>>> Discussion: Fill Flash outdoors

ivar · April 11, 2010

Let's start of the discussion threads!

First topic: Fill Flash outdoors! Do you use it? If so, how? any modifiers? gelling? Share your tips and ask your questions!

If you have any topics/questions that you would like discussed, please let me know :thumb

kidzmom · April 11, 2010

Great topic! Do I use it....Never! Would I like to learn...you betcha! I have a 430 ExII for my Canon and am clueless. I shoot in manual for the most part....a lot outdoors and 99% natural light. Where to start with the flash? I also have 2 remote triggers (for an older Nikon SB-22) and some umbrellas. I prefer the Nikon SB22 because I can adjust the power with the dial. I love knobs and dials....on the 430 EX II I'm completely intimidated with the little LCD screen. Where to begin?????

I know how to put it on the shoe.. and rotate the head, lol

but after that I'm clueless :cry

jeffreaux2 · April 11, 2010

I use flash in nearly 100% of my outdoor portraits. It is just standard procedure for me to use flash in some form EXCEPT in special cases....rather than the thinking of only using flash in special cases.

I use ETTL exclusively.( Its just too stupid simple not to)

Im not familiar with Nikon's terminology, but for the Canon system what you should be concerned with is:

-HSS: High Speed Synch - Why this setting isnt the default on a Canon flash Ill never understand....but....HSS allows you to utilize flash at shutter speeds that are higher than the camera's native synch speed. This is really important in outdoor on location type shoots as it allows me to use the large apertures I like ( for blurred backgrounds) and use flash. Without HSS, the shutter speed would be faster than the synch speed....but when a flash is in the shoe and on.....with HSS disabled....the camera will revert to the synch speed (1/250) in my case and fire the flash. This results in a grossly overexposed image. With HSS enabled. All is right in the world. The settings you have dialed in(hopefully in manual)...aperture, shutter speed, and ISO stay locked....and the flash pulses to light the FOREGROUND.

-ETTL: This is Canons through the lens flash metering system. It surveys the scene and pops the flash with just enough power to bring highlights up to the egde of overexposure. Its automatic. It determines how much is needed. Its one flaw ( IMO) is that if the scene is REALLY bright it may not have provide enough light. The best way to see this flaw is to let part of a shoot through umbrella sneak its way into the composition and then snap the shot. You might get lucky, but chances are it will cut power and leave your subject underlit. It works GREAT as long as the umbrellas and flash heads are outside your composition...as they should be except in special circumstances.

-FEC: Flash Exposure Compensation- THis is the setting where you can take control over how much light the ETTL system is putting out. Normal "exposure compensation" is different in that it adjusts the exposure for the entire frame. FEC is an adjustment ONLY for the amount of power....or light that the flash adds in. This is your handle for how harshly or softly your subject is lit. On the 580 series....just push the button inside the wheel dial on the back of the flash. You will see an FEC value (default 0) and it can be adjusted down or up by turning the wheel. Minus 1 1/3(-1 1/3) is usually a good place to start for fill. This is adjustable in 1/3 stop increments down to -3 or up to +3 stops. You should only have to venture into the +stop part of the scale if you have some bright light source in the composition that is tricking the ETTL metering.

To put it all to use,

I prefer a "manual" exposure setting at the camera, so I set my exposure based on the scene. I expose to the right......that is....I push my exposures to get them as bright as possible without overexposing using the histogram view and lock that in...in manual. Now add flash. Enable HSS.....be sure it is set for ETTL and not Manual.....and dial in maybe -1 1/3 FEC. Take a test shot.

Why a test shot? Im looking for shadows here. Am I overpowering the flash? I can tell if I am CREATING new shadows with it that otherwise wouldn't be there. Let the natural light decide where the shadows fall....just use enough flash power to help lift the shadows and perhaps brighten your subject's eyes. THAT is fill! Blasting away all the lovely natural shadows is NOT fill. The natural light should be the key light source....not the flash.

Most important thing to remember....too much fill will always look worse than too little. Always.

You can key light with a flash....but THATs a different topic!!!

The technique described above is fool proof. It is solid for either shoe mounted or off camera ETTL flash. For off camera ETTL you will need either an STE2 transmitter or another speedlight that can act as "master". I prefer the STE2 for its light weight. This relies on a line of sight (usually....but it can sometimes be bounced) to get the signal (infra red) from the master (on camera) to the slave. It has a maximum distance of about 30 feet....but that can be extended using a radio system like Radio Poppers.

What about modifyers?

To truely get a soft light source you need to increase the size of the source. Most commonly this is done with an umbrella or softbox. Anything smaller isnt worth the expense or hassle. A stofen diffuser for instance doesnt increase the source size at all and will only chew up batteries at a faster rate. For shoe mounted flash stick with a bare flash and bounce it when possible. If you have to shoot it straight on to the subject, cut the power with FEC to eliminate the hideous shadows indicative of flash.

I usually use a 13 foot stand and shoot through either a 45 inch or 60 inch white umbrella.

Short of an umbrella or softbox the only modifyer I recommend is a GEL to match the color temperature of the flash to the color temperature of the existing light. That...also ....is a topic for another day.

A few examples....

- Off Camera ETTL Flash at camera left shot through a white umbrella.

- The natural light is backlighting her.....so a flash through an umbrella has been placed at camera right....stright onto her chin to help lift the shadows on her dark side.

-This isnt fill. I have overpowered the natural light and use the speedlight....in an umbrella as the key light source.

-Shoe mounted forward facing ETTL fill.

- Subject is looking up at me with the bright blue sky behind me. No fill needed.

adbsgicom · April 11, 2010

Thanks, Jeff. Love the examples.

Since Ivar included Gelling as part of the thread, can I ask about the gelling on these shots? Was the first one a lot of shade, and therefore gelled CTB? The others, I'm thinking were not gelled. The red bricks though in the second may have demanded some cto, perhaps?

kidzmom · April 11, 2010

Thanks so much Jeff for taking the time to go through that and with all of the awesome examples. I am ready to start practicing!

kidzmom · April 11, 2010

So, just went around playing with the flash. Fun! On the 430 EXII you can set the HSS once and then it stays on upon re-power of the flash, which is good becasue I can see myself forgetting. This IS indeed an essential feature when shooting with open apertures...It makes so much sense. The E-TTL is essential too and I'm thinking I really should probabally just get a ST-E2 so I can maintain the E-TTL info. It seems to be a bargain at only 200 bucks vs the Pocket Wizzard (2x cost) due to having to get trigger and remote...but the radio frequency might be worth it. I did like the look of your on shoe shot though Jeff, but I tend to believe that getting the flash off the shoe is really the best way to perfect photos. Thanks again for the info and I"m sure I'll be back at ya with more ??'s down the line.

pwp · April 11, 2010

Great info, Jeff!

I also avoided fill flash until I really got to know what I was doing and how to use it properly (like Jeff has shown above). Once I knew what the heck I was doing, my photography leapt to a whole new level, and I haven't looked back. Like Jeff, I use fill flash almost 100% of the time outside.

jeffreaux2 · April 11, 2010

adbsgicom wrote:

Thanks, Jeff. Love the examples.

Since Ivar included Gelling as part of the thread, can I ask about the gelling on these shots? Was the first one a lot of shade, and therefore gelled CTB? The others, I'm thinking were not gelled. The red bricks though in the second may have demanded some cto, perhaps?

The first was shot in the open, albeit on a slightly overcasr day and used no gel. The second and forth were shot in shade and used a CTB. The third ...since the flash was the key light....used no gel....and used a "flash" white balance. That one was shot on a clear day but very early in the morning in open shade. A blue gel would have helped to get the subject AND bricks warmer....rather than warm subject cool bricks....but I liked the effect and kept the flash....ahem....naked.

jeffreaux2 · April 11, 2010

kidzmom wrote:

So, just went around playing with the flash. Fun! On the 430 EXII you can set the HSS once and then it stays on upon re-power of the flash, which is good becasue I can see myself forgetting. This IS indeed an essential feature when shooting with open apertures...It makes so much sense. The E-TTL is essential too and I'm thinking I really should probabally just get a ST-E2 so I can maintain the E-TTL info. It seems to be a bargain at only 200 bucks vs the Pocket Wizzard (2x cost) due to having to get trigger and remote...but the radio frequency might be worth it. I did like the look of your on shoe shot though Jeff, but I tend to believe that getting the flash off the shoe is really the best way to perfect photos. Thanks again for the info and I"m sure I'll be back at ya with more ??'s down the line.

If you remove the batteries you will have to reset HSS.

Also every now and then I run into a situation where a radio trigger might make things easier....but I can usually find a way to make the STE2 work. I commonly do full length poses with the 70-200mm set at 200mm. This puts me well beyond the touted distance limit that Canon states.....and all of this is done outdoors. Indoors is a breeze.

jeffreaux2 · April 11, 2010

kidzmom wrote:

Thanks so much Jeff for taking the time to go through that and with all of the awesome examples. I am ready to start practicing!

Youll wonder why you put it off so long. Good flash work can make all the gear you already own much more versitile.

GET WITH IT GIRL!!!

adbsgicom · April 11, 2010

jeffreaux2 wrote:

The first was shot in the open, albeit on a slightly overcasr day and used no gel. The second and forth were shot in shade and used a CTB. The third ...since the flash was the key light....used no gel....and used a "flash" white balance. That one was shot on a clear day but very early in the morning in open shade. A blue gel would have helped to get the subject AND bricks warmer....rather than warm subject cool bricks....but I liked the effect and kept the flash....ahem....naked.

Thanks again for taking the time for sharing your knowledge here. I managed to get my initial guesses totally wrong, but I upon going back I see how it worked and where the light is getting balanced in each case.

Kinkajou · April 12, 2010

At this point I'm primarily using a reflector for fill light and 90% of the time I'm happy with it. The 10% unhappiness isn't acceptable though, so I'm saving up for the 580 and an STE2. Still, I think the reflector is a great tool and does the job in many situations... not to mention gives you great catchlights

zoomer · April 14, 2010

I also use it almost every shot.
42" softbox with an sb800. Most of the time I just use enough to create some shadow, sometimes I crank it up to darken the background and isolate more.

I seldom use flash strictly as a light fill, and never on the camera, those days are over.

Lately I have been shooting more natural light if the conditions are perfect with a nice cloudy day with my 85 1.4 because the look with that bokeh is crazy....but I always go back to the flash as the look is so completely different....even though for the most part you would not be able to tell a flash was used.

Swartzy · April 14, 2010

Stay tuned. Jeff told me to get my butt up here and give my 2 pennies worth

I have some additional things to add with examples but have an appt. Jeff did cover this very well.

jeffreaux2 · April 14, 2010

This....with Canon ETTL....

Problem:
-Im using a wide aperture and ETTL flash and my image is overexposed....

Cure:
-Enable HSS

Problem:
- My subject is lit by flash and is exposed well, but the shadows are harsh...just looks "flashy".

Cure:
-Add exposure time to allow the shadows to recieve some natural light.

Problem:
-Im using HSS and no matter what I try, my flash wont put out enough oomph! to properly expose my subject

Cure:
-Canons HSS uses pulses of light rather than one big bang. If your FEC is already set to zero....or a positive value....just squeeze the aperture down....or lower the ISO to get the shutter speed at or below your native synch speed. This is 1/250 on a 50D. You'll get your full power then.

l.k.madison · April 14, 2010

::peeks down the road in Jeffreaux's direction to see when you're available for that flash lesson::

My next major photography purchase is a "gizmo" (wireless trigger) for my flash. I'm torn between that and a better cell phone... hmm...

I still haven't mastered the fill flash outside concept, so that's what subscribing to this thread is for - getting knowledge from people who know WAY more about this than I do!

:lurk

TangoJuliet · April 17, 2010

I need to subscribe to tbis thread. Many of my shots are done at R/C Model Airplane Fly-Ins and naturally I want to get a photo of a Modeler with his/her model, and also naturally, everyone is wearing a hat to keep the sun out of their eyes, which creates a terrible shadow. I've played a little with my flash outdoors and have some gels for it, but have played with those even less. Can anyone provide feedback for my situation and using the fill flash (I use a Canon 7D and have a 430EX), and also perhaps a short discussion of Gels and how/when to use them?

Hackbone · April 17, 2010

Another fellow and myself played around for a bit with outside fill lighting using two flashes and Radio Poppers to control them. No diffusers were used just straight flash. The top one is what the camera first saw then the bottom is with a flash off camera set to about 1.3 stops over exposed and the flash on camera off. The camera was in manual mode.

On the second example flash on camera firing. On the lower portion I manually metered for the sky and underexposed 2 stops to bring out the clouds. Flash on camera set not to fire with the flash off camera set to 3 stops over exposed. In processing I did saturate blue in the sky.

Both photos were taken in open sun with the sun slightly behind to viewers right about 45 degrees.

Swartzy · April 17, 2010

Here are my thoughts on fill flash or better stated, what things I consider when using/or not using.

Is the subject in bright sunlight or in a shadow area? Is the subject backlit? In other words is the background brighter than the subject? What is the distance of my flash to subject?

If the background is much brighter than the subject, your camera will underexpose your image .......even when metering your subject...so, we need to compensate for that. Fill flash is the answer. How much? That is where you need to decide the power of the flash for the look you want. If you want a "strobist" look to where the bg is darker and the subject looks flash (from a different angle than your camera) then go that route. If you want to blend it nicely for the entire scene, then using ETTL, riding the FEC compensation allows for that.

As Jeff mentioned, staying within your camera's sync speed will give you the best bang for the buck.

What I wanted to drive home here is to understand the mixture of ambient to flash. In many cases, the idea of "fill" flash is just that...to lift the shadows. We want it to look natural as though there were no additional light source...it needs to blend seamlessly. Using flash in this manner lifts shadows from under the eyebrows (racoon eyes) and adds a touch of pop to the image.

Without complicating things, especially discussing off camera lighting and other setups, let's simply assume we have the flash on camera. Many many times I shoot in AV mode outdoors, put the flash in high sync mode then dial the FEC down -2 stops. If I'm not getting the look I want, then I'll switch to Manual mode and ride the FEC to taste...this way the camera is not re-metering every single shot....you'll obtain much more consistency...but when on the run with event photography, I find AV fast and easy. This is outdoors of course.

There are reasons for both modes. Where I prefer using manual mode indoors and out are as follows:

You control the accuracy, consistency and shutter speed, as well as DOF. Here you get EXACTLY what you want. No other mode on your camera can do that..so, you are in control...and then may use your additional light source to your taste.

Manual Mode w/fill flash

Here's 1/250th in AV with FEC -2

The toughest situations are when you have such a bright background and such a dark subject matter...then we have to decide whether to blow out the highlights or drop the shadows to black. Using your flash on camera, we can balance that simply by dialing in our exposure (camera metering) for what we wish to retain, then riding the FEC up or down for the "blended" look. Sometimes it's tricky..say like shooting into the sun.

The other thing I wish to stress is the importance of adjusting your FEC as you move closer and farther away from your subject. Leaving your camera in Manual mode, once dialed in, allows simple FEC adjustments as you are shooting....it's quick, and easy and most of all when done right...The scene looks natural, as though there were no additional light source.

Hackbone · April 17, 2010

Swartzy, that is some of the best fill flash I've seen. Very nice. Have to talk with you some time.

Wil Davis · April 17, 2010

Great thread! Thanks for starting it up, Ivar!

Nice job Swartzy!

- Wil

Macushla · April 23, 2010

Does using a soft box or flash diffuser help at all for outdoor fill flash. I tried using fill flash (SB600 in the hot shoe - I don't have a bracket) most of the shots were washed out or the fill flash caused harsh shadows. It was my first attempt. I was thinking of purchasing one - will it help?

Wachel · April 23, 2010

I am getting in to using fill flash and I LOVE it. I need to keep practicing but it makes such a huge difference.

PupWeb · April 23, 2010

I use fill flash most of the time
Great thread. This is my general rules of thumb.

Portraits where I have time
I never let my cam meter the flash, they all lie. Everything in manual mode including flash off camera. I use $80 strobes and alien bee remotes. I meter with my Seikinonic LM to where the fill flash is contributing %50 to the exposure. You will have to meter again if you move the flash or you increase or decrease flash power.

I postition my strobes to give the dimension and shadow I want.

Candid shots where there is no time between shots.
Flash manual setting -Adjust the power to room size.
Have flash on hot shoe. I will bounce the flash off walls etc., ceiling if it's the only option. Outdoors use flash same way but I do not adjust the power on the flash. I just change the angle. This is quicker than dialing things on the back of the falsh.

cr8ingwaves · April 28, 2010

Thanks for the detailed explanations. Gave me the confidence to get my 430ex out of my bag and play with it. Not as afraid of it as I once was.

>>> Discussion: Fill Flash outdoors

Comments