Selling Photographs on SM, from public locations w/

MarkDickinsonPhotography · May 14, 2009

[FONT=&quot]This is what I've got against me.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Mr. Dickinson,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You have stated to me that you access the playing field in side the fence and take photographs of the participants at the City of Port Orange organized sports activities for the purpose of selling the photographs to those viewing your website. It appears that the photographs clearly identify the participants’ face, the team names and players’ number.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have spoken with the City Manager, Kenneth Parker, and confirmed that the city council has not considered or approved any agreement authorizing you to photographs at the ball games in exchange for a donation to the city. The city staff may not give you permission to conduct the photography as described above. On behalf of the city, you are advised to immediately cease from entering the playing field and return to Steve Wolf the city issued picture identification. You are further advised to cease the use, if any, of the name of the City of Port Orange in association with your photography business. Florida law restricts the photographing of participants in the City of Port Orange sports activities unless you have obtained the express written or oral consent to such photography by the person, and if the participant is a minor, the consent of the guardian of the minor or by either parent, in compliance with the requirements of Section 540.08(1), Florida Statutes. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If the photograph is of a “person solely as member of the public and where such person is not named or otherwise identified”, the exemption stated in Section 540.08(4)(c), Florida Statutes, may apply. However, after a review of the case law on this subject, I have advised the city manager that the photography as described herein is not within the legal exception of “solely as a member of the public”.
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Has anyone come across this. Turning something innocent, and handle-able on an individual basis in the nothing. There is ton's more to this story than here. The statute quoted doesn't prohibit me but the response is indicating 'review of case law' is what prohibits me. I don't have any caselaw available to me regarding this and through my research.

My story :

1. Sponsored a team
2. Requested permission to shoot photographs in exchange for 20% back to city
3. City did a background check, and then allowed me on the field.
4. 2000+ shots since season started posted on smugmug
5. city got a complaint from a parent, and instead of letting me handle that directly shut it down. Told me to take my site offline, and don't go take any more photographs. EVEN after asking can I take them like a normal citizen outside of the fence. Answer was no.
6. I tried to help out and provide all my work research regarding this and responses from attorneys, while I was seeking if this is ok to do. (always a friendly approach to the city) Nothing stating, "my attorney this, or that" Just, "I found this information out maybe it will help" and so on.
7. Received this letter, wrote back if they are prohibiting me from taking them at the park as a normal citizen. It sounds like it because of the case law line. (but there is nothing Im aware of on a DOE V DOE case search

What's your suggestion photographers, have you ran across this? Btw, check disney and all the other theme parks because we bought or photos from the web from the park... Kids, adults, posted, profits....(quasi-public place)

Thank you,

Mark
mark@ptph.com
markdickinsonphotography.smugmug.com
:clap

Angelo · May 14, 2009

The information above is confusing at best and subject to whatever specific municipal statutes exist in Port of Orange that may or may not exist in other municipalities.

I think you need professional advice more than blog comments to help you through this.

Blaker · May 14, 2009

Angelo wrote:

The information above is confusing at best and subject to whatever specific municipal statutes exist in Port of Orange that may or may not exist in other municipalities.

I think you need professional advice more than blog comments to help you through this.

Very confusing and I suspect there is a lot more to the story than we are getting.
I agree with Angelo, if this is something you want to fight, I'd suggest consulting a lawyer.
( and what's Disney got to do with it?)

MarkDickinsonPhotography · May 15, 2009

Disney

Blaker wrote:

Very confusing and I suspect there is a lot more to the story than we are getting.
I agree with Angelo, if this is something you want to fight, I'd suggest consulting a lawyer.
( and what's Disney got to do with it?)

Disney, and other theme parks sell your photos to you online, however a private park it falls within the same guidelines.

The city's letter to me is just saying that I can't take photos from a public place. Thats all, Kinda posting this for people to read and I have contacted an attorney, and requested info from the ACLU since they hosted a conference about this. All reply back with yes there is nothing in our statutes that say we can not do this. Our city ordinance doesn't say we can not do it either.

www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Photographers that shoot photos in public will run across this at some point in time. I don't really have more to the story on my end, and there was no other photographer shooting these photos on the field, as I was.

Cygnus Studios · May 15, 2009

Totally agree with the others, this is a matter of law and you will have to have your attorney settle this matter.
Now the question becomes is it worth the financial costs to fight the city?
Then you will have to ask yourself if winning is worth the bridges that could be burned with the city?

fredjclaus · May 15, 2009

This is something best left up to a lawyer since Florida law is far different from any other law on the books.

I do know that in my town LL baseball team, we have a "Photo likeness" form signed by all the parents. That covers the town and the teams from lawsuits by parents who don't want their kids picture taken. Not sure how you would get back on the field though if they told you not to even if you ask.

Also not sure what the ACLU can do for you, I've never heard of them taking on a case like this. They mainly work with religious issues. Let me know if they do help you though, I'd be interested in knowing how this turns out for you.

Angelo · May 15, 2009

fredjclaus wrote:

...Also not sure what the ACLU can do for you... They mainly work with religious issues...

not to derail this discussion but that statement is not accurate. The ACLU deals with all manner of civil liberties, not just religious issues. They are currently involved with a case involving Photographer's Rights in Los Angeles.

moose135 · May 16, 2009

Angelo wrote:

The ACLU deals with all manner of civil liberties, not just religious issues. They are currently involved with a case involving Photographer's Rights in Los Angeles.

And they were instrumental in keeping NYC from enacting draconian restrictions on photographers as well.

snaptie2002 · May 16, 2009

MarkDickinsonPhotography wrote:

[FONT=&quot]This is what I've got against me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have spoken with the City Manager, Kenneth Parker, and confirmed that the city council has not considered or approved any agreement authorizing you to photographs at the ball games in exchange for a donation to the city. The city staff may not give you permission to conduct the photography as described above. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

2. Requested permission to shoot photographs in exchange for 20% back to city
3. City did a background check, and then allowed me on the field.

Both sides of this can not be true. Even if you have written permission from the city (it's unclear whether you do or not) that's not the same as a contract so it can easily be revoked.

As far as shooting from outside the fence. What's the point? You can probably shoot all you want to. The problem comes when you try to sell them, in which case it doesn't matter where you shoot from.

Let us know what your lawyer says. You are in a situation we are all subject to be in someday.

Marty

fredjclaus · May 16, 2009

That's good to hear. I'd be interested in learning how this turns out. Keep me posted.

Selling Photographs on SM, from public locations w/

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