The packages feedback thread

Baldy · February 6, 2009

Hey everyone,

You gave us really great feedback on coupons, which we really appreciate. Lee is coding away on them and we have the user interface and feature set mostly worked out (but lots of code and testing to go).

We have a different guy working on packages and we could use the same feedback. If you're local to Mountain View, why not stop by and give us a brain dump? We'll buy your lunch.

If not, we'd love to hear from you at baldy at smugmug dot com, or here.

Thanks!
Chris

SloJoe · February 6, 2009

Baldy wrote:

Hey everyone,

You gave us really great feedback on coupons, which we really appreciate. Lee is coding away on them and we have the user interface and feature set mostly worked out (but lots of code and testing to go).

We have a different guy working on packages and we could use the same feedback. If you're local to Mountain View, why not stop by and give us a brain dump? We'll buy your lunch.

If not, we'd love to hear from you at baldy at smugmug dot com, or here.

Thanks!
Chris

I am local, and would love to help out any way I can (packages or otherwise).

Andy · February 9, 2009

uh, bump?

Kalrog · February 9, 2009

I'm having a problem coming up with what might be "non-obvious" for a package feature set. But I'll get the ball rolling.

Must:
1 - be able to select products (not just prints) to be included in a package.
2 - be able to price all as one item
3 - be able to set it so that coupons work or don't work with the package (selectable by SMer)

Should:
1 - allow for swapping in packages (e.g. allow the end customer to swap 2 5x7s in place of an 8x10)

brjphoto · February 9, 2009

Andy wrote:

uh, bump?

Yeah... umm...
I've wanted packages for some time but I'm just not sure how to implement them. Let me post a little stream of consciousness here while I think about this...

The whole point of packages is to force the customer to buy more photos. On occasion this is the only way to make the "event" economically viable for the photographer. If everyone only bought a single 4x6 the photographer runs a risk of losing money.

So... how do we implement?

I guess one of the first decisions is as follows. Do packages require the selection of a single pose? Or do we allow multiple poses per package?

For example... package "A" consists of 1-8x10 and 2-5x7s. Do we need all three prints to be the same photo? Or can we give the customer the option of selecting 3 different poses for the 3 different pictures. To be honest, I would like to have the option to do it both ways. (Although the first option is probably more important)

Next issue...
One feature that is important is that once a customer has added a package to thier cart, they should have the option to add additional poses/sizes from the ala carte menu. But, the ala carte menu should not be an option unless the customer has first added the package to the cart.

Obviously, we should be able to create our own custom packages and give them custom names and prices. This is something we might do in the custom pro menus. The packages would then show up in the shopping cart with a description that shows what is included in the package.

Now that I think about it... package creation (control, editing and deletion) could be done in a custom menu, and pricing could be done in the normal pricing menu. Just thinking about off the top of my head, I can't imagine that the code would be that difficult, as long as you created the packages using a form that was tied in to the existing products that are offered by the print labs.

Make sense so far? Now get started!

brjphoto · February 9, 2009

Kalrog wrote:

Should:
1 - allow for swapping in packages (e.g. allow the end customer to swap 2 5x7s in place of an 8x10)

That's an interesting idea. I'm worried that it would be confusing for my customers and it would really screw with pricing. If I were in that situation, I would just offer separate packages. For example...

Package 1:
1 - 8x10
2 - 4x6

Package 2:
2 - 5x7
2 - 4x6

And I would price each package accordingly. Just my 2 cents.

Glory2Jesus4Photography · February 9, 2009

Baldy wrote:

Hey everyone,

You gave us really great feedback on coupons, which we really appreciate. Lee is coding away on them and we have the user interface and feature set mostly worked out (but lots of code and testing to go).

We have a different guy working on packages and we could use the same feedback. If you're local to Mountain View, why not stop by and give us a brain dump? We'll buy your lunch.

If not, we'd love to hear from you at baldy at smugmug dot com, or here.

Thanks!
Chris

I sent you an email

catspaw · February 17, 2009

As I consider out the nitty gritty aspects of my business plan, the obvious conclusion is to get folks to buy MORE photos.

Depending on how packages are implimented, this could be a great tool. Alas, I do events where multiple prints of the same photo are NOT really needed (which is what I think of as a 'package'). However, the ability to sell a 'package' of say:

8 different images:
one 8x10
two 5x7
five 4x6

And then price it in a way that is less than the individual pictures themselves, but that encourages the buyer to buy MORE.

I know I got (suckered) into this with a local photog (does sporting events, alas fails badly at horse show photos) who offered a good rate on digital images on CD but only if you got 6 of them on one CD. So instead of buying prints of 2 different images (which I wanted) or perhaps 4 digital images, I found myself forcing myself to pick 6 just to get the better CD rate, even if it cost more than 2 prints to start with. I was getting 'more', right? so therefore it was worth it.

I know SM isn't into the selling-a-CD habit, but if packages could ALSO include digital downloads, that'd be quite the awesome package.

catspaw · February 17, 2009

okay, the mind is still churning on this one so I'll continue.

I think the biggest block to SUCCESSFUL packages will be the SM users ourselves. Not everyone can determine the best business savvy package that will attract customers.

Granted, this could be taken OUT of our hands and have SM create pre-made packages that we can select from. However, even then the pricing is up to the SM user, which means that they may or may not be a successful tool.

In this regards, there is a bit of a sink or swim aspect to how packages could be implimented and used within different SM accounts. Do we need an extensive tutorial to help out those who are more artistically oriented and aren't business geeks? (I'm a business geek, I admit this).

What point does SM just provide us with the tools to sink/swim/fly/float and then leave the logical (or illogical) implimentation up to the user? Obviously SM isn't into business education (nor accounting or tax advice or...).

Yet at the same time, SM benefits when their users sell more, and if packages allow this to happen ... then perhaps some degree of support or at least examples (if not a full tutorial) should be provided as well.

Things to consider. Too bad I'm not in the bay area until May else I'd make this a bit of a longer in person discussion. Thanks!

johng · February 17, 2009

OK,
Here's my thoughts. Forgetting the interface to implement what I would like to be able to do is define a "package" as containing a certan subset of products. The ability to set up different "packages". The user selects a package and is presented with the products in the package. For each product the customer must select a photo to use for that 'product' - and probably a quick way to apply the same image to multiple 'products' in the package.

So. On my site I define something called "package A". I then basically add product and quantity: So 1 x 8x10, 2x 5x7, 1 x 8 wallet. Package price = $25. When the user is on my site they have an option to "buy Package". They are given screen with the 3 products above. For each of the products they click on a 'select image' button and are presented the gallery - maybe like the 'buy multiple photos' page. The difficult thing is being able to go to a different gallery and still 'remember' you're in photo selection mode.
I would suggest the package create capability also allow for the ability to add line items of the same type (which is how to give the flexibility to allow the customer to select different images for same product or force them to use the same image.
So, for instance - in the above package I would be forcing the customer to take the same image for both 5x7 prints. Alternatively I could define two line items in the package:
1 x 5x7
1 x 5x7

If the user could also selecta 'finish' for all photo products (i.e. single selection of matte, lustre, gloss, etc) that applies to the whole package.

If it's easier, I could accept a limit of say 5 packages groups. But unlimited would be better.

Allen42 · February 18, 2009

Ditto
Ditto this.

I need this yesterday, as I have two sets of team photos coming up from schools that are used to do doing it the "Lifetouch Way", and I'd like to have parents have a similar experiences. I'm even considering finding a host that supports this due to the size of the opportunity here. Please find a way to get this implemented asap!

-Allen

johng wrote:

OK,
Here's my thoughts. Forgetting the interface to implement what I would like to be able to do is define a "package" as containing a certan subset of products. The ability to set up different "packages". The user selects a package and is presented with the products in the package. For each product the customer must select a photo to use for that 'product' - and probably a quick way to apply the same image to multiple 'products' in the package.

So. On my site I define something called "package A". I then basically add product and quantity: So 1 x 8x10, 2x 5x7, 1 x 8 wallet. Package price = $25. When the user is on my site they have an option to "buy Package". They are given screen with the 3 products above. For each of the products they click on a 'select image' button and are presented the gallery - maybe like the 'buy multiple photos' page. The difficult thing is being able to go to a different gallery and still 'remember' you're in photo selection mode.
I would suggest the package create capability also allow for the ability to add line items of the same type (which is how to give the flexibility to allow the customer to select different images for same product or force them to use the same image.
So, for instance - in the above package I would be forcing the customer to take the same image for both 5x7 prints. Alternatively I could define two line items in the package:
1 x 5x7
1 x 5x7

If the user could also selecta 'finish' for all photo products (i.e. single selection of matte, lustre, gloss, etc) that applies to the whole package.

If it's easier, I could accept a limit of say 5 packages groups. But unlimited would be better.

Allen42 · February 18, 2009

Swapping not needed
Don't like the idea of swapping... then it's not the package I wanted to sell, and over-complicates the model.

-Allen

Kalrog wrote:

I'm having a problem coming up with what might be "non-obvious" for a package feature set. But I'll get the ball rolling.

Must:
1 - be able to select products (not just prints) to be included in a package.
2 - be able to price all as one item
3 - be able to set it so that coupons work or don't work with the package (selectable by SMer)

Should:
1 - allow for swapping in packages (e.g. allow the end customer to swap 2 5x7s in place of an 8x10)

ddennisphotography · February 19, 2009

Funny a parent was just asking about packages last night.

I would like to see a separate menu that I can define various packages. Similar to the Quick Settings option maybe.

From that menu I can give the package a name and determine the image sizes, image quantity and al-a-cart sizes that they can add on top of the package. Then for pricing maybe add another tab to the pricing page for the packages. Set it up in a way that like Portfolio Prices you have a Portfolio price for your packages and then can set Individual Gallery prices as well. This way packages could be set across your portfolio and you could set special prices for certain events.

I don't like the idea of allowing the customer to swap items in the package. I would set the package up as I want it and don't want it to be changed. I also don't think that multiple images should be allowed for wallets, actually I don't even know if that is possible. I do like the idea of giving the customer the option of using different images within the package. So lets say I have package A = 3 4x6 2 5x7. The customer chooses the package and at that point maybe they are taken to a screen were there are blank boxes to represent the images in the package ( lets call it the Package Selection Screen). From this screen maybe have some way that they select one of the image boxes and then find the image that they want. Or maybe... This just came to me. The customer adds images to their cart and then selects the package they want. Then they go to the Package Selection Screen and they choose from the images in their cart and assign them to the image size they want in the package. I might also like to see a check boxs or radio buttons to give them the option of only having one image for the package. And or an option to enable having the same image for the 5x7's and then choosing different images for the 4x6's and vis ver sa. This option could be enabled or disable in the package setup so photographers can choose what they want to allow and not allow.

This is my $.02 for what is worth. But I know I would love to be able to find a way to offer packages that I setup once and that customers could just choose like they are choosing an image size.

photogmomma · February 19, 2009

This is probably a combo of packages and product. I would LOVE to be able to offer a DVD as part of a package. Currently, I offer two types of DVDs - low res (1mp) and full res. 99% of my clients purchase the low res, printable to 5x7, and the purchase enlargements through me. I burn the DVD and mail it to them....

To be able to include either a self fulfillment option or a DVD option would be huge!

Oh! And they MUST be of different images (or the same) or it will not help me at all....

jmarkworth1 · February 19, 2009

The typical workflow... packages and coupons
For event photography, an area where packages are very popular, the typical workflow begins with a registration form (picking a minimum package), pre-payment (again for the minimum package), then pictures are taken (team photo, individual photos), the pictures are uploaded, emails are sent to those that registered and pre-paid for a package, users log in, view the pre-paid package selection, make additional selections, check out, proofs are replaced with high-res (if that is necessary), producs are printed, shipped (in pro account labeled packaging), thank you note is emailed with a 25% off coupon good for 30 days for grandma and grandpa to use, the customer is happy, and the photographer is growing their business.

I think that it would be nice to have a seperate package definition applet as a tab on the pro account. This package applet should allow the selection of any of the bay photo products like tickets, buttons, magnets, magazine covers, etc.... Bay photo themes should be part of the package definition so that black and orange teams don't get the choice to order photos with a lime green boarder.

I think there should be two check boxes (maybe more) on each package that simply state "allow like for like unit replacement" and "allow for multi-image selection".

I am ok with images coming from only one gallery, but I can see the benefit of team photos in one gallery and individuals in another.

I suggest that there are differences between a package definition and the instance of a live package offering.

When an instance is instantiated, could it be possible to "link" that package with one or more galleries so that they are "locked" together. This may be a way at the database level to offer and restrict the selection of photos from two or more "joined" galleries.

Packages should be made up of regular retail products and should reference them in a one package to many products arrangement. From a marketing point of view, I think it would be neat to see two prices on checkout. The sum total of the normal retail pricing, the package price and a "you saved" amount to encourage package sales (only displayed if the result of retail minus package price is not zero or less).

Coupons should be tied to packages - this would help with the prepayment.

If direct, online, customer registration cannot take place in version 1.0, than at least the pro user could collect the "checks" from the event, deposit them in the bank, and the log into the SmugMug Coupon applet and pay for pre-paid coupons in the amounts and send to the customers as appropriate.

Note that coupons should always be mailed to two email addresses - the actual recipient and the pro users email account (unless you intend to store backups). Money is money and people get funny about money even if they are the ones that "acidentally" deleted the email with the pdf coupon attached.

The ultimate event photograhpers site would allowthe photographer to take 2 - 3 3G connected laptops to an event, let parents, coaches, teams register on-line at their Smug site, choose their packages, enter their email, which is enterered twice and verified, their credit card number, and a coupon number is displayed on the screeen, emailed to the customer's email and to the photographer, as above and, a confirmation email is sent to a second email (short summary only) where it can be part of the workflow for the second photographer shooting individuals.

I guess that is my wish list.

jmarkworth1 · February 19, 2009

Now we need an EVENT thread
That would be the ultimate, to be able to create and publish an event where only registered users (or the general public) could pre-register for an event, leading to packages, leading to coupons, and leading to a closed loop workflow.

bendruckerphoto · February 21, 2009

It would be tough to think of a good way to do this, but I'd also like to be able to sell a package that includes a group of different photos, mainly with 4x6s. It pains me to sell a couple of 4x6 shots at $0.75 apiece to someone for $5 total. On the other hand, I don't want to charge $4 for a 4x6, because if someone wants to make an album with 100 4x6s in it, it costs a fortune. What I'd love to be able to do is to allow a customer to purchase individual 4x6s for $4, but also: 20 for $25, 50 for $40, 100 for $65, etc. Even better would be if the customer could choose 2 8x10s, 4 5x7s, and 20 4x6s for, say, $85 or something.

Ann McRae · February 21, 2009

Wow, thanks for this. I have two big events coming up, and this would be really great! My previous event experience has been limited to shooting/uploading and praying that the emails I sent would work - and they don't. Having prepaying customers is a big key I believe, and this sounds like a great solution.

ann

jmarkworth1 wrote:

For event photography, an area where packages are very popular, the typical workflow begins with a registration form (picking a minimum package), pre-payment (again for the minimum package), then pictures are taken (team photo, individual photos), the pictures are uploaded, emails are sent to those that registered and pre-paid for a package, users log in, view the pre-paid package selection, make additional selections, check out, proofs are replaced with high-res (if that is necessary), producs are printed, shipped (in pro account labeled packaging), thank you note is emailed with a 25% off coupon good for 30 days for grandma and grandpa to use, the customer is happy, and the photographer is growing their business.

I think that it would be nice to have a seperate package definition applet as a tab on the pro account. This package applet should allow the selection of any of the bay photo products like tickets, buttons, magnets, magazine covers, etc.... Bay photo themes should be part of the package definition so that black and orange teams don't get the choice to order photos with a lime green boarder.

I think there should be two check boxes (maybe more) on each package that simply state "allow like for like unit replacement" and "allow for multi-image selection".

I am ok with images coming from only one gallery, but I can see the benefit of team photos in one gallery and individuals in another.

I suggest that there are differences between a package definition and the instance of a live package offering.

When an instance is instantiated, could it be possible to "link" that package with one or more galleries so that they are "locked" together. This may be a way at the database level to offer and restrict the selection of photos from two or more "joined" galleries.

Packages should be made up of regular retail products and should reference them in a one package to many products arrangement. From a marketing point of view, I think it would be neat to see two prices on checkout. The sum total of the normal retail pricing, the package price and a "you saved" amount to encourage package sales (only displayed if the result of retail minus package price is not zero or less).

Coupons should be tied to packages - this would help with the prepayment.

If direct, online, customer registration cannot take place in version 1.0, than at least the pro user could collect the "checks" from the event, deposit them in the bank, and the log into the SmugMug Coupon applet and pay for pre-paid coupons in the amounts and send to the customers as appropriate.

Note that coupons should always be mailed to two email addresses - the actual recipient and the pro users email account (unless you intend to store backups). Money is money and people get funny about money even if they are the ones that "acidentally" deleted the email with the pdf coupon attached.

The ultimate event photograhpers site would allowthe photographer to take 2 - 3 3G connected laptops to an event, let parents, coaches, teams register on-line at their Smug site, choose their packages, enter their email, which is enterered twice and verified, their credit card number, and a coupon number is displayed on the screeen, emailed to the customer's email and to the photographer, as above and, a confirmation email is sent to a second email (short summary only) where it can be part of the workflow for the second photographer shooting individuals.

I guess that is my wish list.

JETA · February 23, 2009

This summer I'll be selling about 400 portrait packages and have to have a way to order packages to keep my biz at smugmug.

I don't need my customers to buy packages. I need to be able to set them up for myself. Per gallery there will be one group shot and individuals. All packages would have a group shot and an individual portrait in various sizes.

I want to be able to go into the gallery, click the individual portrait and then pick the portrait package they order. Even if I have to add the group shot separately I wouldn't mind.

Last year I just offered one portrait package and that works, but it limits myself and sales.

Another thing that was difficult last year is the backprinting didn't have the portrait number on it (I use the name of the person in the portrait). It made it really hard to break down my portrait packages when I had numersous pics come at one time all mixed up. I didn't understand why the image number (words in my case) wasn't on back. Believe me. You shoot 400 football players they all start to look alike. I wish there was more rhyme and reason to how the photos are packaged by smugmug or have the complete image number in backprinting.

Thank you for listening to my ramblings!

mercphoto · February 23, 2009

When I was with Exposure Manager a few years back they had a few options that people seem to be wanting here. One was packages, which let the photographer sell several different products bundled into one purchase. The same image was used for all products in the package. I had pretty good success with a package that bundled a 4x6 and 8x10 print, and with a 4x6 print bundled with a digital file. Again, the package was from a single file.

Another item they had were discounts. I forget the entire details because its been two years, but if memory serves there were a few ways to do the discount. For example, spend a certain dollar amount and get a percentage off. That percentage could either be over the entire order, or only on the amount over the minimum purchase that triggered the discount. Any number of images, any selection of products, etc. Or, buy a particular product (maybe some new product you're trying to push) and they get a discount on more purchases (of the same or different images).

I'm seeing some people here that seem to want a mix of the single-image package with the multi-image discount. Not sure how well that would work. I just see confusion in terms of the user interace required to pull that off. And, I think the discount concept would actually fill that role anyway.

I'd say SM should make the package from a single image. And consider the discount concept separately.

And, they had pre-purchased coupons. The customer gives you $X and they get a coupon code. They then use that to buy products. Just like a gift card from iTunes or Target. So, you do an event and you decide to pre-sell to parents and participants. This way you know who to focus on. You already have their money, and they can only spend it on you.

catspaw · February 25, 2009

baseballboy828 wrote:

It would be tough to think of a good way to do this, but I'd also like to be able to sell a package that includes a group of different photos, mainly with 4x6s. It pains me to sell a couple of 4x6 shots at $0.75 apiece to someone for $5 total. On the other hand, I don't want to charge $4 for a 4x6, because if someone wants to make an album with 100 4x6s in it, it costs a fortune. What I'd love to be able to do is to allow a customer to purchase individual 4x6s for $4, but also: 20 for $25, 50 for $40, 100 for $65, etc. Even better would be if the customer could choose 2 8x10s, 4 5x7s, and 20 4x6s for, say, $85 or something.

you? are underpricing and devaluating your product.

imnsho.

Sam · February 25, 2009

baseball wrote:

It would be tough to think of a good way to do this, but I'd also like to be able to sell a package that includes a group of different photos, mainly with XS. It pains me to sell a couple of X shots at $0.75 apiece to someone for $5 total. On the other hand, I don't want to charge $4 for a X, because if someone wants to make an album with 100 XS in it, it costs a fortune. What I'd love to be able to do is to allow a customer to purchase individual XS for $4, but also: 20 for $25, 50 for $40, 100 for $65, etc. Even better would be if the customer could choose 2 XS, 4 XS, and 20 XS for, say, $85 or something.

Ben,

Help me out here. You say it pains you to sell 4X6 for $0.75, and you don't want to sell a 4X6 for $4.00 each. Yet when I visited your site you have the 4X6 priced at $5.00?

Sam

Montec · February 26, 2009

About 90% of my sales is packages. I expensed out over $5000 in processing fees in 2008 so if I can make this SM model work I know it will save me money so I am very interested in this.

My needs are much simpler than what I have read in this thread. My customers will not be doing any of the ordering. I need a way to create my own packages that I print on a proof sheet/money envelope/order form that I have already got back from parents with orders & payments. I will select the photo (only one per package) and apply the package number to it. Done.

What I also need is each package ordered to be in it's own envelope, preferably with a window. I often shoot 300 - 500 heads in one shoot so you can see the problem if they are not separated. The ability to have the backprinting match the image name would be a bonus.

With the lab I use now I send along an data file that they use to sort the images and package them sorted by classroom or division. All names are printed on the envelopes. However, this service is very expensive. I would gladly do some of this sorting myself for the print prices SM offers.

mercphoto · February 26, 2009

baseballboy828 wrote:

It would be tough to think of a good way to do this, but I'd also like to be able to sell a package that includes a group of different photos, mainly with 4x6s. It pains me to sell a couple of 4x6 shots at $0.75 apiece to someone for $5 total. On the other hand, I don't want to charge $4 for a 4x6, because if someone wants to make an album with 100 4x6s in it, it costs a fortune. What I'd love to be able to do is to allow a customer to purchase individual 4x6s for $4, but also: 20 for $25, 50 for $40, 100 for $65, etc. Even better would be if the customer could choose 2 8x10s, 4 5x7s, and 20 4x6s for, say, $85 or something.

Well, then don't sell 4x6's for seventy-five cents a piece.

Have you considered a look at Exposure Manager instead? Seriously, for event shooters they offer a lot of stuff that probably fits your needs much better. You can already do volume discounts, for example (if they buy more, their price goes down, which is what you are wanting). And packages. And self-fulfill. And coupons. And......

Ann McRae · February 26, 2009

Hi Bill

I just looked at Exposure Managers information pages and fee structure.

The difference (besides EM being more spendy) seems to be packages and coupons, which is what Baldy wants us to give feedback on here. I see that you have given an overview comparison earlier, but can you be specific about how you made use of packages for your customers?

I have a couple big events, and I know I need coupons, and I am pretty sure I would rather presell packages then have to do lots of on site printing.

However, not really having experience with what works, I'd love to hear from someone that does (you!) (btw, how is the 10-22? the 17 - 40 is wonderful!)

ann

mercphoto wrote:

Well, then don't sell 4x6's for seventy-five cents a piece. Have you considered a look at Exposure Manager instead? Seriously, for event shooters they offer a lot of stuff that probably fits your needs much better. You can already do volume discounts, for example (if they buy more, their price goes down, which is what you are wanting). And packages. And self-fulfill. And coupons. And......

mercphoto · February 26, 2009

Ann McRae wrote:

Hi Bill

I just looked at Exposure Managers information pages and fee structure.

The difference (besides EM being more spendy) seems to be packages and coupons, which is what Baldy wants us to give feedback on here. I see that you have given an overview comparison earlier, but can you be specific about how you made use of packages for your customers?

I have a couple big events, and I know I need coupons, and I am pretty sure I would rather presell packages then have to do lots of on site printing.

However, not really having experience with what works, I'd love to hear from someone that does (you!) (btw, how is the 10-22? the 17 - 40 is wonderful!)

ann

Bear in mind that last time I did any serious event photography was in 2006, and that was with Exposure Manager. But even way back then EM had all these features. They worked well for me, and I know if I had attacked the biz with the gusto I should have they would have worked out better.

I offered two packages: a 4x6 and 8x10 bundle, and a 4x6 and digital file bundle. Both were popular. I did a few "sales" that had time limits and I was happy with them. Sometimes it was a volume discount -- buy a certain dollar amount, and you get a 33% discount on all other purchases over that amount. Sometimes it was a straight sale -- 25% off everything. Usually for a one-week time-period after the event to spur sales. I never got around to selling coupons myself.

They also have the ability to self-fulfill any product (for example, print your own 4x6's if you wish), and that gave the ability to define products for sale of your own making. For example, the EM shopping cart does not have a CD option. But I made one, and marked it as self-fulfill, giving entrants the ability to purchase an event CD direct from the shopping cart. That worked well, too. I'd burn and mail the CD myself, EM took the money and sent me the profit.

My memory is now jogged by a feature I forgot about and probably have some details wrong, but they had the ability to have a product defined as needing multiple images, and letting the customer pick which particular images. So if you wanted to sell a three-picture collage the shopping cart would explicitly ask them to select the three images they wanted. Nice.

I'm not trying to downplay SM, its very good for what they do. But IMHO, when it comes to event photographers, and the features they are asking for here, EM has been doing this stuff for at least 3-4 years now.

Exposure Manager is very narrowly focused in what they do, compared to SM. That makes EM great for that type of thing, and SM great for nearly everything else.

mercphoto · February 26, 2009

Ann McRae wrote:

(btw, how is the 10-22? the 17 - 40 is wonderful!)

It works very well for my needs! I'm also quite glad it took the same filters as the 17-40 did, as that saved a chunk of change. What I really need to do is kick myself into gear and heavily promote myself for that type of photography and see what pops up.

Art Scott · February 26, 2009

Back in the film days, packages were sold as units......some of the processors I used had a unit identified as a 16x20.....but most identified a unit as an 8x10, 2-5x7, 4-4x5/3.5x5 or 8-wallets..........
reading along this thread and I may have missed it but the first thing to get out of the way is what is a unit going to be.......then those that want to mix pictures and do so by mixing units......instead of trying to develope 10-50 different actual packages.......do it by units and give discounts for each unit over 2.....and make it very much woth while ........and also define larger prints as being x amount of units....a 16x20 is 4 units and so on........

That is part of what partnering is about......the processor immediatly has access to 1000's maybe millions of potential PRO customers and those customers are given very good deep discounts for being in the program thru SM.........

johng · February 26, 2009

Art,

Correct me if I'm wrong but the major driver of that model is the stock sheet being developed - i.e. what combos of photos can I stick on this same size sheet of photo paper. If the print process isn't going to change to accomodate this concept (and bring along with it a reduction in cost to the Pro) I'm not sure why force the customer into the same model. I would also suggest that even with that model, customers were often forced to a minimum number of units they had to buy - i.e. they essentially bought a package that icluded 3-5 sheets. Allowing them to buy a single unit - say of 2 5x7s doesn't really buy me anything. I want them to have to buy a package essentially containing more units. And, given the fact the print process won't be placing different photos on the same 'sheet' I don't want to force that arbitrary constraint.

bendruckerphoto · February 26, 2009

Sam wrote:

Ben,

Help me out here. You say it pains you to sell 4X6 for $0.75, and you don't want to sell a 4X6 for $4.00 each. Yet when I visited your site you have the 4X6 priced at $5.00?

Sam

I leave my portfolio price high. For galleries of events and things like that, I bring it down on a per-gallery basis.

jswoolf01 · February 26, 2009

Glad to see Smugmug is working on this feature. Thanks, guys. It's the one feature I've really wanted to offer my customers, that you didn't have yet. I see that previous posts have already covered most of what I would say; I just want to add my voice, as it were.

I figure the purpose of package deals is to gently convince

a customer to buy more. Nothing high-pressure, especially not in this economy. So here's what I want from a package function:

1) I can define the packages I want to offer using any or all available merchandise, from something simple like a pair of 5x7s at a package discount to a complex "memorial pack" that includes (for example) an 8x10, a couple of 5x7s, a mug, and a mousepad.

2) Any packages I've defined appear on a separate tab next to the Prints, Downloads, and Merchandise tabs, so the user can go straight to them if that's what they want.

3) Ideally, I'd like it if a user could go either way on the photos/package selection sequence -- ie, pick photos and assemble a package from them, or pick a package and then go select the photos to go in it. However, I recognize offering both is a lot harder than offering just one of these. If I have to settle for just one, then my customers will probably be happier selecting their pictures first and then picking a package.

4) If the user is selecting individual pictures and just happens to select a combination of products that fits one of my predefined packages, then the site should tell them so before they go to pay, and give them the option to convert to the package deal.

As an example of this, suppose a customer selects 1 8x10 and 4 5x7s. One of my packages is "1 8x10 and 2 5x7s." So when the customer goes to check out, the system brings up a dialog box that says "Excuse me, did you know that you can convert part of this order into a Package Deal for a savings of ____? Would you like to do this Y/N?" I kinda doubt they'll answer 'no.' Presto, happy customer, and happy customer = repeat customer.

5) Some kind of package "digital purchase" deal that allows a customer to select a bunch of pictures and get the digital versions (low res or hi res, their choice) burned onto a CD or DVD. On this item I'd like to be able to set a bulk discount, such that the more photos you order, the more you save per photo.

That's all that I can think of right now. If anything else occurs to me, I'll be back.

-- Jon Woolf

The packages feedback thread

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