re Suggestions re assignments
Andy, if the one you posted on pbase, I think it was, had to do with getting out and meeting and photographing your neighbors, I think that is a great idea.
My husband could walk the dogs, as he does anyway, and I could get off the couch, or the computer, to go with him, actually meet "neighbors" and take their pictures. And other dogs, too.
"Hands &/or Feet"
Simple and straight forward. A persons hands &/or feet tell the story of their life. In a much different way than the lines and creases etched into their faces-- yet still very telling...
"Paparazzi"
Photograph someone, or a group of "someones" unaware.
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
Andy, it's great to see that you're getting involved. I look forward to some sensible, intelligent subject matter going forward.
I'll repeat a suggestion that fell on deaf ears before.
Seems like we have at least a couple of goals in creating and participating in the photo challenges.
One, of course, is to enjoy the opportunity to make good photos and to share them with others.
Another, I think, is to improve our skills as photographers. It is towards that end that I make the following suggestion. Mix into the challenges, the standard lessons of photography courses. That way we can have fun, and learn as well.
For example, make one challenge about composition, using the rule of thirds (I'd suggest the Golden Mean but that makes my head hurt!) Make another challenge about using light to emphasize the subject. Learn how to use depth of field. Things like that. (I've never taken any photography courses, so I'm not the best guy to say what's in a typical syllabus.)
Perhaps others don't share my sense that the challenges can be used as a learning opportunity. If so, fair enough. On the other hand, many members may see this as a golden opportunity to learn basic photography skills in the fun environment of the challenges. I sure hope so!
I think that you may have hit on a good idea. Build some foundation work into the challenge. Seems few of us can hurt from re-emphasizing some of the basics, or the opportunity to gain new knowledge from one or a group who may know just a bit more on the subject, or offer a twist. It never hurts to look back at what we learned and try and build on it.
My nickles worth.
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
Andy, it's great to see that you're getting involved. I look forward to some sensible, intelligent subject matter going forward.
I'll repeat a suggestion that fell on deaf ears before.
Seems like we have at least a couple of goals in creating and participating in the photo challenges.
One, of course, is to enjoy the opportunity to make good photos and to share them with others.
Another, I think, is to improve our skills as photographers. It is towards that end that I make the following suggestion. Mix into the challenges, the standard lessons of photography courses. That way we can have fun, and learn as well.
For example, make one challenge about composition, using the rule of thirds (I'd suggest the Golden Mean but that makes my head hurt!) Make another challenge about using light to emphasize the subject. Learn how to use depth of field. Things like that. (I've never taken any photography courses, so I'm not the best guy to say what's in a typical syllabus.)
Perhaps others don't share my sense that the challenges can be used as a learning opportunity. If so, fair enough. On the other hand, many members may see this as a golden opportunity to learn basic photography skills in the fun environment of the challenges. I sure hope so!
Thats another vote for "agree with waxy"
Now that I have a battery grip on my camera, I think I'm all badass and too often forget about basics that I never mastered in the first place.
So this isn't a suggestion for a specific topic, but something came to mind as I was spending 2 hours on one image in photoshop the other day...
Is anyone interested in a "non-manipulated" photo contest?
Let me make it totally clear, I'm not against the wonders of photoshop, but sometimes, I feel like I spend less time out in the street or in the woods composing a good quality shot and more time making decent shots better with x number of fill layers and toning and this and that.
This is more inline with Waxy's suggestion earlier about having topics that force us to rely and fall back on very fundamental principles.
We already have a weekly photoshop challenge too, so its not like an 'as-shot' challenge would take away anyone's chance to be creative in PS as well.
So this isn't a suggestion for a specific topic, but something came to mind as I was spending 2 hours on one image in photoshop the other day...
Is anyone interested in a "non-manipulated" photo contest?
Let me make it totally clear, I'm not against the wonders of photoshop, but sometimes, I feel like I spend less time out in the street or in the woods composing a good quality shot and more time making decent shots better with x number of fill layers and toning and this and that.
This is more inline with Waxy's suggestion earlier about having topics that force us to rely and fall back on very fundamental principles.
We already have a weekly photoshop challenge too, so its not like an 'as-shot' challenge would take away anyone's chance to be creative in PS as well.
Anyone agree? comments?
Erik,
I think that would be a GREAT idea, except that you have to remember that there are some "Tweeks" that ought to be allowed.
IF you were developing a print in the darkroom, you would have control over the color saturation, contrast, density, lightness, (dodge, burn- these would be pushing the envelope beyond "basic" darkroom tools) and such. This does not translate into the use of numerous layers, filters etc that are used to manipulate.
Most of my basic photos are "naked." In other words I only adjust the levels, warm the colors, and adjust the contrast then post. Altho' of late I have found myself cropping more than I would like... (The photos I pull from my Nikon Coolpix 5700 tend to be cooler than I prefer, so I warm the color a little-- very little, usually less than 6)
I agree that it would be very helpful to all of us to see if we could actually use the photo as it comes out of the camera, which would mean that we;
Crop in the field before shooting the subject
Took depth of field into consideration while in the field.
Focused with care.
Really observed and used the available lighting.
Chose the correct F-stop and Shutter speed.
And in general used what came out of the camera, with only "basic darkroom" tools.
Perhaps we should show the "original full negative" and the "print," with each submission.
I am all for relearning the basics, as I've said before. There is a lot to be gained. Just my thoughts on your idea.
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
I think that would be a GREAT idea, except that you have to remember that there are some "Tweeks" that ought to be allowed.
Of course... this is exactly what my second post addresses. The photo.net guidelines allow for this kind of "tweaking". It reads almost word for word what you just wrote. Click on that link I posted, you'll find its really quite good and exactly what we're agreeing on.
Of course... this is exactly what my second post addresses. The photo.net guidelines allow for this kind of "tweaking". It reads almost word for word what you just wrote. Click on that link I posted, you'll find its really quite good and exactly what we're agreeing on.
Erik;
Done... Yup you're right!
I saved it!!!
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
I think it's worth a try. AS long as we can work the contrast, levels and saturation, I think it makes for a good challenge. One catch - the number of people who heavily photoshop their images is fairly small, I suspect.
I think it's worth a try. AS long as we can work the contrast, levels and saturation, I think it makes for a good challenge. One catch - the number of people who heavily photoshop their images is fairly small, I suspect.
Sid...
I'm not so sure about that... I think there are quite a few "frequent PhotoShoppers," among those who regularly participate in the challenges. Some more heavy handed than others...
I love PhotoShop... But was taught that the goal in using it was that you couldn't tell it had been used. Look through the challenges, and see if you can detect the manipulations.
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
I think Waxy is close to right. Maybe what spurred me on was seeing quite a few submissions that made heavy use of Cletus' concurrent photoshop challenge. For example, this toning one has inspired what I consider some heavy use of layers.
Again, really, reiterate reiterate: I LOVE PS and highly appreciate how much I can learn about using it here on this forum. Photography is art, and PS is just another tool to bring it where the artist wants it.
I loved the idea of pathways, because it was an interpretation of an idea that you could photoshop or not. I have been using the shenanigans assignments back and forth, but my most successful, to me, and most obviously photoshopped thing would not work on pathways, even by the broadest interpretation.
Maybe you could have the theme, with rules under the theme. But some of us really do need to learn, hope to learn, I do. I can shoot a straight photograph, have been doing it for years, do the rules of thirds naturally. But if compositon is a problem area for some, then we could do the theme with the underlying composition rules or suggestions worked in.
Uh, I disagree that a photograph should always look natural, sometimes I think it should, or one might want it, to look anything but, and sometimes, one might want to just make a "natural" photograph "pop". One I put in the challenge, for the moment, it just didn't pop, it was bothering me as I really like the idea of the photograph, so I did layer upon layer, and it suddenly felt right, that is where I left it. I would almost defy anyone to pick it out, as it looks the least photoshopped of the photos I have up there, IMO.
Others look photoshopped, I wanted them to.
OK, I don't know anything about masking, would love to. I have no idea what the word levels means. And I can't read a histogram. I am buying one more book, but it really helps me to learn this stuff, and I don't see that it is wrong, or is the same as an assignment like pathways where you can photoshop or not.
I have been wondering about the last black and white ones, would love to know how they were made.
I have not made any suggestions, maybe I should, but I still would like learning to be incorporated, if wanted, into the results. If the rule were blk and white only, there are different ways to get there. I would like to know all of them, and I suppose that is Cletus thing, but I hate the idea of not using what I have learned as the more I use it, the more it is a part of my knowledge base.
Oh, I did say at one point that I would like to meet my neighbors, I just would say that I have changed my mind. I have had enough problems with this last assignment, and one of the scariest things was the people. I have often been around a group of people who definitely do not want their pictures taken. I think I am stealing their souls or something. It is very embarrassing for me, and scary for them. If I have taken their pictures, it has been with an extremely long lens and secretly, otherwise I have promised them that I would not put them in a picture. But I am tired of asking people. It makes my stomach knot up. If my family were here, I would take their pictures, but I would be dependent on strangers pictures, I have discovered that they terrify me. My being almost deaf probably is a factor there.
Ginger...
I think you have misinterpreted what we are saying, and you may want to go back, to the very beginning of the thread to follow it all. None of us is against PhotoShop. Least of all me... I have been using it since Photoshop 4 was out, and have a true love and respect for what it can do.
We are discussing the possibility of another Challenge. One that would primarily focus on the basics-- methods to build up and improve our general photography talents and skills. So you see, this was not intended to be an "instead of" but rather an "in addition to..."
Photoshop is a very potent tool. When used well it can enhance a photo, change it in thousands of ways both subtle or obvious... But there are times when manipulations actually destroy a photographic image, and turn it into less, rather than more. The line can be gray at first, but then quickly crossed. Nothing would please me more than to be a part of a forum on Photoshop Skills as well. You stated that you know nothing about Levels... You should look at Levels. Adjusting the levels is adjusting the balance of light (whites) to darks (blacks) within any give photo.
Adjusting the levels is one of the first things you should do, with a photo. (After of course saving the photo as a PSD file, which is the MOST important.) If you look at the Levels Graph of a couple of photos, you will probably notice that on some of the photos, the graph will bunch at either the light, or dark end with none of the graph reaching the opposite end. You want to adjust the slider so that the triangle almost touches the graph. Of course this is just a generality, and there really is much more to it, but if you start with Saving as a PSD File, then adjusting the levels, you are moving in the right direction, right from the start.
Here's a fun one I did...
"Frog Day at the Beach" How much is Photoshopped? How much is not? Did it help, or hurt? Only the viewer can form that opinion.
Anyway, I hold my viewpoint that along with Sid and Erik, I agree that it would be a good thing to have a challenge for "non-manipulated" photos as well.
I remain,
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
As usual, Ginette, the kind ambassador does a nice job of clearing things up. I thought about responding to some of Ginger's "rant" but you did it so much better.
As usual, Ginette, the kind ambassador does a nice job of clearing things up. I thought about responding to some of Ginger's "rant" but you did it so much better.
Thanks!
Aww Shucks Erik...
Kind Ambassador?
You think?
My family might get a chuckle out of that one!
But Thank you... I did try...
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
I find that I concentrate so much on composition that I tend to minimize the importance of light and color. I would like more assignments that force me to concentrate on these fundamentals.
One area where I think I'm especially weak is color. I would very much like to have to focus on color as a subject for a couple of weeks. Could make for some interesting shots. I guess my mind goes, not to a single vivid color, but to a kaleidoscope of colors. I've seen beautiful work like this, and recognize that I'm not even close to having that in my repertoire.
As I walk down a street looking for shots, I always look for shapes and composition, and I must miss hundreds of other opportunities as a result.
Themes
Here are my suggestions for next challenges;
Water; rain, rivers, sea..I think it is difficult and a real challenge,
Black & white portraits,
Motion/ movement; I really was inspired by the picture of John R: "saying goodbye"!
People at work.
Comments
One thing I love about photography is getting out of the house, meeting new people and seeing new places.
I think it would be fun to have a contest where you go to a new place, or meet someone new. Share the photo, and tell the story.
What do you think?
Dave
http://www.lifekapptured.com (gallery)
http://www.pbase.com/stfchallenge/challenge_64
a contest i recently hosted.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Andy, if the one you posted on pbase, I think it was, had to do with getting out and meeting and photographing your neighbors, I think that is a great idea.
My husband could walk the dogs, as he does anyway, and I could get off the couch, or the computer, to go with him, actually meet "neighbors" and take their pictures. And other dogs, too.
Etc. I think that is a great idea.
ginger jones
- flying things
- texture
- things smaller than 1" (time to practice macro shots...might have to pluck the petals off some flowers to get the target under 1")
- insects (kind of creepy but I bet we'd get some cool entries!)
- while on the water (picture must be taken while on the water...boat, kayak, wading, floating, swimming...)
- fishing-related
- something you made
- lunch
- cloud(s)
- pets
- dangling
- patterns
- behind the scenes
- emotion (posed pics excluded...capture an actual emotion in progress)
- watercraft
- people in uniform
- crowd scene
Simple and straight forward. A persons hands &/or feet tell the story of their life. In a much different way than the lines and creases etched into their faces-- yet still very telling...
"Paparazzi"
Photograph someone, or a group of "someones" unaware.
ginette
I'll repeat a suggestion that fell on deaf ears before.
Seems like we have at least a couple of goals in creating and participating in the photo challenges.
One, of course, is to enjoy the opportunity to make good photos and to share them with others.
Another, I think, is to improve our skills as photographers. It is towards that end that I make the following suggestion. Mix into the challenges, the standard lessons of photography courses. That way we can have fun, and learn as well.
For example, make one challenge about composition, using the rule of thirds (I'd suggest the Golden Mean but that makes my head hurt!) Make another challenge about using light to emphasize the subject. Learn how to use depth of field. Things like that. (I've never taken any photography courses, so I'm not the best guy to say what's in a typical syllabus.)
Perhaps others don't share my sense that the challenges can be used as a learning opportunity. If so, fair enough. On the other hand, many members may see this as a golden opportunity to learn basic photography skills in the fun environment of the challenges. I sure hope so!
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Sid:
I think that you may have hit on a good idea. Build some foundation work into the challenge. Seems few of us can hurt from re-emphasizing some of the basics, or the opportunity to gain new knowledge from one or a group who may know just a bit more on the subject, or offer a twist. It never hurts to look back at what we learned and try and build on it.
My nickles worth.
ginette
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Now that I have a battery grip on my camera, I think I'm all badass and too often forget about basics that I never mastered in the first place.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
EW!!!
Could be interesting tho'
Is anyone interested in a "non-manipulated" photo contest?
Let me make it totally clear, I'm not against the wonders of photoshop, but sometimes, I feel like I spend less time out in the street or in the woods composing a good quality shot and more time making decent shots better with x number of fill layers and toning and this and that.
This is more inline with Waxy's suggestion earlier about having topics that force us to rely and fall back on very fundamental principles.
We already have a weekly photoshop challenge too, so its not like an 'as-shot' challenge would take away anyone's chance to be creative in PS as well.
Anyone agree? comments?
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
http://www.photo.net/photodb/manipulation
notice things like desaturation to b/w are ok... with stipulations. Maybe we could add just that to our submissions: manipulated or not.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
I think that would be a GREAT idea, except that you have to remember that there are some "Tweeks" that ought to be allowed.
IF you were developing a print in the darkroom, you would have control over the color saturation, contrast, density, lightness, (dodge, burn- these would be pushing the envelope beyond "basic" darkroom tools) and such.
This does not translate into the use of numerous layers, filters etc that are used to manipulate.
Most of my basic photos are "naked." In other words I only adjust the levels, warm the colors, and adjust the contrast then post. Altho' of late I have found myself cropping more than I would like... (The photos I pull from my Nikon Coolpix 5700 tend to be cooler than I prefer, so I warm the color a little-- very little, usually less than 6)
I agree that it would be very helpful to all of us to see if we could actually use the photo as it comes out of the camera, which would mean that we;
- Crop in the field before shooting the subject
- Took depth of field into consideration while in the field.
- Focused with care.
- Really observed and used the available lighting.
- Chose the correct F-stop and Shutter speed.
- And in general used what came out of the camera, with only "basic darkroom" tools.
Perhaps we should show the "original full negative" and the "print," with each submission.I am all for relearning the basics, as I've said before. There is a lot to be gained. Just my thoughts on your idea.
ginette
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Done... Yup you're right!
I saved it!!!
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I'm not so sure about that... I think there are quite a few "frequent PhotoShoppers," among those who regularly participate in the challenges. Some more heavy handed than others...
I love PhotoShop... But was taught that the goal in using it was that you couldn't tell it had been used. Look through the challenges, and see if you can detect the manipulations.
ginette
Again, really, reiterate reiterate: I LOVE PS and highly appreciate how much I can learn about using it here on this forum. Photography is art, and PS is just another tool to bring it where the artist wants it.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Maybe you could have the theme, with rules under the theme. But some of us really do need to learn, hope to learn, I do. I can shoot a straight photograph, have been doing it for years, do the rules of thirds naturally. But if compositon is a problem area for some, then we could do the theme with the underlying composition rules or suggestions worked in.
Uh, I disagree that a photograph should always look natural, sometimes I think it should, or one might want it, to look anything but, and sometimes, one might want to just make a "natural" photograph "pop". One I put in the challenge, for the moment, it just didn't pop, it was bothering me as I really like the idea of the photograph, so I did layer upon layer, and it suddenly felt right, that is where I left it. I would almost defy anyone to pick it out, as it looks the least photoshopped of the photos I have up there, IMO.
Others look photoshopped, I wanted them to.
OK, I don't know anything about masking, would love to. I have no idea what the word levels means. And I can't read a histogram. I am buying one more book, but it really helps me to learn this stuff, and I don't see that it is wrong, or is the same as an assignment like pathways where you can photoshop or not.
I have been wondering about the last black and white ones, would love to know how they were made.
I have not made any suggestions, maybe I should, but I still would like learning to be incorporated, if wanted, into the results. If the rule were blk and white only, there are different ways to get there. I would like to know all of them, and I suppose that is Cletus thing, but I hate the idea of not using what I have learned as the more I use it, the more it is a part of my knowledge base.
Oh, I did say at one point that I would like to meet my neighbors, I just would say that I have changed my mind. I have had enough problems with this last assignment, and one of the scariest things was the people. I have often been around a group of people who definitely do not want their pictures taken. I think I am stealing their souls or something. It is very embarrassing for me, and scary for them. If I have taken their pictures, it has been with an extremely long lens and secretly, otherwise I have promised them that I would not put them in a picture. But I am tired of asking people. It makes my stomach knot up. If my family were here, I would take their pictures, but I would be dependent on strangers pictures, I have discovered that they terrify me. My being almost deaf probably is a factor there.
Sorry for the rant.
ginger
I think you have misinterpreted what we are saying, and you may want to go back, to the very beginning of the thread to follow it all. None of us is against PhotoShop. Least of all me... I have been using it since Photoshop 4 was out, and have a true love and respect for what it can do.
We are discussing the possibility of another Challenge. One that would primarily focus on the basics-- methods to build up and improve our general photography talents and skills. So you see, this was not intended to be an "instead of" but rather an "in addition to..."
Photoshop is a very potent tool. When used well it can enhance a photo, change it in thousands of ways both subtle or obvious... But there are times when manipulations actually destroy a photographic image, and turn it into less, rather than more. The line can be gray at first, but then quickly crossed. Nothing would please me more than to be a part of a forum on Photoshop Skills as well. You stated that you know nothing about Levels... You should look at Levels. Adjusting the levels is adjusting the balance of light (whites) to darks (blacks) within any give photo.
Adjusting the levels is one of the first things you should do, with a photo. (After of course saving the photo as a PSD file, which is the MOST important.) If you look at the Levels Graph of a couple of photos, you will probably notice that on some of the photos, the graph will bunch at either the light, or dark end with none of the graph reaching the opposite end. You want to adjust the slider so that the triangle almost touches the graph. Of course this is just a generality, and there really is much more to it, but if you start with Saving as a PSD File, then adjusting the levels, you are moving in the right direction, right from the start.
Here's a fun one I did...
"Frog Day at the Beach"
How much is Photoshopped? How much is not? Did it help, or hurt? Only the viewer can form that opinion.
Anyway, I hold my viewpoint that along with Sid and Erik, I agree that it would be a good thing to have a challenge for "non-manipulated" photos as well.
I remain,
ginette
Thanks!
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Kind Ambassador?
You think?
My family might get a chuckle out of that one!
But Thank you... I did try...
ginette
One area where I think I'm especially weak is color. I would very much like to have to focus on color as a subject for a couple of weeks. Could make for some interesting shots. I guess my mind goes, not to a single vivid color, but to a kaleidoscope of colors. I've seen beautiful work like this, and recognize that I'm not even close to having that in my repertoire.
As I walk down a street looking for shots, I always look for shapes and composition, and I must miss hundreds of other opportunities as a result.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Here are my suggestions for next challenges;
Water; rain, rivers, sea..I think it is difficult and a real challenge,
Black & white portraits,
Motion/ movement; I really was inspired by the picture of John R: "saying goodbye"!
People at work.
Suggestion for new assignment: Freedom
ginger