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Groupon, just say no.
cdonovan
Registered Users Posts: 724 Major grins
Groupon, poopon.
Photographers, just say no. No only does it in the end, end up costing you money to fulfill your sold orders, it invites the type of clientele that follow the deals, not the artists.
And, an interesting scam today, a photographer offering up a session for $65. Upon closer investigation of the website, it was noted that several of the images were that of other photographers :huh. Does say much for the integrity of groupon either. :rolleyes
Photographers, just say no. No only does it in the end, end up costing you money to fulfill your sold orders, it invites the type of clientele that follow the deals, not the artists.
And, an interesting scam today, a photographer offering up a session for $65. Upon closer investigation of the website, it was noted that several of the images were that of other photographers :huh. Does say much for the integrity of groupon either. :rolleyes
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How could you possibly hold Groupon responsible for policing businesses? How do you know the "other" images were not contracted or licensed? Furthermore, if you're going to offer any sort of special, how can you not expect deal seekers to want to participate if they're offered a coupon?
You sound bitter more than informative.
Re : The scam this afternoon. I watched the whole scene "go down" this afternoon. They were images that she popped into her portfolio, that were from a number of different photographers, one that I actually know. She used other peoples work to make herself look good, they were not licensed.
But please, don't take my word for it that groupon sucks the life out of photographers, and other local businesses as well.
google it. Here's a recent article.
http://www.retaildoc.com/blog/groupon-worst-marketing-business/
Cool my jets? Seriously? I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims.
The article you present as "evidence" sounds more like a disgruntled customer more than anything. Who set the terms? Were they discussed and agreed upon before the offer was made? None of that is present in the article. I'm sure the terms of payment, the terms of the "coupon" and all other matters were also discussed in a contract prior to the offer ever having been made.
The lesson here is not that this person signed up with groupon and got screwed it is that they did not read and comprehend the terms of their agreement. Further, the complainant did not correctly calculate the value of what she agreed to sell.
No offense but that's not Groupon's fault. Groupon is in business to make money (just as anyone who is in business should be). What "Kim" should have done was been better prepared. She wasn't and got burned.
Do I feel sorry for her? Maybe a little but really, she needs to accept responsibility for entering into an agreement that ended up costing her money because she didn't fully read/understand it.
I'm still not understanding how this photographer thing you brought up is Groupon's fault.
The article that I linked to isn't evidence, it's a blog.
But seriously, if you don't agree with me, as I said, google it.
Then of course, there's the GroupOn discussion that followed.
In the discussion, Josh from Groupon did say that they were refunding money for all the orders:
So it appears that Groupon did the right thing at great expense to themselves. So I'm still having a hard time why you're bashing Groupon.
Had you supplied any corroborating links or information in your initial post, it would have been easier to understand what it is you were trying to convey.
Their offers could not be simpler or clearer which is why my company decided against contracting with them. They require a 50% discount on product or services and they also take a commission on each sale made through them. For some businesses this is a boon but the business owner needs to have full command of their inventory, their traffic, etc.
As a consumer I've enjoyed a few of the offers.... a new membership at Huntington Gardens, which I would not have bought otherwise (no loss to the organization), several restaurant offers, cupcake offers (mmmm cupcakes). In speaking to the business owners in each case they had no problem with the offers. Of course they were smart and offered things that were only part of larger packages so their "hit" wasn't devastating.
.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
At no time did she blame Groupon but instead the source of the issue - the unethical photographer from Atlanta. Looks like Groupon took the high road.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
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Picadilly, NB, Canada
My gripe is... Some people think it's a great marketing gig, especially photographer! Look through the photography offers, a lot of them are offering a shoot and all your images on a disk for very minimal amount of money. For example the one in question from yesterday. $65 was the cost, and right off the top, groupon takes half. So, you are paid just over $30 with no way to make any add on sales. I think that photographers, new ones especially, get caught up in the end number, and don't realize that, in the end, it has actually cost them money... sure they were busy, but that year of business actually cost them!
I'm still not understanding why you're bashing Groupon. "Once they found out". Sounds to me that once they did find out, they did the right thing. Did you expect they'd know earlier?
And as far as great marketing gig, that's up to the participant to decide. As to no way to make add on sales, I'd argue that's up to the business to convert the Groupon sale into a repeat customer. And if you get caught up in the end number then shame on you--these aren't Groupon's "fault", they are the business owner's responsibility.
If you're going to be in business, you need to understand what it costs to do business. If you don't and you lose money you will eventually go out of business, whose fault is that? Offering discounts, special packages or whatever is a business decision and cannot be made lightly.
Exactly my point. Thank you.
Is there a specific document photographers should reference when deciding what they charge for their work? I see this mentality on here time and time again..."you're selling too cheap"..."you are destroying the industry"..."you need to charge more". It's 100% up to the individual to value their work and sell/give/pay others to take their photos and not the rest of the photographers out there to determine for them.
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If you want to be a professional photographer (actually make a living taking and selling photographs) then you must charge enough to cover both all of your expenses and have enough left over to live on. If you do not then you will either be using funds from savings or another job to finance your photography. The more popular you get the more money you will lose. In the digital age it is even harder to price because many of the expenses are large upfront expenses (camera, lenses, software, etc.) vs film and processing costs in the film age that were more per job dependent. You then have to estimate how many jobs you will get each year which is tough to determine for someone new to the business. There are ways to keep expenses down or be more efficient which can yield a profit while charging less but if you simply charge less than you spend you will be in a hole pretty quickly.
Sure it is up to each to determine what they will charge but if you don't charge enough to make a living then it is just a hobby that you are paying for from somewhere else vs a career that pays you. That's fine for many people if they are not interested in photography as a profession but the real problems start when someone thinks they are charging enough and bring down the market for a year or so (often bashing the prices of those who charge what they need to) until they figure out that they were way underestimating expenses and go out of business. In the meantime customers become accustomed to unsustainable prices.
You seem to take great issue with other peoples marketing practices even when they have nothing to do with you.
Clearly you have insecurities about your own business and feel easily threatened by others and are very quick to complain about what, in your personal opinion, isn't what you think is right.
I suggest you would do a lot better to put less time into being a morals watchdog and more time into developing your own business and thinking like a business person trying to make a profit rather than a customer with a chip on their shoulder against photographers.
I
I think many here are devaluing Groupons contribution to the promotion and sale of merchandise / services. If you or I had their customer list we wouldn't need or benefit from their involvement, but we don't, and they do.
You do however need to understand your costs, and what you are trying to accomplish with your sale / promotion.
Offering a sale or promotional price even at cost can be profitable if you can secure a percentage of the people taking advantage of the promotion as new and continuing customers.
Service orientated business will probably benefit more than a merchandise business.
Example: If the retail price of a product is $100.00 the retailers cost will typically be around 50% or $50.00 in this example. If the retailer is offering 50% Off and then Groupon is also taking a portion of the coupon sale the retailer would then be selling the product at less than cost. Not normally a wise choice, unless your with the government and can make up the loss with other people's money.
I have a call in to them to learn a few more specifics. I will let you know what I find out.
Sam
Do I hold Groupon responsible for the theft of my images? Absolutely not.
Did they do the right thing by refunding all of the scammed buyers? Yes.
For me though, it needs to go further. I feel that Groupon, especially for photography services, needs to have a tighter "vetting" process. They should have a built in workflow for properly accessing the businesses they are publicly promoting via their sites, and in turn, making a profit from.
Had Dana Dawes not been caught yesterday, Groupon would have directly profited in excess of $40,000....in no small part on the backs of myself and other photographers.
Bitter? Hardly....but not so naive to think this isn't happening in other cities as well.
Groupon called and apologized to me, but for the sake of our industry as a whole, I hope they put some measures in place to prevent this from happening again.
I don't want it to seem like I have a hate on for groupon, or photographers who choose to use it, and I'm not judging or questioning their morals haha
I'd love to know how someone can remain in business filling up your calendar for a year of shoots at an income of (for example) $33/shoot.
I'm sure that there are lots of companies who get great value out of groupon, but, I know the opposite is also true.
Goupon had a good reaction when another photographer recognized a picture that had been posted in her portfolio, to me, as a consumer, that is kind of like closing the door after the cattle got out. Sure, the cattle came back... but only because the farmer down the road noticed the problem. Shouldn't companies taking part have to provide some type of documentation to show that they in fact are legit?
Who is responsible, what is groupon going to say/do, how would they react, if after the fact, it had been determined that this lady was a farce. I use this as an example, because we know it happened, I am sure there are tones of others in other "professions" that are running their own version or her scam. What protection does groupon provide to make sure that the consumer is protected?
Thank you Tanya! This is point that I'm trying to make!:D
There simply no reasonable way a company like Groupon can research each and every company that advertises with them. I think photography would be very difficult. Can you tell me if any images on my website were not taken by me?
On today's Groupon they are featuring a restaurant, with a photograph of a food dish. Do you know for sure if that dish was prepared at that restaurant by their cook? Do you know for sure there wasn't any special preparations like spays, steam, lighting, photoshop? Is the size portion as served or is it enhanced?
Sam
And I'm not so sure its often done, period, with any industry. Roughly 18-19 years ago I was selling some home-grown software I wrote and I took out small ads in several highly focused magazines. None of their advertising sales people ever vetted me or asked for any sort of proof that I really did sell what I was attempting to advertise.
Caveat emptor.
A former sports shooter
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Good point. The local newspaper or radio or tv station is the same. All they care about is that you have the means to pay their bills. Aside from that? Definitely Caveat Emptor.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
Right now, I can advertise my services in the daily news paper, craigslist.com and any number of other places including my own website. There is no requirement on behalf of anyone to determine whether I am "legitimate" or not. On the other hand, I can get most of what I need with respect to licenses, etc. for a few hundred bucks and be a "legitimate" business. Even if I spent $1,000 for all that was required, it's still a pretty good return on investment if I pull the scam alleged in this article. Who would be responsible for that? Can Groupon then say they did their part and it's your loss? Maybe Groupon should add a caveat that says "avoid scams ...." like Craigs List does?
At what point to you become responsible for making spending decisions? Maybe doing your own research beforehand?
From what I've seen so far, Groupon did right not only by those customers who purchased the coupons but also to those professionals Dana Dawes allegedly stole from.
There certainly is an argument that says that this business owner didn't think out the marketing strategy very well, but it also looks like Groupon does a pretty hard sell too.
http://www.danalphotos.com
http://www.pluralsight.com
http://twitter.com/d114
But I would be careful and give my offer alot of thought. I wouldnt over sell it so that I wouldnt have to take 2 years to fullfil the orders, I would limit each session to a mini 15 minute session, and I would only offer digital products to keep the cost down.
I think if done right, this could be very profitable and doesnt have to take years to fullfill.
And for those working minimum wage retail jobs, stepping away from that job and doing a groupon deal that nets them $20 an hour for a guaranteed 2000 hours would probably be a great thing.
Sam has said it spot on just a few posts above. We can agree to disagree, but it sounds like borderline price fixing if you insist on others charging more to simply sustain your own business. You should be happy others are charging so little...less competition as they disappear after going bankrupt.
Perhaps my first post came in a little strong. I'm by no means saying that no one should use groupon, I'm just not satisfied personally with how they have things setup. I would purchase a groupon if it was from a well known, reputable business, like say, a hotel chain, or a nation wide retail store, short of that, no, I'm not satisfied enough as a consumer that I could trust what I was buying.
In regards to the "photographer" who got caught yesterday. Her groupons were selling based on the stacked portfolio that she placed on her site and no doubt because of the rock bottom cost. So, as one of the effected photographers states above, groupon stood to gain a huge check because of it... how is that legal? If this had gone un-noticed and not reported, what rights would the actual photographers have had?
Sorry Sam, I'm not sure if you saw the actual offer that was being purchased yesterday, but it's a common theme on groupon, where the photographer offers a session, and the full resolution edits on a disk, so there is no chance for add on sales, unless you are able to rebook someone at your regular price.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Their overhead is tremendous. Sending 280 million emails a month is not cheap, nor is having a staff of 170 employees. They are like any other business, charging what they feel is the market rate for their service. I decided it wasn't right for my photography business, but I do see high relevance for my day job and we are exploring how to best leverage their platform.
The OP hit the nail on the head in one aspect, Groupon is definitely for the Deal Followers - that's the whole premise of the service. Before you bash on the companies that fill that niche, or the consumers themselves that fall into that category, I would recommend you do some research into consumer behavior online, and the demographics of the various types of people who use email and social media sites. If you don't understand your consumers, you aren't going to do well anyway. There is plenty of research out there, just start searching. Maybe start by going to Twitter and following the #et10 hashtag for a start. I think the other issues from the OP have been addressed well, no point in getting into that any deeper. FWIW, Groupon is the fastest growing company ever - naturally they are going to have some critics.
I am passing this on to a friend of mine at Groupon, we'll see what they have to say.
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
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Once again. How is this Groupon's responsibility?
The facts are:
- That photographer engaged in a contract with Groupon to provide a service, which Groupon did.
- When it came to light this may not have been on the up-and-up, Groupon refunded all purchasers of the Groupon and Groupon got nothing (except maybe a black eye).
- They made an effort to call at least the affected party and apologize. Which they really didn't have to do.
- It's up to a business owner to make decisions about pricing, contracts and the like.
The actual photographers have legal recourse against the photographer who stole their work. Groupon didn't steal their work.I think it's time to let this go.