My first wedding shoot...oh my.

PackingMyBags · February 17, 2009

Well, i had a friend come to me on short notice and ask me to take their wedding photos. I was a little nervous, at first, but after realizing that i wasn't getting paid and that this was good experience i said sure. In the end i got a free dinner and 500+ exposures. In all it was a good day.

Anyways here they are. BTW this was my first work with Photoshop and Photomatix. Any comments are welcomed. Thanks

Candid Arts · February 17, 2009

2, 4, 8, and 10 are the best for me.
Great work. First weddings are always a little nerve racking, but in the end fun and not as bad as you thought they'd be.

Congrats, look forward to seeing more.

Matthew Saville · February 18, 2009

PackingMyBags wrote:

Well, i had a friend come to me on short notice and ask me to take their wedding photos. I was a little nervous, at first, but after realizing that i wasn't getting paid and that this was good experience i said sure. In the end i got a free dinner and 500+ exposures. In all it was a good day.

Anyways here they are. BTW this was my first work with Photoshop and Photomatix. Any comments are welcomed. Thanks

Hi PMB,

I'm going to be a little blunt here, so frankly you may not want to read any further... But I'm saying this because I care about you, and I care deeply for all the brides out there:

...You need to not shoot any more weddings as the primary shooter. Flat-out. Don't do it again.

You have a good eye for candid moments, but other than that you need to work around some professionals and see how an experienced wedding photographer finds the best light, the best poses, and how they shoot in general.

I don't want you to think I'm I'm insulting your photographic ability or potential. All I want to do is maybe scold you a bit just for saying "yes"...

I would strongly encourage you to practice, gain experience, raise your standards, and if you're interested in shooting weddings professionally, you should assist / 2nd shoot for some experienced pros first to see how they work. I'm all in favor of "getting into the business", but I just want to encourage everyone out there to go through the proper training before taking on a professional responsibility...

Take care and good luck,
=Matt=

(Everyone else feel free to pile on me now and scold me for being so negative; I can take it...)

bmoreshooter · February 18, 2009

I certainly disagree with Matt. First of all the photos are not that bad. I've seen much worse from wedding shooters with a lot of experience. It's a bit difficult to determine how the whole wedding turned out after all there are 480 more photos we have not seen. Since it was an unpaid gig it was quite acceptable to do the job without experience as long as the couple knew it. You did not promise anything other than your best attempt. If you want to continue as a wedding photographer it certainly would be necessary to get some background and experience as a second shooter. Read as much as you can. I recommend subscribing to Rangefinder Magazine. It's free and provides a lot of good information to wedding photographers. You seem to know the equipment that your working with so now you need to study posing and wedding protocol. Don't try to be too fancy in the beginning. You chose a lot of unusual angles all of which did not add to the quality of the shots. It's a good start. Keep shooting and keep learning. If a couple agrees to let you shoot their wedding either because of financial or other reasons I think you can produce an acceptable job. Just make sure they understand your ability and experience level up front.

System · February 18, 2009

The one with everyone on the "bridge"...crop out the weeds at the bottom and the groom has a flag pole growing out of his head. You need to pay more attention to the BG.

PackingMyBags · February 18, 2009

Thanks for the comments guys. All of them are appreciated. Like stated earlier I was approached by my friend (bride) to take their wedding photos. They were short on time and didn't have any $ to spend, so i accepted. They knew what they were getting into with me not having any wedding experience.

There were also 2 other photographers that she called up as well. Both of them are friends of mine and actually had more time/instruction behind their cameras. I was hoping that they would take the lead, but both of them wanted me to be the lead photographer. Somehow my having a better camera warranted me as the better photographer. I just laughed and said whatever.

Matt...lol...thanks for the scolding. At this point i would much rather be kicked in the nuts than patted on the back. Ive only owned or touched a DSLR for 6 months and am absorbing info as fast as i can. This shoot was done 4 months after owning it. All i had for the shoot was my camera(40d), and lens (28-135). I know im no Pro, but im taking step, or taking chances as im sure you would say. I wouldnt mind being a second photographer, but im actually not in this as a profession as of yet.

bmore...Thanks for your comments. I know i need more experience and im perfectly fine with getting it all down. Yea i took tons of pics for the shoot. I guess i was trigger happy. i dont know why, but i kept on taking 3 shot AEP's for HDR's. I will never do that again. HDR's and weddings almost always dont work. The funny thing is that the only area they wanted to shoot in was the temple and dinner at Olive Garden. I probably should have cased out both areas ahead of time and made notes on how i wanted to set up the shots, but it really was a last minute thing and i was just rolling with the punches. Next time I do something like this i will arrive early and all myself to walk around and get a good feel for my surroundings. Also is that mag an online version, or is it mailed out?

Captain...yea i noticed that afterwards. The pole was irritating, and the grass i was actually trying to get in the pic. There were small flowers there, but im afraid i missed them.

Candid...thanks for the compliments. Those are some of my favs as well. If you look really close at #4 you can see a shape of a heart in the clouds. It was almost 100% natural, but i tried to PS it a little. This was my first time ever using PS and i had no idea what i was doing. I kind of laugh at it now, but i dont think its too bad. Either way she got both copies, so im sure she doesnt mind.

Thanks again for the comments. Keep them coming!

Matthew Saville · February 19, 2009

Yep, those are all things that go into being a professional- scoping out the area beforehand, OR simply relying on sheer experience and raw talent to walk into a wedding blind. Either way, professionals have at least one of those things up their sleeve.

And minding your background. I would wager that the background is EXPONENTIALLY more important than any other element of the picture. You can get away with boring poses ANY day of the week if your background is managed well. Consider:

1st shot- background nice and blurred, evenly lit, nothing poking out of bride's head, = I get away with a totally straightforward pose....

2nd shot- shooting wider, so less shallow DOF, so I gotta be careful about what is in the background, frame the shot just right, and come up with a dynamic pose that draws your eyes in...

Also, just to continue the whole conversation with respect to other photographers encouraging you that you did well and to keep trying, and concerning brides inquiring with zero budget for photography- I maintain my assertion that you ought to refuse as strongly as you can before giving in and shooting at your current level of photography. You (and anyone who has standards that allow them to encourage you to try again as the primary shooter) have so much more to learn, watching other pros shoot, studying thousands of their images, etc. etc...

Encourage them to spend money on photography, even if they can only come up with a few hundred bucks. $500 is all you need for what I'm about to advise- DO NOT think of it in terms of how cheaply you can get complete coverage...$500 for complete coverage is the quickest path to an un-qualified Craigslist photographer who will assuredly leave couples un-satisfied and sorry that they spent even that little money.

...Take that $500 and buy a simple, 1-2 hour day-after bridal session with an experienced pro. The bridal portraits are where you will notice BY FAR the biggest difference between the experienced pro and the weekend warrior.

Because I'll give 'em credit- the amateurs can often do just as good as I can when it comes to random candid shots during the ceremony and reception. And yet, I can smell bad portraiture from a mile away...

So, that's how I'm advising "zero" budget brides & grooms these days. And I'd encourage every other photographer out there to do the same when approached by a couple looking to forego the expense altogether. Take that zero and add juuuust a little bit to it. You (as a bride and groom) will thank yourself in 20 years, when ALL YOU HAVE is those photos...

I really do understand the financial situation that couples are in, too. I'm getting married on April 4th, and barely scraping by as a freelance photographer. But I'm only getting married once. And I'm not ever going to return to this age, so when I'm 60, heck when my KIDS are 30, I just want to have at least some quality portraits of Joy & I looking our best. And for our kids, and our grandkids, to look at.

So, I'm totally encouraging you (and anybody else) to take those little steps, taking chances. Just take the *right* steps, very carefully, and don't take any chances if you aren't fully confident in your ability to deliver memorable images. Practice on family / senior portraits and stuff. Because those you can just reschedule if things go poorly. And connect with other wedding / portrait photographers to see how they work.

Even if you have no intention of making wedding or portrait photography a profession, you still have to deliver professional results when called upon and it's somebody's wedding day...

Warmly,
=Matt=

[BTW- There are huge communities of wedding and portrait photographers out there that you can join, and simply go on misc. photo shoots together. Start a facebook group for local photographers who want to go on photo shoots, and offer to buy some good-looking friends a free dinner if they'll model for you. Whatever you can do to practice!

ChatKat · February 19, 2009

Good ideas
I think that you get an A for trying. I am sure that the newlyweds will be happy to have some images of their day. When people don't value the photography to hire a professional for the most important day of their lives, then the likelihood they will value quality in photography is small as well. For me, those are not my clients.

There is a lot of technical experience lacking in the images. - mostly the hightlights are blown in the white and the detail in the dress is missing. There is already mentioned the composition issues.

One of the big issues today for wedding photographers are people with little experience and who are learning and eagar to shoot. As photographers, we need to educate people who think that just because you have the equipment that you are qualified to shoot a wedding. It's really hard to make sure that all the details are taken care of. It takes years of practice to get from owning a camera to creating a work of art.

Matt, I think you have some great ideas for those who are thinking of learning more about shooting. Having just come from WPPI, I'd add that if you are interesting in furthering your professionalism in wedding and portrait work that you think about adding the WPPI show to you learning opportunities next March in Las Vegas.

bmoreshooter · February 19, 2009

PMB go to rangefinder.com Magazine is available in print and online. (print version is free)

geospatial_junkie · February 19, 2009

PMB...

I think you definitely gave it a good effort. Matt raised some very good points (some I had already heeded before my first upcoming wedding). Try to get on as a second-shooter for various photographers it will help immensely! Matt's portfolio is definitely something to strive for and you should probably follow his advise.

As for critiques, I always find it interesting who decides to give advise... some have the portfolio's to back it up and others... well...

My portfolio is nothing to brag about yet so I am just trumpeting Matt's sentiments. However, everyone needs to start somewhere and many times photographers don't want anyone else involved so its tough to get a second-shooter gig.

One poster mentioned that you should look at attending the WPPI at some point? I'm curious how that will make someone a better photographer? Maybe attending the seminars there would help, but I can't see it helping that much (even if it did... you better have the cashola to do pay).

I think I learned more about dealing with people and improvisation when things don't go as planned from a second-shooter perspective that I did about positioning and lighting. Most photographers I assisted with were of the photojournalistic style (two were modern and none were traditional). The preparation involved in shooting some of the weddings sometimes appeared to be more work than the wedding's themselves.

What equipment were you shooting with? Did you use off-camera flash, reflectors, etc...?

Best of luck in the future and hopefully you learned something from this!

bmoreshooter · February 19, 2009

geospatial_junkie wrote:

PMB...

I think you definitely gave it a good effort. Matt raised some very good points (some I had already heeded before my first upcoming wedding). Try to get on as a second-shooter for various photographers it will help immensely! Matt's portfolio is definitely something to strive for and you should probably follow his advise.

As for critiques, I always find it interesting who decides to give advise... some have the portfolio's to back it up and others... well...

My portfolio is nothing to brag about yet so I am just trumpeting Matt's sentiments. However, everyone needs to start somewhere and many times photographers don't want anyone else involved so its tough to get a second-shooter gig.

One poster mentioned that you should look at attending the WPPI at some point? I'm curious how that will make someone a better photographer? Maybe attending the seminars there would help, but I can't see it helping that much (even if it did... you better have the cashola to do pay).

I think I learned more about dealing with people and improvisation when things don't go as planned from a second-shooter perspective that I did about positioning and lighting. Most photographers I assisted with were of the photojournalistic style (two were modern and none were traditional). The preparation involved in shooting some of the weddings sometimes appeared to be more work than the wedding's themselves.

What equipment were you shooting with? Did you use off-camera flash, reflectors, etc...?

Best of luck in the future and hopefully you learned something from this!

I agree about WPPI. It is a show/seminar designed to make money. It could be good however to mingle with professional photographers if you can afford the price. There is also the high cost of travel unless of course you live close by. It would be very unusual for a new photog to have the funds to spend. I think your money would be better spent on lessons from local shooters or schools. Practical experience is the best teacher.
On the subject of portfolios I would not be overly impressed by a good web page. Very rarely do you see a full wedding posted for public viewing. I have been a full time professional photographer for 29 years and I do not have a website nor do I spend any money on advertising. My potential customers come to my studio and see my work in print. If you look at many of the websites of people critiqueing others work here you will see many of the same mistakes in their work. I recently posted a few pictures on smugmug to help stimulate conversation and become part of this forum. I certainly don't expect to get work from here so I don't intend to spend any effort on posting photos in a portfolio.
I don't think that PBM posted his work just to be told not to do it anymore. I believe that Matt is a respectable photographer with relavent advice but instead of using his whole reply to scold PMB perhaps he could have given advice on how to improve his photos. I could be wrong but i think that is what most of the new shooters are here for.

bmoreshooter · February 19, 2009

PMB, if you are interested I would be happy to show you how to improve a couple of the shots you posted. You should remember that most of the photos you see on the web have been post-processed in photoshop before posting. If you are'nt familiar with photoshop yet you should get to know it.
Now that we are shooting digital more fixing is necessary than when we shot film. Digital is not as forgiving as film and just requires more work. On the other hand digital allows us much more creativity. It would really be nice if we could just print everything just as we shot it but that's not the case.

geospatial_junkie · February 19, 2009

bmoreshooter wrote:

I agree about WPPI. It is a show/seminar designed to make money. It could be good however to mingle with professional photographers if you can afford the price. There is also the high cost of travel unless of course you live close by. It would be very unusual for a new photog to have the funds to spend. I think your money would be better spent on lessons from local shooters or schools. Practical experience is the best teacher.
On the subject of portfolios I would not be overly impressed by a good web page. Very rarely do you see a full wedding posted for public viewing. I have been a full time professional photographer for 29 years and I do not have a website nor do I spend any money on advertising. My potential customers come to my studio and see my work in print. If you look at many of the websites of people critiqueing others work here you will see many of the same mistakes in their work. I recently posted a few pictures on smugmug to help stimulate conversation and become part of this forum. I certainly don't expect to get work from here so I don't intend to spend any effort on posting photos in a portfolio.
I don't think that PBM posted his work just to be told not to do it anymore. I believe that Matt is a respectable photographer with relavent advice but instead of using his whole reply to scold PMB perhaps he could have given advice on how to improve his photos. I could be wrong but i think that is what most of the new shooters are here for.

Web-sites are another tool (arguably the best one) to display your work in today's market. Especially, when you haven't got a studio for people to come to. Usually a website gets them in the door. Good wedding albums to display your work can also be expensive (but they are definitely essential as are prints) but these ultimately make the sale.

As for Matt's comments, he probably could have been a little more constructive, however, thats the dice your role when posting on a forum. I'm a blunt person myself, so I can understand that.

As for the photos, I'll post a response on each below to get the ball rolling.

#1. Don't see anything wrong with the shot. However, it is "just a shot". I think its a good candid moment. It may be used as filler on a DVD, put probably wouldn't make the second round of cuts. The bottom half of the bride's dress is blown out and most of the photo could have benefited from a little fill-flash.

#2. There is nice potential in this shot, especially with the background. I am not traditional so perfectly horizontal backgrounds do not bother me. What I see though, are reddish faces, a blown out dress, and your white balance appears to be too bluish. Again, fill flash would have helped balance out their faces here and maybe alleviated some of the redness. It would have been nice to get the bride's feet in the shot (maybe dangling a shoe...).

#3. Again, there is nice potential in this shot, but I suspect it was converted to grayscale and not true black & white. Search some of the tutorials on how to convert to black & white properly in dgrin. Also, it appears that you overexposed the sky. This can be a tough shot... once again... fill-flash the foreground at maybe 1/30s or 1/50s to keep nice ambient light in the sky background.

#4. One of your best shots. The pose is dramatic and so is the lighting. The landscaper in me really dislikes the center positioning here.... BUT, for some reason I feel it works.

#5. Nice candid shot, however, many brides won't want this shot because of the way it makes them look. Did you use a polarizer here? The colours appear to be a bit washed out. I can tell the sun was really bright that day.

#6. FILL-FLASH and a reflector. Both their eyes are too dark. Also, the bride's dress is overexposed. She paid a lot of money for it... you need to make sure to get those details. Also your white balance is off and there is a yellowish-green cast to the photo.

#7. Nice attempt here. First, there is a pole growing out of the groom's head. Secondy, too many harsh shadows are playing across the bridal party to shoot this without any type of lighting assistance. Third, the brides dress is overexposed again. Fourth, the positioning of the bridal party is too random... maybe get the tallest people closest to the center. Fifth, the shot is taken from too far away. Was this at 200mm? I would want to be closer to the group I think and get more detail.

#8. The pose here is mostly fine and traditional. I would have her twist a little more back towards the camera. The dress is blown out again and has blue hue to it. Also, the sky is too cartoonish with the way the blue was rendered. I would darken the sky a bit in post-processing to make it more natural. I did like how you positioned her between the spire and fence.

#9. This image is too flat. More flash (reflectors too) would have made her eyes stand out more as well as her facial features and bouquet. Maybe boost the colours in post-processing, also soften the image a bit to make it pop.

#10. Too much tone-mapping in this image to appear somewhat realistic. Again, you've centered the shot and this is visually unappealing. Check out tutorials on the "Rule of Thirds" or the "Golden Mean" for more info.

#11. This shot is overexposed by about 2-stops I would assume. Also, your white balance again appears to be off. The image is centered and there is too much space around the groom. I would have zoomed in so the groom encompassed the entire shot and used a zens with much wider aperture (2.8 or lower).

#12. Too dark. Need flash and/or reflectors. There is also some posterization happening on the brides dress and around the grooms face.

#13. This is nice shot! The couple is just off-center (I like) and its just interesting enough of a background to view. Again, there is a slight blue hue on the brides dress. I would have slightly lowered the bouquet so I can see the detail on the bride's dress. Maybe you can bring some of it out in post-processing.

#14. Eyes are way too dark in this photo. Again, fill flash needed.

#15. I'm not liking the low-angle. It makes the parent's and the groom's face appear awkward. Again, fill-flash needed.

Overall Things to Work On:

1. Exposure and white balance are very incosistent. More experience will help you here. Also shoot RAW instead of JPG to allow you a little more flexibility.

2. Fill-flash and the usuage of reflectors. Most of your shots border on the modern and traditional styles of photography. You'll need to master using a flash and/or reflectors properly to get those colours to pop.

3. Posing and positioning for group shots. Also Using lighting to create nice balanced light for group shots.

4. Post-processing techniques. Refine these so that you aren't getting completely unrealistic effects (i.e. the tone mapping). Nowadays brides want the photoshop touchups, but nothing that looks to unrealistic.

5. Developing your eye. As Matt stated, shoot many times as a second-shooter and you'll start to develop your own style. It will come easier to you.

Best of luck!:D

ChatKat · February 19, 2009

Wppi
I was the one who posted about going to WPPI; If someone was interested in shooting weddings there are platform classes included in the registration all geared to the professional shooter all day for many days; It's not just a trade show, although the best in the business are speaking and showing work and how it was created. Yes, there are many there just to sell to the photographer, but, like anything - you get out of things that you put into it. To Hear Hanson Fong, Joe Bussink, Yervant and many others speak and demonstrate and too see the results of high end photography are lessons in and of themselves. A ticket to Vegas with a room and a tradeshow pass/shared full registration can be less than $500 if you are a savvy shopper. And adding to that were a dozen or more tagalong shoots that I am aware of that cost little or nothing and were an exchange between photographers on posing and lighting as well as exchanges of gear and tips that were priceless.

Editing to add that Rangefinder Magazine is the magazine for WPPI members.

joshhuntnm · February 20, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

Hi PMB,

I'm going to be a little blunt here, so frankly you may not want to read any further... But I'm saying this because I care about you, and I care deeply for all the brides out there:

...You need to not shoot any more weddings as the primary shooter. Flat-out. Don't do it again.

You have a good eye for candid moments, but other than that you need to work around some professionals and see how an experienced wedding photographer finds the best light, the best poses, and how they shoot in general.

I don't want you to think I'm I'm insulting your photographic ability or potential. All I want to do is maybe scold you a bit just for saying "yes"...

I would strongly encourage you to practice, gain experience, raise your standards, and if you're interested in shooting weddings professionally, you should assist / 2nd shoot for some experienced pros first to see how they work. I'm all in favor of "getting into the business", but I just want to encourage everyone out there to go through the proper training before taking on a professional responsibility...

Take care and good luck,
=Matt=

(Everyone else feel free to pile on me now and scold me for being so negative; I can take it...)

I totally disagree. When we got married a few years ago, i was on a really small budget. it is a second wedding for both of us and a comparatively small affair. We wanted someone with a good 35mm (before the days of digital; I actually bought my first Canon Digital Rebel the next day.) snap a few shots. We asked around. That is we wanted. That is what we paid for. and that is what we got. I don't remember what we paid this gal, but it wasn't much. the pics weren't much either, but that is what we wanted. There is a place in this world for Wal-mart and Nehman Marcus. The key thing is honesty. My first wedding I told the BG very clearly, "I have never done this before." since then, people can look at my work and see if it is worth what I chagre and decide for themselves.

Photogaphy is art. What do you charge for Art? Whatever it is worth to you--according to the art. I don't fault the guy who can charge and get 10 grand for a wedding, but I think there is a place in this world for those of us who are learning. Honesty is the key.

joshhuntnm · February 20, 2009

I posted another post about a post. As to the pics. i don't think they are so bad. I am curious. . . what did the bride think?

Most of the problems can be fixed with a little Photoshop love.

Matthew Saville · February 20, 2009

I don't think that PBM posted his work just to be told not to do it anymore. I believe that Matt is a respectable photographer with relavent advice but instead of using his whole reply to scold PMB perhaps he could have given advice on how to improve his photos. I could be wrong but i think that is what most of the new shooters are here for.

You're right, I could have said more than simply dont do it again until you have lots more experience. But I did feel that I needed to drive the point home and create a sense of how important it is to make sure as many brides as can afford it, go with a professional whose results they will be happy with not just the first time they see them, but 20, 40 years down the road. I hope my curt-ness has done the trick.

And I knew that most everybody else here (bless your heart) would be a bit soft and/or do the image-by-image critique for me. I just don't want beginners to get 100% "good job, nice effort, keep trying," etc. etc. I believe that the best, most beautiful things in life are the ones that have the resolve and energy to rise out of an unforgiving thorn patch.

So hopefully someday, PMB will rock my world. I sure know I'm not *that* great at wedding photography!

I totally disagree. When we got married a few years ago, i was on a really small budget. it is a second wedding for both of us and a comparatively small affair. We wanted someone with a good 35mm (before the days of digital; I actually bought my first Canon Digital Rebel the next day.) snap a few shots. We asked around. That is we wanted. That is what we paid for. and that is what we got. I don't remember what we paid this gal, but it wasn't much. the pics weren't much either, but that is what we wanted. There is a place in this world for Wal-mart and Nehman Marcus. The key thing is honesty. My first wedding I told the BG very clearly, "I have never done this before." since then, people can look at my work and see if it is worth what I chagre and decide for themselves.

Photogaphy is art. What do you charge for Art? Whatever it is worth to you--according to the art. I don't fault the guy who can charge and get 10 grand for a wedding, but I think there is a place in this world for those of us who are learning. Honesty is the key.

There will always be a market for zero budget, indeed. I do understand that some people simply do not value photography as much, or simply do not value it enough to spend what it costs. And the beginners are more than welcome to connect with these couples.

But I would still urge people to raise their standards. Always be raising your standards. I raise my standards with each wedding *I* shoot, and always will.

Good luck to all!
=Matt=

PackingMyBags · February 20, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

Yep, those are all things that go into being a professional- scoping out the area beforehand, OR simply relying on sheer experience and raw talent to walk into a wedding blind. Either way, professionals have at least one of those things up their sleeve.

And minding your background. I would wager that the background is EXPONENTIALLY more important than any other element of the picture. You can get away with boring poses ANY day of the week if your background is managed well. Consider:

1st shot- background nice and blurred, evenly lit, nothing poking out of bride's head, = I get away with a totally straightforward pose....

2nd shot- shooting wider, so less shallow DOF, so I gotta be careful about what is in the background, frame the shot just right, and come up with a dynamic pose that draws your eyes in...

Thanks for the visual aids. They really helped out. I really like the softness and glow of her skin. Was most of that attributed to camera setup, or Photoshop? Also what lenses were you using in the two? I felt pretty limited with the 28-135. I really wanted a more wide angle lens as well as a lower F stop. 3.5 was my max, so i felt a little held back at times. I wont blame it all on my gear because i know that there is more that i could have done. Either way it was a great learning experience for me.

chatcat wrote:

I think that you get an A for trying. I am sure that the newlyweds will be happy to have some images of their day. When people don't value the photography to hire a professional for the most important day of their lives, then the likelihood they will value quality in photography is small as well. For me, those are not my clients.

There is a lot of technical experience lacking in the images. - mostly the hightlights are blown in the white and the detail in the dress is missing. There is already mentioned the composition issues.

One of the big issues today for wedding photographers are people with little experience and who are learning and eagar to shoot. As photographers, we need to educate people who think that just because you have the equipment that you are qualified to shoot a wedding. It's really hard to make sure that all the details are taken care of. It takes years of practice to get from owning a camera to creating a work of art.

Matt, I think you have some great ideas for those who are thinking of learning more about shooting. Having just come from WPPI, I'd add that if you are interesting in furthering your professionalism in wedding and portrait work that you think about adding the WPPI show to you learning opportunities next March in Las Vegas.

Thank you. I agree that the gear doesn't make the person. That is why i laughed when the other guys wanted me to play lead. In the end we ended up switching off and taking turns getting shots that we liked. I think that experience here though didnt really matter. We all were amatures, but most of mine came out better. I laughed at the one guy because he kept on asking what setting i was on, so he could dupicate them. He was in full manual and just going crazy with everything. It really didnt work out for him. I kind of felt bad.

Thanks for the idea about the class. Honestly i dont see myself going to them soon. I really dont have the funds, or time, but at least i have an idea of where i can go in the future.

geospatial junkie wrote:

PMB...

I think you definitely gave it a good effort. Matt raised some very good points (some I had already heeded before my first upcoming wedding). Try to get on as a second-shooter for various photographers it will help immensely! Matt's portfolio is definitely something to strive for and you should probably follow his advise.

As for critiques, I always find it interesting who decides to give advise... some have the portfolio's to back it up and others... well...

My portfolio is nothing to brag about yet so I am just trumpeting Matt's sentiments. However, everyone needs to start somewhere and many times photographers don't want anyone else involved so its tough to get a second-shooter gig.

One poster mentioned that you should look at attending the WPPI at some point? I'm curious how that will make someone a better photographer? Maybe attending the seminars there would help, but I can't see it helping that much (even if it did... you better have the cashola to do pay).

I think I learned more about dealing with people and improvisation when things don't go as planned from a second-shooter perspective that I did about positioning and lighting. Most photographers I assisted with were of the photojournalistic style (two were modern and none were traditional). The preparation involved in shooting some of the weddings sometimes appeared to be more work than the wedding's themselves.

What equipment were you shooting with? Did you use off-camera flash, reflectors, etc...?

Best of luck in the future and hopefully you learned something from this!

Yea, i would like to get on as a 2nd photographer. Nothing like first hand experience from a pro. Im also realize that many people have varying opinions, so im just trying to see it from everyone's point of view. I feel that i am learning a lot just talking to many of you.

Like stated earlier my gear was my new Canon 40d and my 28-135 IS lens. I didnt use my built in flash until almost the end. My other photog buddy clued me in on that. An off camera flash is on my to do list

bmoreshooter wrote:

If you look at many of the websites of people critiqueing others work here you will see many of the same mistakes in their work. I recently posted a few pictures on smugmug to help stimulate conversation and become part of this forum.I certainly don't expect to get work from here so I don't intend to spend any effort on posting photos in a portfolio.
I don't think that PBM posted his work just to be told not to do it anymore. I believe that Matt is a respectable photographer with relavent advice but instead of using his whole reply to scold PMB perhaps he could have given advice on how to improve his photos. I could be wrong but i think that is what most of the new shooters are here for.

You hit it. i am willing to take some criticism though. Matt did help with some examples, so that was a nice addition. Thanks again for chiming in. BTW any help is welcomed in the PP department.

geospatial junkie wrote:

Overall Things to Work On:

1. Exposure and white balance are very incosistent. More experience will help you here. Also shoot RAW instead of JPG to allow you a little more flexibility.

2. Fill-flash and the usuage of reflectors. Most of your shots border on the modern and traditional styles of photography. You'll need to master using a flash and/or reflectors properly to get those colours to pop.

3. Posing and positioning for group shots. Also Using lighting to create nice balanced light for group shots.

4. Post-processing techniques. Refine these so that you aren't getting completely unrealistic effects (i.e. the tone mapping). Nowadays brides want the photoshop touchups, but nothing that looks to unrealistic.

5. Developing your eye. As Matt stated, shoot many times as a second-shooter and you'll start to develop your own style. It will come easier to you.

Best of luck!:D

Notes taken. Thank you for taking the time to go through and pointing out what needs work.

I have since started to shoot RAW and use fill flash more. Its coming slowly, but having someone critique it just makes it that much easier to iron things out.

joshhuntnm wrote:

I posted another post about a post. As to the pics. i don't think they are so bad. I am curious. . . what did the bride think?

Most of the problems can be fixed with a little Photoshop love.

Thanks josh for your post. I agree. Both of them knew what they were getting into. The importance that they put on the photos wasn't as much as i had expected them to have. I actually talked to the bride over the phone for several hours until she convinced me to do the shoot. She really didnt care too much about her pics. Knowing that none of us had experience and that she was broke she just wanted to have close friends in on it. To me she seemed more excited that she was finally getting married than getting pro level pics.

When she came to pic up the pics she was excited, but blown away with the 500+ shots. She actually took them home to their family's and all of them liked how they turned out. Like i said i only have shown you guys a few Ive got a lot more

...and yes im weak in the photoshop area. Any quick tips are very welcome.

On a side not this site needs a muli-quote button. It is a must!:whew

sweet caroline · February 20, 2009

Sometimes there are people who truly cannot afford to pay a pro- whether they value photography or not. When I got married, we were scraping up whatever we could. My dress was $200. My mom did the floral arrangements. There was NO money for a photographer. Of course, we were 19 and had a baby. At that point, I guess you could say that we valued our child's needs more than our desire to have professional photos of our wedding. I just want to make the point that not everyone who chooses an inexperienced photographer does it because they don't place a high value on photography. My first few weddings I did as a gifts to the couples, all people on tight budgets who would have otherwise not had anyone to help document the occasion. It was a great learning experience for me, and I truly worked hard to give the couples photos they could be happy with.

I agree that we all need to keep raising the bar. We can never stop working to get better. But we all start somewhere.

Caroline

bmoreshooter · February 20, 2009

Here are a couple samples of corrections.

Just a little brightness and contrast adjustment. Burn background a little and sharpen. Minor adjustments but i'm sure you can see the difference.

bmoreshooter · February 20, 2009

another
A little more difficult.

Created duplicate layer, adjust contrast and brightness for background.
Switch layers and erase image of B&G, adjust b&c for b&g
merge layers and make final brightness and contrast adjustment
Sharpen.

This one is a little more dramatic. I used the background from one of your other shots to switch the backgrounds. Maybe a bit too dramatic but it shows you what you can do.

These were done very quickly to show you that you do have some options. We can do some more if you would like but i'm not sure if we should do them here. If your interested I can email them to you or put them on my sugmug page for you to view. If you want to use them they should be done from the best available files.

geospatial_junkie · February 20, 2009

Some interesting perspectives here...

I don't have that much of a problem if the person doing the photography isn't getting paid... which is the case here. Heck, if I had an opportunity like that I would have taken it as well.

joshhuntnm wrote:

I totally disagree.

I'm confused as to what you disagree with? Matt's statement regarding getting proper training? Matt's statement about getting more experience as a 2nd shooter? Or the fact that Matt was relatively blunt?

geospatial_junkie · February 20, 2009

bmoreshooter wrote:

Here are a couple samples of corrections.

Just a little brightness and contrast adjustment. Burn background a little and sharpen. Minor adjustments but i'm sure you can see the difference.

I like these changes!

The colours pop much more.

bmoreshooter · February 20, 2009

geospatial_junkie wrote:

Some interesting perspectives here...

I don't have that much of a problem if the person doing the photography isn't getting paid... which is the case here. Heck, if I had an opportunity like that I would have taken it as well.

I'm confused as to what you disagree with? Matt's statement regarding getting proper training? Matt's statement about getting more experience as a 2nd shooter? Or the fact that Matt was relatively blunt?

The fact that he said don't ever do that again.

Matthew Saville · February 21, 2009

The fact that he said don't ever do that again.

Yeah... I guess I simply felt that a swift kick in the butt was the only way to drive the point home effectively enough. (And like I said I was counting on my hunch that everybody else would play nice...)

For the record lol, I definitely don't intend to judge someone once and for all. Who am I to say that you won't ever improve?

In fact, now might be a great time to mention Zack Arias' recent video that is sweeping the internet... Zack is a technical master and lighting guru, and in this video he really opens up about the deepest aspects of being an artist in general.

http://www.zarias.com/?p=284

We all sucked at one point. We're all still improving. Some of you ARE going to be world-famous.

We're smart, we can asses a couple's situation. If it really IS either you shooting or nobody at all, then by all means, shoot. And raise your standards every time, be brutal with your self-critique, ...Eventually you will rock AND all the couples along the way will be happy with their photos...

But I fear that it's bigger than just the very, VERY few couples who can't afford a penny. My fear is that many other couples, who COULD otherwise afford SOMETHING, are making a mistake when they don't place enough value on good photography. Or they are simply being wronged by photographers who THINK they are semi-pro, and dive in at $1500 after shooting just a couple weddings with nothing but attaboys from other beginners.

Thankfully it looks like that crowd of opportunistic craigslist photographers is not HERE. So do your part, and look out for the best interest of the couple. If you know they could afford something professional and are just holding out for a free lunch, lay down the law. They'll thank you in 20 years!

:-)

=Matt=

Candid Arts · February 21, 2009

So after reading this thread and seeing the photos and the subsequent posts, I began to question my own photos. I posted a thread here about it with some links to my wedding photos asking for critique. Anything would be appreciated. Thanks.

As for this thread I agree with some of what has been said, but not all. I've gotten a couple good ideas/pointers for PP and posing and what to pay attention to as well. Very useful information by everyone. Thanks.

PackingMyBags · February 22, 2009

Bmoreshooter...thanks for PS'ing my photos and showing the steps. What do you mean by "burn the background though? I really like how that turned out. Also did you use the erase method on the second one, or did you cut/paste? Ive tried cutting, and lassoing, but it seems to look like crap when i do it.

Matt...thanks again for being a smart ass and uploading that video. Hopefully we all will become excellent photographers. I admit that portraits are my weakness, but I always find a way to step back and to be honest with myself about my work. If its great then im satisfied, but if its not then im back at it again. I dont settle for mediocre. Also a little encouragement from my peers goes a long way as well. BTW you didnt tell me what lenses you run. Care to share??? Also how do you get that nice glow around your bride? Im guessing its PP related.

Thanks to all for helping my eye see what it normally couldn't. You can only grow so fast from your own critique.

BTW. I have a second couple of friends trying to get me to shoot their wedding soon.

Shima · February 22, 2009

PackingMyBags wrote:

Bmoreshooter...thanks for PS'ing my photos and showing the steps. What do you mean by "burn the background though? I really like how that turned out. Also did you use the erase method on the second one, or did you cut/paste? Ive tried cutting, and lassoing, but it seems to look like crap when i do it.

Matt...thanks again for being a smart ass and uploading that video. Hopefully we all will become excellent photographers. I admit that portraits are my weakness, but I always find a way to step back and to be honest with myself about my work. If its great then im satisfied, but if its not then im back at it again. I dont settle for mediocre. Also a little encouragement from my peers goes a long way as well. BTW you didnt tell me what lenses you run. Care to share??? Also how do you get that nice glow around your bride? Im guessing its PP related.

Thanks to all for helping my eye see what it normally couldn't. You can only grow so fast from your own critique.

BTW. I have a second couple of friends trying to get me to shoot their wedding soon.

Burning and dodging are your friend. Here's a good tutorial explaining how it works: http://www.dpchallenge.com/tutorial.php?TUTORIAL_ID=30

cj99si · February 22, 2009

bmoreshooter wrote:

A little more difficult.

Created duplicate layer, adjust contrast and brightness for background.
Switch layers and erase image of B&G, adjust b&c for b&g
merge layers and make final brightness and contrast adjustment
Sharpen.

This one is a little more dramatic. I used the background from one of your other shots to switch the backgrounds. Maybe a bit too dramatic but it shows you what you can do.

These were done very quickly to show you that you do have some options. We can do some more if you would like but i'm not sure if we should do them here. If your interested I can email them to you or put them on my sugmug page for you to view. If you want to use them they should be done from the best available files.

No offence...... I understand its tough to do what you did, but this looks way worse. Why even bother to include the original background at all? the original looks great.

Matthew Saville · February 23, 2009

PackingMyBags wrote:

BTW you didnt tell me what lenses you run. Care to share??? Also how do you get that nice glow around your bride? Im guessing its PP related.

Thanks to all for helping my eye see what it normally couldn't. You can only grow so fast from your own critique.

BTW. I have a second couple of friends trying to get me to shoot their wedding soon.

Currently I'm just running a Nikon 17-55 and Sigma 50-150. I rent f/1.4 or other specialty glass as I see fit.

...Like I said about the friends inquiring- put some effort into being firm, but if they just have $0 and that's the bottom line then by all means, go for it and good luck! PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!

=Matt=

bmoreshooter · February 23, 2009

cj99si wrote:

No offence...... I understand its tough to do what you did, but this looks way worse. Why even bother to include the original background at all? the original looks great.

No offense taken. We all have our own ideas as to what things should look like. These are suggestions to brighten up images that are somewhat dull. The photographer and customer may be quite happy with the originals however from his last post to me I seemed to have piqued his intrest. My post was designed to show some possible PP changes that are worth exploring. As to why include the background, it is apparent that that was meant to be part of the picture. I did not say that this was the final word on what PMB's photos should look like, that after all is his choice. I'm sure that he would be happy to explore any suggestions from you or anyone else here that could possibly be of help.

My first wedding shoot...oh my.

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