Need event pricing advice

ColoradoRunGalColoradoRunGal Registered Users Posts: 1 Beginner grinner
edited October 30, 2014 in Mind Your Own Business
Hello all,

I would appreciate some advice regarding pricing for an event. The event is a running race--actual, multiple races under the same event banner: a kids' fun run, a 5k, and a 10k, with approximately 800 participants. The event organizers want photos of each of the participants (in action), the awards ceremony, and then miscellaneous other photos of the event. They are thinking of allowing for free downloads of the photos by the participants (which, essentially, means I'd sell them the images, I guess), although I could probably tell them that I'd prefer selling them myself. I anticipate being at the event itself for 4-ish hours.
I'm an avid amateur photographer (and runner), and would like to get into the race photography space for fun and to make some extra money.

I can envision a couple of scenarios...
1) Photographing the event itself, "selling" the photos to the race, allowing for free downloads.
(I would still need to process the photos, sorting each by bib #, setting up for participants to find their photos, etc.)

2) Photographing the event itself, but setting up my SmugMug site to allow for the sale of photos. This would include processing the photos as above, but also adding watermarks to prevent theft. This also means I'd need to upgrade my account to at least the "portfolio" level.

How is pricing typically done in these situations? I want to give the race organizers a fair price, while also being fair to myself.

Thanks for any and all help in advance,
ColoradoRunGal

Comments

  • WirenWiren Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
    edited September 2, 2014
    Hello all,

    I would appreciate some advice regarding pricing for an event. The event is a running race--actual, multiple races under the same event banner: a kids' fun run, a 5k, and a 10k, with approximately 800 participants. The event organizers want photos of each of the participants (in action), the awards ceremony, and then miscellaneous other photos of the event. They are thinking of allowing for free downloads of the photos by the participants (which, essentially, means I'd sell them the images, I guess), although I could probably tell them that I'd prefer selling them myself. I anticipate being at the event itself for 4-ish hours.
    I'm an avid amateur photographer (and runner), and would like to get into the race photography space for fun and to make some extra money.

    I can envision a couple of scenarios...
    1) Photographing the event itself, "selling" the photos to the race, allowing for free downloads.
    (I would still need to process the photos, sorting each by bib #, setting up for participants to find their photos, etc.)

    2) Photographing the event itself, but setting up my SmugMug site to allow for the sale of photos. This would include processing the photos as above, but also adding watermarks to prevent theft. This also means I'd need to upgrade my account to at least the "portfolio" level.

    How is pricing typically done in these situations? I want to give the race organizers a fair price, while also being fair to myself.

    Thanks for any and all help in advance,
    ColoradoRunGal

    I am not sure how to tell you what to charge, but I can give you a little advice....

    1. try to make a deal to sell the whole lot of race photo's to the event itself and let them worry about drstributing the images to the runners.... that's easier for you and less time consuming, you just want to shoot and deliver once.

    2. In my experience (I have shot a lot of softball in the past), shooting, posting to your website and waiting for sales will not produce much if anything at all.... for the following reasons.
    a) getting folks to remember and take time to visit your site is a challenge unto itself
    b) most folks will go to your site and look... but not actually purchase
    c) as easy as it is to purchase via SM, most folks are literally confounded by it and won't go through the process.

    Online sales are a rarity when I have tried anything similar (and not as complicated) as what you are trying to do.... my suggestion; get paid, then deliver - worry about getting the shots and let the event organizers deal with the delivery headaches.

    Lee
    Lee Wiren
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited September 3, 2014
    ColoradoRungGal,

    First, DON"T GUESS, get all the details upfront.

    You need to know if your going to sell to the event organizers and what level of processing organizing, etc you will be responsible for.

    If you create a way for the entrants to find themselves via their bib numbers you could run afoul of a ^%&$& named Peter Wolf who owns a patent for selling event images online using bib numbers and or time. Let the event organizers deal with this.

    I recommend simply contracting with the event organizers to take the photos and deliver the images to them. Don't bother with selling them yourself online. This has proven to be a loosing proposition.

    When working for event photography companies the going rate is between $15.00 per hour and $50.00 per hour. The average is probably $35.00 to $40.00 per hour. The photographer will typically be responsible for taking images in a med size .jpg and delivering unprocessed images.

    The event co generally doesn't do any processing, straightning, color ballance and may not even cull out the missed focus images.

    I would recommend charging $50.00 per hour for the shooting, and add on $$ after that for any additional work, processing etc.

    Sam
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited September 3, 2014
    The Peter Wolf patent was invalidated. Why it was ever granted in the first place is a testament to what is wrong with the Patent Office. Sigh...

    Do allow free downloads, and get paid by the organizer a fee that you feel is comfortable for the work you will put into this. 800 action shots taken and keyworded and sorted. Plus the other pics.

    Post processing? For this type of work? Seriously? Shoot large fine JPG with a bump in saturation, contrast and sharpness and call it a day. THIS TYPE OF WORK DOES NOT PAY FOR POST PROCESSING. This is not a portrait session, it is not a wedding.

    Going route 2, where you sell the photos, is a money losing proposition. But putting the photos up on YOUR website, for free downloads (because you have already been paid), gets eyeballs on your website, not theirs.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • moose135moose135 Registered Users Posts: 1,413 Major grins
    edited September 3, 2014
    I can't add to the very good advice you've gotten from Lee, Sam, and Bill, but this part of your post concerns me:
    The event is a running race--actual, multiple races under the same event banner: a kids' fun run, a 5k, and a 10k, with approximately 800 participants. The event organizers want photos of each of the participants (in action), the awards ceremony, and then miscellaneous other photos of the event...I anticipate being at the event itself for 4-ish hours.

    They want "action" shots of 800 participants, plus other event coverage. Are you planning to shoot this solo? Seems like a lot happening in a 4-hour period.
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited September 3, 2014
    mercphoto wrote: »
    The Peter Wolf patent was invalidated. Why it was ever granted in the first place is a testament to what is wrong with the Patent Office. Sigh...

    Do allow free downloads, and get paid by the organizer a fee that you feel is comfortable for the work you will put into this. 800 action shots taken and keyworded and sorted. Plus the other pics.

    Post processing? For this type of work? Seriously? Shoot large fine JPG with a bump in saturation, contrast and sharpness and call it a day. THIS TYPE OF WORK DOES NOT PAY FOR POST PROCESSING. This is not a portrait session, it is not a wedding.

    Going route 2, where you sell the photos, is a money losing proposition. But putting the photos up on YOUR website, for free downloads (because you have already been paid), gets eyeballs on your website, not theirs.

    Bill,

    To the best of my knowledge Wolf's ridiculous patent is still valid. If it isn't please point me to a source of this information.

    Sam
  • AngeloAngelo Super Moderators Posts: 8,937 moderator
    edited September 9, 2014
    mercphoto wrote: »
    The Peter Wolf patent was invalidated. Why it was ever granted in the first place is a testament to what is wrong with the Patent Office. Sigh...

    Hey Bill, based on your post I went in search of info on this matter but came up short. I'd like to keep the information accurate for our members so can you point me anywhere for verification? thumb.gif
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited September 9, 2014
    Now I'm scratching my head as well Angelo.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited September 9, 2014
    mercphoto wrote: »
    Now I'm scratching my head as well Angelo.

    What you meant to say was the Wolf's patent should have been invalidated. :D

    Sam
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited October 30, 2014
    Sam wrote: »
    Bill,

    To the best of my knowledge Wolf's ridiculous patent is still valid. If it isn't please point me to a source of this information.

    Sam

    I think the Wolf patent, actually, has just been invalidated. I've been following a SportsShooter forum thread on this. Capstone Photography fought this and it appears they might have won.

    https://www.eff.org/files/2014/10/29/capstone_order_granting_motion_for_judgment_on_the_pleadings.pdf

    http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=42292
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 30, 2014
    mercphoto wrote: »
    I think the Wolf patent, actually, has just been invalidated. I've been following a SportsShooter forum thread on this. Capstone Photography fought this and it appears they might have won.

    https://www.eff.org/files/2014/10/29/capstone_order_granting_motion_for_judgment_on_the_pleadings.pdf

    http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=42292

    Thanks Bill,

    What continues to amaze me that it took 25 pages and god knows how long to articulate what anyone with a half a brain figures our within minutes and could easily explain in one or two pages.

    That said I am glad they arrived ot the correct decision.

    Sam
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited October 30, 2014
    Worse, Sam, why it took this long for someone like Capstone Photography to have the guts to fight it in court. Its not like Wolf didn't go after guys with deep pockets before them!
    Sam wrote: »
    Thanks Bill,

    What continues to amaze me that it took 25 pages and god knows how long to articulate what anyone with a half a brain figures our within minutes and could easily explain in one or two pages.

    That said I am glad they arrived ot the correct decision.

    Sam
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 30, 2014
    mercphoto wrote: »
    Worse, Sam, why it took this long for someone like Capstone Photography to have the guts to fight it in court. Its not like Wolf didn't go after guys with deep pockets before them!

    Bill,

    I think I understand the why of it. DPPC (Deep pocket photo co), asks a lawyer :puke1. Lawyer says it will cost you $250K to fight it and with the courts being what they are today no one can predict an outcome based on the facts.

    Second choice is to negotiate a lower licensing agreement and the cost will drop to $10K or so.

    Should DPPC #1 spend $250K to defeat wolfbag it will take them 10 to 20 years to make up the cost of the lawsuit. All the other companies who declined to help will get all the benefit with no risk.

    So there are two good reasons not to go it alone.

    If a number of these DPPC had banded together it would have made more sense but alas they declined.

    Don Quixote (sp) is long dead.

    Sam
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