The next level in motosports photography

[mercphoto]

What gets me to the next level in this stuff? I think I have the basics down. Good, crisp photos with detail, contrast and color and a sense of motion. But what gets in excessive "wow" factor?

http://mercphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/253247/2

TIA.

[maczippy]

Okay Bill,

Not sure if I qualify as an "expert" per se, but here's some thoughts.

Sharpness is key unless you're doing something artistic (and it should be easy to spot an artisitc staement vs badly blurred/OOF image). A few of the images look a little "shakey", kinda in focus but it's like the IS went a little wonky (if you know what I mean).

Get closer, if you have "air shot" of a rider, try to give reference to the height he/she attained, so always try to shoot a little lower and up and don't forget the reference.

Backgrounds. If you have scrappy backgounds think about panning to gain some motion blur to separate your subject from it's surroundings...

Try to leave a little less space around the subject, except for the direction in which the subject is "going"...

Always shoot RAW. You can do so much more with the image in post than you can with straight JPEGS that with PS CS (if you have it) that you really don't need to shoot JPEG. Becuase you have so much more latitude with bringing out the "juiciness" of an image than you could ever have with JPEG.

If you like I could pick an image an "tweak it" to show you what I mean.

Obviously it won't be the same as with a RAW/Original file but it would give you an idea of what I was jabbering on about!!

Hope this helps Bill, Andrew

[mercphoto]

Originally Posted by maczippy

Get closer, if you have "air shot" of a rider, try to give reference to the height he/she attained, so always try to shoot a little lower and up and don't forget the reference.

Backgrounds. If you have scrappy backgounds think about panning to gain some motion blur to separate your subject from it's surroundings...

If you like I could pick an image an "tweak it" to show you what I mean.

I have a small number of photos at:
http://mercphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/254597

Password is elephant. Originals are turned on, and right-click downloading is permitted. Thanks for the tweak. :)

I've noticed that panning with a dirt bike is very difficult. With a car on tarmac things are very static. Dirt bikes, both tires are always in suspension motion. The rider himself has all four limbs travelling in relation to his torso. Nothing is static for long, and I've found 1/320 shutters to be a compromise between fast enough and too fast. I still get blur in the spokes and tire tread, and yet the rest is motionless enough to be sharp.

I'm also waiting for my 580EX flash to ship, and when I do I'm going to play with fill-flash to highlight the shadow areas more. Though I have noticed the 20D and the L-glass have helped the shadow detail.

The suggestions with composition were good ones, and I will try either more zoom, or get closer, so that less environment is in the picture and more bike.

[maczippy]

Originally Posted by mercphoto

I have a small number of photos at:
http://mercphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/254597

Password is elephant. Originals are turned on, and right-click downloading is permitted. Thanks for the tweak. :)

I'll play around and see what I can do...

I've noticed that panning with a dirt bike is very difficult. With a car on tarmac things are very static. Dirt bikes, both tires are always in suspension motion. The rider himself has all four limbs travelling in relation to his torso. Nothing is static for long, and I've found 1/320 shutters to be a compromise between fast enough and too fast. I still get blur in the spokes and tire tread, and yet the rest is motionless enough to be sharp.

I understand that, but what you have to think about is what story do you want to tell? You could aim for a more stationary part of the bike, the frame for example, engine, but as an ex motocrosser myself (amateur) , there is a point in travel during "big air" that you're almost motionless and that's the point you might want to aim for to get the "money shot".

The beauty is with any sports that lap is that you'll have another chance next time round, so start slow and see what works and don't worry about getting everything perfectly sharp with the "entire subject" with a motion blur shot.

Cars are quite easy to a point, horses and riders a little bit more difficult, Motorcycles are harder because the target is smaller, but just as rewarding if you get it down.

The suggestions with composition were good ones, and I will try either more zoom, or get closer, so that less environment is in the picture and more bike.

I'll post a motion blur example in a new thread of a horse and rider at full tilt as an example...Maybe we can have a motion blur thread perhaps.

I'll post some examples about your shots tomorrow...

Andrew :)

[ysr612]

to me Bikes alway have more intensity then anyother racing.

[maczippy]

Okay Bill, here's what I did...

To give the example how I would shoot it I added a little more sky after I rotated a bit more to allow me to show you how I'd a)shoot it and b) finish it in post...

I'm not sure what your in cam sharpening is set at, however, it looks like you might want to back it off a little or turn it off all together. It's why I like RAW, I can always add it, but once the shot is done in JPEG and it's sharpened you're stuck with it....

Anyways, here's the original file (I assuming you'd do some saturation and post touch up anyways, but I thought I'd post it for a reference)



So not to worry too much about shutter speed (did you shoot shutter priority?) this is how I would've shot it and finished the shot in post:



Now, this may not be to everyones liking, but I look at this as it's more likely to sell to the rider/family/fans if it looks like it's him/her looking good (feeding the ego) or beating/racing others and in front (so it's good to try and get shots whereby you'd have the subject beside or in front of another)....

I also took some license and cleaned up the background (remove the other rider and white "things"....) warmed the image and added some more saturation and contrast to tighten it up.

But I would try to shoot the rider at this angle because it makes it look more dramatic...

Does that make sense?

Andrew :)

[mercphoto]

Originally Posted by maczippy

I'm not sure what your in cam sharpening is set at, however, it looks like you might want to back it off a little or turn it off all together. It's why I like RAW, I can always add it, but once the shot is done in JPEG and it's sharpened you're stuck with it....

So not to worry too much about shutter speed (did you shoot shutter priority?) this is how I would've shot it and finished the shot in post:

Now, this may not be to everyones liking, but I look at this as it's more likely to sell to the rider/family/fans if it looks like it's him/her looking good (feeding the ego) or beating/racing others and in front (so it's good to try and get shots whereby you'd have the subject beside or in front of another)....

I also took some license and cleaned up the background (remove the other rider and white "things"....) warmed the image and added some more saturation and contrast to tighten it up.

Cool. I shoot at shutter priority at 1/320. I adjust the ISO to keep the aperture in the neighborhood of f/8-11. AI-Servo. The camera settings are "Parameters 1", which is sharpness+1, contrast+1, saturation+1, tone 0. Sounds like you are suggesting sharpness of 0, and up the contrast and saturation one more notch. Warming could be done with tone +1.

I might try shooting RAW, but you have to drag me kicking and screaming to do so. :)

What I like most of all is your change to the composition. The crop, the rotation.

[mercphoto]

This one I might have nailed, except for the telephone pole.

[mercphoto]

Originally Posted by maczippy

I'm not sure what your in cam sharpening is set at, however, it looks like you might want to back it off a little or turn it off all together.

May I ask what you saw that made you think the sharpening in-camera was too aggressive? What should I be looking for?

[maczippy]

Originally Posted by mercphoto

May I ask what you saw that made you think the sharpening in-camera was too aggressive? What should I be looking for?

Morning!

It may be in part because I only shoot RAW only so I'm used to sharpening myself according to what is (or isn't required).

But the give away to me (and it's kinda hard to explain easily) is a look image get, not jaggies as such, but it looks "harsh" if you know what I mean.

I know I'm going to have to drag you screaming into the RAW camp but it's really not any more work per se (esp if you have Adobe PS CS).

You should try it. Especially if you're shooting with the new 20D, you might find the dynamic range more to your liking.

What ISO were you using for these?

Also, you might want to try 1/250 to start off with, that will give the tyres/spokes sufficient motion yes allow the main subject to remain crisp.

(I didn't look at the EXIF to see...)

We'll get there!

Andrew :)

[mercphoto]

Originally Posted by maczippy

It may be in part because I only shoot RAW only so I'm used to sharpening myself according to what is (or isn't required).

But the give away to me (and it's kinda hard to explain easily) is a look image get, not jaggies as such, but it looks "harsh" if you know what I mean.

I know I'm going to have to drag you screaming into the RAW camp but it's really not any more work per se (esp if you have Adobe PS CS).

I think my big problem with RAW is I don't have a comfortable workflow yet. For example, I find Canon's software for conversion easy to use in many respects. I can easily manipulate an image, move to another, then go back and change something again in a prior image, etc. I find bulk file saving and converting very easy as well, especially if I want to rename a bunch of files. I find PS/CS very clumsy in many of these respects, especially bulk convert/save/rename. The downside to Canon's SW is it is painfully slow.

So if RAW is not much more work, as you suggest, then I'm doing something terribly wrong in my workflow, because it feels like a bunch more work to me.

What ISO were you using for these?

200. I usually pick 1/320 shutter, and adjust the ISO to give me aperture of 8-11. Larger apertures and you get more critical on the focus accuracy, and bikes/cars are large objects anyway so I don't want too shallow DOF. I probably could stand to go smaller on the aperture anyway. I'll try 1/250 next time, as per your suggestion. I'll also look for times when the rider is likely to be less "jittery", such as the top of jumps, apex of corners, etc.

[mercphoto]

Ok, I practiced a lot tonight. Started at 1/250, worked down to 1/125. Took about 167 photos, kept about 21 as great pans, and another 30 as decent.




More at: http://mercphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/258270