Finally: adding radio triggers

divamum · June 4, 2012

So I FINALLY have two flashes which can be set in manual (420ex and 580ex; still have my trusty 430ex, but it can't run in manual). I've been very happy with ETTL to date - I love being able to dial FEC up and down frankly, and it has never really let me down, except occasionally for line of sight/distance outside. So....time to be able to do some longer range firing when necessary.

PW and Radio Poppers are entirely out of my budget - not even going there.

Which leaves the assorted eBay and other cheaper triggers. Which ones would you recommend? Cheap is good, but I would like *reliable*. Also, if they don't guzzle batteries that would be nice too.

Cactus (which is the best version?)
Photix Odin (more $, but I'm intrigued by the inclusion of ETTL and wonder if, given the way I shoot, it might be worth it)
Any other recommendations?

Thanks in advance!

perroneford · June 4, 2012

I had never heard of these units. So I looked them up. I show this Phottix Odin unit at $140 (http://www.adorama.com/PHOTFRCA.html). The comparable PocketWizard 3 is $139 (http://www.adorama.com/PWP3T2.html). So why exactly do you consider them out of your price range?

ziggy53 · June 4, 2012

perroneford wrote: »

I had never heard of these units. So I looked them up. I show this Phottix Odin unit at $140 (http://www.adorama.com/PHOTFRCA.html). The comparable PocketWizard 3 is $139 (http://www.adorama.com/PWP3T2.html). So why exactly do you consider them out of your price range?

Comparable? Are you suggesting that the PocketWizard Plus III Transceiver has a TTL capability?

I think that you need a PocketWizard Flex/Mini system to perform those tasks, for more cost. I'm not knocking PocketWizard; they make wonderful and durable products. The Phottix Odin product is much less durable, but still suitable for many enthusiast and even professional shooters.

I am in agreement that manual flashes and simple radio trigger system is a very good way to start, but for a basic trigger the Cactus and CowboyStudio sets are a great value.

Art Scott · June 4, 2012

this set of triggers ( http://tinyurl.com/3whgecp ) is very similar to the ones I have been using for about 5 yrs now .... I have had no failures at this point.....the difference in what I see on these and mine are the brand name (mine are branded yong nou ) and the way one puts in the batteries, mine slide into the bottom, I like theis way better...and the fact that mine came with 1/4 inch plugs attached and the smaller plugs were adapters, now this is switched and that is better I believe all come with standard pc sync cords to be used if needed, which I had to use on my minolta cams as they have a very proprietary hotshoe...good luck.

EDIT: BATTERY CONSUMPTION - have used Duracell or energizer and in my experience the duracells way out lasted the energizers....if I could get Eneloops in AAA locally then i would go wit hthem...ut my AAA Duracells have been doing fine for the last couple of yrs and I am notorious for leaving my triggers turned on...so I have to have rechargable batts....

aktse · June 4, 2012

Preface: i use PWs.

divamum wrote: »

Cheap is good, but I would like *reliable*. Also, if they don't guzzle batteries that would be nice too.

There's a problem to your question that you and many other have asked; it boils down to "I don't/cant' afford to buy PWs, but I want the quality/reliability/range/durability of the PW"

My statement: there are reasons why working pros use PWs or skyports (built into elinchrom). In general, you can two of the three: quality, reliability, price, but you can't have all three.

The big 3rd party players on ETTL/Manuel triggers are Pixel King, Phottix, Cactus with Pixel King offering the only rear curtain option for ETTL in the canon market space. I know people who use both, and although the reliability and range is fine, both suffer from durability issues. If you treat them with white gloves, they'll be fine. If you even slightly abuse them, they will have issues and won't last (regular use might be considered abuse). I have friends that have use both and they have been replaced due to malfunction (~1 year of light use).

If you want dumb triggers, i send folks to cowboy studios. If you do some web searches, you might find other configurations are are cheaper (one transmitter, four receivers). For that price, it doesn't matter if the durability isn't that of a PW. Compared to price of small flashes, this is a small enough amount for most people to get started before they decide on their lighting point of view (big flash, small flash, brands, TTL, etc.). My friends who have bought these have seem happy and they haven't destroyed them yet.

I went with PWs because I'm a klutz and know that I will knock things over and drop things. And I have. Repeatedly :-(

Bryce Wilson · June 4, 2012

Some food for thought Diva.

I purchased a set of Pocketwizard Plus's over twelve years ago. Long before I even purchased a digital camera. The units are still in use today (often) and have been dropped, kicked etc. they have not failed even once in over 12 years. On purely cost/benefit, I'm sure I'm much farther ahead today than having to replace less expensive units every couple of years.

These original units that I have don't have the bells and whistles of the newer models but they suit my purposes just fine.

dlscott56 · June 4, 2012

About a year ago I purchased some Cactus V4 triggers. I believe you can get the set with on camera trigger and one receiver for about $50. These are strictly triggers! No ttl or anything else. I also bought 2 additional receivers and I think they are about $30 each. Use them all the time (at least once a week and many times more than that). Never misfired, however I have read of people having misfires on occasion. I replaced the AAA batteries in the receivers once during that year or more and the battery for the transmitter once. Figured I wanted to have wireless triggers for manually set Lumopro flashes and couldn't afford the better pro level stuff. I expect one day I will upgrade but am first concentrating on saving for some nice glass. Triggers can wait since the cheapies are doing just fine for now.

perroneford · June 4, 2012

ziggy53 wrote: »

Comparable? Are you suggesting that the PocketWizard Plus III Transceiver has a TTL capability?

I think that you need a PocketWizard Flex/Mini system to perform those tasks, for more cost. I'm not knocking PocketWizard; they make wonderful and durable products. The Phottix Odin product is much less durable, but still suitable for many enthusiast and even professional shooters.

I am in agreement that manual flashes and simple radio trigger system is a very good way to start, but for a basic trigger the Cactus and CowboyStudio sets are a great value.

Thanks Ziggy. I'd forgotten about that since I don't use TTL. Yes, I guess a mini/TT5 would be in order, and that would be somewhat more expensive. But honestly, it would be what... $100 more?

Yes, I am a pro shooter, and I have any number of PocketWizards, but as others here are posting, it really comes down to value. I need my stuff to work EVERY time. So I pay for that. But even as a non-pro, if I am going through the trouble to set up lights, and get everything dialed in, I don't want to screw around with my stuff "maybe" working. Especially, with a client in front of me. In the grand scheme of photography gear and costs, a hundred bucks here or there just doesn't register for me.

divamum · June 4, 2012

Thanks all, for the input. Great comments.

Here's the thing: I really like the results I get using ETTL. I've been happily using an STE2 and Canon flashes for a couple of years now, with excellent, reproducable, and reliable results. So, at this point, I'm not 100% certain that I'll be using radio triggers ALL the time; I currently envisage them being a way of expanding what I already do rather than replacing it. Now, I accept that once I have the greater flexibility that radio signals offer I may change my mind on that, but at the moment, that's my way of thinking.

So... that's why I'm thinking the smaller investment is the way to go - I'm not married to that, however; I've managed this long without radio triggers and can no doubt manage a bit longer while I save up.

dlscott, particular thanks for your reports on the inexpensive triggers you're using; that's exactly the kind of info I need at this point.

Perrenford, I think the cost difference between Phottix and PW works out to a bit more than that once you factor in receivers for 3x flash units (since if I can use ETTL, I can also include my 420ex in the mix); I think I worked out that going to the ettl-capable PW or Radio Poppers would cost me about $600 or so (it's been a while since I did the math, so forgive me if I've misremembered and/or the prices have adjusted).

Keep those suggestions and comments coming - great stuff!

perroneford · June 4, 2012

divamum wrote: »

Perrenford, I think the cost difference between Phottix and PW works out to a bit more than that once you factor in receivers for 3x flash units (since if I can use ETTL, I can also include my 420ex in the mix); I think I worked out that going to the ettl-capable PW or Radio Poppers would cost me about $600 or so (it's been a while since I did the math, so forgive me if I've misremembered and/or the prices have adjusted).

I got into the PWs because I needed remote camera triggers in the field, and a remote in the studio for my strobes. TTL was never a consideration. That was until I learned about hypersync. And that feature alone made the PWs a must have over anything else. Might not be anything you're ever interested in, but wow, what a revelation that was for me. Shooting portraits an 1/8000 of a second with speedlights. Canon's at that.

You mention the cost of the radios and the math. I guess as a pro, I consider the costs of not getting the shot in my equation. Especially under contract. If someone has hired me and paid me to shoot something for $500, and I miss the shot because my gear didn't work, I just lost the price of a set of PW radios. You have to weigh your own scenario to your own standards. When I am just shooting for myself, I still drag out lights and stands and umbrellas, and cameras and lenses, etc. When I expend that much energy, I want my stuff to WORK.

As I said, I know nothing about the other units you've mentioned. But everyone I know shoots either PWs or Radiopoppers. They stake their reputation and their paycheck on them. That says a lot to me. If someone sees your work, and LOVES it and asks you to do a shoot, will the gear you buy today make you nervous or confident on that shoot? I tend to try to look forward like that.

divamum · June 4, 2012

perroneford wrote: »

I got into the PWs because I needed remote camera triggers in the field, and a remote in the studio for my strobes. TTL was never a consideration. That was until I learned about hypersync. And that feature alone made the PWs a must have over anything else. Might not be anything you're ever interested in, but wow, what a revelation that was for me. Shooting portraits an 1/8000 of a second with speedlights. Canon's at that.

I believe the Phottix allows hss; not sure about the others (still researching).

You mention the cost of the radios and the math. I guess as a pro, I consider the costs of not getting the shot in my equation. Especially under contract. If someone has hired me and paid me to shoot something for $500, and I miss the shot because my gear didn't work, I just lost the price of a set of PW radios. You have to weigh your own scenario to your own standards. When I am just shooting for myself, I still drag out lights and stands and umbrellas, and cameras and lenses, etc. When I expend that much energy, I want my stuff to WORK.

As I said, I know nothing about the other units you've mentioned. But everyone I know shoots either PWs or Radiopoppers. They stake their reputation and their paycheck on them. That says a lot to me. If someone sees your work, and LOVES it and asks you to do a shoot, will the gear you buy today make you nervous or confident on that shoot? I tend to try to look forward like that.

All valid. In my scenarios,for what I shoot, I tyipcally have enough flexibility - and redundancy of gear (eg non-radio triggers as well) - for that not to be a huge issue. If I were shooting sports, a high-powered studio setting where the time-is-money mantra was king, or weddings where I had to catch "once-in-a-lifetime" moments under extreme pressure, then for sure I'd just go with the proven item since those situations need maximum reliability. But, even though I shoot professionally, it's not under those kinds of conditions so as long as I have backup plans (which I do in the form of my STE2 AND the built-in commander on the 7d), I'm going to be good to go

perroneford · June 4, 2012

Regardless of which way you ultimately go, please update the thread here. I deal with a lot of people new to this, and would like to have some well researched options to offer besides the PW or RadioPoppers. These threads are always VERY educational, so I'll be monitoring.

Thanks again.

ilbcnu · June 4, 2012

Diva,
I used the 7d to trigger but it wasn't working well outside or even inside if it couldn't "see" the flashes so I bought 2 Pixel King recievers and 1 transmitter off ebay. They have worked unbelievable! I have used them inside & outside with two 580exII,with an alien bee strobe and my 7d. Never had a problem - used them manual and e-ttl. One banged around on the "light stick" during a shoot still is good to go. I think I pd about $95-100 for each one.
Amanda

divamum · June 4, 2012

Are the Pixel King ones those that Matt Saville mentioned a while back? I've searched old posts to try and find the ones that are produced by a friend of his, but I couldn't track it down (hopefully he'll see this and remind me!!)

Thanks for the info, Amanda!

ilbcnu · June 4, 2012

The two main full time TTL wireless triggers I've found to be reliable and reputable are the Phottix Odin and the Pixel King triggers. Phottix actually makes very top notch stuff. I've used their batteries with my 5D MKII for 3 years and now the 5DMKIII. They still have their full power after charging even after 49.5k actuations over the 3 years and last as long or longer than Canon brand batteries (I have their model without the chip reporting life left) Pixel king is cheaper with a couple limitations but might be all you need. I can't say whats better since I don't own either personally, but I've researched reviews and specs quite a bit in case I do decide to go wireless TTL, since it is a consideration for me at the moment.

http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Trigg.../dp/B005TQFRTY

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phottix-Odin...item589359d169

__________________
www.overfocused.com
<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1; COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1>Last edited by Overfocused; Apr-16-2012 at 12:04 PM.

I don't know if Matt Saville mentioned those (do remember reading he was testing something). The above post from Overfocused is one I remember coming across when I was searching. I kept reading that you have to put some kind of sock thing over the 580exII flash with another brand & was not wanting to deal with that so I thought I would give these a try-they are so affordable in comparison to others also. Happy so far! Very easy to set up- straight out of the box, AA batteries, come with a little case and cords, when I got them I set up the flash in the bedroom and triggered it from the other side of the house in another bedroom. Have used them out on shoots quite a few times now - bright sunlight, behind a tree with an alien bee and no problems. I have not really used them in manual other then when playing around with the alien bee using a meter as I am not there yet, but have done a little so believe they will grow with me. When researching I just googled them and found a ton of reviews - most of them good. My mistake was I didn't buy all at once - I bought receiver & transmitter then went back and bought another receiver. Think I would of got a better deal buying all together.

aktse · June 5, 2012

divamum wrote: »

Are the Pixel King ones those that Matt Saville mentioned a while back? I've searched old posts to try and find the ones that are produced by a friend of his, but I couldn't track it down (hopefully he'll see this and remind me!!)

I believe they were by photographer Scott Robert Lim.

divamum · June 5, 2012

Thanks, April! I'm thinking they must be these, the Tiny Triggers (adding link for others who may be reading and looking at stuff).

Thanks Amanda for the further links - great to have some further reading.

One thing I realise as I dig deeper into this is that I am REALLY going to miss being able to adjust flash power on camera if I go 100% manual-and-only-manual. Since my main reason for getting radio triggers is to use in long distance and awkward positioning scenarios, that's actually kind of a big deal; much to think about here.....

angevin1 · June 5, 2012

Hi Diva, I've gone manual and it suits me just fine. But it doesn't suit all of us. I have bought from these folks a number of times and almost each time I had questions I needed answers to. These folks are quick to reply and very informative about their product line. Gadget Infinity: http://www.gadgetinfinity.com/pixel-ttl-wireless-flash-trigger-set-king-for-canon-580ex-ii-550ex-430ex-ii.html

I've had no issues with the products I have bought.

ilbcnu · June 5, 2012

Angevin1 correct me if I'am wrong as you do manual and I just have played with it. You can control flash power through camera can't you with the Pixel triggers?

captnemo · June 5, 2012

I've got cactus 4 triggers I've been using for a few years now and I've been very happy with them.
I wrote a little about them here:
http://thecaptainnemo.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/cactus-v4-flash-trigger/
Used them just a couple of weeks ago:

divamum · June 5, 2012

Tom, would love some more of your "user reports" <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >

Amanda, this review from Amazon suggests that you can indeed control all modes from the camera - this set are ticking all the boxes for my needs, and I'm definitely going to be reading up on them as much as possible!

===========
5.0 out of 5 stars Wow, better than expected, <nobr>March 12, 2012</nobr>
By
IDH (FL) - See all my reviews

Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: PIXEL King Wireless Radio E-TTL II E-TTL Flash Trigger for Canon DSLRs & Flashes, 1 x Transmitter + 2 x Receiver Kit (Electronics)
Having reached the limits of Canon's built in optical trigger system, I've been using less expensive radio triggers that simply instruct remote flashes to fire. All work was done in manual mode and required running around to each flash to make adjustments. I needed something that allowed me to get shooting faster.

These triggers sit in the mid price range between what I was using and the Pocket Wizards I thought I needed. These are simply awesome. For 1/3 the cost of Pocket Wizards I picked up one transmitter and three receivers. They are simple to set up and allow you to control your flashes remotely using the camera's built in flash menu. They support ETTL on Canon gear, but make note, all connected flashes fire in A+B+C mode. In manual, you can control up to three groups individually and set each flash group output from the camera menu. You can shoot in A+B+C, or A:B or A:B C. They also support high speed sync which is great for when you need fast shutter speeds to cut down ambient light in certain situations. They are reliable, simple and have changed my workflow dramatically.

They come with a nice padded case, cords and a base that's a bit larger than the standard Canon flash bases. The battery covers feel a bit flimsy, but I don't abuse my gear, so I think they will be fine. To fit the 580EX IIs on them, I had to remove the rubber weather seal from the locking mechanism, which took about 5 seconds and they are easy to replace when needed.

Battery life is great (lasts longer than flash batteries) and the indicator lights confirm the units are receiving a signal from transmitter. I am very pleased with these units.
===================

Dan7312 · June 5, 2012

If I understand your shooting context, you would prefer to use ettl, but are willing to use manual to keep down the cost of radio triggers. And you want to use radio triggers because sometimes the places you put the flashes are inconvenient to get to and optical control doesn't work. However you do have time to do setup, test and even retake a shot if need be.

Just to list a couple of things you probably already know

Shooting manual with simple radio triggers still will require you to access the flash to make or change settings.

Have you considered using a cable, like http://ocfgear.com ? Having the master or even your ST-E2, on the end of a cable, instead of on the camera, can make it easier to set things up so that all the slave flashes work. Gaffers tape over the cables helps to prevent tripping... but even so Syl Arena has said he has broken equipment tripping over cables.

divamum wrote: »

Any other recommendations?

Thanks in advance!

divamum · June 5, 2012

Good questions. To clarify:

If I understand your shooting context, you would prefer to use ettl,

It's worked very well for me.

but are willing to use manual to keep down the cost of radio triggers.

Also, sometimes it's just nice to have full manual control and keep the camera's opinion out of the result

I am anticipating radio triggers to be an added convenience rather than a necessity, although of course I may change my mind once I start using them and see that I have more flexibility/control than I have to date!

And you want to use radio triggers because sometimes the places you put the flashes are inconvenient to get to and optical control doesn't work.

And for those times when the light makes IR trickier (eg outside in superbright light), and/or when I just don't want to have to faff about with constantly moving the IR sensor on the flash every time I change my camera angle from one side or the other.

However you do have time to do setup, test and even retake a shot if need be.

The bulk of my paid shoots are portraits (indoors and out), usually adults who can take direction, and usually without serious time limits. I'm not typically shooting action sequences (eg sports/weddings/kids) where speed is my prime directive (although I think of course one should always be prepared to jump into a range of scenarios as needed, and also be as quick and efficient with gear as possible!)

Cables would be possible, I suppose, but my indoor shooting space is small, and outdoors I think they'd be a liability for me - I'm pretty good at tripping on things when I have the camera to my eye

angevin1 · June 5, 2012

ilbcnu wrote: »

Angevin1 correct me if I'am wrong as you do manual and I just have played with it. You can control flash power through camera can't you with the Pixel triggers?

Yes Amanda. Using ttl on the Pixel trigger's gives you the typical control within the Camera and/or camera menu. I liked it just fine, but simply changed my go-to brand of camera so they didn't get much use.

angevin1 · June 5, 2012

If you were Shooting Nikon Diva, I'd send you the trigger set of Pixel I own to try

I was a died in the wool Nikon CLS addict when I chose to get the Pixel trigger set. And I wanted the ttl function simply because I like to control Stuff on-Cam, like you do. I admit the manual that comes with some of my made in China stuff is lacking-some in the grammar dept...but so is msnbc. Basically I found the settings within a few moments of playing with the trigger set and they worked. Which for the price floored me!

But the biggest joy of all was not having to worry over where my IR-eye was in relation to the camera. That in itself made switching from CLS one of those questions that we all ask: What took me so long?

Good Luck!

What I use now with my Canon is Seculine twin links when I want triggers. And YonguoYN60 Flashes that trigger-from-flash when I don't want to set up triggers. When using the Yonguo's sans trigger, I mount a Nikon SB600 on the Canon to fire the flashes.

dlscott56 · June 7, 2012

Interesting timing on this Strobist post http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/06/so-lets-talk-about-knockoffs-in-photo.html about Photix triggers.

ziggy53 · June 7, 2012

I am reading some good things about Ojecoco H550 radio flash transceivers. They appear to relay TTL transparently through and including 1/250th sync. With "some" camera/flash combinations they also appear able to "hypersync" to 1/8000th. Camera models which appear to work at high shutter speeds include Canon 40D and 5D MKII and Nikon D700 (various sources and user accounts of success). I believe that they are sold in manufacturer specific models, even though they don't seem to communicate any data themselves.

These appear to only be available through EBay. There is a firm selling a 2 - unit set for $120USD. These are too new to make any serious recommendations (IMO).

http://www.lightingrumours.com/ojecoco-h-550-abolishing-sync-speeds-as-we-know-it-1490

http://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157627493192848/

http://www.flickr.com/groups/h550/

http://www.flickr.com/groups/h550/discuss/72157627508168162/

divamum · June 8, 2012

Great reading on both counts.

Icebear · June 9, 2012

Diva, if the PixelKing radios are as hotshit as they appear at first glance, they sound like a nice solution for you. That being said, PW reliability and updatability finally sold me on a FlexTT5, MiniTT1 and AC3 system. I wanted every thing you wanted for my Nikons, and had become frustrated with the limitations of CLS, and simple triggers just left me irritated. Yes, the PW set was tres cher, but oh, my, am I happy with my setup now. It's like L glass. Hurts for a little while, but the longer you have it, the better you like it.

Art Scott · June 9, 2012

I totally forgot to mention that the units I use (linked in above post), are used with: Nikon SB900's, Paul C Buff white lightning 5000's / White lightning Ultra 1800, Alien Bee 800, Sunpak Super Pro 622's and vivatar 285HV ... ... I needed a set up with various plug styles and sizes and that set was the fix to my dilemma and was recommended by that fellow from OZ... ... Gus .... never had a problem with them and they have triggered flashes thru concrete walls & floors and over 300 feet in distance .... thru the concrete walls it was a little over 50 feet and also from one floor to another thru concrete floors and walls ... .... I tested the crap out of them before I did my first shoot with them........

divamum · June 10, 2012

Icebear wrote: »

Diva, if the PixelKing radios are as hotshit as they appear at first glance, they sound like a nice solution for you.

They're top of my list at the moment. I'm not quite ready to buy, but they pretty much tick all the boxes, especially with a couple of "personal" reviews from trusted dgrinners

That being said, PW reliability and updatability finally sold me on a FlexTT5, MiniTT1 and AC3 system. I wanted every thing you wanted for my Nikons, and had become frustrated with the limitations of CLS, and simple triggers just left me irritated. Yes, the PW set was tres cher, but oh, my, am I happy with my setup now.

Unfortunately, I use a 580ex now - isn't this the setup that's had all the radio interference issues?

It's like L glass. Hurts for a little while, but the longer you have it, the better you like it.

True 'dat. That said, I buy my L glass secondhand, so the pain is minimal....

Finally: adding radio triggers

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