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Projet Chalenge and Question
Sam
Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
First, there is a back story and this is not one on those how much to charge posts!!
I will provide to back story later. I promise
Now to the point. Client wants some product photography done. Company has 10,000 sq ft warehouse and sells a variety of electronic components. The parts range from small 1" or 2" connectors, cables, small circuit boards, to items 12" to 16". Various material and color.
Work needs to done onsite. They will provide an employee to retrieve clean and identify by part number of each item. We, you need to provide all other equipment needed.
There are prox 1500 products to be shot with three different views of each item for a total of prox 4500 images.
Client wants good clean detailed high rez images for web, catalog printing with some to be used on trade show banners. Background to be shadow free white. Colors need to be accurate, blacks to be blacks whites to be whites reds, etc. Each delivered file must include the individual part number.
So basically 4500 high rez images, shadow free white background with part numbers included in file name. Files will be uploaded onto a client provided HD.
How long do you think it would take you to complete this project, What equipment do you think you would need and what do you think you would quote per image?
Again this really isn't a "how much do I charge, or how do I do it".
The back story will be given after I get some thoughts on how others would approach this project.
Thank You!!
Sam
I will provide to back story later. I promise
Now to the point. Client wants some product photography done. Company has 10,000 sq ft warehouse and sells a variety of electronic components. The parts range from small 1" or 2" connectors, cables, small circuit boards, to items 12" to 16". Various material and color.
Work needs to done onsite. They will provide an employee to retrieve clean and identify by part number of each item. We, you need to provide all other equipment needed.
There are prox 1500 products to be shot with three different views of each item for a total of prox 4500 images.
Client wants good clean detailed high rez images for web, catalog printing with some to be used on trade show banners. Background to be shadow free white. Colors need to be accurate, blacks to be blacks whites to be whites reds, etc. Each delivered file must include the individual part number.
So basically 4500 high rez images, shadow free white background with part numbers included in file name. Files will be uploaded onto a client provided HD.
How long do you think it would take you to complete this project, What equipment do you think you would need and what do you think you would quote per image?
Again this really isn't a "how much do I charge, or how do I do it".
The back story will be given after I get some thoughts on how others would approach this project.
Thank You!!
Sam
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Comments
Then what is it?
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=210682
pp
Flickr
Could be, how about the rest of the challenge, and your quote per image price?
Sam
Some thoughts
Any workflow timings - if working out an average / pic cost - could easily be greatly? influenced by the helper's efficiency.
Will you have a helper to do the admin stuff, like re-naming files /backing stuff up / organising folders for product groups (if relevant) ... or are you gong to do everything absolutely everything pic related?
Is it local, if so, how so, if not, who's paying travel / hotel etc ... will they want the whole lot doing in one session / visit to location - or are they prepared to accept you fitting in other existing jobs?
Even at a min /frame (with no screw-ups /retakes) @ 60/24 and no breaks / sleep etc ... there's over 3 days of mindless clicking
Depends how much you want / need the gig and what you are typically aiming for re $ return.
From some of your portfolio pics it looks like you've done (some of) this sort of stuff before ... but I've no idea of what scale / quantity ... or, - v. important - what degree of pp has been done / pic to achieve the desired end result.
$20k rounded up.
based on local, $4 / pic, 2mins / pic average and already got the right gear.
As we both know, you charge what the market will stand, not necessarily a figure that has any relevance to what it cost to produce / make ... I've no idea what the market in your neck 'o the woods is like ...
Double, if you don't particularly want the job, but as a test.
pp
ps .. I did wonder about the wisdom of including this bit on your site, btw
<< if it's still or moving, alive or inanimate, if it can be seen I can photograph it >>
Flickr
Thank you!
This is the type of reply I am seeking. Again I am not seeking advice on what I should charge, but what you would charge.
Your post clearly demonstrates a clear understanding of the project and issues which would affect the time and costs involved with this high volume work.
The client provided helper would only be responsible you locating, cleaning, providing items, placing the items on the shooting table and identifying the item by part number. Everything else would be my responsibility.
Can you clarify your comment, ( I did wonder about the wisdom of including this bit on your site, btw
Does it somehow present a negative impression? Why do you think it could be unwise?
Thanks!!!!!
Sam, I suspect this is probably a fair bit to do with cultural differences associated with the 2 sides of the pond that are in play here - together with personalities, of course
Personally, I'd never dream of stating / suggesting that I'm capable of taking what I'd consider to be a 'hrp' (half reasonable pic) across all genres, irrespective of subject ... especially if, elsewhere on the site, I also 'guaranteed' (whatever that means in this context) said pics.
Sometimes at my local venue I get asked for advice about 'what camera I should buy' ... I generally wince / cringe if the response to my 'what do you want to take pics of' is ... 'everything'
I have yet to come across a generalist's site where pics across all the genres covered (let alone exist) are of consistent high quality.
Possibly because it's the one (extremely narrow) area of my interest, the wildlife content of said sites is often very poor - imo.
I accept the need to market oneself / services in a positive manner to potential clients, in a manner that (hopefully) includes some sort of usp, of course.
On a practical note, how would you go about taking pics of the 'floaters' in one's eye, as seen by the eye's owner?
pp
Flickr
Interesting take on my comment. I would never have thought of your interpretation. If I get a couple more people that see this as you do I will remove it. Thanks!!
As to the eye floaters.......................I have never tried this......................but if I understand your question I would start thinking along the lines of taking a macro shot of the eye. If I can capture the floater in the image I would then extract the floaters from the rest of the image, place the floaters on a transparent background layer. Inverse / flip, etc to provide an outline as seen from the eye not the camera, then put this layer on top of any scene a person would look at. Beach, sky, etc. You will need to use an image with the best color, subject, illumination to produce an image that comes close to showing what this individual actually sees with his or her own eyes.
Let me know if I am any where close...
Thanks!!
Sam
Depends on one's definition of 'taking a pic' ... as opposed to creating a montage
pp
edit
Btw, as I understand things, the 'floaters' are shadows cast on the retina, by the objects, rather than the objects themselves inside the eye ... so taking pics of said objects from the front of the eye, also wouldn't really 'cut it' ...
This is, of course an extreme example ... my point is that I've yet to see a generalist's site containing consistent high quality pics across all genres displayed.
Flickr
While i do welcome and thank you for your reply we are drifting off my original question. I hope I can get some others to comment on the question at hand.
I really do want to hear how others would approach the project and what they would charge.
Sam
Indeed - my apologies ... as with all issues, both your original Q, and my drifting ... the devil is in the detail.
Likewise re other input.
Ditto.
pp
Flickr
No apology necessary. All is good.
Sam
As far as equipment goes, that depends on how much stuff you want to carry in and out every day, unless it's in a secured area and you trust to leave your personal equipment there. I personally did something similar at my day job, and all I used was a 16" beauty dish & flash with a sock on the beauty dish to soften the light, and a trigger system.
GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
Thanks for your thoughts. Breaks? Lunch? You gota be kidding. I tape an empty soda bottle to my leg, and have drinks and energy bars in my pockets.
I generally work on the premise that there will be 6 hours of productive work out of an 8 hour day.
As for the lighting, I had a much more elaborate set up in mind. A more elaborate set up will take longer to set up but after that the capture, and any needed processing will be much faster and more consistent.
Plus I have found clients really want a firm price as opposed to a day rate for this type of work.
How long do you think a project like this would take you?
Sam
Yes, you've got to have appropriate kit, and know how to use same, but ...
Would've thought some way of organising a 'buffer' of parts to be photographed was well worth considering ... unless they're all so 'top secret / black ops' bits of kit that they're only allowed out of the stores, one at a time, under armed guard etc.
Working on your 6hr figure, then 3 (or 4) 'job lots / day, on site, next to you, being placed in front of the cam as and when required.
Something like the erk trotting off to retrieve a small 1in widget, you take 3 pics @ even 1 min / per ... him / her to pick up widget, trot back to stores, store person to do relevant paperwork bs, sign out next ... blah blah etc ... is nowt short of laughable ... unless you're shooting a new series of 'Faulty Towers' set in a different environment
pp
Flickr
Again thanks for your reply, although I have no idea how many items are in your "job lots", what an erk is, or what the heck "Faulty Towers" is.
If they want white backgrounds then a seamless paper setup using 3 lights, 2 with softboxes and one flashing the background to take care of any shadows. I would have to see what their expectations on this would be. If the products are as described a large table next to a wall would be good enough I think. Just tape the paper against the wall and drape over the table. I would also build something like this http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/11/50-diy-projects-for-lighting.html
I might use 3 different cameras and have them setup on tripods for the 3 different views to make that part quicker, but then you add file management problems on the back end. However if the clocks are synced then it would be a matter of sorting based on time. It would be worth buying low end DSLR's and kit lenses for this to get all cameras the same. I would probably be shooting f8 to f11 anyway so there shouldn't be a problem of critical sharpness. If I get WB down it would be tempting to shoot jpg to reduce post processing down to toning but I would probably shoot raw. Get a good preset and apply to all images.
A good photo managing software program would be a must so updating the exif info to include product name and other stuff in the descriptions would be a matter of cut and past/fill in the blanks. I would use Photo Mechanic.
In regards to how long it would it woudl take, wouldn't even guess until there was actual shooting for a day and see how that went.
I was hoping for more participation and some posts that might say something like " If I could set up X and they would provide B and I hired an assistant I would est 6 days and quote $$$.
The story is simple, After initial contact I asked if they had a budget. They responded that they tought they could go as high as $2.00 a photo. $2.00 times 4500 images is $9000.00, At that pont I felt their total estimated budget was at least in the ball park.
Also note client informed me that some time in the past they hired a photography grad to to photograph the parts and wasted a $1,000.00.
At this point the challenge was to figure out how to organize and systematize the project from product supply, lighting, capture, getting the part number into the file name. to post processing, and delivering images. Think Henry Ford and the assembly line.
Half way through this process the client got back to me and informed me they were getting quotes to do the shoot for $1.00 per image. (also note the price quotes were being provided without all the project details) We agreed that a visit would be in order to clearly define the details.
Even though they got burned in the past with a cheap quote, they were again being lured by A cheap quote.
A few days later the co said they had hired a new graphic artist for advertizing and they were hoping he could do the photography.
I never did get to the point of providing a final quote but (based on some man power commitments from them) was leaning towards quoting $1.50 per image and I estimated the project would require 6 or 7 days. This included hiring an assistant at $200.00 per day.
I was hoping to hear from people with far more volume product photography experience then I have to comment on what they would quote, and if thy would think a $1.00 or $2.00 per image was judicious or reasonable.
The good part for me was the exercise of working out a system to use for the next high volume project.
Sam
ps: two days ago I was talking to another business person who needed product photography. The project would have been 65 item with 5 views of each item, The items are antiques and collectibles. Think the price range was from $50.00 to close to $2000.00. The challenge here is all the items are different, porcelain, glass, silver, fabrics, size, etc.
Had to be done fast and wanted it all done at one time.
After some detail discussions she let me know her daughter had a friend who is a photographer and is giving her a shot at it.
I think I am off to Walmart to apply for a greeter's position.
In the end a company like this will go the cheap route or end up going to a marketing firm who will hire a pro at a higher level than what you quoted.
Which is exactly where I thought the project would go from the outset.
Big companies hire people to do the whole project where catalouges are involved. You can see their names printed in the front of the catalouges and if you look them up they have their own photographic departments that so this stuff all day every day.
For the smaller companies, 90% of them will baulk at the cost of having it done properly and will usually resort to some employee with a camera to do the job. The time and effort in this one for any shooter would automatically price it out of the range of most companys who didn't have the Funds or inclination to go through a production house. To have a hope to land the gig, you have to sell on the benefits and take the attention off the costs.
I think the suggestion of using 3 cameras at once was a brilliant one. Had I thought of it, which I probably wouldn't have, I would have just gone out and bought some high end P&S bodies. They have the MP and lens quality to handle this job and could be synced and tethered to edit the file numbers on the fly for the part numbers.
If they thought they could do $2.00 a pic, my price would have been $2.25 or $2.50 per pic. They are never going to give you their top end price and to match or go under it is naive. Costs will only ever blow out on something like this, They will never go under so you build in the best buffer and profit you can. You go above their price and they are OK with it because you then come in where they allowed for by building in some margin on their end when they quoted you. It's human nature to hold back when you tell someone how much you can afford.
I was getting $1000 a day for this work back when I was shooting film.
I wouldn't do it for less now regardless of the devaluing of photography or whatever excuses people make these days for not being able to sell themselves and the value of their work.
It's Not about photography, its about what the value of your work means in terms on what the company hiring you can leverage their revenue from what they make from you in terms of extra sales, clients and markets as well as making it as hassle and headache free for them in the end.
Extra revenue, images they will feel makes them look better than their competitors at a trade show and gives their sales team confidence in having the resources to sell to the best of their ability's what you push and is the real hot button. No one wants hassles and headaches and issues with the end product and that's the stuff you sell, not what the cost per pic is going to be that's probably not coming out of the decision makers pocket anyway, but can potentially put money in it.
The way you land gigs like this and beat the amateurs is not with pricing but in understanding what is really important to the client and selling that.
They aren't looking to buy pictures, they are looking to buy profits.
It's not pictures or cost of production that is the real important thing to THEM.
You are correct on many points.
I was willing, still am, to take the job for a less than I would normally want. My assistant is a little short on funds so $1000.00 or so in her pocket would really help.
I think I could have got the job done in 7 days. 5 shooting and 2 PP, etc. That would be about $1000.00 per day total.
Your are absolute right about selling quality over price. While others had been throwing out numbers like $1.00 an image I had communicated about my overall approach, quality and details. She seemed to like this and wanted a face to face. I do understand most clients will not give out there max budget, but if the number they are willing to give is close to reasonable then it's worth the effort to work out the details and quote. Again if I could have quoted last week I probably would less than if she calls back in a week or two.
One thought I did have but needed to discus to see how valuable this would be to her was there were no facility, employee, people, etc images on her website. This might have been a bonus I could have offered to sweeten the pot.
I thought I was on the right direction after hearing about her failed experience with the last person hired to provide product photography. A recent photo school grad.
3 Cameras sounds both interesting and scary, but I do not believe this would be practical for this project.
Again my reason for this was to see what others, especially those with high volume product photography thought about methodology and price.
Unfortunately the participation over all here at Digital Grin is at a low point. :cry
Thanks for your input.
Sam
Asking about price on forums is useless and pointless.
There are always a myriad of factors that influence what the person asking knows, and doesn't and often can't relate and even if they did, their perception would be different to everyone elses. It's not even valid as a guide because the variables and lack of information is always too large.
Merely to illustrate the point rather than any blame, look at this very thread. Compare the info given in the first post to what ends up being divulged by the last. There was a lot more info given intially here than on most threads as well.
There is the assistant factor in play, the back end of employee, amenities, and other promo potential work, the specified budget, the need, desire and ability of the shooter to do the job and not by any means least, the pain in the arse factor. Then of course you have little things that influence potential answers like the area and market influences, competition, how much work you have or don't have on and what that may be worth and other local influences.
I acknowledge that in this case as against most others, the request was what would you charge but it's impossible to know once again without being there and knowing all the factors. Typically, most people don't even include the most basic info and when asked, you find they haven't even done the most basic qualification of the prospect to have enough info to go on in the first place.
As much as I'll get lambasted for it, I cannot see a single point in asking for pricing info. A person would be better off spinning a Roulette wheel. at least then they would get one straight answer that would be as good as any other. I cannot recall EVER reading a pricing thread where the poster went with any price ever given or generally even close to it. The unknown influence always come into it an make anyone elses response null and void. Many initially suggest stupid numbers and even when given good and sound reasons why these are not workable, go with their initial thoughts anyway making the input of peoples time and experience completely wasted.
I spose if there were any participation left here, as I have said many times before, a pricing section would have been more than warranted give the number of times the question is posed in most sections.
That way all the pricing questions that never get a definable answer anyway could be put together so people could see the answer.... there is no answer.
In this case Sam, if they do get back to you, you can be fairly sure you can take the bull by the horns and charge a very worthwhile rate and they will be happy to agree to it.
As far as methodology goes, I have never shot that many items at one go and not sure I'd like to. I think I'd get too bored and the harder I tried to concentrate the more I'd stuff up after a few days.
I did do a job for a major company once. They were umming and Ahhing on a few things so I suggested a risk reversal for them to do a test shoot on a couple of items so they could see what they would get instead of the " Imagine this" that clearly they couldn't . Shot it on tranny and took it back and projected it to the decision makers. Result was they were so impressed they decided to go with the whole product line not just what they were initially thinking of.
The result was I came back to the studio with my large station wagon literally packed to the roof with items. I mean it was stuffed and no doubt illegal for the lack of vision alone.
They didn't want them back either citing the time and effort in restocking it would be too much. They asked for 3 things back only because they were new sample lines they wanted to have on display and I kept the rest which was quite handy. I took my time with them and had the job covered in 2 Nights. The weather was great at that time so I spent the days lazing at the beach and shot in the cooler temps of the night. :0)
I'm still earning from that job. I found a bunch of the things up the back the other week in a forgotten old wardrobe and mentioned them to someone who subsequently paid me REAL good money for what I would have otherwise thrown out. She reckons they are collectors items now and to get them unused in the original boxes with the leaflets etc is of course the holly grail.
Hope I have some more stashed away somewhere!
Interesting how it could be scary. Doing shoots this like this it helps anyway you can to get it down to assembly line and having to make as few changes as possible. If you needed three different views, having 3 cameras set at consistent exposure and distance for each view would help.
I have found slight changes with a view might require some exposure changes. Having 3 cameras set at exposure for their respective views would reduce the amount of time spent tweaking with one camera for possibly three different exposures. Having three different light triggers that control the power of the lights would be a big help as well.
Of course talking in theory and actually implementing are two different things.