Feedback on Feedback?

johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
edited February 23, 2012 in The Dgrin Challenges
I'm not a regular commenter generally on Dgrin, although I have been doing the Challenges for a couple of years now. One burning question that I keep meaning to ask is "how valuable do people find feedback on their pics before Challenges"?

I see a lot of people posting ideas and experiments for feedback before they decide on an entry, but I've never done it myself. My reasoning is that much of the advice and feedback is contradictory, and I think I'd be left more confused rather than set on a particular image. That isn't a criticism of the feedback by the way, just an observation of how we all see things differently and have pet likes/dislikes.

It is maybe easier to be objective with technical criticism, there are after all lots of "rules" about photography. But most of those rules are regularly broken very successfully, and we'd be restricting ourselves horribly if we only stuck to rule books. Photography is an art not a science.

Unless an image is badly flawed technically, big smudge across the middle or painful composition for example, I tend to judge photos purely on the WOW factor. How does a shot move me, is it boring, cliched, does it leap off the screen/page at me? What affects me in these ways may well not do the same to someone else, which is what makes photography so difficult to judge. An image judged by one person alone is bound to be subject to their personal prejudices, so a wider spectrum of criticism/feedback should be useful. So after all this rambling I come full circle, how useful do people find the pre-competition feedback?

Comments

  • ghinsonghinson Registered Users Posts: 933 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    I think it is valuable. There may be contradictory advice. There may be criticism that I do not agree with. There may be nothing but reassuring praise. But it's the conversation that helps. Unless you hear what others say about what you're doing, it is hard to grow.

    Two problems here, however. 1) Since the challenges are submitted as something of a contest. It's hard (for me) to give negative criticism when I am entering my own photograph. I am trying more and more to help with photos that I think could be improved. And 2) learning how to critique a photograph is likely as hard, if not harder, than taking a good photograph. I participate in this local photography club where most of the other members are professional and trained. We do critique sessions. I was much more intimidated to critique than to be critiqued. But this is how we learn.

    What makes a photograph a great photograph? Consensus. Period.
    uosuıɥ ƃǝɹƃ
    ackdoc.com
  • dniednie Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,351 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    just my 2¢...

    I find it hugely helpful. Many times there are things about an image that I just flat didn't notice, that stick out like a huge thumb when someone mentions it. I appreciate the chance to fix it before I notice during voting.
    There will always be a difference of opinion. I try to look at all of it, try the different suggestions and then go with what I LIKE. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't When it comes down to it, it is my photo, no one else's. Some are great, some are duds... some that I thought were duds did great, some I love got were failures votes wise. But critiques have taught me way too much for me not to take advantage of the expertise in this forum and ask for help.
    Sure rules are meant to be broken, but it better be amazingly broken usually. The WOW factor usually comes from the fact that the rules that make a photo so appealing were followed. When I first learned about the "Rule of Thirds" I looked back through the things I had been shooting before that. My favorites were ones that fell into the rule without me knowing. They generally are more pleasant... but no, not always. Sometimes you want the dead center composition for the impact, but again, it better be amazing.
    So, yes, in the end, it all comes down to what you like, but I have learned too much here to not post before entering a challenge.
  • WhatSheSawWhatSheSaw Registered Users Posts: 2,221 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    Both giving and receiving feedback have been a major part of the learning process I have gone through here. My family and friends have noticed the improvement in my photos.

    It has sometimes been confusing receiving contradictory feedback. That was part of the learning process, too. It has helped me to develop my internal compass.

    As far as the competitive part of the challenge, every one of us will have different opportunities during the challenge period. Some of us will have more time available or amazing light and weather. The theme will inspire some of us and leave others flat. If I help someone else improve their entry, I may lose the challenge (or maybe not). But what I get from giving feedback outweighs that risk.

    The feedback is what keeps me coming back.
  • Troy RaymondTroy Raymond Registered Users Posts: 171 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    I also never posted much, and never posted a photo before entering in a challenge. Then just only a few months ago it hit me... Sure, I want to take photos that interest me, however, what I understand now is the consideration of what other people will be drawn to, how to relate to them. Is my photo something that will get attention from the majority age group that will be viewing it.

    The last couple of challenges were a test for myself having only placed between 7-20 after voting in previous challenges. I created an image for the 'people'. The standard challenge was won with my "Old Memories" entry, which was a strong image itself, but posted it anyway as a bit of a 'tutorial' to gain interest. Now being eligible for the Mega "Album Cover SP" I chose a country theme because it is what most of our generation would be interested in listening to. Posted it to get reactions, and added some humor from the shoot to keep interest in its creation. I won both of these back to back. It was the only challenges I posted images for before the entry which further helped my understanding of 'what people want'. It is not always what you want. (originally I was thinking a "Quiet Riot" theme with a straight jacket, until I considered other people... get my point?)

    My shooting has now changed to "What people would want", but I do keep it within my realm of interest.

    Not everyone will like any given photograph, but there is a way to win the majority, and I now understand how.

    How do I vote? The WOW factor is part of it, but I also look at the time spent in preparation, traveling, long hours waiting for the perfect time, attention to detail and actually pulling it off well. Creativeness in post processing... and one of the most important things... Does it tell a story? (is there meaning or is it just a picture)

    What I don't like is a standard snapshot that only took a few minutes of thought.

    If I see something that can be improved I will comment on it in a positive way and make suggestions. If I believe it has no potential I may suggest something completely different, but do it in a positive way.

    Troy thumb.gif
  • JennJenn Registered Users Posts: 1,009 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    In the beginning it was really hard for me to understand the critiques, but after a while I understood them more and more.

    I've really appreciated the different individuals who took the time to help me privately on occasion, too, because I got to ask questions that I thought would probably sound too dumb to ask in public! Laughing.gif
    Jenn (from Oklahoma)
    Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
    Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
  • silversx80silversx80 Registered Users Posts: 604 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    I've been much more active in the past, both with posting preliminary entries, and posting comments. With how busy I've been the past year, or so, I try to lurk as much as I can. When I have something to say that I feel is meaningful to me, potentially helpful to the entrant, and mostly when that coincides with my time, I post up. A lot of times I'd like to post a comment, but either don't have the time, the words, or someone else has already said it. I've learned a tremendous amount here, by participating and asking for feedback, and truly wish I had more time to post and receive feedback.
    - Joe
    http://silversx80.smugmug.com/
    Olympus E-M5, 12-50mm, 45mm f/1.8
    Some legacy OM lenses and an OM-10
  • PedalGirlPedalGirl Registered Users Posts: 794 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    I find the feedback helpful in a number of ways.... sometimes someone picks up on something I didn't and that is very helpful. Sometimes a simple tweak that was suggested really makes a difference... sometimes not... but I always learn something. Sometimes I have several ideas to test out... sometimes I go with the majority of "votes" and sometimes not but it's always interesting to get other peoples opinions. Both receiving and giving feedback has helped me grow. In the end I want to enter the best photo I can.

    As far as conflicting advice... I just sort through and see what makes sense to me. :)

    The side benefit is the conversation and getting to know my fellow dgrinners.
    Pho-tog-ra-pher (n) 1. One who practices photography 2. one obsessed with capturing life with their camera. 3. One who eats, sleeps and breathes photographs. 4. One who sees the world in 4x6.
    www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    Wow thanks for all those respones, I didn't expect so many so fast!

    The consensus seems to be that it does pay to ask for feedback, maybe I'm just talking to the converted wings.gif
  • endurodogendurodog Registered Users Posts: 183 Major grins
    edited February 21, 2012
    I'm pretty new to all of this and I have to tell you I really appreciate the feedback on my stuff. I also read the feedback on others to get ideas. While there is contridicting ideas I feel it's just other perspectives and I like hearing everyones angle. So many different thoughts and visions. Thanks to all those that give the feedback.
  • bbjonesbbjones Registered Users Posts: 234 Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    First of all, this is a great conversation to see happening here.

    My take is probably a little different than most others who have posted so far. I was entering contests for a while, with a tiny bit of success but not a whole lot. I was often surprised at which photos did well -- they usually weren't the ones I voted for. I thought maybe it was just my own bias towards my own shots, so I sat out some challenges, so I wouldn't have a dog in the fight. Again, I found that many of the photos I thought were really good, did poorly; while the ones that won I often found to be some of the weaker entries.

    I thought Troy's response was interesting, in that it is kind of the opposite of how I'm feeling. I don't mean that as a criticism -- I actually did vote for Troy's MC entry. But I'm not trying to do what other people would like. I'm trying to do what I think is good, but do it better. Both require criticism from others, but it's a different kind of criticism. And while I've definitely gotten some really useful criticism on some of my stuff, I'd have to say that a lot of it has been in the direction of "here's what to do to make more people like it" rather than "here's what to do to make it more effective at what it's trying to do." I have the luxury of doing this as a hobby, so I don't have to sell anything. I'm grateful for that, and certainly don't begrudge anyone trying to make their work more saleable.

    And ghinson is spot on in saying that giving a really good critique is hard to do. Getting good at critiquing helps you understand what you are trying to do, also.

    So, I'm actually a bit frustrated. While I love how the folks on dgrin are so supportive and encouraging, I've had trouble finding "kindred souls" who value similar things that I do in a photo.

    Hope that didn't sound too whiny. rolleyes1.gif
    The goal of my photography is is the effective, original communication of a feeling expressing truth, beauty, or love.

    www.photographyjones.com
  • endurodogendurodog Registered Users Posts: 183 Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    bbjones wrote: »
    First of all, this is a great conversation to see happening here.

    So, I'm actually a bit frustrated. While I love how the folks on dgrin are so supportive and encouraging, I've had trouble finding "kindred souls" who value similar things that I do in a photo.

    Hope that didn't sound too whiny. rolleyes1.gif


    I'm with you on seeing things a bit different than the masses. I'm often suprised at what finishes well and what finishes down the rung. I have one photo friend not on this board and he often reminds me that as a hobbyist your photo only has to please you.

    But I still value the input of others and the different view of any of the photos. Learning tons thanks to those that take the time to comment. It's up to any of us on how we choose to use that new info.
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    Well my thoughts so far are that I am still unsure whether or not to post images for feedback, although I completely accept that it can be very useful. For those who don't know me some background might be useful. I have recently started my 5th year of posting on the Smugmug Daily Community, so I am used to lots of feedback, although most of it is very friendly and non-critical on the Dailies. I've also been scratching a living from my photography for a few years, so I know how people like/dislike a wide range of images. I also know how people have personal prejudices for/against certain types of photos, and how some slavishly follow rules while others willfully break them. Photography is an art, and incredibly complex one. As a person I see complexity and grey areas everywhere, I struggle hugely with fundamentalism of any type, or attempts to simplify anything into right/wrong, good/bad etc.

    In the Challenges my work seems to polarise opinion quite a lot. I've had a lot of top 5 places, a 2nd on a Mega, and lots of my entries have also bombed badly. I don't get many mid-place results :)

    I also often find myself disagreeing with the voting, so I assume my tastes aren't always "populist", but this is neither a good a bad thing, it just is what it is. I couldn't imagine myself producing work just to please other people, unless they are paying me of course, which probably isn't the right attitude for competitions. I am my own worst critic, and am always trying to improve my skills, so I do welcome constructive criticism, even if I disagree with it sometimes.

    Competition critiques are very different to a general critique of an image, because you have to take into account a theme as well as the individual merits of the image. I know I've bombed on at least one competition because my image title completely threw people, I found that out through feedback, and it was something I'd never previously thought about. I'm slowly working out that there are people who are on a similar wavelength to me re. photography, and others who are on a different planet entirely, but this is life in general too.

    Time is a huge issue for me. Time to critique the work of others, time to comment generally on Dgrin, time to get to know other Dgrinners, etc etc. But thanks again to everyone who has taken part in this thread. Whatever our differences we all share a passion for photography, and that is a very good thing wings.gif
  • ghinsonghinson Registered Users Posts: 933 Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    bbjones wrote: »
    So, I'm actually a bit frustrated. While I love how the folks on dgrin are so supportive and encouraging, I've had trouble finding "kindred souls" who value similar things that I do in a photo.



    2 thoughts here.

    1. Maybe your participation has helped you come to the realization that what you're trying to do is a bit different than what others make popular. That would be a good thing to know and one value of your participation here. In our local arts community, I have a friend that shows at the same gallery that I do. She is an excellent fine arts photographer, is technically very sound, produces nearly perfect prints, is well-trained and even lectures on photography. Then there's me. I have no training. Have a very populist style. Produce landscapes that are almost hyper-realistic, nostalgic, and have a little more of a wow factor. In the gallery, I outsell her (not that there are many photography sales anyway). But her work was chosen for a solo show at a well-known museum of photography in Boston last year. What this means is, do what you do. Find your style. If it results in personal satisfaction, a few gallery sales, or a museum show, it's worth it. And it is all good when it is just a hobby!

    2. I've noticed that the challenges are a little bit of a popularity contest. If there are two images that you are equally drawn to, and one of them is from someone you know, who has participated for a while, and hasn't had a win, and was submitted after you helped form the image via pre-challenge criticism, you vote for that image. So submitting something for critique, participating in the community, helps with votes. Is that bad? No. Who cares. It's not like there are cash prizes. It's all about the learning. About the interaction and participation.
    uosuıɥ ƃǝɹƃ
    ackdoc.com
  • Troy RaymondTroy Raymond Registered Users Posts: 171 Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    I like to categorize right/wrong, good/bad into: "would I spend money to have that hanging on my wall?" deal.gif

    and that is generally my thoughts to how I vote too...

    This is also what I consider while voting, forgot to mention it above.

    I would also like to comment on how honest this group is here, I have personally witnessed other 'contests' getting out of hand with member voting used for judging. Not once in the last several years that I have participated here have I seen it happen. Great group of people! thumb.gif
  • JennJenn Registered Users Posts: 1,009 Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    I don't know how many times I just wanted to give up trying when I'd see the comments on my images... It wasn't because of what they said.. it was because I felt like I failed myself... I couldn't get it right... or couldn't figure out what the people wanted to see. I wanted to create images people here would like, but then again I should like them, too. For a while I just put down my camera and really didn't try, but that ended up being just the break I needed, and when I started up trying again I wasn't so hard on myself and then the comments people gave didn't bother me .. I started to actually see different things people were talking about. PLUS a few people gave me some private help along the way pointing me in the right direction so I could learn more of the basic rules and how to put that into an image. :) If it wasn't for the people here being patient and willing to help me I would have given up a long time ago. You guys know who you are... :D I won't embarass you by naming names.. mwink.gif

    I just have a small rinky dink of a camera, but I'm learning how to make the most of it. Some day when I grow up Laughing.gif I'd like to have a much better camera where I can change lenses and even pursue macro photgraphy more, which is something I really love, but can't really do that well with my current camera. I also love taking landscape photos, the out doors ... buildings... I'm not great at taking portraits, tho! :D

    I just want to say a deep and heartfelt thank you to everyone here.
    Jenn (from Oklahoma)
    Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
    Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
  • PappyRootPappyRoot Registered Users Posts: 174 Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    I love your question. I feel it is a question everyone should ponder.

    In my humble opinion we are placed here on earth to help each other. And to learn from each other. To me it is more enjoyable to be able share what knowledge I have and learn from others to add to my knowledge base. When I as a newbie to photography get different or conflicting input I really enjoy trying both inputs to see what works for me. Sometime the conflicts just means that what works for one dose not work for the next. I have also found that I might take a little from this idea a little from that one and a little from my idea and come up with one heck of a finished product.

    So, I find all input as valuable.

    Thank you so much for this thought provoking thread.

    Love & Prayers
    Darryl
    Sometimes, it is better to be kind than to be right. We do not need an intelligent mind that speaks, but a patient heart that listens. Unknown
    *************
    irpappyroot2.photoshop.com
    My flickr Account
  • bbjonesbbjones Registered Users Posts: 234 Major grins
    edited February 23, 2012
    I like to categorize right/wrong, good/bad into: "would I spend money to have that hanging on my wall?" deal.gif

    and that is generally my thoughts to how I vote too...

    I think right/wrong is best thought of in terms of, "Is this more, or less, like what I'm striving to do?" If we can't ever say we did something wrong, we never learn how to do better. You can't have a better without a worse. In art, however, we don't have to insist that our "better" has to be everyone's "better."
    ghinson wrote: »
    2 thoughts here.

    1. Maybe your participation has helped you come to the realization that what you're trying to do is a bit different than what others make popular.

    That's a great point, Greg. It certainly has. However, don't sell yourself short as a "populist photographer." mwink.gif
    The goal of my photography is is the effective, original communication of a feeling expressing truth, beauty, or love.

    www.photographyjones.com
  • lkbartlkbart Registered Users Posts: 1,912 Major grins
    edited February 23, 2012
    I would agree that the feedback is great here, and has helped me tremendously with choosing or improving my entries for the contests when I ask for comments in the forums, and the comments in the galleries are also helpful after the fact to give me a better idea of why my shot did well or not. Sometimes it can be a bit confusing, but usually that can be chalked up to different tastes. I usually don't like to post a thread for comments when I don't have time to comment on other threads & the past few months have been extremely busy for me so I haven't been commenting much. Many times the feedback will give me an idea of how my shot will do in the voting, good or bad, so I'm not as surprised with the number of votes it receives. And getting votes is awesome, but getting a nice comment from a someone whose work I respect & enjoy is something you can't get from a vote!

    And then there's the comment that makes you realize how much your personal life shows through in your photos. Billseye, part of your comment on my entry this time ("evoking a dark and mellow mood") made me realize what a funk I've been in lately - very busy with year end & taxes (should be working now), my lost kitty (still missing) & other personal stresses have been weighing on me. Definitely a dark & mellow period in my life! I'm sure that is why I chose to enter the darker moody shot over other shots I took with different & brighter lighting, but would not have realized it without your comment.
    ~Lillian~
    A photograph is an artistic expression of life, captured one moment at a time . . .
    http://bartlettphotoart.smugmug.com/
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