Discussion: The Whipping Post (originally Bad Performance)

[polosoftphoto]

We as a group have really bad performance. Why is it that when someone puts something on the whipping post they only get a couple of replies. I for awhile was posting photos as well as leaving feed back for others, but I stopped because I got tired of only a couple of replies and very little conversation about peoples work. I steered a buddy to the forum and he stated that there is no conversation and it's all business. Why not relax and have some fun? What do we need to do to get things a little more exciting and to HEAR from you?

[cmason]

well there are 26 other areas on this Forum, with multiple threads each, so it is hard to respond to everything.

But a big part of the issue is really this:

In da house: 665 (102 members and 563 lurkers)

At least you have stepped up and posted 14 times, what are the other 563 folks out there doing? I think this should be pointed not at those of us that try to contribute, but the rest that don't bother...

Un-lurk, you lurkers you!

[Cato]

I think there's number of factors involved...

1. Size and organization. DGrin is not a huge forum, and it is organized by genre, rather than by gear. I happen to like this kind of organization, because gear is secondary to the photographer. However, in other forums, all the Canon users commented on Canon posts, Nikonians on Nikons, etc. It was almost an automatic audience, because folks those folks are more interested in what lens you used than how good of a photo you posted. Also, because this is not (yet) a huge forum, cliques are very much in evidence. In some sections, I see "popular" members get a lot more comments than more unfamiliar members. That's just general human nature, and as DGrin grows, it will become less evident.

2. Frankly, it's simply easier to say "nice shot", than to provide analysis. I've seen - and been part of - situations where a person posts a photo, you try to reply with somethign constructive, and the original poster becomes upset. I once received a nasty email from a poster when I left him a comment congratulating him on using high ISO to freeze subject movement. This dude happened to make a habit of always shooting ISO 100/200, and came up with lots of blurry bird photos. Several times I had remarked to boost the ISO, noise be damned. When he finally did, the shot came out nice and crisp, but rather noisy (ISO 1600 used, IIRC). I posted how I appreciated the nicely frozen image, the noise detracted very little from the photo. Dude shot me a nastygram, saying he wasn't interested in being a pro, he shot just for fun (he had about $3k worth of bodies and lenses), blah, blah... In fact, I've seen on numerous occasions where someone has suggested a photo improvement, and gets shot down by the OP or another poster.

3. Personally, I feel that when you post a photo, everyone should feel comfortable critiquing it, both good and bad. It doesn't have to be complicated, it could be a suggestion to increase exposure a bit, or something like that. I think there is such a worry - even if its merely a background percolation - that possibly negative feedback can instigate hostilities.

4. Finally, I think there's just a bunch of people who simply enjoy looking at photos. Enjoy the view for a few seconds, maybe get an idea on processing or shooting angle or soemthing, and then move on.

Anyway, there's my $.03 worth...

[Dave Clee]

Not sure whats going on in the WP, but when I first joined DGRIN the WP seemed to be alot more "brutally honest". Almost seems like the replies and critiques have been scaled back b/c of the way a few people have responded to critiques of their photos.
Personally I liked it the way it was back then. You post up some of your work then be prepared to get whipped, if it deserves it..Whip away...

Its almost like the WP has transformed into a kindler gentler place...

Cheers

Dave

[slpollett]

I'm one of those who usually doesn't respond especially on the whipping post items. I am here trying to learn myself, so I'm certainly not qualified to give someone a technical analysis of any photo. I can only say if I like it or not and just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's not a good photograph--it's maybe just not my taste. I think most people who want honest feedback don't just want to hear "nice shot" 50 times and I feel (right now anyway) that is about all I can give. Also, there are so many photos posted, it is impossible for me to even view them all much less comment on them.

I remember reading some of those 'brutally honest' critiques and some of them were truly brutal. I think it was the tone of some of the messages more so than the messages themselves that bothered some people. I desire honest constructive criticism and there is definitely a way to give it without offending anyone. The harshness of some of the commentary may have run some people off from that section. I know I have no intention of ever posting a picture there.

Sherry

[timk519]

Originally Posted by polosoftphoto

We as a group have really bad performance. Why is it that when someone puts something on the whipping post they only get a couple of replies. I for awhile was posting photos as well as leaving feed back for others, but I stopped because I got tired of only a couple of replies and very little conversation about peoples work.

In the time I've spent here, I've run into a number of issues.

* Doing a proper critique takes time, work, and be rather difficult.

* Posters who don't respond well to the critique, or even worse - don't respond at all.

* People show up on dgrin, put up a pic here as one of their first 10 posts to this site, get a review of their image which states that it's not nearly as good as they thought it was, and never return.

* Poor quality of pics to critique in the first place.

* With the recent change in moderation rules, I don't know where the "line in the sand"'s become between critiquing the picture and making suggestions for improvement, and something that belongs in Finishing School or Techniques. For instances, I critiqued a MC picture and posted some edits which radically transformed the picture for the better. The OP asked "how'd you do that", so I took a pic of my Lightroom settings and posted them, which got smacked by a moderator. Now, I can understand that the WP isn't the place for conversations that belong in other forums, but if an edit really brings out what an image could be, there can be room for a "here's how I did it" if the OP asks.

---

Having said all that, I've learned a lot from the time I've spent here critiquing pictures, and it's made me a much better shooter. The nature of what I shoot - mostly candids taken from a motorcycle at speed - means I haven't had much in the "portfolio" quality pic to post here, but I've got to work on that.

Originally Posted by polosoftphoto

I steered a buddy to the forum and he stated that there is no conversation and it's all business. Why not relax and have some fun? What do we need to do to get things a little more exciting and to HEAR from you?

The "brutally honest" (or maybe we should say "constructively honest"?) nature of the post kinda mitigates against that. It's not easy to critique a pic that someone's worked hard on, or thinks is really good stuff, and say it needs lots of work. Then again, there are pics where the OP got it all the way it should be, in which case all one can say is "wow!", and that doesn't leave much room for discussion beyond "how'd you do that?" which isn't grist for the post either.

So, maybe the "all business" tone is just the nature of the WP, and how it is.

[Icebear]

I've taken a month off from even looking at the WP because of the drek that was being put up there. Too often, folks post work that they know is mediocre and ask for constructive criticism. Wrong forum. Those photos should be offered in the appropriate forum, and the WP reserved for your "best work" only. When I look at something in the WP, I expect (hope) to see something special.

I think I've posted two images to the WP. To tell the truth, I wasn't beat up as bad as I thought I would be. It's called the Whipping Post folks. Don't be nasty with your comments, but every image has something that could make it bettr, at least to your eyes.

[Halite]

Originally Posted by polosoftphoto

We as a group have really bad performance. Why is it that when someone puts something on the whipping post they only get a couple of replies. I for awhile was posting photos as well as leaving feed back for others, but I stopped because I got tired of only a couple of replies and very little conversation about peoples work. I steered a buddy to the forum and he stated that there is no conversation and it's all business. Why not relax and have some fun? What do we need to do to get things a little more exciting and to HEAR from you?

There's definitely an ebb and a flow to this place. Lately, it's really been in an ebb. The dynamics of this forum seem to have been weakened by two extremes of behavior:

1. Drive-by postings from people new to the forum who are never heard from again, even to acknowledge whether any critiques made sense to them.

2. Responses from people who have posted images who take any criticism of the image as a criticism of them personally.

I'm more troubled by the first behavior. Angry responses can just be ignored. But I'm not keen to dedicate much time to a critique if I don't even know whether the image poster will bother to read it.

[DavidTO]

Hey, all, thanks for all these posts. We're watching them.

I wanted to make a couple of comments. First, we need to draw the line somewhere about offering how-to's in this forum, and we've drawn it at none. Feel free to start a new thread in another forum and link it from here to continue the conversation.

Second, I'd love input about how to increase the quality of both images and critiques. We can't decide if a given image is someone's best based solely on the image. There are too many variables in that. What we end up doing is tossing out the entries that say anything that indicates that they already know it's not their best. What else can we do as moderators? What can you all do as users to increase the quality of submisstions? And critique for that matter?

I guess I'm asking what changes you would make to the WP to improve it, since I really get how much you all care about it.

Oh, and last note: In da house covers a 30 minute period, and includes the bots that are scouring the net for google and yahoo and what-not. It's not all people, and in 30 minutes a bot can generate a lot of "visits".

[Halite]

Originally Posted by DavidTO

Hey, all, thanks for all these posts. We're watching them.

I wanted to make a couple of comments. First, we need to draw the line somewhere about offering how-to's in this forum, and we've drawn it at none. Feel free to start a new thread in another forum and link it from here to continue the conversation.

Second, I'd love input about how to increase the quality of both images and critiques. We can't decide if a given image is someone's best based solely on the image. There are too many variables in that. What we end up doing is tossing out the entries that say anything that indicates that they already know it's not their best. What else can we do as moderators? What can you all do as users to increase the quality of submisstions? And critique for that matter?

I guess I'm asking what changes you would make to the WP to improve it, since I really get how much you all care about it.

Oh, and last note: In da house covers a 30 minute period, and includes the bots that are scouring the net for google and yahoo and what-not. It's not all people, and in 30 minutes a bot can generate a lot of "visits".

I've honestly been puzzling these questions since you posted them and have to admit that I'm not long on good answers. I'll keep pondering though.

My sense is that the WP needs some effort once again to form some sense of trusting community. People need to show up and feel that participating provides some value in the interaction. Maybe the WP needs some sort of neon sign beckoning from the side of the road saying, "Eat at Joe's" or something so more people from Dgrin will stop by and try it out. It seems that a lot of people satisfy their need for honest criticism in specific forums--the People forum, for example, gets a lot of traffic in solid C&C.

[DavidTO]

Originally Posted by Halite

I've honestly been puzzling these questions since you posted them and have to admit that I'm not long on good answers. I'll keep pondering though.

My sense is that the WP needs some effort once again to form some sense of trusting community. People need to show up and feel that participating provides some value in the interaction. Maybe the WP needs some sort of neon sign beckoning from the side of the road saying, "Eat at Joe's" or something so more people from Dgrin will stop by and try it out. It seems that a lot of people satisfy their need for honest criticism in specific forums--the People forum, for example, gets a lot of traffic in solid C&C.

The trusting community needs to come from...the community. I think that you guys posting here in this thread have what's needed to take the WP to the next level.

[dlibrach]

The WP was the first section that I ever posted in and although I don't post much or visit dgrin often, it continues to be were I lurk the most when I am here. I think the idea and the concept behind the WP is great and unique on the 'net.

To properly make a critique of an image in the WP requires the viewer to spend a lot of time studying and analyzing the image and then being able to put all of those thoughts into words. This is more than just a simple, 'nice shot' or other two to three word sentences. There are many other places here for such feedback. As such, a lot of time is required and not everyone is interested it doing that and rather prefer quick posts and browsing a whole bunch of different topics. Plus, analyzing an image and going into detail about someone else's work and then publicly posting your thoughts (especially if they are different then what has already been said) can be quite intimidating for many people.

When I do get a chance to post, I try to choose images that I think are close to being ready for a portfolio but miss out on a few too many points that the OP many not be aware of. In these works, I get a sense that original poster really does believe that this is their best and with a couple of nudges in the right direction, could make a stunning image. If an image already has comments that have addressed what I would have said, or I feel that the OP is looking more for a "help make this better" rather than "here's an image that I took that I feel deserves to be on the cover of a magazine or win a photo contest", then I don't post.

I've always expected there to be fewer comments on images in this section but that those comments that are posted, will be much more informative and educational than anywhere else on this site or other similar forums.

As far as "input about how to increase the quality of both images and critiques", that's a tough one. Maybe you can do something like what you see in a few magazines. Get people to submit photos somewhere, and then have a few 'experts' (i.e. members that have a proven track record of really good, solid, informative and education critiques) to choose one or two from the pool on a weekly/monthly bases and give an in-depth analyzation. They can then post their thoughts and allow others to join in on the conversation. Makes for fewer posts but takes away a bit of the intimidation of being the first to critique something would provide a much needed boost in the education factor. Once people become more educated, by default the quality of images should be improved and more people will feel comfortable posting their thoughts in a constructive and in-depth manner. Once Just a thought....

Cheers,
D

D

[DonRicklin]

A good place to watch a person critique images well as to watch Craig Tanner do is 'Daily Critiques' at Radiant Vista. He covers all the bases and talks the lingo that one can pick-up and learn a lot from.

He speaks of Color depth, dynamic range, composition, taking images to B&W, etc.

Some of his more recent podcasts are long and rambling and not as appropriate to what we may be trying to achieve here, but many of his older shorter ones are.

He has podcast critique archived going back a couple years.

Well worth checking out.

Don

[ulrikft]

I think that making constructive comments is easier if people state their intention. What are you trying to communicate, what compromises have you made, what shortcomings do you know of, but accept.. etc!

[Cantfeelmyfingers]

Personally, a lot of the time I don't post when I would REALLY like to because I don't know how to change what I don't like about a photograph (whether it be in post or lighting, etc..).

[Miguel Delinquento]

Originally Posted by DavidTO

[deleted]
Second, I'd love input about how to increase the quality of both images and critiques. We can't decide if a given image is someone's best based solely on the image. There are too many variables in that. What we end up doing is tossing out the entries that say anything that indicates that they already know it's not their best. What else can we do as moderators? What can you all do as users to increase the quality of submisstions? And critique for that matter?

I guess I'm asking what changes you would make to the WP to improve it, since I really get how much you all care about it.

[deleted]

I like the turn of this thread into something substantial. I tend not to be a very conservative person, but I like what the WP is and the way it is setup.
I do think we have to trust submitter's perceptions about their "best work" because that is always a moving target. I'd rather be inclusive, especially in the context of self-improvement and education. I'll suffer a few stinkers to get to the good 'uns.
I also greatly appreciate the WP's separation of "what" commentary from "how to" instructions. Learning to see what is before one's eyes is a competency. In my corporate day job I lead meetings to determine requirements for multi-million dollar projects. Everyone always wants to jump into the "how are we going to do this" instead of the "what are we going to do" and "why are we doing this." But it is revealing at how people are challenged by having to answer the latter two questions first. But once they do, they have far more confidence (and lower risk) knowing they are doing the right thing in the right way.
Writing good criticism is very much a learned skill. It is far less natural than taking a photograph. From a writer's perspective, I learn as much from reading a well-written critique than I do after submitting a photograph. One improvement I'd like to see are occasional critiques submitted by the Digital Grin staff. Everyone could learn from that, and it would help keep the quality level up around here.
I'd also like submitters to be a little more involved with their response. Not with a plethora of servile thank yous, nor with defensive jabs, but with geniune inquiry about the thinking behind a criticism.
That's my thoughts for now. Overall the WP is a rare treat for photographers and critics.

M

[timk519]

Originally Posted by Cantfeelmyfingers

Personally, a lot of the time I don't post when I would REALLY like to because I don't know how to change what I don't like about a photograph (whether it be in post or lighting, etc..).

Then tell us how you react to it, and why you think you're reacting to it the way you are.

That would be instructive all by itself. Not all critiques have to include "and here's how to make it better."

[timk519]

Originally Posted by Miguel Delinquento

Writing good criticism is very much a learned skill. It is far less natural than taking a photograph. From a writer's perspective, I learn as much from reading a well-written critique than I do after submitting a photograph.

One idea this brings up is - to critique the critiques. Learning how to do a good critique - and knowing it's good (or not) would be just as helpful as critiquing the pics is supposed to be.