smugmug vs. pbase - Does anyone use the smugmug "traditional" view?

jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
edited February 17, 2006 in SmugMug Support
I was in an online forum discussing Smugmug and a couple pbase users piped up and said that they thought smugmug looked "messy" and they like the simplicity and clean lines of pbase.

Knowing that most pbase galleries look somewhat like the smugmug "traditional" style, I thought I'd look at smugmug's traditional style (which I don't use) and see how it compares to pbase's default view to see if I could successfully argue with them that smugmug has a style that supports a similar usage pattern as pbase's default style. I was surprised, Smugmug does not have such a style. The Smugmug "traditional" view doesn't seem to measure up.

What pbase does is put a large number of thumbs on the screen. If you want to view a particular image, you click on it and a "screen-size" version of the image opens. Here's an example pbase gallery that works like this: http://www.pbase.com/maxie6/san_francisco. To dismiss the opened large image and return to the thumbs you just click on the image again and you are back in the thumbs. While it requires an extra click to "browse" a large number of images versus the "smugmug" style, it has the advantage that when you express an interest in a particular image, you get to more efficiently see a larger view of the image. You can see a larger version using the smugmug style, but it's not easy to go between thumb and large version in the smugmug style and pbase is very good at that.

The smugmug traditional style, on the other hand, shows a max of 16 thumbs on the screen (pbase shows all of them without paging) and then when you click on a thumb to view a larger version of it, smugmug shows you the original sized version of the image which is way, way, way too large to see anything useful on the screen. And, further, you can't click on the image to get back to the thumbs. You have to hit the back key.

So, I guess I'm wondering if anyone likes the smugmug traditional view as it is today and uses it regularly? Or would smugmug attract more people who are looking for that type of presentation if they enhanced it to work at least as well as pbase's default view.

I'm also open to other ways in Smugmug to solve the pbase-style user's needs - I just haven't found it yet.
--John
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  • rainforest1155rainforest1155 Registered Users Posts: 4,566 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    John,
    that are some interesting thoughts.
    I do use the traditional style almost exclusively especially when browsing through my own galleries. I don't need big pictures to do my maintainance work and it bothers me a lot that photo tools aren't included in the traditional view anymore.
    If you're looking for a style with more thumbnails, give allthumbs a try - it does exactly what the name suggests.
    I like the browsing style pbase offers, but it isn't suitable for a lot of thumbs on one page, because when you click on the image to get back to the thumbs you always find yourself at the beginning of the gallerypage and have to scroll down to where you clicked on the last image. That's the reason I like the traditional of smugmug more, because the thumbs almost fit the screen. Even though I would like to see the number of thumbnails in tradtional to be customized by the user.
    Many people on smugmug are used to click on pictures to get bigger ones, but I also like the navigation style of pbase - what about introducing a 3rd link in the navigation bar back to the corresponding traditional thumb page where the particular photo is located? Therefore one would be in the need to push the back button in the browser - some don't even use it and might get lost in the single-image-view.


    Sebastian
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  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    This is very timely becuase I'm about to make a demo site that will, I hope, appeal to Pbase users. In addition, I know of one hacker who's nearly done with a Pbase-to-SmugMug "backup" utility.

    ear.gif
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    all-thumbs is slightly better, but still sorely lacking vs. pbase
    John,
    that are some interesting thoughts.
    I do use the traditional style almost exclusively especially when browsing through my own galleries. I don't need big pictures to do my maintainance work and it bothers me a lot that photo tools aren't included in the traditional view anymore.
    If you're looking for a style with more thumbnails, give allthumbs a try - it does exactly what the name suggests.
    I like the browsing style pbase offers, but it isn't suitable for a lot of thumbs on one page, because when you click on the image to get back to the thumbs you always find yourself at the beginning of the gallerypage and have to scroll down to where you clicked on the last image. That's the reason I like the traditional of smugmug more, because the thumbs almost fit the screen. Even though I would like to see the number of thumbnails in tradtional to be customized by the user.
    Many people on smugmug are used to click on pictures to get bigger ones, but I also like the navigation style of pbase - what about introducing a 3rd link in the navigation bar back to the corresponding traditional thumb page where the particular photo is located? Therefore one would be in the need to push the back button in the browser - some don't even use it and might get lost in the single-image-view.


    Sebastian

    It looks like All-thumbs is slightly better for pbase users because it puts all the thumbs on one screen with no paging, but it still has pretty brain dead navigation to the larger version. I have no idea why smugmug opens the largest version of the image you have when you click on a thumb from either traditional or all-thumbs. It seems like the odds that that is what a viewer wants are about 2%. More likely, a viewer wants to see a larger version of the image that "fits on the screen".

    It seems like smugmug could get the best of both worlds with this implementation.

    1) All-thumbs view
    2) Click on an image to open the largest version that will fit on the screen.
    3) Allow either the standard next/prev navigation from this view or allow the user to click on the image and have a Javascript function that does "back". Using back will preserve the scroll position from the previous screen. If JavaScript isn't supported, it could just go back to the gallery like pbase does.
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  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    jfriend wrote:
    I have no idea why smugmug opens the largest version of the image you have when you click on a thumb from either traditional or all-thumbs.

    It opens the last size you had viewed, which is stored as a cookie....
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    Andy wrote:
    It opens the last size you had viewed, which is stored as a cookie....


    Check that .. we open it as the size you have checked, in "preferred viewing size"
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    BTW I'm convinced that mostly, it's a matter of folks just "being used to" the pbase interface. Like all things, it takes getting used to SmugMug, too :D
  • bwgbwg Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,119 SmugMug Employee
    edited December 22, 2005
    you can click the album title in the breadcrumb to take you back to the gallery. it's not very intuitive, nor does it stand out, but it's there.

    clicking the image to go back to the gallery would be a welcome addition.

    or you could just install mouse gestures and be even faster :-D
    Pedal faster
  • DavidTODavidTO Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 19,160 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    Andy wrote:
    Check that .. we open it as the size you have checked, in "preferred viewing size"


    That's good to know. I didn't realize I had it set to small. So I would click on the thumb and get small. Click on the small and get medium...click on the medium to get large. Now I just set the friggin' thing to large, and I'm a happy camper!
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  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    jfriend wrote:
    when you click on a thumb to view a larger version of it, smugmug shows you the original sized version of the image which is way, way, way too large to see anything useful on the screen.

    Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :)

    Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time.

    So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things:

    A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason)

    B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size.

    Is that correct? Or am I missing something else?

    Don
  • Mike LaneMike Lane Registered Users Posts: 7,106 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    I think you bring up some good points john (this is a reply to your first message - I haven't gotten any farther). When I'm designing a site for smugmug I have 3 tabs and one extra window open in firefox - bear with me. The first tab is the theme or the cobranding page, the second tab is the main page for the site that I'm doing, the third tab is a gallery that is roughly equivalent to what that person is likely to have on their site (or a gallery on mikelane2.smugmug.com that has every possible field filled). I can switch among all the styles in that third tab so I can make sure I get everything right.

    In the open window I have the gallery where I uploaded all the site image files. I use the traditional view exclusively for that. The reason is because I get all thumbnails (I don't need anything bigger) and I get the file name as a caption (so I can differentiate between a wide background and a medium-wide background and a narrow background for instance). If I'm ever in doubt I find it super easy to click on the thumbnail which brings up the single Image view of the larger image.

    All's well except I have two problems with it. First, as you said, I would rather the traditional view show all the thumbs in a gallery rather than only 16 (I think it's 16 right?). Going back and forth is annoying. And second, there is no easy way (other than the back key) to get from the single image view back to the traditional view. I can go up to the select menu at the top right and that's about it.

    But that's when I'm coding a smugmug design. When I'm viewing a smugmug site I very much prefer the smugmug gallery style except for one thing. When I click on the large image in the smugmug gallery style, I would rather have the single Image view pop up than the javascript pop up window that we've got now. Honestly, I don't much care for the javascript pop-up. It's formatting isn't consistent with the rest of the site and, well, I just freaking hate pop-up windows. It just seems to make so much more sense to go to the single Image view (and yes, I know you can get to it from the other sizes links below the image).

    At any rate, I find the browsing experience MUCH better with the smugmug style than the traditional style or the Pbase style. I think it's way cleaner and more organized than that Pbase style. I'd put that Pbase style to the Pepsi challenge against the smugmug style any day of the week.
    Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.

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  • Mike LaneMike Lane Registered Users Posts: 7,106 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    onethumb wrote:
    Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :)

    Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time.

    So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things:

    A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason)

    B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size.

    Is that correct? Or am I missing something else?

    Don

    If I may:D

    A) All thumbs is great except (IMHO) you don't have a caption / file name, I'd use that instead if it did.

    B) Clicking on the image is unintuitive IMHO (this is a problem in the javascript pop up images too btw) clicking on a navigation button makes more sense to me (i.e. "return to gallery" or "go back"). Then again, it's just one more thing for me to customize rolleyes1.gif
    [EDIT: nevermind, I forgot the album title is a link back to the gallery in question... (don't we have a strikeout font style on dgrin???)]
    Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.

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  • bwgbwg Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,119 SmugMug Employee
    edited December 22, 2005
    Mike Lane wrote:
    ...And second, there is no easy way (other than the back key) to get from the single image view back to the traditional view. I can go up to the select menu at the top right and that's about it.
    in singleimage view, the album title (sorry, #albumTitle for folks like us :D) is clickable

    like i said, it's not very intuitive...this just exemplifies that.
    Pedal faster
  • Mike LaneMike Lane Registered Users Posts: 7,106 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    bigwebguy wrote:
    in singleimage view, the album title (sorry, #albumTitle for folks like us :D) is clickable

    like i said, it's not very intuitive...this just exemplifies that.

    Oh yeah, I forgot about that... It's underlined and everything (if your theme creator or paid designer is smart enough to make sure of it anyhow mwink.gif) So nevermind on that point.
    Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.

    http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    Need pbase solution
    Andy wrote:
    This is very timely becuase I'm about to make a demo site that will, I hope, appeal to Pbase users. In addition, I know of one hacker who's nearly done with a Pbase-to-SmugMug "backup" utility.

    ear.gif
    If you come up with a configuration that will meet or beat the needs of people who like the pbase navigation model, please let me know because when I get into a discussion with a pbase user today who likes that nav model, I can't show them how smugmug satisfies their needs and I'd love to be able to answer their questions.
    --John
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  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    This is not a pbase vs. smugmug UI competition
    Mike Lane wrote:
    At any rate, I find the browsing experience MUCH better with the smugmug style than the traditional style or the Pbase style. I think it's way cleaner and more organized than that Pbase style. I'd put that Pbase style to the Pepsi challenge against the smugmug style any day of the week.
    I do not intend for this thread to become a pbase style vs. smugmug style debate. I started this thread because I'm dealing with people who "like the pbase style". It would be far easier for me to explain to them how their desires can be met on smugmug than it would be for me to convince them to change styles. In fact, if the discussion degenerates into which style is better, I'll just drop out of the conversation because it's just a UI opinion argument at that point and their opinion is what their opinion is - there's not a lot I can do to change it. But, if I could explain or show them how their desires can be met on Smugmug, then they are completely disarmed. They are much more likely to look at the other benefits of smugmug.

    I myself generally prefer the smugmug style, but there are times (particulary when I want to see a lot of full screen images, but not the whole gallery) that the pbase style works better than the smugmug style. With smugmug, I can't find an efficient way to "browse" large images. Look at a group of thumbs, pick one you want to see a large version of, see the large version, then go back to the thumbs. It's a lot of clicks in smugmug, it's easy in pbase.

    OTOH, if you want to see all the large versions in a gallery, smugmug is fine. Just open the first image in large mode and use the nav buttons directly from there, or go to slideshow mode.

    Or, if you want to browse efficiently at the medium size, smugmug is almost as good as it can be. The only thing more I'd want is to allow a user to get rid of the paging model (if they have sufficient bandwidth) and make the thumbs on the left scrollable (independent of the main image) so you don't have to deal with paging, but can freely click on any thumb to see the medium version without new windows opening or paging.
    --John
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  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    Looking for pbase style, not learning smugmug style
    Andy wrote:
    BTW I'm convinced that mostly, it's a matter of folks just "being used to" the pbase interface. Like all things, it takes getting used to SmugMug, too :D

    Getting "used to a UI" may be the case, but there are many online forum discussions where smugmug loses points in the discussion (and probably loses some customers too) because people assert that if you like the pbase UI, smugmug can't do that. This whole thread is NOT about what I want (I don't use a pbase-style UI), it's about what those customers think they want. If you want to be able to disarm this objection and get them to more seriously consider smugmug, we need to be able to tell them and show them that they can have a UI similar to pbase on smugmug. I sounds like all-thumbs is close, but not quite there.

    If I get some time, I'll play with all-thumbs some more and see if I can list what seems to be missing. It's a little hard for me to do because I'm not they guy that wants the pbase style, I'm just the guy trying to explain to the pbase guy how he can have what he wants at smugmug.
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  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    You mean "preferred viewing size" actually does something - I never knew
    onethumb wrote:
    Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :)

    Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time.

    So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things:

    A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason)

    B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size.

    Is that correct? Or am I missing something else?

    Don
    Thanks for responding Don. I'll see if I can find some time to detail more about what pbase users think is missing in smugmug. This is not something I want and it's not something I'm an expert at, so I can't just answer your question fully.

    Sooooo, that's what the "preferred viewing size" setting is for! I must say that is the most unintuitive setting in smugmug. I'm a pretty advanced user, have been on smugmug for 14 months and I never understood what that setting was used for. I would encounter it in places where it didn't do anything and thus I concluded it was worthless. I even hid it with CSS because I thought it was non-useful and confusing. Here's an example of how it's so confusing. If you are in smugmug style and you click on the main image, you get a popup window with the large version of your image in it. That window has the "preferred viewing size" drop-down. If you set it to "original" and then go back to the same smugmug style and then click on the main image, you get the exact same popup window with the large version in it. It didn't do anything. It appears to just be busted. I was so convinced it was busted, I turned it off in my CSS (I just enabled it again so I could experiment with it). Now I find that it does do something, just nothing in the context I usually see it in. It controls what size image opens from traditional or all-thumbs view. This part of the smugmug UI is pretty messed up.

    I'm just reporting my observation from debating smugmug vs. pbase with pbase users. They think smugmug doesn't have some things they think they need. I'd love to be able to tell them that smugmug has the UI they think they want and then the discussion could move to the grounds where smugmug would kick pbase's butt - other useful features, support, site uptime, unlimited storage, printing, pro accounts, etc... But, with what I know about smugmug today, I'm not successful at telling them smugmug has the UI they think they need. I'll pass on more details if or as I understand them.

    Another way to describe the problem is to think of me as a smugmug sales guy. I go out into prospective customers pitching smugmug and I find a set of customers that says they want a pbase-like UI. I tell them about all the other great things smugmug has and they say they want a pbase-like UI. I come to the conclusion that until I can tell them that smugmug has a pbase-like UI, they're not going to listen to anything else I tell them.

    If I was a real sales guy, I'd either give up on that prospective customer or I'd go back to HQ and ask: "Do we have a pbase-like UI? Or, when will we have a pbase-like UI? I can't sell to x, y and z until I can show them we have a pbase-like UI. I tried to convince them our other features and our UI is better, but they just won't listen. How do I convince them we're better?" If this were a real sales guy, HQ would either tell the sales guy to just go call on someone else and give up on that guy or arm him with a better way to sell to him. I'm asking for the latter.
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  • Aaron WilsonAaron Wilson Registered Users Posts: 339 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    I like Smugmug
    I like it better how smugmug does it vs. pbase, thats why I went with smug vs. pbase.
    onethumb wrote:
    Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :)

    Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time.

    So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things:

    A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason)

    B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size.

    Is that correct? Or am I missing something else?

    Don
    www.dipphoto.com
    All feed back is welcomed!!

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  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    jfriend wrote:
    Getting "used to a UI" may be the case, but there are many online forum discussions where smugmug loses points in the discussion (and probably loses some customers too) because people assert that if you like the pbase UI, smugmug can't do that. This whole thread is NOT about what I want (I don't use a pbase-style UI), it's about what those customers think they want. If you want to be able to disarm this objection and get them to more seriously consider smugmug, we need to be able to tell them and show them that they can have a UI similar to pbase on smugmug. I sounds like all-thumbs is close, but not quite there.

    If I get some time, I'll play with all-thumbs some more and see if I can list what seems to be missing. It's a little hard for me to do because I'm not they guy that wants the pbase style, I'm just the guy trying to explain to the pbase guy how he can have what he wants at smugmug.
    I'm hip. Will you help consult as I design this demo site? Thanks thumb.gif
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 22, 2005
    So do I, but that isn't the point here
    I like it better how smugmug does it vs. pbase, thats why I went with smug vs. pbase.

    So do I. The point here is that there are users who like the pbase-style and we're trying to figure out if smugmug can emulate that style so those users will consider smugmug.
    --John
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  • NikonGirlNikonGirl Registered Users Posts: 204 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    I just want to put my two cents in here to add to the discussion.

    On pbase, I didn't know you could click on a large image to go back to thumbnails. Now that I do know that, I really like it. However, I do not like the fact that you go back to the top of the screen.

    I absolutely hate popups. When I am showing people images from my site, I really hate getting the popup window when I click on an image. The window is a not maximized and then you have to close the window to go back. Then you have to repeat the process to open another image. I like the idea of all thumbs, then click once to view full-sized image, then click again to return to the thumbs. That would be wonderful! Especially for me, I can never get slideshow to work well on my computer.

    And finally, I want to add that I really really really don't like the page numbers. I can't even begin to tell you the number of times I have to tell someone looking at my smugmug site that there are more pages. Half the time, they don't even notice those teeny page numbers at the top.
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    Detailed comparison points of traditional pbase vs. smugmug similar options
    onethumb wrote:
    Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :)

    Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time.

    So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things:

    A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason)

    B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size.

    Is that correct? Or am I missing something else?

    Don
    OK, here's some concrete feedback on how smugmug's traditional and all thumbs compare to the default pbase style. I'm not a pbase expert. The pbase gallery I used for comparison was mostly this one. I'm viewing from my laptop with a 1050x1400 screen from a window that's full height and 2/3 width (my typical usage).

    Seven points in all with screen shots for some of them.

    1) The pbase view is a lot more compact (more thumbs visible on my screen without scrolling and less wasted space between thumbs). The pbase gallery I looked at shows four rows of six thumbs (total of 24 thumbs on the screen that are 107x160 in size) when you first open it. In smugmug, traditional shows three rows of four (total of 12 thumbs visible that are 100x150 in size) with lots of wasted space between them. In smugmug, all-thumbs view, it shows six rows of six, but the thumbs are a lot smaller 67x100. So, I'd conclude that the pbase view is a better use of screen real estate with larger thumbs than the smugmug traditional view while the smugmug all thumbs view is even more compact than the pbase view at the sacrifice of smaller thumbs and no captions/filenames. If you want captions/filenames or want larger thumbs with no paging and want an all thumb view, pbase is better.

    Here are what the three different views look like in roughly equal sized windows:
    pBase:
    49300858-L.jpg

    Smugmug traditional:
    49302332-L.jpg

    Smugmug all-thumbs:
    49302324-L.jpg

    2) The pbase thumbnail view includes a caption or filename. The smugmug thumbs include a caption or filename in traditional, but not in all-thumbs.

    3) By default, pbase seems to open the last sized image that you viewed. In this pbase gallery, they have all sizes present (which means they uploaded an image larger than the pbase large size). I was able to see that whatever single image size was the last one I viewed, that's the size it opens the next time I click on a thumb. It is rarer on pbase to view things larger than the screen because most people don't upload images larger than the screen because they have limited disk space and there's no printing service.

    The typical user experience on pbase is that clicking on a thumb opens an images optimized for full screen viewing. Smugmug opens whatever size the viewer last set the "preferred viewing size" drop-down to. This is only controllable by the viewer and can't be set to an intelligent default by the gallery owner.

    4) In pbase there's a nice shortcut way to get back to the thumb view. You just click on the opened image and it takes you back to the thumbs. In smugmug, you have to either click back in the browser or you have to click on the nav link at the top of the screen (both of which also work in pbase). The beauty of clicking on the image is that it's really fast. It doesn't take any significant movement of the mouse and it doesn't take any careful aim of the mouse. Pressing back in the browser is actually the best result because it preserves your scroll position in the thumbs view whereas the other ways of getting back do not. The best shortcut would be making a click on the image do a browser back button (via JavaScript) if you came from a thumbnail view because that would both be quick and preserve your scroll position. Clicking the link in the navigation area above the image is not a desirable result for smugmug because it doesn't even take you to the same page you were on (it always takes you to the first page of the gallery), much less preserve scroll position.

    5) In the single image view, smugmug uses a lot more screen real estate above the image. This makes smugmug require vertical scrolling to view a large portrait oriented image on my laptop whereas I don't have to scroll on pbase. Comparing screen shots in Photoshop, smugmug uses 134 pixels of space above the image and pbase uses only 74 pixels so smugmug uses 60 more pixels at the top of the window for it's housekeeping info (note I have no custom header). This may be one source of the "pbase is cleaner" comments I sometimes see. The main culprit in the smugmug window is the gallery style and color picker which uses 46 pixels all by itself and has always stood out like a sore thumb to me since it sits on a line all by itself. A different presentation of these two options could save all of this 46 pixels. The rest of the difference is because smugmug has an extra line of chrome.

    At 100%, here's the pbase window top (the blue rectangle is the top of the image being viewed):
    49300144-L.jpg

    At 100%, here's the smugmug window top:
    49300149-L.jpg

    You can hopefully see how much more space is used at the top in the smugmug window. This could be another cause of the "pbase is cleaner" comments.

    6) pbase's thumbs view supports paging, but also has an "ALL" choice so you can see all the thumbs. If you look at this gallery, you will see that it starts out with 12 images per page and 16 pages, but it also has an "ALL" link that lets you get all the thumbs without paging.

    7) I can see why people might say that the pbase "single image" view is cleaner. It's just got a lot less stuff on the screen and seems more elegant looking. Here's what they each look like as opened from a thumbnail view. Again, the drop-downs at the top of the smugmug window really detract from the overall look:

    Smugmug:
    49302084-L.jpg

    pBase:


    49303440-L.jpg

    OK, that's all I have time to write tonight. I hope this helped to highlight why some users who like to work from an all-thumbs view might find pbase better. Most of these things seem like they could be changed on smugmug if you wanted to without too much difficulty.
    --John
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  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    Yep
    Andy wrote:
    I'm hip. Will you help consult as I design this demo site? Thanks thumb.gif

    Be happy to.
    --John
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  • bwgbwg Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,119 SmugMug Employee
    edited December 23, 2005
    jfriend wrote:
    5) ...Comparing screen shots in Photoshop, smugmug uses 134 pixels of space above the image and pbase uses only 74 pixels so smugmug uses 60 more pixels at the top of the window for it's housekeeping info (note I have no custom header). ...
    I understand your point, but your choice of comparison shots is a bit unfair given that the smugmug page has a description and the pbase page does not.

    visiting a smugmug page without an album description and not logged in (which would be analagous to your pBase visit) the distance in question is 109px.

    If we're gonna be counting pixels, let's compare apples to apples.
    Pedal faster
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    jfriend wrote:
    OK, here's some concrete feedback on how smugmug's traditional and all thumbs compare to the default pbase style. I'm not a pbase expert. The pbase gallery I used for comparison was mostly this one. I'm viewing from my laptop with a 1050x1400 screen from a window that's full height and 2/3 width (my typical usage).

    Seven points in all with screen shots for some of them.

    1) The pbase view is a lot more compact (more thumbs visible on my screen without scrolling and less wasted space between thumbs). The pbase gallery I looked at shows four rows of six thumbs (total of 24 thumbs on the screen that are 107x160 in size) when you first open it.

    Haven't digested all of your post yet but be aware that pbase users can set the number of thumbs per page - number of columns - and the number of page breaks - so there's no "standard" as far as I can see - folks pretty much decide what they want...

    Here's my pbase site with only 4 thumbs on the page
    49327447-L-0.jpg




    and here it is with a bazillion :)
    49327453-L.jpg
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    Good clarification
    Andy wrote:
    Haven't digested all of your post yet but be aware that pbase users can set the number of thumbs per page - number of columns - and the number of page breaks - so there's no "standard" as far as I can see - folks pretty much decide what they want...
    Thanks for the clarification. I don't have a pbase account and never have so I am just going by what I've seen in pbase galleries and the comments that pbase users have made. I think you just pointed out another advantage for pbase users. They can set the number of thumbs per page to exactly what they want and smugmug users can't.
    --John
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  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    Fair enough
    bigwebguy wrote:
    I understand your point, but your choice of comparison shots is a bit unfair given that the smugmug page has a description and the pbase page does not.

    visiting a smugmug page without an album description and not logged in (which would be analagous to your pBase visit) the distance in question is 109px.

    If we're gonna be counting pixels, let's compare apples to apples.

    Fair enough. I'm not an expert here or trying to rig anything, just trying to illustrate what some people have been expressing a preference for.
    --John
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  • rainforest1155rainforest1155 Registered Users Posts: 4,566 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    jfriend wrote:
    4)[...] In smugmug, you have to either click back in the browser or you have to click on the nav link at the top of the screen (both of which also work in pbase) [...] Clicking the link in the navigation area above the image is not a desirable result for smugmug because it doesn't even take you to the same page you were on (it always takes you to the first page of the gallery), much less preserve scroll position.
    That's exactly the point I tried to make before. There is no real way of getting back from a single image to the thumbnails in traditional view without hitting the back-button in the browser. Clicking the gallery name in the breadcrumb brings you to the first page, not the page you were browsing.

    So how about an additional link directly above the image in the singleimage-navigation ( '<prev - next>') to go back to the exact location. If it's not possible in any other way even with Javascript like John said.

    Thanks,
    Sebastian
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  • Mike LaneMike Lane Registered Users Posts: 7,106 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    3 words. Tables for layouts. When you're talking customizing your site Pbase is going to be a big ridiculous nightmare. There'll be all kinds of things you can't do. I almost barfed when I looked at the source. :puke
    Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.

    http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited December 23, 2005
    jfriend wrote:
    Thanks for responding Don. I'll see if I can find some time to detail more about what pbase users think is missing in smugmug. This is not something I want and it's not something I'm an expert at, so I can't just answer your question fully.

    Sooooo, that's what the "preferred viewing size" setting is for! I must say that is the most unintuitive setting in smugmug. I'm a pretty advanced user, have been on smugmug for 14 months and I never understood what that setting was used for. I would encounter it in places where it didn't do anything and thus I concluded it was worthless. I even hid it with CSS because I thought it was non-useful and confusing. Here's an example of how it's so confusing. If you are in smugmug style and you click on the main image, you get a popup window with the large version of your image in it. That window has the "preferred viewing size" drop-down. If you set it to "original" and then go back to the same smugmug style and then click on the main image, you get the exact same popup window with the large version in it. It didn't do anything. It appears to just be busted. I was so convinced it was busted, I turned it off in my CSS (I just enabled it again so I could experiment with it). Now I find that it does do something, just nothing in the context I usually see it in. It controls what size image opens from traditional or all-thumbs view. This part of the smugmug UI is pretty messed up.

    I'm just reporting my observation from debating smugmug vs. pbase with pbase users. They think smugmug doesn't have some things they think they need. I'd love to be able to tell them that smugmug has the UI they think they want and then the discussion could move to the grounds where smugmug would kick pbase's butt - other useful features, support, site uptime, unlimited storage, printing, pro accounts, etc... But, with what I know about smugmug today, I'm not successful at telling them smugmug has the UI they think they need. I'll pass on more details if or as I understand them.

    Another way to describe the problem is to think of me as a smugmug sales guy. I go out into prospective customers pitching smugmug and I find a set of customers that says they want a pbase-like UI. I tell them about all the other great things smugmug has and they say they want a pbase-like UI. I come to the conclusion that until I can tell them that smugmug has a pbase-like UI, they're not going to listen to anything else I tell them.

    If I was a real sales guy, I'd either give up on that prospective customer or I'd go back to HQ and ask: "Do we have a pbase-like UI? Or, when will we have a pbase-like UI? I can't sell to x, y and z until I can show them we have a pbase-like UI. I tried to convince them our other features and our UI is better, but they just won't listen. How do I convince them we're better?" If this were a real sales guy, HQ would either tell the sales guy to just go call on someone else and give up on that guy or arm him with a better way to sell to him. I'm asking for the latter.

    The interesting thing is that "preferred photo size" is a pbase ripoff feature. :) I don't find it all that useful (since I just set it once and then I'm done), but in the early smugmug days, the PBase crowd was pounding on us to implement it.

    Now, I don't even see it at PBase (I just looked). Maybe it's buried somewhere, but there used to be a way to set which size you wanted shown by default. It worked almost exactly the way ours does because we shamelessly borrowed it.

    I personally find pbase to be clunky and out-dated, interface-wise, so keeping my bias out of the debate is nearly impossible. We built smugmug first and foremost to be a photo sharing site that we enjoyed. The fact that it's become a successful business is wonderful, but it wasn't really the primary goal. We used pbase before starting smugmug, and our frustration with it directly led to many of the things we do differently. (Note that I actually like pbase, what it stands for, and how slug's managed to grow it - I just don't like the interface).

    Our statistics, interviews, and discussions with ex-pbase customers is pretty compelling: almost none of them stick with the traditional or all-thumbs view after using the smugmug styles. There's some "fear of change" issue at first, but quickly the reduced click-fatigue gets to them and they fall in love.

    That happens AFTER the sale, though, not before, so I understand where you're coming from. I'm open to adjusting / enhancing Traditional and/or All Thumbs if I can get a handle on what's going on and not damaging what we already have.

    Having said that, though, I'm not really interested in trying to compete directly with pbase. It's not really our model. I prefer to do all that I can to make our existing customers happy, rather than try to compare ourselves to our competitors. I'm happy for them to exist, thrive, and be successful in areas where we aren't. I think there will always be a type of person who likes pbase over smugmug, and I'm totally cool with that.

    Don
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