Why no EXIF in Lightbox? Copyright stripped!

Ferguson · March 10, 2016

I just noticed that there's no EXIF (or any metadata) in the Lightbox display, at least on Chrome and Edge, did not try all browsers.

While hopefully people use the download button to copy images, for the sake of preserving people's copyright metadata, should not this display include exif?

The much smaller images on the collage landscape DO have metadata.

denisegoldberg · March 10, 2016

I just clicked the info button from one of your recent photos (in lightbox) and I do see a copyright in the info box. I needed to scroll in that box to see it though.

From this image - http://www.captivephotons.com/date/2016-03-1/2016-03-11/i-Wc7M5n8/A (see attached image below).

I also looked at info for one of my images and the copyright shows without scrolling. The difference I see is that my file name used only 1 line, and yours used 3 lines. It appears that the 3 lines of title plus latitude/longitude pushed the copyright below the immediately visible part of the info box.

It seems to me that copyright is more important than location (lat/long). I'd like to see it shown above them in the info box.

--- Denise

denisegoldberg · March 10, 2016

I did a right click save of the same photo from lightbox to check the copyright in the saved image. It is showing there as well.

No worries, I've already deleted your image from my computer.

--- Denise

Jtring · March 10, 2016

But in this gallery -- http://www.captivephotons.com/Travel/ChicagoAugust2010/ -- I see no copyright in the info box but a copyright in the download (which, yes, I've deleted). Something is going on.

Ferguson · March 10, 2016

denisegoldberg wrote: »

I did a right click save of the same photo from lightbox to check the copyright in the saved image. It is showing there as well.

No worries, I've already deleted your image from my computer.

--- Denise

OK, hang on a second, I am not insane. At least not in this regard. I'm finding that the effect is sort of random.

First, I'm looking at the actual image not the info button.

I just did a lot of experimenting, and I think I see a bit of a pattern.

First, I'm using a EXIF viewer in Chrome to see this, which makes it easier to browse and look, no need to copy and open the image. If anyone is interested it's in the Chrome storew as "Exif Viewer" from Rodrigue, and shows an overlay at the top of the photo. However, this is not the source of the issue, as if I right click and copy-image, and paste into a photo editor, the information (or lack of it) is consistent. This isn't necessary to have the problem, it is just painful to hunt for an example if you have to copy each image and look in a photo editor.

This appears related to size, both image and monitor. I have a large monitor (2560 x 1440), and was viewing these with the browser maximized, though not full screen. If I reduce significantly the size of the browser window it does not happen (except slide show, read on).

Also, if I go into lightbox for an image not showing exif, and use the lightbox size control, then all sizes except "Fill" show exif fine, it is only "fill" that fails. And only on the large monitor.

Finally, the full screen slide show (from the button under the gallery description on mine, which I can't show small) never has exif shown at all. In fact Denise, I tried this on some of your galleries, and they do not show exif in the slide show either (right click while displayed, copy image, paste to editor - nothing). I don't know if this is size related or not as it is full screen. Incidentally, beautiful artistic images, I wish I had an eye for art.

Anyway... I browsed around a bunch of galleries and the FILL size images that fail seem random. They are not a particular camera or anything. If I just hit right arrow over and over, sometimes it is 1 in 20 without, sometimes it is 4 out of 5 without. MAYBE it relates to pixel dimensions and how(if) it has to resize for fill.

Denise, I tried your galleries just paging around not in slide show, and every shot showed EXIF. But you (I think) limit image size.

I really think what I'm seeing relates to image size and browser window size, and relates to some resizing that Smugmug is doing. And/or their CDN. I did try going to a different browser (used same viewport size roughly) and got the same results, so it is not a chrome specific issue (I also tried Safari).

Anyone have a similar sized screen? Here's a case that worked for me:

http://www.captivephotons.com/Events/FGCUWBB/Stetson030916/

Go to that gallery, and if so inclined check shot #3 and #4 from collage landscape before moving on to lightboox. You should see both show exif if you right-click and save to a file or copy to an editor.

Now click on image #3 - it should have exif.

Now right arrow to #4 - for me, that one lacks EXIF.

Caveat: I am unsure whether the lack is random initially or not, so it might not work for this particular shot, and it may be too much to ask, but if anyone wants to try that EXIF viewer, just keep hitting right arrow and see if any do not show EXIF. But only if you have a WIDE monitor and the browser is full size -- it works fine smaller.

Really... I'm not insane (at least not on this subject).

Jtring · March 10, 2016

I didn't work through all your cases, but I see some of the same hit-of-miss situation in my galleries. So far I've found the problem in two of my own -- https://jtringl.smugmug.com/Browser/Sierra-Nevada/Tiltill-Loop-Yosemite/ and https://jtringl.smugmug.com/Browser/Far-Northern-California/Yolla-Bolly-East-Side/. These have images with no copyright in the info box but with a copyright in the download. That behavior seems to apply to the info box at all image sizes. I'm on a 1920 x 1200 monitor. Both of these are from 2013. So far I haven't found this issue in more recent (2014 or later) galleries. Since many of my older galleries don't have copyright info uploaded -- I'm less concerned about images taken with the small-sensor point-and-shoots I was using back then -- I may have only these or these plus just a few others.

Ferguson · March 10, 2016

Jtring wrote: »

I didn't work through all your cases, but I see some of the same hit-of-miss situation in my galleries. So far I've found the problem in two of my own -- https://jtringl.smugmug.com/Browser/Sierra-Nevada/Tiltill-Loop-Yosemite/ and https://jtringl.smugmug.com/Browser/Far-Northern-California/Yolla-Bolly-East-Side/. These have images with no copyright in the info box but with a copyright in the download. That behavior seems to apply to the info box at all image sizes. I'm on a 1920 x 1200 monitor. Both of these are from 2013. So far I haven't found this issue in more recent (2014 or later) galleries. Since many of my older galleries don't have copyright info uploaded -- I'm less concerned about images taken with the small-sensor point-and-shoots I was using back then -- I may have only these or these plus just a few others.

Jim, is it possible your initial upload did not have copyright and you added it and replaced the images?

Smugmug does not update the info consistently in the info box when images are replaced, nor does it update the EXIF/IPTC info in the smaller generated images when it regenerates them from replaced images, so if you add information like copyright and replace, it will not be there consistently, necessarily.

In the case I'm discussing there is NO exif or iptc information at all present in these displayed images.

Jtring · March 10, 2016

Ferguson wrote: »

Jim, is it possible your initial upload did not have copyright and you added it and replaced the images?

Smugmug does not update the info consistently in the info box when images are replaced, nor does it update the EXIF/IPTC info in the smaller generated images when it regenerates them from replaced images, so if you add information like copyright and replace, it will not be there consistently, necessarily.

In the case I'm discussing there is NO exif or iptc information at all present in these displayed images.

Since these are older images, I don't know for certain, but it is quite likely I've updated these since they were first put up. I don't recall adding the copyright information after the initial upload, but I've done stranger things than that. So you may be quite right on what's going on.

I know there was a discussion about display copy metadata and the vagaries of the metadata database a while ago. None-the-less, it does really seem odd that you can view and download a full-size original on my site, see no copyright in the info box next to the original on the screen, but download the full-size file and find a copyright there.

Ferguson · March 10, 2016

Jtring wrote: »

I know there was a discussion about display copy metadata and the vagaries of the metadata database a while ago. None-the-less, it does really seem odd that you can view and download a full-size original on my site, see no copyright in the info box next to the original on the screen, but download the full-size file and find a copyright there.

Yes, and Smugmug vows to fix that though they declare it a feature, at least if you are doing image replacements. The download is always the real, honest original you upload - they say they never touch it. But the other sizes and info displayed are derivations, and they appear to have made numerous ... optimizations maybe is the word... that depart from honoring what you upload, so that they do not update certain information on replacement. To get it truly updated you have to delete and upload new (which changes the URL).

My situation may be a bit different. There appear to be a couple cases (slide show and some certain resizing) where they are not showing any metadata at all on the image displayed.

Ferguson · March 13, 2016

No one with a wide monitor and able to view exif?

leftquark · March 16, 2016

I took a peak on my 30" monitor and everything appears fine. I did install Exif Viewer (couldn't figure out how to get it to show Copyright Info, so I also installed a different EXIF Viewer). It appears that there's a bug in Rodrigue's EXIF Viewer that sometimes doesn't display the EXIF info. I downloaded the files that weren't appearing to show EXIF and they had the EXIF embedded in them just fine.

For the display sizes (Tiny, Thumb, S, M, L, XL, X2L, and X3L) we strip most of the metadata to keep file sizes low and increase the speed at which the photos load. Copyright is still displayed.
We also render custom sizes, on the fly, when necessary, and those appear to have the (mostly) full set of metadata from the original file* (* = based on my testing. I'll have to double-check with Engineering).

Ferguson · March 16, 2016

leftquark wrote: »

I took a peak on my 30" monitor and everything appears fine. I did install Exif Viewer (couldn't figure out how to get it to show Copyright Info, so I also installed a different EXIF Viewer). It appears that there's a bug in Rodrigue's EXIF Viewer that sometimes doesn't display the EXIF info. I downloaded the files that weren't appearing to show EXIF and they had the EXIF embedded in them just fine.

For the display sizes (Tiny, Thumb, S, M, L, XL, X2L, and X3L) we strip most of the metadata to keep file sizes low and increase the speed at which the photos load. Copyright is still displayed.
We also render custom sizes, on the fly, when necessary, and those appear to have the (mostly) full set of metadata from the original file* (* = based on my testing. I'll have to double-check with Engineering).

When you say you downloaded it -- like copy-image and paste?

When I would not see metadata, I would do a copy/paste of the image into a photo viewer and still would not see it. If I download the image (original size) it's obviously there.

Since I tested each explicit size choice, my guess is what I am seeing is when it resizes on the fly. Is there a simple way (URL structure or some such) to tell when that is happening? And perhaps reproduce it, e.g. a direct URL to that image size so it can be tested?

Ferguson · March 16, 2016

Well... I cannot reproduce the problem today at all.

Same browser, same plugin, same galleries as before (plus I tried a lot of others). All show EXIF.

Perhaps more telling the slideshows, which for me were 100% without exif, now have exif.

Something has changed. But like most problems once gone, I have no idea where to look now until it comes back.

leftquark · March 16, 2016

Ferguson wrote: »

When you say you downloaded it -- like copy-image and paste?

When I would not see metadata, I would do a copy/paste of the image into a photo viewer and still would not see it. If I download the image (original size) it's obviously there.

I'm fairly certain that a copy/paste of the photo into a photo viewer will never copy of the metadata. It appears all it's doing is copying the pixels, not the actual file.

When EXIF Viewer didn't show me metadata, I would right click on the file and do a "Save As". If RCM was turned on, I'd just get the URL of the actual photo, and then download that.

Ferguson wrote: »

Since I tested each explicit size choice, my guess is what I am seeing is when it resizes on the fly. Is there a simple way (URL structure or some such) to tell when that is happening? And perhaps reproduce it, e.g. a direct URL to that image size so it can be tested?

Yep, as you know the display sizes have the /0/M/filename-M.jpg. The custom sizes generated on the fly will have the "M" replaced with a size, for example '/0/2562x1600/filename-2562x1600.jpg'.

I spoke to Engineering today and it appears that the Custom Sizes should also have the same subset of metadata, though right now it looks like they have the full set. We'll probably update the custom sizes to use the subset so they have smaller file sizes. Either way, Copyright is part of the subset that remains in the file, so you should be safe with all display sizes, including custom ones.

Ferguson wrote: »

Well... I cannot reproduce the problem today at all.

Well that's good! I thought it seemed strange that things were out-of-whack.

Ferguson · March 16, 2016

leftquark wrote: »

Well that's good! I thought it seemed strange that things were out-of-whack.

Really, they were. I was not hallucinating (at least about this). It went on for a couple days at least.

But I can't get it to miss at all now.

One day I'll resurrect this with proof.

Why no EXIF in Lightbox? Copyright stripped!

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