I'm fairly new to SmugMug and have been avoiding all of the work I need to do to make SM a truly useful partner in terms of fully integrating the functionality of SM with my existing website. These changes scare the hell out of me and make we want to run the other way. I don't want to start into a site customization using tools and codes that may very well break next week or next month. In fact, this long, protracted roll-out of un-needed features and UI enhancements makes me question using SM at all.

Your recent changes in the URLs for my images is a real pain in the neck. In the past if I wanted to change the size of an image displayed on my website or on a forum I only needed to change the size "code". Now it needs to be changed in two places. It's poorly thought out changes like this that have me very worried.

I think your team needs to put down their cameras long enough to take some courses in project design and planning as well as some reading on evolutionary changes that remain nearly transparent to all.

Seriously guys, I think SumgMug is a pretty useful tool as is. Facing a long, protracted roll-out has me seriously considering looking into other, similar services.

I would much rather see time and effort spent in letting me display panoramas; or better still, better tools for selling digital downloads with hooks to popular stock libraries; adding direct support to industry standard file formats like TIFF, PSD, and popular RAW formats. I recently needed to send my publisher a PSD -- I couldn't do it using SM.

I think you guys need to rethink this whole thing.

Just reflecting on the proposed changes
reflection

A question on the /goodies 'join' function, please. I clicked join on www.smugmug.com/goodies as well as on mydomain/goodies and saw that things had changed. I then logged out of my account and went onto mydomain (as if I was a visitor). It was still in the new style (as I noticed when I was logged in).

I thought that if I clicked 'join', that this would only be visible to me when logged in and not regular traffic to the domain, or did I miss something?

Originally Posted by AperturePlus A question on the /goodies 'join' function, please. I clicked join on www.smugmug.com/goodies as well as on mydomain/goodies and saw that things had changed. I then logged out of my account and went onto mydomain (as if I was a visitor). It was still in the new style (as I noticed when I was logged in). I thought that if I clicked 'join', that this would only be visible to me when logged in and not regular traffic to the domain, or did I miss something?

The new gallery style will be seen by everyone once you click "Join".

Some quick observations:

• Facebook Like button only? I'm assuming this is just temporary, but the tweet and share features too. I'm not sure if they're buried in the Share link. I didn't explore it completely.
• Navigation and monitor size. 1024x768 is still a very common resolution, especially with my visitors. In the old SM, part of the photo was cut off at the bottom, but the navigation was at the top. In the new SM, the photo is center stage, but unless someone scrolls, they miss all the navigation arrows, like buttons, etc.

Originally Posted by SmugDesigns The new gallery style will be seen by everyone once you click "Join".

I don't believe this is true - it is based on a cookie.

The OP either needs to go back to the smug page linked in the first post of this thread and click "Leave" or clear the browser cookies.

--- Denise

Originally Posted by SmugDesigns The new gallery style will be seen by everyone once you click "Join".

No, this is just a preview for the site owner only. The new gallery style has not been "released" yet for existing account holders.

Originally Posted by AperturePlus A question on the /goodies 'join' function, please. I clicked join on www.smugmug.com/goodies as well as on mydomain/goodies and saw that things had changed. I then logged out of my account and went onto mydomain (as if I was a visitor). It was still in the new style (as I noticed when I was logged in). I thought that if I clicked 'join', that this would only be visible to me when logged in and not regular traffic to the domain, or did I miss something?

That may be because the cookie is still on your computer. Try a different browser that you haven't clicked Join on. Or, clear your cookies.

Originally Posted by SmugDesigns The new gallery style will be seen by everyone once you click "Join".

NOT true It's only for you - your visitors won't see the new style if you click "join" on the goodies page. This is a tool for you only to preview the new style.

Originally Posted by Andy NOT true It's only for you - your visitors won't see the new style if you click "join" on the goodies page. This is a tool for you only to preview the new style.

Hi Andy - then why do I see the new style when not logged in as per my previous post on the last page? Is it a cookie issue?

Originally Posted by SamirD Some quick observations: Facebook Like button only? I'm assuming this is just temporary, but the tweet and share features too. I'm not sure if they're buried in the Share link. I didn't explore it completely.

• You will find them under the share icon

  Navigation and monitor size. 1024x768 is still a very common resolution, especially with my visitors. In the old SM, part of the photo was cut off at the bottom, but the navigation was at the top. In the new SM, the photo is center stage, but unless someone scrolls, they miss all the navigation arrows, like buttons, etc.

Hm, this is my windows machine, set to 1024x768 resolution.

Originally Posted by AperturePlus Hi Andy - then why do I see the new style when not logged in as per my previous post on the last page? Is it a cookie issue?

Yes, your browser is still cookied for the new style - go to /goodies and click "leave" or clear your cookies and you'll be back on the old style.

Originally Posted by jfriend No, this is just a preview for the site owner only. The new gallery style has not been "released" yet for existing account holders.

Okay... thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by Andy Yes, your browser is still cookied for the new style - go to /goodies and click "leave" or clear your cookies and you'll be back on the old style.

SmugMug really needs to put more explicit instructions for seeing the new look and leaving it, both here in the first post and on that "Join" page. It's too confusing, as evidenced by all the questions here. Even just putting much better instructions directly on the "join" page would sure make it so we don't have to keep 2 or 3 windows open to figure out how to do this. Especially this sentence on the Join page: "If you use a custom URL, hit 'Join' on www.smugmug.com and on your custom domain, too" I went to www.smugmug.com & there was nothing, just the usual homepage of Smug. "... and on your custom domain, too" means nothing understandable. How?? Is the question we're left with.

Just please tell people exactly where they need to go-- show them how to put the /goodies thing into their link (on the Join page especially!) so that they don't have to fish all around. I did not, and still do not, know whether I really needed to go to 2 places or just one, if I have a custom domain. I found it eventually, but not through your instructions but through JFriend's more clear ones, after wading through the thread. Probably there could have just been a link to this on our control panels or homepage rather than all the going back & forth between DGrin & SmugMug?

Originally Posted by Andy You will find them under the share icon Hm, this is my windows machine, set to 1024x768 resolution....

You have very little up top though, and if you have keywords they're not showing either. But anyway, here's my question about that screenshot: As I said, my most visceral reaction to the new design, besides all the things I do like about it, is that the thumbs are so tiny & numerous (making no more space for a larger preview). On your screenshot, you've got only 4 rows of 3 thumbs, and they're definitely much larger than what I'm seeing. My screen, in all the galleries I checked so far, shows 5 rows of 6 thumbs, and they're very tiny. I don't know my screen's resolution. I think it's a 21-inch. I realize there can be some difference between screens... there was before as well. But this is a severe difference, and really messes up the look of some of my galleries. I don't see any advantage to it at all. I've seen other sites with that look, but I hate it when thumbs are so tiny as to be useless. If I'd wanted that look, I'd have gone elsewhere. Now that I see this screenshot, I'm hoping that the tiny lots of thumbs showing on larger screens aren't here to stay. [ETA: Just to be perfectly clear with great clarity ( ! ) ... since this was not understood later in this thread : the 4 rows of 3 thumbs in the screenshot was a good thing!!! The tiny thumbs on my screen are not a good thing!!]

Originally Posted by onethumb This post left blank for future FAQ.

Hey guys, we will start updating the FAQ soonish, now that we actually have a lot of frequently asked questions.

In the meantime, rest assured that we are actually reading and internalizing this discussion. I want to jump in front of a few questions though and clear a few things up right away.

First, lets jump right into Customization. That is the biggest fear it looks like, and understandably so. A few things I can answer right now:

- When talking rollout, we plan to allow you to opt-in and start customizing long before we make the big switch. I believe jfriend was worried about this, with others getting access first. Won't happen. We want to give you as much time as possible to get everything set. Our basic idea right now is to allow you to customize against the new style and see it as owner-only (your customers would get old style, old customization). Once you are ready to go, you can then opt in fully... or just wait for the official switch over. Sound sane?

- The reason we aren't talking specifics on customization yet, is simply that there aren't hard details yet. Why? Because we haven't talked to all of you guys yet, and so we haven't set the rules in stone yet. We have brought customizers in, and talked through our plans, but we haven't yet covered all bases obviously. Expect separate discussions in the not-too-distant future centered entirely around customization. We want to make sure we know what you are doing, and we want to make it as easy as humanly possible to migrate. We will have lots of resources, lots of help available. We have lost a lot of sleep over this. The whole reason to do this is that customization will be WAY more robust and powerful. We just want to make sure the migration isn't harder than it needs to be.

For the purpose of this discussion, since we don't even have customization enabled, lets focus on function. :)

Some concerns I am hearing that I can (sorta) address:

- Gallery descriptions (and captions). We hear you. It is very unlikely that we can allow full HTML in these fields the way we have in the past, but that doesn't mean we can't do more than we are doing now. We really hoped to make this easier by having a Rich Text Editor when editing descriptions. That editor wasn't up to snuff, so we yanked it for now until we can make it awesome. I am optimistic we can do this before we ship, but we still want to improve the core functionality of the Description.

Sounds like we probably need to address truncating the Description. Right now, I think we are leaning towards trying it with no truncation at all. That doesn't mean you can still embed Youtube videos in your description, but it does mean we won't hide your poetry. :) Suffice to say, this isn't set in stone. This is exactly why we are previewing this long before launch.

- Other authentication methods for comments? We don't want anonymous comments, but Facebook isn't the only one offering authentication services. No promises here, their APIs have to be robust, and they have to have enough customers to be worth it.

I know these discussions are getting heated. We love the passion, but we know it intimidates some would-be commenters. We are also always listening over on our help desk. I promise it will get as much consideration as anything posted here. :)

My .02:

- I love the fact that SM is working to make things more awesome based on customer feedback. Naturally this process requires a helluva lot of work and it presents opportunity/challenges galore. We will all make the best of it, I'm sure.
- Regarding all of the 'ohmygosh-this-simply-won't-do-for-my-custom-configuration' comments, I'm comforted by the idea that this change will be implemented in phases; I presume there will be some opt-in or opt-out toggles to assure that existing customizations aren't pooched. That said, even with my customizations, I may consider wiping all my existing changes to rebuild from scratch in the new world. I'll admit that re-inventing can be invaluable. Not to mention much of my customizations are tweaks to tweaks and now that I have an idea of what I'd like, it can be done cleaner and faster the second time around.
- I'd love to see a proposed timeline of the rollout; are we talking in the magnitude of days or weeks or months or ... ; as some have commented, it would be comforting to know when these changes will be closer to impact. Right now, I see it as a quick-glimpse of what's to come.
- All in all, I'd say that I prefer the new look to the old, and I'm excited for what's coming down the pike!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by codyjbennett My .02: - I'd love to see a proposed timeline of the rollout; are we talking in the magnitude of days or weeks or months or ... ; as some have commented, it would be comforting to know when these changes will be closer to impact. Right now, I see it as a quick-glimpse of what's to come. - All in all, I'd say that I prefer the new look to the old, and I'm excited for what's coming down the pike! Thanks!

Oh yeah, I knew I meant to add one more thing to my post above. Timeline!

We are definitely talking months. Quite a few months. Even if all the feedback here was 100% positive and thought we nailed it exactly ( ), we still have a lot of work to do. Even when we feel we are done, and are switching non-customized people over, it will still be months for customized people unless they specifically opt-in. We want to give everyone time to really get ready.

We will definitely do our best to keep everyone updated as we transition through phases towards launch. When we have really concrete ideas on the launch of this, you will hear it. :)

Originally Posted by WinsomeWorks You have very little up top though, and if you have keywords they're not showing either. But anyway, here's my question about that screenshot: As I said, my most visceral reaction to the new design, besides all the things I do like about it, is that the thumbs are so tiny & numerous (making no more space for a larger preview). On your screenshot, you've got only 4 rows of 3 thumbs, and they're definitely much larger than what I'm seeing. My screen, in all the galleries I checked so far, shows 5 rows of 6 thumbs, and they're very tiny. I don't know my screen's resolution. I think it's a 21-inch. I realize there can be some difference between screens... there was before as well. But this is a severe difference, and really messes up the look of some of my galleries. I don't see any advantage to it at all. I've seen other sites with that look, but I hate it when thumbs are so tiny as to be useless. If I'd wanted that look, I'd have gone elsewhere. Now that I see this screenshot, I'm hoping that the tiny lots of thumbs showing on larger screens aren't here to stay.

Anna Lisa - that was at 1024x768, a miniscule resolution these days. We show the same thumbs as we do now at that resolution.

Here it is at larger resolution, you can see, bigger thumbs, bigger main image.

Thanks for dropping in Ben with some useful thoughts.

Originally Posted by Ben Hey guys, we will start updating the FAQ soonish, now that we actually have a lot of frequently asked questions. - When talking rollout, we plan to allow you to opt-in and start customizing long before we make the big switch. I believe jfriend was worried about this, with others getting access first. Won't happen. We want to give you as much time as possible to get everything set. Our basic idea right now is to allow you to customize against the new style and see it as owner-only (your customers would get old style, old customization). Once you are ready to go, you can then opt in fully... or just wait for the official switch over. Sound sane?

My interpretation of OneThumb's post was that new account holders and people without customization would have immediate access to the new styles and people with existing customization would have to wait awhile while you finished figuring out how to deal with people who have customizations. That, I thought was broken since the very people who could help people with customization wouldn't have access. If you're saying that my interpretation of what onethumb wrote was not correct, please clarify.

Originally Posted by Ben - The reason we aren't talking specifics on customization yet, is simply that there aren't hard details yet. Why? Because we haven't talked to all of you guys yet, and so we haven't set the rules in stone yet. We have brought customizers in, and talked through our plans, but we haven't yet covered all bases obviously. Expect separate discussions in the not-too-distant future centered entirely around customization. We want to make sure we know what you are doing, and we want to make it as easy as humanly possible to migrate. We will have lots of resources, lots of help available. We have lost a lot of sleep over this. The whole reason to do this is that customization will be WAY more robust and powerful. We just want to make sure the migration isn't harder than it needs to be. For the purpose of this discussion, since we don't even have customization enabled, lets focus on function. :) Some concerns I am hearing that I can (sorta) address: - Gallery descriptions (and captions). We hear you. It is very unlikely that we can allow any HTML in these fields the way we have in the past, but that doesn't mean we can't do more than we are doing now. We really hoped to make this easier by having a Rich Text Editor when editing descriptions. That editor wasn't up to snuff, so we yanked it for now until we can make it awesome. I am optimistic we can do this before we ship, but we still want to improve the core functionality of the Description.

Losing the ability to put arbitrary HTML into a gallery description is a massive loss of functionality. No rich text editor is a suitable substitute for what people are doing today. It's like I had a racing bike and you just gave me one with training wheels and told me it should work just as well. Well, it works fine for someone who needs training wheels, but not for someone who's moved beyond that and wants to climb up Old Page Mill Road to Skyline (Bay Area cycling reference). First of all, do you understand that this is a massive loss of functionality. Second, since I assume you don't just rip out massive functionality for the fun of it without some sort of reason, please explain your logic. Third, unless you're downgrading Smugmug's capabilities into just a photo site that can't be fully customized any more, please explain how people will do fully custom HTML pages like they have been doing for years. If you want to calm the alarm, explain your thinking here. If you're not going to reveal things then the noise will just get louder and louder because it makes no sense to us to lose such functionality.

Originally Posted by Ben Sounds like we probably need to address truncating the Description. Right now, I think we are leaning towards trying it with no truncation at all. That doesn't mean you can still embed Youtube videos in your description, but it does mean we won't hide your poetry. :) Suffice to say, this isn't set in stone. This is exactly why we are previewing this long before launch.

Limiting to single line is fine as a display option, but downright silly for all my galleries. I never want this. Why should the site owner not get to decide this? Why in the world would you ever force this on us. It's our gallery display, not yours. The gallery description is what you gave us for communication with our viewers. Why would you force it to be truncated? If we want to limit it to one line to preserve gallery screen space, we can choose to. But, if we have a multi-line message we need to convey, then we NEED to be able to do that. I feel like there's way too much in this new release that's trying to force us into making things the way you think they should be rather than allowing us to have them the way we want them. I get that some people shoot themselves in the foot when you give them control, but Smugmug has always been a site that let us control how our site worked, not live only by your restrictive rules that you've decided are best for us (we can go to Zenfolio for that). If you're changing your philosophy here, then get ready to lose some customers. You should give us smart defaults so people who don't know what they are doing get good gallery display, but let us decide how it ultimately works so if we have a preference, we can implement it ourselves.

And, why can't we embed a YouTube video in the gallery description? Explain yourself. What has ever been wrong with that? There are existing customers who embed the JFriend HTML5 slideshow in the gallery description now, links, images, complicated HTML. Why take that away? Look at this site. If you take away HTML in this site, you will have literally ruined his entire web site and probably thousands of hours of customization.

Originally Posted by Ben - Other authentication methods for comments? We don't want anonymous comments, but Facebook isn't the only one offering authentication services. No promises here, their APIs have to be robust, and they have to have enough customers to be worth it.

Google would be an excellent choice. If you wanted to cover the bases, it seems like including Google, Microsoft and Yahoo along with FB would pretty much get everyone. I would personally much rather use Google than FB because I trust Google's technical chops more than I trust FB not to goof up with security or with access to my data. With Android phones taking off out there, a ton more people have Google logins than used to. Yahoo is probably on the decline, but there are still a lot of active Yahoo and Hotmail email accounts.

jfriend- Don probably just explained it poorly. We definitely plan to let you opt-in to the new style when you are ready. This will allow you to have two sets of customization, one for the old style that is still active. One for the new style that is only used when opted in. You will be able to play with this to your hearts content, and then fully opt your site in when you are ready.

Obviously for that to work, we have to finalize the customization specs. I suppose it is possible we are ready to roll out the gallery style to non-customized sites before we have customization really locked in. That isn't our intention though. We are still a few months away from this most likely, and speculating on stuff we haven't actually built yet. But our intention is to absolutely let you switch to the new style the very second you are ready. Hopefully right at the same time all the non-customized people get it. :)

Using gallery descriptions for purposes not intended creates a lot of technology problems, and functionality problems. It breaks feeds, searching, etc. We want descriptions to be descriptions.

So what are we planning to do about the problem? Well the no-brainer solution to a lot of the problems (including the link you included) is to actually allow real HTML pages. Instead of jamming all this stuff in a field not intended for it, we will build pages to do this exact sort of thing. Seems like a better solution, no?

But there are use cases here in this thread, and others we haven't seen yet, where people want something on an actual gallery page. In those cases, we are hoping/planning to allow sandboxed "widgets" on the gallery page. Nothing is finalized here (or else you would be playing with it), but our intentions for this would be allowing you to do all sorts of custom stuff on your gallery pages. Just not in the description.

Again, our intentions and goals are MORE customization. By building it properly, we can do far more powerful things in the future. If descriptions are just used for descriptions, we can improve the description feature without breaking youtube embeds. Likewise for the widgets you will be able to build on your page. By separating their functionality, everything can be far more robust.