Originally Posted by dlscott56 FREE advertising to 100+ of my potential customers that is set up in minutes (probably less time than it took to type those lengthy replies). I'm not suggesting this be your only marketing strategy or that you should use it. Of course it would be silly to BUY classified ads in a paper that no one in my market reads.

This.

The beauty of it is you make a customer happy showing them their stuff. Their friends see it and you've made multiple first impressions with one post. You'd never get those impressions with just a web site or by relying on SEO. If the friends are convinced, maybe they'll like your page or check out your website as well and the cycle repeats.

Let me put it this way.....

I try to sell my business without a facewaste page or any likes.

I then acquire ( legitimately) 1000, 10,000 or 100,000 likes.

All else being equal, would the value of my business as in it's worth on the open market be any greater and be valued higher buy a business broker with the likes than without?

I am trying to clarify if these likes have a real and tangible worth or if they are really nothing more than a brain washing in effect as something you should have but don't actually have a dollar value or definable potential to a business.

I think the crux of the to use or not use fb is somewhere in the middle of the two poles of the discussion. But going back to the original topic, it seems like contests or giveaways work quite well. I was able to ramp up over 250 likes in just over a month for a site I was hired to design with simple giveaways at like milestones.

But the likes are nothing unless people take action on the posts you post. I recently posted something that over 50% of the 'likes' audience saw--and not one bit of feedback. It's still like fishing, not like shooting fish in a barrel as the hype suggests.

Originally Posted by SamirD It's still like fishing, not like shooting fish in a barrel as the hype suggests.

Think of it more like junk or catalog mail. At least, that's they way I look at it-except it's free.

theres more to advertising than sales, its also brand awareness. for the photographers that can benefit from facebook *not glort* it makes sense. Its free, its an easy way to get your product infront of new customers and its on the same level as having a website. Using glorts logic, I bet he doesnt have a website since it doesnt increase sales or reach his target market. Most of us dont have huge swimming schools in the area so that wont do us much good. :)

For us folks that do regular portraits we need to get our brand in front of as many people as often as we can so we'll be in their mind when they need a portrait. The problem is glort is trying to convince us its a waste of time which it is for him but isnt for the rest of us. :)

The way I have been getting facebook likes is to just have conversations and questions on the fan page that people answer and then their friends see it and check the page out and also answer. Ive gotten 25 likes in the last week from trying this. Its more for fun, I know the likes dont mean anything but they do help you look more established than the other guys.

I get more business inquiries on my personal facebook page than I do my fan page. :) and I have a lot more "friends" than I do "likes" so I reach more people there anyways.

I have 2 friends and I even know one of of them. I have 3 likes.....................I'm on my way to stardom!


Sam

I am not at the point of selling my photos but have been involved with some new fb pages for nonprofits over the past year. Thought I would respond to a couple of things that cropped up in this thread:

1) Likes are important to help your status updates be seen by more people - it does affect what reaches the newsfeed for those who subscribe to your page and may be seen by their friends as well
2) I agree that if people who like your page never interact with your content, it doesn't help as much as one might hope
3) fb is very good at changing up the algorithms for people seeing your status updates and it is now harder than ever to grow organically.
4) In my experience, the non-profit fb pages that achieve the most likes are those with some budget to get facebook to push their status updates or ads. I would guess that this would apply to other fb pages for brands.

That said, people tend to respond very well to photos on fb. I will often click through to someone's website when I see an image that catches my attention. And I have now subscribed to several photographers' fb pages. If I see a photo that inspires me - in a fb status update on a photographer's fb page - I will click "like" on the particular photo in the hope of helping them out with fb stats (Insights).

I am by no means an authority on any of this, and am offering these thoughts in the off chance that they are helpful to the op or others.

Cheers,
Gretchen

Originally Posted by GerryDavid For us folks that do regular portraits we need to get our brand in front of as many people as often as we can so we'll be in their mind when they need a portrait. The problem is glort is trying to convince us its a waste of time which it is for him but isnt for the rest of us. :)

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse because my point doesn't suit your preferred agenda or you have genuine comprehension difficulty with the written word.
If you read my last post which was as simple and clear as I knew how to make it, and took from that I am trying to convince people its a waste of time, then it's clear to me you are letting other issues taint your position.

What I am asking for is someone to provide some first hand experience with the relation ship between likes on face waste and actual $$ in the bank.
You are still talking theoretical and assumptions but nothing to support that having a load of likes on Facewaste translates to an increase in business.

You seem to get narky at things I suggest you don't agree with but over look the fact that you have no idea there are other things I am working on besides what you know about that Face waste may well work for.
You also fail to read between the lines that i'm looking for an indication of the value in face waste so I can use it myself in other markets.
I don't know a lot about this social media stuff so I'm not about to go spending time on anything without having some idea or indication as to it's real and tangible value to my business.
If I can get some idea of that you bet I'll be in like Flynn on an effective free advertising and marketing medium. I'm not a person to fall for Hype and I DO look gift horses in the mouth to verify they aren't a donkey before I guy buy the saddle for them.

You seem too young to have kids but I have a son that is all over this stuff and could set me up a face waste page and work it to within an inch of it's life. That's an advantage I have but it's useless to get him doing that unless there is some sort of indication of a payoff.
That's what I'm looking to gauge but failing to see any evidence to support.

You say you get 90% of your seniour portrait work from face waste. You don't indicate how many that is though or if it's even anything of consequence. Frankly, from what I have read I don't think it is a substantial amount of work but I don't know and could well be wrong. Without some sort of indication of the popularity of face waste pages and likes to bookings and sales ( which IS what marketing and advertising is about) then I am still without any viable indication that this is as effective as the hype indicates.

I bet he doesnt have a website since it doesnt increase sales or reach his target market.

I detect a note of sarcasm in this comment but you are absoloutley right. I don't have a website because I don't think it will reach my target market or increase sales in what I'm doing atm. I think I have stated that several times in different posts here.

Can you give me a direct and specific answer as to why you have an issue with me not spending time and money in what I know would be an ineffective marketing strategy?

FWIW, I had a website for many years that ended up getting me ALL my (Substantial) Glam work and was never out of the top 3 listings in it's category on any search engine. With that knowledge of web marketing over 7-8 years, my choice not to have a site with the work I am doing now is based on experience not the mistaken belief that every business has to have a web site in order to succeed.

I know a lot of people think that and I also know a lot of people don't know beans about sales, marketing and advertising despite often convincing themselves otherwise.

Originally Posted by sapphire73 I am not at the point of selling my photos but have been involved with some new fb pages for nonprofits over the past year. Thought I would respond to a couple of things that cropped up in this thread: 1) Likes are important to help your status updates be seen by more people - it does affect what reaches the newsfeed for those who subscribe to your page and may be seen by their friends as well 2) I agree that if people who like your page never interact with your content, it doesn't help as much as one might hope 3) fb is very good at changing up the algorithms for people seeing your status updates and it is now harder than ever to grow organically. 4) In my experience, the non-profit fb pages that achieve the most likes are those with some budget to get facebook to push their status updates or ads. I would guess that this would apply to other fb pages for brands. That said, people tend to respond very well to photos on fb. I will often click through to someone's website when I see an image that catches my attention. And I have now subscribed to several photographers' fb pages. If I see a photo that inspires me - in a fb status update on a photographer's fb page - I will click "like" on the particular photo in the hope of helping them out with fb stats (Insights). I am by no means an authority on any of this, and am offering these thoughts in the off chance that they are helpful to the op or others. Cheers, Gretchen

I think these Thoughts are VERY helpful Gretchen and I thank you for them.

You do trigger a thought I have seen first hand. People may click the button on face ache because they do indeed like something but that does not mean they would ever be a customer of the vendor.

As mentioned I used to do a lot of glamour photography and specialised in figure and nude work. I would always have people lined up 3 deep or more at the shows I would exhibit at and receive raving comments on the pics but 90% of people would almost run away at the suggestion of booking a shoot themselves.

There is a big difference between liking something and wanting to own it yourself.
I like babies but the last thing in the world I want is my wife to have one!

There is no question in my mind that face waste IS a very effective marketing/ advertising tool for many businesses. That's no different to any other marketing initiative. Yellow pages works great for Plumbers and tradesmen but it's next to useless for a heck of a lot of other businesses.

I'm just looking for some trustworthy evidence that faceache is a worthwhile medium for shooters and if you do whatever it takes to get all these holy grail "Likes" they are going to translate into worthwhile $$. If they are not, then I'm better off spending my time and MONEY on something that does yield worthwhile returns.

Glort you're right about wanting to be able to measure the whole of the Social Media world.

here's a link for those wanting some semblance of metrics measurement: http://www.business2community.com/so...usiness-067356

It's title says it all. six free tools. FB has wanted for some time to be able to measure folks exposure to ad's placed on FB and whether they purchased the same in a Store or Online. Imagine how easy it would be for them to sell ad space if they could do that. Even if it were 2%. Because once you can measure, then you can actively pursue improving the ROI.

Thanks Tom.
Very interesting that there are these tools available. Also seems that very few if any people here apart fro yourself realise the importance of measuring response. Pretty clear everyone is just busting a get to get liked but have no idea what so ever if that's actually getting them anywhere at all.

I Think this paragraph from the linked page sums it up nicely but is what some of the facewaste dedidcated brigade here just don't have the knowledge to realise:

These are easily understandable common social metrics. Many companies track them. However, monitoring data is only valuable if it’s being tied to a business objective. Having 500 Facebook Fans or 5,000 doesn’t mean anything if your business goal is generate leads and you’re not measuring lead referrals from Facebook. At the end of the day, you should track metrics that align with your business goal, whether that’s generating demand for a new product or generating leads. What metrics are your measuring?

Seems few people even knew they were supposed to let alone how to measure their leads. Probably dosen't matter since they wouldn't know what to do with the data if they did.
Wonder if they actually track any of their advertising at all? I knew where each and every lead came from with my Glam and wedding work.

You HAVE to measure all the variables and parameters in your business ( No matter what business it is) or you are flying completely blind. That includes face waste.
People think it's such a good thing but have no real idea where their leads are coming from or what advertising is working and what is not.
So what if faceache is Free? If it's not getting you a valid return on your time, unless you like to use it as an ego massage tool then it's not worth a Zac as an advertising medium for your business.

I hammer on about business skills every damn week but it's clear from threads like these that some shooters think they know it all when the fact is they don't even know enough to realise their own ignorance and mistakes.

what's next for FB?
Interesting discussion on this morning's business news program:

FB stock has plummeted from the IPO price of $38 to $20 (yesterday's close). Why?

In part because FB is not adapting fast enough to its own demographic. FB, as viewed on computer screens owns a great deal of real estate for advertising - hence revenue, but the majority of traffic on FB has moved to smartphone apps where there is little or no room for advertising.

Mr. Brainiac Zuckerberg had better figure this out fast or fall victim to the next generation of brilliance who no doubt is already designing alternatives.

Originally Posted by Angelo FB stock has plummeted from the IPO price of $38 to $20 (yesterday's close). Why?

I think it's largely two reasons. The first is FB isn't registering as many new users and growth is slowing. The second is FB cannot figure out how to monetize the site. Sure, they have ads but they haven't been able to convert those to revenue easily nor have they been able to demonstrate future revenue growth.

Most analysts view declining registrations and no clear roadmap for the future as negative and have valued the stock accordingly. Myself, I believe it's time for Zuckerberg to step aside and let someone with experience run the company. Which is not to say he should leave the company; just recognize he's gotten the company about as far as his skill was able and now it's time for someone else to take it to the next level.

If faceache can't generate enough revenue to keep itself going, I have to wonder how it's going to generate anything worth while for businesses advertising on it or they are going to convert the viewers to revenue. If face waste goes down, what are all those likes going to be worth then?

Before facewaste there was myspacedout which was the be all and end all at the time. Perhaps face waste's time has come and the expiry date is drawing near?
Like Angelo suggests, All it need to knock face waste off is someone to look at the problems and usage of face waste now and design something that will cater to the current user trends and desires.

Face waste seems to have an undertow of contempt among users for it's frequent changes and requirements and if someone can come up with an alternative solution, Face waste could experience demise as fast as it has ever grown.

If I had invested time into this as an advertising medium, I'd be trying to figure out a way to cash in on those likes I had built up Now rather than later.
This could be a hiccup or a bump in the road or it could be the start of the end.

Originally Posted by ian408 Myself, I believe it's time for Zuckerberg to step aside and let someone with experience run the company.

Very true. He would take his genius to the exponential level if he'd do just that one thing. I've often prided myself on hiring folks better than me on a given task. I think it makes me look better and it has proven out over time.

Originally Posted by Glort If I had invested time into this as an advertising medium, I'd be trying to figure out a way to cash in on those likes I had built up Now rather than later.

Which of course means actually doing some F2F work.

This post got a little out of hand but let me add my .02 cents. Facebook has gotten me a lot of referrals, because I use it as a tool to branch out. I honestly havent really pushed my Facebook fan page in about a year and still have about 1400 "likes". Someone said it best, the "like" contests are great ways to get cheap exposure if that works for you. It did for me, and instead of just letting it sit there, I reached out to my new "fans".

One of the best things you can do after a shoot with someone who is on facebook, is tag them from your FAN PAGE. Basically create a sample gallery of that shoot as soon as possible, upload photos and tag your clients. The tag will come from your fan page, not from your personal page. This draws in interest, people will usually click back to their gallery and eventually your page to view your work. Put a link to your website where you are allowed, and you've basically created a chain of traffic to your website.

Another thing you can do is integrate your blog with your facebook fan page. All of my blog posts are linked to my fan page. In order for them to see the full blog entry they just click the link and voila, instant traffic. Another thing I did was use the wordpress plugin that allowed facebookers to post comments on my blog from their facebook accounts. No one wants to create an account on your blog just to post a comment.

No one, NO ONE, HAS to use Facebook. Just like no one NEEDS a website or a blog. For that matter, no one NEEDS business cards. You work with the tools that work for you. But to say that facebook is a waste of time is fodder for the birds. But just like anything in this world, if you're going to do it, do it right.

Interesting thread.

Well said AW Photo, no one needs facebook, its a tool pure and simple.

Holy gosh darn Glort, please give it a rest! Id like to give you credability, but Im sorry I cant when you call facebook face waste or what have you. It means you have a closed mind and havnt looked into all the oportunities. Im glad if your business is sucessful but your way isnt everyones way.

As a landscape photographer I have a slightly different demographic than the portrait / wedding crowd but I have friends who get most of their business through FB marketing and I have friends who make a fine living yet dont even have a personal FB account. It all comes down to how you decide to approach the market. There isnt one single way to sell something. Check out Trey Ratcliff, the man created a dynasty via FB and it now allows him to pretty much do whatever he wants photographically. That sounds like a pretty cool life to me!

As for my philosophy and my business, I use FB and am attempting to leverage it as a way to get as many people exposed to my photography and name as possible. Its part of building up credability in the online community which I can then leverage into credability during sales, showing that I am a knowledgable and well respected expert in my field. Fine art seems to be almost as much about the reputation / name of the artist as it is about the actual work. Facebook is one of my tools to help create that :)

Originally Posted by spacefuzz Holy gosh darn Glort, please give it a rest! Id like to give you credability, but Im sorry I cant when you call facebook face waste or what have you.

I'm not after credibility, I'm after an answer, however broad, to my repeated question of what these face ache likes are worth.
So far all anyone has said is a meaningless " I get most of my work from Face waste".
BFD!
That is meaningless without clarification of the other promotional methods that have been tried.
I could advertise on Face waste and Dunny walls and then say that facewaste got me the majority of my business but that means nothing.

It means you have a closed mind and havnt looked into all the oportunities. Im glad if your business is sucessful but your way isnt everyones way.

NO, it means I'm getting a bit bored with people flaming me for not being the face waste marching band leader and blindly trumpeting it's cause without them having any straight forward evidence that would be required in any real world business marketing evaluation of what these "likes" are actually worth.

AS for looking into all the opportunities, that actually made me laugh. If after all I have said that's what you think, then you ought to choose your comments a lot more carefully. What I'm trying to get some tangible evidence of is how well it works for photographers...IE, people in the game I'M in, and what those likes are worth in real world $$.

That's what any savvy real world business person would ask but I'm getting the distinct impression those with any real business marketing knowledge are far and few between here although those that are not real well acquainted with such knowledge are very vocal anyways.

Glort, Your hatred is what really shines through. I'm getting a little tired of it so unless you have something positive to add, give it up.