Help with posing a large group...

Mongrel · June 20, 2005

Hello Gang,

Well I was contacted by the parents of my daughter's friend to see if I'd be interested in shooting a family portrait for them.

"My son says you have, like, a really good camera?"

ahh....yea...I have a decent setup....

"Would you be interested in shooting our family portrait?"

ahhh...yea...sure....how many people?

"Well, there's mom and dad, and four brothers, their four wives, and they each have two children."

soo.....ahhhh....that's like 18 people right?

"Yes, including mom and dad, it's their 50th wedding anniversary. And the only time the family has been in one place for many years."

When are your parents arriving?

"They'll be here *next* Saturday afternoon."

*gulp* (I'm talking to my self-SELF you can *do this*), yea, sure I'll do it.

OK-now that I've bored you to death with the scenario, here's my question:

How in the world do you pose 18 people? Can someone please direct me to a good book or website on posing groups? I know it *sounds* much easier than I think it really is.

Shooting conditions:

2pm, outdoors (unless it rains), small yard, log cabin home-nice stone chimney, lots of great landscaping and vegetation. However the ground is fairly uneven to go for a straight 'stand 'em all up in a row' type of shot.

Equipment wise, I'm believe I'm ok....

1D
20D
Digital Rebel
580EX
420EX
Lightsphere II
Stofen omni-bounce
(2) tripods to mount slaves (if needed)
Assortment of lenses from 17mm and up....

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Mongrel

ziggy53 · June 20, 2005

Mongrel,

What I would do:

Go to the site and actually talk to the people who contracted the photo and/or the owners of the property. It sounds like they are proud of their property and buildings. You want to find out if there is a particular view of the property they want in the photo. If so, the property, building(s) and such become part of your challenge.

If you can, visit the property around the same time of day as the intended shoot. Note the way the shadows play against the property and structures. Look especially for any reflected light that might "color" the scene. If possible, even stage a couple of people so you can see how the available light works on the faces. It can be a real eye-opener. Take some photos with just available light, so you can study it later.

You are also going to discover where you must be positioned. If you're downhill from the group, you may have to forego a tripod in favor of a taller stepladder, just to gain the height required.

Once you see how the available light is working, you can plan your fill-lighting approach. Again, try to use actual subjects, even if it's just yourself in a self-exposure. Don't get too fancy with a large group. You probably just want basic fill from close to the camera/lens axis. You probably don't want a lot of new shadows induced from lights to the sides.

Ask questions about the mobility of the people in the shot. Better you should know these things before-hand to discuss and plan around.

Most of the multi-family portraits I've seen come from organizing the families into "clusters" within the whole, it's just easier when trying to explain the relationships within the photo. Sometimes it's a completely different structure, but there's almost always a structure or plan to the posing positions. Think about the eldest as the principal individuals, with everyone else organized around. A lot of the time it's cute having the grandkids/great grandkids closer to the eldest folks to give a sense of age contrasts. Anything goes, as long as it's what the families want. In case they can't agree, it's usually better to shoot more and sort it out later.

Getting 18 people to cooperate for even a moment in unison is a considerable challenge itself. I would plan on a partner to help shoulder some of that responsibility, as well as point out posing issues you might miss.

I'm probably missing stuff, so hopefully others will join in the discussion.

You didn't mention what will happen if the weather closes in.

Best,

ziggy53

mercphoto · June 20, 2005

Mongrel wrote:

How in the world do you pose 18 people? Can someone please direct me to a good book or website on posing groups? I know it *sounds* much easier than I think it really is.

Shooting conditions:

2pm, outdoors (unless it rains), small yard, log cabin home-nice stone chimney, lots of great landscaping and vegetation. However the ground is fairly uneven to go for a straight 'stand 'em all up in a row' type of shot.

Nice equipment list! The 2pm part is what worries me the most. Over-head sun, nasty shadows on people's faces. I know that will be a problem. I'm thinking a solution might be a pair of slave flashes at low power in front of the group: one to your left, one to your right. I could be very wrong about the technique, but I think you will find you need a way to deal with the direct over-head sun.

One idea is to get them in a shaded area. Under a huge tree, under a porch, etc.

As per posing, I like the suggestion of putting people into groups. You mentioned it was someone birthday I think? Put that person prominent in the pose. Then maybe nearest relatives, and work your way out the family tree.

I would also suggest mulitple shots of that pose. People will have eyes closed, looking wrong place, etc.

Then, I'd start doing smaller groups. No reason to go through all this trouble and only get a big group shot. Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.

Mongrel · June 21, 2005

Ziggy and Bill,
thanks so much for the replies, I know how valuable time is, and I appreciate the time you took to give such thoughtful answers

Yes, the 2pm sun is worrisome. We walked around the yard to discuss possible locations, and two of the three offer very little in the way of overhead cover. The third offers almost a full canopy of trees, *but* my back will be to a lakebed (unfortunately it's drained at the moment), and the ground slopes upwards at a pretty steep angle back towards the cabin.

Great suggestions on groupings within the group. The centerpiece will be the parents (50th anniversary), I was thinking of having them seated and working out from there. I'm considering some type of ground cover for the children to kneel or sit on, but it would have to be very discreet.

Another great suggestion-scout and pre-shoot the location at the same time of day. I am planning on going out there tomorrow or Wed. with my two daughters as guinea pigs

As you suggested, it will give me a feel for what I'm up against-lighting and otherwise.

One fear I have is that I won't be able to get far enough back and will have to resort to using a wide angle lens, which from past experience doesn't exactly render people in a very complimentary way :uhoh

I have a book on posing large groups, but it's from the mid sixties and obviously *very* dated

If I can I'll post some of my preliminary shots in this thread to give a feel for what I'm dealing with.

Re: Inclement weather-

Move indoors

and shoot in the cabins 'great room'. I'll have to move all the furniture out onto the porch though

thanks again guys-great advice and answers

Ann McRae · June 21, 2005

Hehehe

My only experience with a group of 18+ is with team photos!!!! 2 rows, goalie in the center, coaches at the ends or behind!!!

Okay, enough joking, I would be trying to find shade for the group. If you can't I remember some advice Shay gave regarding a large group shot in mid day sun at the beach - he suggested shooting into the sun which seems to be counterintuitive, but you can meter for it better than they can control the urge to squint.

Do you know the ages of the grandkids? Are you able to use any kind of props like garden benches, kid sized lawn chairs or stools or old tree stumps for seating?

As well, try to influence what they are wearing if you can - color coordinate dark solid colors or all white or all denim - some theme that eliminates Aunt Martha's puprle flower dress from taking over the photo.

I've never actually done this before, but think those are things you could think about.

ann

ian408 · June 21, 2005

Some great advice here.

As others have said, go into it with a plan and take charge--not forecfully but
explain what you're trying to do and why you're doing it. You can do this
as you're getting people set up.

Maybe Auntie so-and-so will want a picture too. As a favor, you might collect
all the cameras in advance and once you're done, shoot for them as well.
Knowing of course that other than yours, the flash may not fire.

Might I suggest some reflectors as way to even things out a bit.

Best of luck and looking forward to seeing the result!

Ian

Mongrel · June 21, 2005

Hi Ann!
Thanks so much for stopping by

, some great advice you gave me. I hadn't heard about Shay's recommendation on shooting *into* the sun. Makes a lot of sense, I'll check it out when I scout the place tomorrow.

As far as coordinating clothing-she (the lady who contacted me) mentioned white shirts (oh no-the blown highlights!!!), and the fact that they were going out to dinner right after the session. I know that white shirts are popular now for portraits (at least in the studios around here), and khaki seems to be the predominant pants color. Hopefully, since everyone except the parents are in their late 30's early 40's, PURPLE will not be a factor (I just shot a wedding where the altar background was a solid deep purple-

).

thanks again for the tips-especially the Shay Stephen's Banzai Sun tip!

Mongrel · June 21, 2005

Thank you Ian!
Great idea on the cameras. I believe the only people on-site will be those actually in the pic. Of course, when they break up into family groups for the other shots, I may need to grab the cameras from them.

I don't have any reflectors, and I don't know if I could make one large enough to cover the group, but perhaps I can use one for the small portraits? I've heard of all sorts of stuff being used for reflectors-styrofoam boards, poster paper, automobile sunshades-so maybe I should bring something along.

Thanks again for stopping by to help me out, I'll definately keep you guys posted.

Mongrel · June 22, 2005

Well, took some test shots today...
Now I'm all turned around in my head

The area I thought would give the best lighting turned out awful funky (at least using my Tamron 17-35). The area that kinda looks the *ugliest* actually had the most even lighting. The place I didn't even consider, well, may be my best bet.

Here's a few of my options....

#1 The back yard (this was actually where the customer preferred)

#2 Backyard again-

Honestly, the lighting didn't look that harsh when I took the shot

Another option-the 'side-yard'

#3

The *other* side yard-

#4

The side of the cabin showing the chimney-

#5

The least likely candidate may be the *best* option, the front *yard*-

#6

Last but not least, I was thinking individual family shots against this background-

#7

Sorry to bombard ya with all these pics, but I wanted to show what I was up against and get your feedback. Tomorrow (Wed.) I'm going back with my wife and two daughters to shoot some fill-flash stuff and work on positioning. I have a 5/ x 9' oriental (style) rug that I'm planning on bringing for people to kneel on or for kids to sit on. I'm still not sure whether to shoot from the waist up, knees up, or full body

Again, I appreciate any feedback you can give me on the above.

Thanks,

Mongrel

Bodwick · June 22, 2005

Get out onto the roof....
I'd try climbing out the upstairs window onto the low roof and take a look at the view down from there.

This high view will work well with the large number of people. You can shoot groups of 30-40+ from upstairs windows allowing all parties to be in view..

Bod....

Ann McRae · June 22, 2005

Hi Mongrel
Is there a way to use the retaining wall or the steps as a seating device? Can you get the family to spread themselves along the stair case and get a good angle on them? If you position yourself about where the table is, you may be able to make it work.

Another option-the 'side-yard'

I like this one, too.

#3

And I really like this one. Put the chairs into the center (lined up with the corner of the fence, but more toward the fron of the shade), get rid of the bbq.Get the parents into those red adirondak chairs, maybe with the chiminea in the middle (not sure it will work), and pose the family in a semi circle around the parents - some kids in front on the paving stones. I think it would work really well.
#4

The side of the cabin showing the chimney-

Lots of character in that chimney - individual familes?

#5

The least likely candidate may be the *best* option, the front *yard*-

I do not see it - the background is too busy.

#6

Last but not least, I was thinking individual family shots against this background-

I like this one, too.

#7

ann

mercphoto · June 22, 2005

After looking at your location pictures, next I would start worrying about depth of field. You need at least enough depth of field to get all the people in focus (strangely, I saw a youth baseball team photo by a "professional" that had only 1 of 4 rows of people in focus). After that we usually want the background to drop out of focus. However, in these locations that might be hard to do, as the background isn't very far away. I'd be inclined because of that, you might want to aim for excessive depth of field instead of shallow. If the background is just barely past the DOF things tend to look out of focus rather than pleasantly blurred.

I'd be tempted to shoot f/8 to f/11 if lighting conditions allow. I'd be interested if anyone disagrees and why.

erich6 · June 23, 2005

You may want to see if you can move back away from the house more than you did for these pictures. I would worry about these backgrounds being too strong and overpowering your subject. Backing away would change the perspective and make the group standout more relative to the objects in the background. With that, I think the backyard, front, or the chimney side shots would work best.

Erich

Higgmeister · June 23, 2005

Hi MOngrel,
I don't do portraits, but here is an idea. This is taken from old time studio and family shots.

The grandparents should be seated together (maybe holding hands turned slightly towards eachother), the other adults standing to their sides. Here is where grouping would work well. Their eldest children (or favorites) can stand next to them, slightly behind, with maybe a hand on their shoulders. The grandkids then can be put next to the grandparents in front of their own parents. The grandparents should have a place of honor and stand out since it is their special day.

Seems like you are getting plenty of advice on where to shoot, so I though I'd put this suggestion in. Maybe it'll give you some ideas.

Good Luck,
Chris

pathfinder · June 23, 2005

Mongrel - After looking at your images of where you plan to shoot - one thing stands out strongly to me - and that is that the light and shadows are mottled from passing through the leaves in the trees. Be very careful in this kind of lighting or you will get mottled lighting on your subjects faces and it is almost impossible to do anything about it. I speak from experience here.

Either use flash for your light source, or make sure your subjects are in even shaded lighting, not the mottled lighting I see in many of your shots. The advantage of flash will be that it may illuminate the backgrounds darker than the subjects. I would keep the subjects 8-10 feet in front of any background you chose also. And have fun shooting also.

Mongrel · June 23, 2005

Thanks for the heads up Bill-
I did get to shoot some experimental shots using my wife and daughter. I put them in different positions to see what aperture I needed to keep them both in focus.

You are right that it is better to shoot with more DOF in this case than less. Especially because of the large group and the tight backgrounds.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it

mercphoto wrote:

After looking at your location pictures, next I would start worrying about depth of field. You need at least enough depth of field to get all the people in focus (strangely, I saw a youth baseball team photo by a "professional" that had only 1 of 4 rows of people in focus). After that we usually want the background to drop out of focus. However, in these locations that might be hard to do, as the background isn't very far away. I'd be inclined because of that, you might want to aim for excessive depth of field instead of shallow. If the background is just barely past the DOF things tend to look out of focus rather than pleasantly blurred.

I'd be tempted to shoot f/8 to f/11 if lighting conditions allow. I'd be interested if anyone disagrees and why.

Mongrel · June 23, 2005

Thanks Eric,
As I replied to Bill above, I did get a chance to shoot some people in these settings. The area that seemed to work best was one of the settings in the side yard (with the pavers\stones).

I plan to shoot fairly tight-but not *too* tight (to allow for framing and print sizing), so hopefully there won't be too much background that actually shows in the shot.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it

erich6 wrote:

You may want to see if you can move back away from the house more than you did for these pictures. I would worry about these backgrounds being too strong and overpowering your subject. Backing away would change the perspective and make the group standout more relative to the objects in the background. With that, I think the backyard, front, or the chimney side shots would work best.

Erich

Mongrel · June 23, 2005

Hey Chris, thanks for your input on this...
Your suggestion is great, and will work very well for one of the setups I have in mind! I want to try and shoot *down* from a ladder with the parents as the focal point-seated-and the other family members 'spilling out' behind them.

Thanks again for stopping by to comment

Take care,

Mongrel

Higgmeister wrote:

I don't do portraits, but here is an idea. This is taken from old time studio and family shots.

The grandparents should be seated together (maybe holding hands turned slightly towards eachother), the other adults standing to their sides. Here is where grouping would work well. Their eldest children (or favorites) can stand next to them, slightly behind, with maybe a hand on their shoulders. The grandkids then can be put next to the grandparents in front of their own parents. The grandparents should have a place of honor and stand out since it is their special day.

Seems like you are getting plenty of advice on where to shoot, so I though I'd put this suggestion in. Maybe it'll give you some ideas.

Good Luck,
Chris

Andy · June 23, 2005

agree with the suggestions given. lighting will be tough, mongrel!

another one:

get up high, and arrange them like a flower

Mongrel · June 23, 2005

Pathfinder-thanks for your input and comments!
You make a VERY good point about the mottled lighting. In fact, yesterday my wife and I stopped by for some test shots, and that is EXACTLY what I found to be a problem!

I am definately using a flash, and I experimented using my 580EX with my Lightsphere II. This is the first time I used the LSII outdoors and it proved to be somewhat frustrating. Using the ETTL setting and compensation set at -0- I was blowing out most of the shots. I never had this problem with my Sigma 500DG Super and my Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer on a bracket.

The best results using the 20D and 580EX were without the LSII and flash compensation set between -2/3 stop and -1 stop. I'll probably go without the LSII at this point.

As far as 8-10 feet from the background, this may prove a little difficult, but I will try to get them as from the background as possible. The pics above were all shot at 17mm on a 20D just to give an idea of what I had to work with. I *really* don't want to shoot people that wide because of the effect-short and fat :uhoh . I made that mistake at a wedding and it looks pretty poor. I have the best luck at around 28mm on a 1.6 crop camera.

Thank you *so much* for your input on this, I really appreciate that you took the time

Oh, I will *try* to have fun

, but they are forecasting temps around 96

.
My plan is too be setup well in advance and to shoot fassssttt

Take care,

Mongrel

pathfinder wrote:

Mongrel - After looking at your images of where you plan to shoot - one thing stands out strongly to me - and that is that the light and shadows are mottled from passing through the leaves in the trees. Be very careful in this kind of lighting or you will get mottled lighting on your subjects faces and it is almost impossible to do anything about it. I speak from experience here.

Either use flash for your light source, or make sure your subjects are in even shaded lighting, not the mottled lighting I see in many of your shots. The advantage of flash will be that it may illuminate the backgrounds darker than the subjects. I would keep the subjects 8-10 feet in front of any background you chose also. And have fun shooting also.

pathfinder · June 23, 2005

andy wrote:

agree with the suggestions given. lighting will be tough, mongrel!

another one:

get up high, and arrange them like a flower

Gosh, that picture was extracted very nicely Andy!!

Mongrel · June 23, 2005

Hey Andy! Guess what?
I just saw that you posted that pic recently (not sure if it was here or FM

), and as soon as I saw it I thought-hey that might just be the ticket!!!!

Thanks so much for stopping by to share that example, I really appreciate it.

Yea, the lighting is the main concern. Not enough tree canopy to block it out effectively, as shown in the example shots above. Hopefully the 580EX will cover the group without blowing them out. I was informed that "white shirts" would be the uniform of the day :uhoh . Now I'm thinking of shooting it with my 1D instead of the 20D. The 1D is known for handling highlights very well. I expect that they may want prints larger than 8X10 from this shoot, so I better learn how to up-rez the 4MP RAW I guess.

That's another thing I wanted to mention-I WILL be shooting RAW...

Thanks again Andy for your help and input on this. I appreciate that you took time to stop by

Take care,

Mongrel

Mongrel · June 23, 2005

Ann, I'M SO SORRY...
that I took so long to respond to your wonderful reply. I am so thankful for your input on this-your ideas and suggestion were great

I especially like your suggestions on the patio area. That's the way I'm leaning right now. I think it provides the best balance of area, background and lighting.

Thanks again so much for taking the time to so thoughtfully reply-you're the best

Take care,

Mongrel

Andy · June 23, 2005

pathfinder wrote:

Gosh, that picture was extracted very nicely Andy!!

it sure was

thanks for that help back there pf

ziggy53 · June 30, 2005

Mongrel,

Is the shoot this Saturday (7-2-2005)?

If so, good luck and let us know how it went.

ziggy53

Angelo · July 2, 2005

ziggy53 wrote:

Mongrel,

Is the shoot this Saturday (7-2-2005)?

If so, good luck and let us know how it went.

ziggy53

Mongrel · July 2, 2005

Confessions of an 'idiot'
Well guys 'n gals, the shoot was Sat. June 25 and I've just gotten the post work etc. done. I'll give you my feelings on it and a few *samples*

The pics suck. When all is said and done, I could have done much better, and I *have* done much better before. All the prelim work, test shots, etc. and I basically choked. I had what looked like the perfect balance between fill flash and ambient light (at least the test shots I took of my DW had the look I was going for), using my 580EX and no diffuser. Well, the idiot that I am, I put my LSII on the flash for ALL the rest of the pics. I wasn't happy with the LSII in *any* test shot as I felt I could'nt get the right balance with it. Don't ask me why I had to put the *toy* on a the last minute but I did. In the words of the immortal Grinch-"I'm an Idiot!!!".

I'm embarrassed to even show these to the family, but I will and I must. I'll probably offer to re-shoot at least some of them on principal.

Anyway on to the dark and lifeless 'Mongrel's First Family Portrait Crash and Burn 2005" sample gallery.....

Probably one of the 'better' ones...

Obviously, I'm pretty unhappy with the above (actually that's a rank understatement). Believe it or not ALL of the above *were* shot with flash!

Below are three 'test snaps' to show the difference with the 580EX WITHOUT the LSII. This is much closer to what I had in mind as far as how I wanted the lighting...

The last one I especially like. Note also that the last three shots I have only applied a tiny bit of USM, while all of the former shots were shot in RAW and required exposure compensation, levels, color tweaking, and sharpening. This is a great lesson about getting the shot right 'out of the camera'.

I have to run and pickup my daughter, but I be back to give a short lecture on how to avoid this AND also dealing with a large group of people.

Thanks,

Mongrel-the rank snapshooter

Angelo · July 2, 2005

Mongrel: I don't see anything all that terrible about your first post, although not ideal.

But I can't help but grab a handy 2x4 and hit you over the head... you let them all wear WHITE!!!!?????

The least flattering, most diffcult, most problematic color possible is the one you allowed them to wear - YIKES!!!!!!! you're a brave man.

I'm sorry you're not happy with the project.

Mongrel · July 2, 2005

Hi Angelo,
thanks for the reply, I really do appreciate it.

Yea, I know-WHITE

The 2X4 would be too merciful.

Actually, the white was the customer's idea. From what I've seen in the two pro studios near me, white is *very* popular. In fact, every window in the one studio has a large family portrait with all the family members in the white\khaki color combo. I did watch the histogram and checked for blow outs on every shot. I figured I would bump up the exposure in RAW until it was right.

What kills me is the flash situation though. Without the fill flash they just look dead to me. Post processing is my weakest skill (after poor flash technique I guess...), and I just don't know any fancy stuff to recover these.

The advice on positioning, and depth of field was all right-on. I got everyone in the shot and in focus. Sadly, I didn't adjust the DOF for the smaller group shots and wound up without properly blurred backgrounds.

In the end, I am learning.

Thanks again for your reply and concern,

Mongrel

ziggy53 · July 3, 2005

Mongrel,

You are waaay toooo hard on yourself. An "idiot" would try to justify what they had done as "art" or something.

I agree that you would have been better off with the flash alone, or possibly with a reflector card. The LSII just has too much light loss for much use outdoors (too much dispersion and scatter.) While the LSII does pretty well indoors, it's mostly a catchlight outdoors.

I don't see any eye-sockets that are true black, so it looks like you could still create another exposure, from RAW, to use as a layer to provide some additional brightness for the shadows. You could probably gain another half-stop without any problem. It'll take some work, but reveal the layer slowly with circular and arc motion, and you should be OK.

ziggy53

Andy · July 3, 2005

i agree with the others... you're pretty hard on yourself, mongrel... you did well under the circumstances, and you realized your mistake and won't make it again

... i think that these can be improved still... if you linky the originals i betcha we could work on 'em together

Help with posing a large group...

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