasa a try. Its free and the keywords get added to the files. I just checked on my windows laptop, when you drag and drop images out of picasa onto the universal unloader you will end up with keywords in your smugmug.

Thanks for the tip! I actually just found out that SmugMug teamed up with Adobe Elements 5.0 to make it have a send to smugmug feature right in the product. Carried over the keywords and captions well; I'll have to compare with Picasa before I decide.

ddrager · February 2, 2007

Sorry if I am reviving an old topic

I just wanted to mention that Adobe Photoshop Elements 5 has a function called "Write tags to file" which will write the IPTC. It also supports RAW, and Canon RAW (CR2) files.

Smugmug is integrated into PSE, there is a "send to smugmug" option in it's services category. SM, you are smart to pair up with Adobe on this.

Now, I know I can send them to smugmug to a folder, and I would ultimately like to move all of my pictures to SM as a backup. However, I don't want to have to go folder by folder to upload the pictures. Also, if I go back and edit a photo from a long time ago, and add tags or what not, I do not want to have to figure out all changes manually and re-upload them to smugmug.

Is there any software out there that will sync with SmugMug?

I currently use SyncbackSE to syncronize my photos online in case my house burns down along with my backups. But this is just a raw-filesystem backup, nothing fancy.

If noone knows of anything like this - maybe it is time for me to invest in checking out the Smugmug API because that would seem like a killer piece of software to me!

Madmikey · February 3, 2007

ddrager wrote:

Sorry if I am reviving an old topic

I just wanted to mention that Adobe Photoshop Elements 5 has a function called "Write tags to file" which will write the IPTC. It also supports RAW, and Canon RAW (CR2) files.

Smugmug is integrated into PSE, there is a "send to smugmug" option in it's services category. SM, you are smart to pair up with Adobe on this.

Now, I know I can send them to smugmug to a folder, and I would ultimately like to move all of my pictures to SM as a backup. However, I don't want to have to go folder by folder to upload the pictures. Also, if I go back and edit a photo from a long time ago, and add tags or what not, I do not want to have to figure out all changes manually and re-upload them to smugmug.

Is there any software out there that will sync with SmugMug?

I currently use SyncbackSE to syncronize my photos online in case my house burns down along with my backups. But this is just a raw-filesystem backup, nothing fancy.

If noone knows of anything like this - maybe it is time for me to invest in checking out the Smugmug API because that would seem like a killer piece of software to me!

ddrager,

Check out www.carbonite.com Backs up files in background and has unlimited storage.

Mike

pigeon · February 4, 2007

Can you upload photos via Picasa to SmugMug in batch?
And, are the edits you make in Picasa retained?

-teresa

System · February 4, 2007

pigeon wrote:

Can you upload photos via Picasa to SmugMug in batch?
And, are the edits you make in Picasa retained?

Kinda, and maybe. More in this thread, but in short, yes, you can export an album from Picasa, and batch upload those pictures, and they will retain the photoediting work you did to them (because you exported them) -- but sequencing them as you had them in Picasa is currently troublesome.

If you want to discuss this further, let's do it in that Picasa thread, rather than here.

Andy · February 7, 2007

pat.kane wrote:

Tamara, you're heading down the right path. This question seems to be getting asked with more frequency and this is a soapbox I like to get on, so I decided to start a mini-FAQ tonight (emphasis on mini!). Let me know what you think.
Image Metadata (IPTC/XMP) FAQ

Did you know that you can embed a caption and keywords directly into your digital image file PRIOR to uploading it to smugmug?

Did you know that this data will be AUTOMATICALLY used by smugmug to fill in the caption and keyword for your uploaded image?

Embedding metadata directly within an image file is a tried and proven process, pioneered by the news industry, but now in common use among other professionals and hobbyists. If you're curious, read the Wikipedia entry for IPTC (the group that got this rolling). Also take note of the collaborative effort between Adobe and IPTC that resulted in the "IPTC Core Schema for XMP."

Why would I want to do this? Here are just a few benefits of writing metadata to the files on your computer:

1. the metadata follows your image where ever you send it, e.g., to someone via e-mail, uploading to smugmug, a stock photo agency or another on-line hosting service, etc.
2. search the images locally on your computer using the metadata
3. whenever you create derivative works of the image, the metadata usually is saved in the new image
4. smugmug does not embed the on-line entries of captions and keywords back into the original image file, i.e., the time you invested in making these entries would be lost if something happened to smugmug.

OK, how do I do it?

1. gain a basic understanding of how to properly caption and keyword
1.a. for an easy read, follow the Wikipedia IPTC link above and find this article: "Guidance and techniques for tagging and keywording images"
1.b. a more advance read is The Dam Book

2. find some software that supports IPTC and ideally the XMP standard. Some examples (for the hobbyist) include:

2.a. Adobe Photoshop -- an image at a time via File Info, $$$
2.b. Adobe Bridge -- allows you to apply metadata to a bunch of images all at once, $$$
2.c. ThumbsPlus -- powerful image database, but becoming quite dated (still my tool of choice), $
2.d. PixVue -- free Windows program. I gave it a quick test drive and it seems pretty decent.
2.e. IrfanView -- free Windows program (thanks richW)
2.f. iTag -- free Windows program. I've not tried it, but it looks decent.
2.g. etc. There are a LOT of programs out there (google IPTC editor). I'll add other favorites to this list as requested.

Good luck!

Pat, great posting - I added it to our wiki:
http://smugmug.jot.com/WikiHome/Pros

gregsphotos · February 7, 2007

THANKS for all the info! Apparently PixVue is not available anymore. Do you know where I can still download a copy?

Dianne · March 20, 2007

gregsphotos wrote:

THANKS for all the info! Apparently PixVue is not available anymore. Do you know where I can still download a copy?

It appears to be available at this free site:
http://www.photo-freeware.net/pixvue.php

Dianne · March 20, 2007

pat.kane wrote:

4. smugmug does not embed the on-line entries of captions and keywords back into the original image file, i.e., the time you invested in making these entries would be lost if something happened to smugmug.

Mike Lane (above) wrote:

Now, just to clarify, you don't upload just the IPTC info to images that are already on smugmug. If the pic is alredy on smugmug you'll need to use the update captions and keywords function on smugmug. But for any images that you have not yet uploaded, you can put in the captions and keywords in the image on your computer and you'll be set.

OK, I'm really confused. If I key in captions and keywords on-line in a smug gallery, do those captions and keywords get written into the IPTC fields or not?

It seems like you two are saying different things about what smugmug does.

What am I missing here?

Mike Lane · March 20, 2007

Dianne wrote:

OK, I'm really confused. If I key in captions and keywords on-line in a smug gallery, do those captions and keywords get written into the IPTC fields or not?

It seems like you two are saying different things about what smugmug does. What am I missing here?

I think the 2 statements you pulled are saying different things. My point was that if you did not put your captions and keywords into photos that are currently on your smugmug site, the only way to get them to show up in your site is to put them in via the keyword and caption tool -- though you could replace the photo too.

What pat was saying (I think) was that the captions and keywords that you enter using the smugmug tools do not actually imbed this info into the IPTC data so if something happened to SmugMug you would lose the captions and keywords that you entered even if you had backups of the photos. I'm not sure the point, honestly, because even if the images did have captions and keywords embedded in them using the smugmug tool, if something happened to smugmug you would lose the photo AND the caption and keyword regardless of how those captions and keywords are bound to the image.

HTH.

Dianne · March 20, 2007

Mike Lane wrote:

I think the 2 statements you pulled are saying different things. My point was that if you did not put your captions and keywords into photos that are currently on your smugmug site, the only way to get them to show up in your site is to put them in via the keyword and caption tool -- though you could replace the photo too.

What pat was saying (I think) was that the captions and keywords that you enter using the smugmug tools do not actually imbed this info into the IPTC data so if something happened to SmugMug you would lose the captions and keywords that you entered even if you had backups of the photos. I'm not sure the point, honestly, because even if the images did have captions and keywords embedded in them using the smugmug tool, if something happened to smugmug you would lose the photo AND the caption and keyword regardless of how those captions and keywords are bound to the image.

HTH.

OK, so the answer is that whatever captions and keywords that I add to an image that is already in a gallery is NOT written to the IPTC fields; it just exists on the smugmug gallery site. So, if I download that image, whatever caption I've added at the smug gallery level does not come with the image.

If that's correct, then the question is why couldn't online captions/keywords add to the IPTC fields?

pat.kane · March 20, 2007

Dianne wrote:

OK, so the answer is that whatever captions and keywords that I add to an image that is already in a gallery is NOT written to the IPTC fields; it just exists on the smugmug gallery site. So, if I download that image, whatever caption I've added at the smug gallery level does not come with the image.

If that's correct, then the question is why couldn't online captions/keywords add to the IPTC fields?

Because smugmug's policy is to leave your original untouched (for hundreds of good reasons I might add).

FORTUNATELY, AlbumFetcher, which is available in the SmugMug APIs, Hacks & Tricks forum, has the capability to embed the caption and keyword data into the IPTC data when you use that tool to download your images. Now you can have your cake (untouched, safe originals) and eat it too (embed the IPTC data if you so choose).

My earlier comment you quoted is now moot. My concern was that the caption and keyword data wasn't portable if it was only entered into smugmug. Adding this data to the image on your hard drive prior to upload ensured the data was in the image, regardless of how or where you used it. Now that you can get the data back out of smugmug, it makes sense to use the tools you're most comfortable with to add the caption and keyword data, whether that be locally or on the server.

Dianne · March 21, 2007

pat.kane wrote:

Because smugmug's policy is to leave your original untouched (for hundreds of good reasons I might add).

FORTUNATELY, AlbumFetcher, which is available in the SmugMug APIs, Hacks & Tricks forum, has the capability to embed the caption and keyword data into the IPTC data when you use that tool to download your images. Now you can have your cake (untouched, safe originals) and eat it too (embed the IPTC data if you so choose).

My earlier comment you quoted is now moot. My concern was that the caption and keyword data wasn't portable if it was only entered into smugmug. Adding this data to the image on your hard drive prior to upload ensured the data was in the image, regardless of how or where you used it. Now that you can get the data back out of smugmug, it makes sense to use the tools you're most comfortable with to add the caption and keyword data, whether that be locally or on the server.

I'll be checking out AlbumFetcher ASAP. Thanks for the clarification for those of us who haven't checked in recently (like me).

papajay · March 21, 2007

Ease of Use, etc. question for mass uploading keywords...
The keyword input I have done so far has been done using Smugmug's bulk editing tool...and after a bit of trial and error, I've gotten used to it (I think it's fairly quick and easy enough to use). There appear to be some worthwhile benefits to keywording/captionaing prior to uploading to Smugmug, but the thought of having to learn another software package makes my brain cramp.

Can anyone with "hands-on" experience mass uploading keywords and captions using both the SmugMug tool and any of the software alternatives mentioned elsewhere in this thread (Album Fetcher???, et al) offer a comparison in terms of ease of use, data-entry speed, mass add/replace/edit functionality etc?

Some guidance would be most appreciated.

Andy · March 21, 2007

papajay wrote:

The keyword input I have done so far has been done using Smugmug's bulk editing tool...and after a bit of trial and error, I've gotten used to it (I think it's fairly quick and easy enough to use). There appear to be some worthwhile benefits to keywording/captionaing prior to uploading to Smugmug, but the thought of having to learn another software package makes my brain cramp.

Can anyone with "hands-on" experience mass uploading keywords and captions using both the SmugMug tool and any of the software alternatives mentioned elsewhere in this thread (Album Fetcher???, et al) offer a comparison in terms of ease of use, data-entry speed, mass add/replace/edit functionality etc?

Some guidance would be most appreciated.

It's far easier to do it on your end, papa. But it depends, what software you use, if any, to process your pics.

If you don't photoshop them, or otherwise edit/touch your photos, then don't worry, be happy

easiest way to handle tons of captions and keywords?

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