I need 580 EX II help!!

fashioncop · April 16, 2010

Hi,

I am having the hardest time understanding how to set my external flash to not be so bright and use it as a fill for shadows. I am at race tracks taking pictures of teams, drivers etc. The people usually are inside a garage with the sun shining nice and bright. I usually get the people lit up but my background is blown out. I also have teams on pit lane and they are under an easy up and the of course it is usually sunny. Can anyone help me understand how to light the people but not overexpose the background?

thanks,

Melissa

ziggy53 · April 16, 2010

Do you have any examples that show the problem?

Do you use the FEC to regulate the flash contribution?

Do you use HSS/FP mode to allow higher shutter speeds to help control ambient exposure?

What shooting mode do you use? (Program, Auto, Shutter Priority, Aperture Priority, Manual?)

rwells · April 16, 2010

Put your camera in manual mode ~ set shutter speed to max X-sync speed ~ Use a low ISO ~ adjust ambient via aperture ~ now turn flash on ETTL and let it do it's thing ~ adjust FEC to taste

> ambient is now how you want it, and your subjects are exposed correctly

You might want to spend some time here: www.planetneil.com

fashioncop · April 16, 2010

When I am taking these pictures I don't have much time to mess around with settings before I loose the shot. The guys are working and they don't stay still for very long. Trying to shoot in Manual mode doesn't work. I try to shoot in AV or TV mode (depending on whether or not I want to set my shutter speed). I try many things when I am there, but it always seems the situation changes each time and if I use the same setting from one garage to the next or from one pit to the other the picture doesn't come out right. I can either get a great sky and a dark forefront or I can get the guys talking, working etc. and a blown out sky. I have tried Program mode, but I haven't had much luck with that either. I am trying to post pictures to show.

I'm not sure I understand what the first 2 questions you are asking, your talking to a portrait photographer gone sports car racing photographer a.k.a strobe studio lighting to outdoor natural/flash lighting.

ziggy53 wrote:

Do you have any examples that show the problem?

Do you use the FEC to regulate the flash contribution?

Do you use HSS/FP mode to allow higher shutter speeds to help control ambient exposure?

What shooting mode do you use? (Program, Auto, Shutter Priority, Aperture Priority, Manual?)

fashioncop · April 16, 2010

Thanks for the help, but I need something else besides manual mode. Thanks for the website. It might help me achieve what I need.

rwells wrote:

Put your camera in manual mode ~ set shutter speed to max X-sync speed ~ Use a low ISO ~ adjust ambient via aperture ~ now turn flash on ETTL and let it do it's thing ~ adjust FEC to taste
> ambient is now how you want it, and your subjects are exposed correctly

You might want to spend some time here: www.planetneil.com

pathfinder · April 17, 2010

Like Randy suggested - camera in Manual mode so YOU can choose how you want the background exposed, with the 580ex in ETTL, and the flash will expose the subject properly via ETTL. You probably will want to turn on High Speed Synch so that you do not over expose the sunlit background as the flash will otherwise limit your shutter speed to no faster than 1/250th or so.

I use this technique for shooting backlit subjects with flash and it works great.

If you feel the need to use Av you can, but your background exposures will vary more, and you may find your shutter speed dropping way down too far to try to expose the background via ambient light.

I wrote about the EOS flash system a while ago and several of the links are at the top of this thread

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=70330

A running discussion of EOS fill flash that Antonio and I had is here - http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=66367&highlight=Pathfinder+fill+flash

When I first began using fill flash in sunlight I though I would favor Av also. But what you find, is that using the camera in Manual mode lets you have direct control of the amount of ambient light for the background, and the flash in ETTL will correctly modulate the flash output to give the correct exposure for the subject, and the flash output can be modified as well via Flash Exposure Compensation. This lets you drop the background 3/4 to 1 1/2 stops under exposure with the subject nicely exposed - just like stage lighting.

It really does work well and is quick and easy to do as well. Randy was giving you very good advise.

angevin1 · April 17, 2010

Perfect links for a new Canon Owner! Or an Old Canon owner...

New: Canon

Not New: me~:D

fashioncop · April 17, 2010

Let me ask you this then. When I have the camera in Manual mode and the flash set to ETTL and I need to focus on the subject that is in the shade do I need to point my camera at the sunny sky to get a reading and then qiuckly move it back to the shade changing the settings for the sun and shooting in the shade? So I really need to have it set for the sunny area but shoot it in the shade?

I read this tip in Pop Photo: When mixing flash and ambient light, adjust flash exposure with the aperture, and ambient exposure with the shutter speed. Can anyone help me understand that? What mode do I set my flash in, and how would I adjust my flash exposure with the aperture? I am thinking my camera would have to be in manual mode.

pathfinder wrote:

Like Randy suggested - camera in Manual mode so YOU can choose how you want the background exposed, with the 580ex in ETTL, and the flash will expose the subject properly via ETTL. You probably will want to turn on High Speed Synch so that you do not over expose the sunlit background as the flash will otherwise limit your shutter speed to no faster than 1/250th or so.

I use this technique for shooting backlit subjects with flash and it works great.

If you feel the need to use Av you can, but your background exposures will vary more, and you may find your shutter speed dropping way down too far to try to expose the background via ambient light.

I wrote about the EOS flash system a while ago and several of the links are at the top of this thread

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=70330

A running discussion of EOS fill flash that Antonio and I had is here - http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=66367&highlight=Pathfinder+fill+flash

When I first began using fill flash in sunlight I though I would favor Av also. But what you find, is that using the camera in Manual mode lets you have direct control of the amount of ambient light for the background, and the flash in ETTL will correctly modulate the flash output to give the correct exposure for the subject, and the flash output can be modified as well via Flash Exposure Compensation. This lets you drop the background 1/-1 stop under exposure with the subject nicely exposed - just like stage lighting.

It really does work well and is quick and easy to do as well. Randy was giving you very good advise.

ziggy53 · April 17, 2010

Both of these images would have benefitted from the use of manul mode to control ambient light exposure and FP/HSS flash mode to allow a higher shutter speed than the normal flash sync speed.

Since you have the Canon 580EX II flash you will need to use the menu to set the flash to FP/HSS mode. Refer to page 17 of your user manual or the PDF file located here:

http://media.the-digital-picture.com/Owners-Manuals/Canon-580EX-II-Speedlite-Flash-Owners-Manual.pdf

I suggest turning the flash off and setting the camera to manual mode. Determine the proper ambient light background exposure by setting your aperture to allow the desired DOF and shutter speed adjusted until the exposure meter is showing a proper exposure for the conditions. You may want to take a test exposure to check that the background is properly exposed. (The subject exposure will not be correct of course, because you will be using the flash to provide the subject exposure.) Make a mental note of the required shutter speed.

Now turn on the flash and set the flash to HSS/FP mode. Once in that mode the flash LCD will show a "lightning-bolt-H" symbol, like you see in the instruction manual. Now set your shutter speed on the camera to the speed required by the ambient exposure taken above. Take a shot and adjust the FEC until the subject is correctly exposed. Note that a flash modifier may be required to make the subjects look more "professionally" exposed.

Practice the above until you can perform this operation in just a few seconds and then practice how to compensate for changes in the background ambient exposure, like when a cloud rolls in and reduces the background exposure. (You just lengthen the shutter speed a bit.) After a while all of this will become second nature and seem very natural.

You use a very similar technique when you shoot in bright sun with a backlit subject and front flash.

rwells · April 17, 2010

I don't want to further confuse, but...

If you enable HSS and your subjects are in a really dark area and/or some distance from the flash, or you need decent recycle times, or are using power robbing modifiers, you need all the power your flash can muster at your beck and call. This means NOT in HSS mode as the flash is only pulsing in that mode.

Hence my original advise for the stated scenario:

"Put your camera in manual mode ~ set shutter speed to max X-sync speed ~ Use a low ISO ~ adjust ambient via aperture ~ now turn flash on ETTL and let it do it's thing ~ adjust FEC to taste

> ambient is now how you want it, and your subjects are exposed correctly"

OK, here is specific reading for your questions:

Metering techniques

Why use Max X-sync speed? - This one is ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT to understand!

Good Luck!

pathfinder · April 17, 2010

Randy, I know that you know that I understand the limitations of HSS, and the advantages as well. Nothing in life is free, not even High Speed Synch!

The one thing that will trip folks up with flash out of doors is that if you set your camera in Manual mode to 1/800th at f5.6 at ISO 100, which is the correct exposure for a sunlit subject, and you then turn your external shoe mounted flash on without HSS, when you press the shutter to take the picture, the flash resets the shutter speed to the highest allowed shutter speed - typically 1/200th or 1/250th of a sec - and promptly overexposes the subject badly. UNLESS the photographer understands that the shutter speed was slowed down by the flash, it is easy to be confused and think that the FLASH over exposed the subject, not the ambient light due to the longer ( unset and undesired ) shutter speed. The next step is they dial in negative FEC and find it does not help at all. Only when they figure out their shutter speed choice is being saboataged by their flash do they figure things out. I know this is true because I've been there. HSS prevents this confusion.

Yes, HSS costs a bit a light from the strobe, and when more light is needed, turning off HSS will help.

One of the advantages of the 550ex, 580ex and the 580ex II over the 420, 430ex, 430ex II is that the 500 series Canon speedlites accept the external battery packs. Out of doors, at a function, the external battery pack is a great help keeping the flash capacitor charged and ready to fire.

Randy, that is a great link about why avoiding HSS can be valuable, but one does need to know when it can be quite helpful as well.

jeffreaux2 · April 17, 2010

Join this on-going discussion on fill flash.....

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=164683

...and

HSS is a must have, but if you want to get a full power burst from the flash you HAVE to keep the shutter speed at or slower than the native synch speed. Rather than full manual, aperture priority will work (not what Id use) and you can use drop the ISO or stop down the lens to slow the shutter down.

PF is right though......without HSS engaged, the camera will revert to synch speed (1/250?) with the flash.

Manual exposure is easier than you think.:D

rwells · April 17, 2010

You guys are making this more difficult than it has to be for the OP to grasp. We all know there's more than one way to skin a cat, but after helping many, many of our 300+ Strobist members at both educational meets as well as shoots, I've found that photogs trying to get a grasp of the concepts invarably find it easier to initially only having to deal with one variable for ambient, and one for flash. The method I posted earlier does this. Only having to adjust the aperture to control the ambient setup-up like this. Then just the FEC for flash.

The OP's issues are very common in our group. Same issue/situation as the OP's, I'll have them set their camera to manual, set a low ISO (sunny conditions), set shutter to Max X-sync speed, then adjust the aperture to adjust the ambient to taste. Then I have them turn their flash on in ETTL and take a shot and adjust FEC to taste.

Invariably, the next thing I hear is "That looks great! How did you do that so easily?" I tell them "I didn't, you did!"

It's simple, easy to do and gets good results. (let's not get into the endless variables one can encounter at this point) I feel it's beneficial to offer someone having issues an easy to understand method that will yield good results and is repeatable.

BTW, that's the same method I employ most times until the situation or my goals require something different.

And Jim- I know full well your excellent grasp of flash methods :-)

If any of this reply seems disjointed, I'm blaming it on having to peck this out with one finger on my iPhone! It took so long to type, I might be in a coma. . .

pathfinder · April 17, 2010

jeffreaux2 wrote:

Join this on-going discussion on fill flash.....

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=164683

...and

HSS is a must have, but if you want to get a full power burst from the flash you HAVE to keep the shutter speed at or slower than the native synch speed. Rather than full manual, aperture priority will work (not what Id use) and you can use drop the ISO or stop down the lens to slow the shutter down.

PF is right though......without HSS engaged, the camera will revert to synch speed (1/250?) with the flash.

Manual exposure is easier than you think.:D

I missed your discussion of fill flash you linked to Jeff. It is excellent.

Whether one uses HSS or not, in bright sunlight, will depend to a certain extent on the distance to subject won't it? At under say 3-4 feet, you will have plenty of power at f4 or f5.6 - but if you back up 10 feet from the bride and want to shoot at f8, well you may not need that short of a shutter speed any longer, and Max synch shutter speed and a single flash pop will be the best.

And I do agree Randy, that fill flash is really easy to do out of doors. Manual mode lets you control the lighting exposure for the background, and flash lights your subject via ETTL. Like having two different lights for subject and background - great stuff.

adbsgicom · April 19, 2010

fashioncop wrote:

I read this tip in Pop Photo: When mixing flash and ambient light, adjust flash exposure with the aperture, and ambient exposure with the shutter speed. Can anyone help me understand that? What mode do I set my flash in, and how would I adjust my flash exposure with the aperture? I am thinking my camera would have to be in manual mode.

To your question, the key is remembering that the flash pulse is usually faster than 1/4000s or so, which is miniscule relative to the time the shutter is open. So knobs you control:

ISO and Aperture: Affects ambient and flash
Shutter: Only affects ambient contribution

Also, E-TTL will try to expose the f/g (my understanding is that the logic looks at the exposure with and w/o the pre-flash to make it's calculations only that which is affected by the pre-flash) based on the FEC target. So, when you start changing the aperture (say from f/4 to f/5.6) the b/g will drop by 1 stop, but the f/g will stay constant to the point that your flash can't dump any more light.

So, back to your quote, with E-TTL you can move over a large range of ISO/Aperture/Shutter and get similar results for the f/g lighting. However, let's say you've taken a shot and you love how the light looks on your subject, but you just want a little more b/g light. If you shift your ISO up or open the aperture, the flash calculation changes and you may not get exactly what you had in the prior shot. However, if you slow the shutter a bit, you don't affect the flash calculations. If you are running flash in manual mode, you have no choice at all, unless you want to adjust your flash power level in accordance with your change in ISO/Aperture.

Hope that helps answer that part of your question.

ABCL · April 20, 2010

Fantastic advise here, I'll add my 2p

I simply get into Av (Aperture Priority) set my EX flash (with diffuser) to ETTL, make sure my exposure compensator is at 0 (standard exposure) and shoot. I rarely get an over exposed shot.

pathfinder · April 20, 2010

This will work nicley in good light out of doors ( I do this for quick fill in sunlight alot ), but once the sun sets, you many find yourself with a shutter speed of 1/2 second or longer as the camera tries to fashion a correct ambient light exposure via a longer shutter speed.

The flash lit subject will be exposed correctly via the flash, but the shutter speed is a function of ambient light in AV mode. On a tripod this can be fine, but handheld, can lead to surprises if you do not pay attention to your shutter speed and ambient light. With long shutter speeds 2nd curtain synch may be used for creative purposes as well in Av mode.

That is one reason I suggest Manual mode for the camera with the flash in ETTL.

rwells · April 20, 2010

For those that may not know, in Canon's world, if you are in AV mode, the camera/flash assumes you want fill flash ONLY! This can give you real headaches if your intent is to make your flash the main light source in bright conditions.

adbsgicom · April 20, 2010

rwells wrote:

For those that may not know, in Canon's world, if you are in AV mode, the camera/flash assumes you want fill flash ONLY! This can give you real headaches if your intent is to make your flash the main light source in bright conditions.

Really? Where did you uncover that little nugget? I'm intrigued....

rwells · April 20, 2010

adbsgicom wrote:

Really? Where did you uncover that little nugget? I'm intrigued....

Ever wondered why you find yourself "chasing your tail" when shooting in AV mode in bright light, and you want your flash to be more than fill? Read Chuck's site linked below for some eye-openers.

Somewhere on Chuck Gardner's excellent website about Canon flash photography is where I first leaned about it.

The link above will take you to his Table of Contents for Canon/flash.

Enjoy!

ziggy53 · April 20, 2010

For Canon EOS flash system use and settings don't forget that our Pathfinder has done an excellent job collecting information and links here:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=70330

adbsgicom · April 21, 2010

Thanks for both sets of links. Generally, I assume I'm an idiot when the results are bizarre (usually, I'm right, but there might be a small set of cases where I wasn't

)

GadgetRick · April 21, 2010

rwells wrote:

For those that may not know, in Canon's world, if you are in AV mode, the camera/flash assumes you want fill flash ONLY! This can give you real headaches if your intent is to make your flash the main light source in bright conditions.

Really??? That's actually quite helpful. Thanks!

adbsgicom · April 21, 2010

I'm a bit confused by a little bit of empirical data and general logic. Fill to me means flash contribution always less than ambient. So I tried having my child stand in front of a window so her head took up about 30% of the scene. I then dialed Av down to -2 and left FEC at 0. I ended up with a lot of flash. Av picked 1/200 f/4. I shot the same scene in manual (f/4 1/200) and ended up with the same amount of flash.

Seems to me, when the fellow in PhotoNotes that pathfinder points to says that it will always be fill, they are assuming that your scene is a bit more balanced, and if you have the EC at zero, then your FEC of zero will be fill. Am I missing something in the equation here? Seems to make sense: if you have your system set up to under expose the f/g, the flash will attempt to bring that up to the amount specified by the FEC.

ziggy53 · April 21, 2010

adbsgicom wrote:

I'm a bit confused by a little bit of empirical data and general logic. Fill to me means flash contribution always less than ambient. So I tried having my child stand in front of a window so her head took up about 30% of the scene. I then dialed Av down to -2 and left FEC at 0. I ended up with a lot of flash. Av picked 1/200 f/4. I shot the same scene in manual (f/4 1/200) and ended up with the same amount of flash.

Seems to me, when the fellow in PhotoNotes that pathfinder points to says that it will always be fill, they are assuming that your scene is a bit more balanced, and if you have the EC at zero, then your FEC of zero will be fill. Am I missing something in the equation here? Seems to make sense: if you have your system set up to under expose the f/g, the flash will attempt to bring that up to the amount specified by the FEC.

Be sure to read the section titled, "Auto fill reduction." in the following link:

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html#fillflash

adbsgicom · April 21, 2010

I wonder if were are in agreement, but just using conflicting terminology. In the section on fill flash:

Unlike certain other camera systems (particularly Nikon), Canon EOS cameras always default to fill flash mode when the camera is in Tv, Av and M modes. They also perform fill flash in P mode if ambient light levels are high enough. There’s no separate switch or pushbutton to engage fill flash. For details have a look at the section on EOS flash photography confusion below.

and then in the section on auto fill reduction, there is no mention of specific modes causing this feature, just whether the ambient light is sufficiently strong to force a reduction of up to 1.5EV on the flash. The implication is that this happens in all modes, not just Av/Tv.

pathfinder · April 21, 2010

rwells wrote:

Ever wondered why you find yourself "chasing your tail" when shooting in AV mode in bright light, and you want your flash to be more than fill? Read Chuck's site linked below for some eye-openers.

Somewhere on Chuck Gardner's excellent website about Canon flash photography is where I first leaned about it.

The link above will take you to his Table of Contents for Canon/flash.

Enjoy!

Great set of links, Randy. Helps explain a lot of things.

rwells · April 23, 2010

adbsgicom wrote:

I'm a bit confused by a little bit of empirical data and general logic. Fill to me means flash contribution always less than ambient. So I tried having my child stand in front of a window so her head took up about 30% of the scene. I then dialed Av down to -2 and left FEC at 0. I ended up with a lot of flash. Av picked 1/200 f/4. I shot the same scene in manual (f/4 1/200) and ended up with the same amount of flash.

Seems to me, when the fellow in PhotoNotes that pathfinder points to says that it will always be fill, they are assuming that your scene is a bit more balanced, and if you have the EC at zero, then your FEC of zero will be fill. Am I missing something in the equation here? Seems to make sense: if you have your system set up to under expose the f/g, the flash will attempt to bring that up to the amount specified by the FEC.

Hey Andrew,

I'm a little confused by your question/statement...

In your first paragraph, I think that you may have forgotten that with Canon, unlike Nikon, the EC and FEC are completely separate. Regardless the fact that you set the EC to -2 in AV mode, the camera is still METERING as it always would. You've just chosen to override that meter reading. It's pre-flash settings work off/with the metering.

I think your second paragraph is accurate.

What I was referring to, and Chuck's information also, about always being in fill-flash mode when in AV still stands. Your test didn't challenge this. Go outside on a bright sunny day and have your subject standing in the sun. Now be in AV mode and try to have your flash be the Key light. Now try the same thing in (camera) manual mode. If by some bit of luck your flash is able to overpower the sun in AV mode, put a modifier on it when in manual (camera) mode, then switch back to AV with the same setup and see if you can still overpower the sun in AV mode. Also, see which mode you can be consistent with, which is what really counts!

Hope that helps...

adbsgicom · April 23, 2010

Not so much sun today, but Sunday should be nice. How are you defining main light? In my experiment where the Av EC was at -2, the main light illuminating my daughter was the flash. I would have ended up with a silhouette had there been no flash. When you are saying fill, are you equating that to the auto flash compensation for bright scenes? If so, then I think we're in sync....

Yeah, I'm glad that FEC and EC are orthogonal. Works for me.

I need 580 EX II help!!

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