Wedding Photography So Much Different?

ScootersbabygirlScootersbabygirl Registered Users Posts: 224 Major grins
edited July 3, 2009 in Weddings
I'm very curious about something - why is it that it seems like wedding photographers are much different than any other type of photographer?

I'll give an example: when I started doing photography I had tons of people who were willing to critique and advise me. They were there to answer my questions in a most happy way and were delighted to give me constructive criticism.

It almost seems like, however, wedding photographers are a different breed. I believed that all photographers were the same, simply trying to get the beauty of what they see with their eyes reflected in a photograph. But lately all I've been seeing is wedding photographers seemingly putting down beginning wedding photographers.

I see a lot of, "if you've never shot a wedding, don't do it!"

I live in a very, very rural area. There is only one "professional" photographer here (by professional I mean that he has a studio). This professional will work with no one new. He has his assistants and will not allow anyone else to be a second shooter.

Which means that, basically, I've been working, learning, and practicing on my own. I have been studying and getting better only thanks to the wonderful photographers who have been kind enough to take time out of their day to help me to learn.

I've been hired to photograph a wedding. The wedding is a month away and I've been doing everything I can to get myself ready for this wedding, as its my first. The bride knows that this is my first wedding session and has confidence in me thanks to the photos she's already seen. I am determined to do my best for this bride, and will do everything possible to make sure that she has the wedding photos she's always dreamed of.

Now that I've been really long winded, I guess what I wanted to ask is why so many wedding photographers seem to be very discouraging of new photographers? Everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?

Comments

  • MA-FOTOMA-FOTO Registered Users Posts: 85 Big grins
    edited June 30, 2009
    It is not so much discouragement but more of a reality check.

    Weddings don't stop. You will go from inside a dimly lighted church w/ no flash allowed to bright mid day sun - there maybe shade from a tree but the sun rays are popping thru giving you hot spots on the brides face.
    So you have to get the 'kiss the bride' - down the isle way - outside church to waiting limo in about 2-4 minutes.

    (This is just one example)
    So... you have to adjust for everything.
    You happen to drop you camera on the way out of the church.
    (you took the neck strap off you neck because you need freedom for movement to get that a 'special' shot.)
    Lens is crushed. What do you do?
    do you have a second with you to help? do you have a backup body....


    So wedding photogs just point out that Murphy can show up and there are no do-overs.

    Just my 2 cents....

    good luck - practice as much as you can.
    If you have some married friends - ask them to model for you.

    Your local Photog is afraid of competition ... that sucks.

    keep going ....

    Later,
    _Mark
    ____________
    Wedding shooters rule!
    (......just 'what' i'm not sure :scratch )
    ~
    Drive 50D ~ 24-70 L ~ 85mm ~ 28mm ~ Tammy 17-50 mm ~ Stuff
    ~
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    Babygirl,

    Can you provide the forum with a list of your equipment, and a web site?

    As to the don't do it......that's a good general statement. Weddings are very special, there are no do overs. You need the experience to address the varied lighting you will encounter, as well as the fast pace. It take awhile to learn how to pose the couple as well as the guests.

    You also need backup equipment. pros normally have darn near two of everything and may even have 3 camera bodies.

    Then you need good post processing skills, color management, knowledge about printing. How about albums.

    You get the idea................

    Post your equipment list and more details and I am sure a few of the wedding photographer here will try and help you.

    Good luck!

    Sam
  • mmmattmmmatt Registered Users Posts: 1,347 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    "Most people who are not wedding photographers think wedding photography is easy. That is why you have so many newbies starting out every day. This has multiplied greatly with the dawn of the digital era. These newbies advertise their super cheap prices which make a real pro's prices look expensive, or they underbid to get a job and cost a person who relies on weddings for his income a job. They screw things up or don't follow through with their commitments which makes wedding photogs all look like a bunch of monkeys, and they eventually decide that they don't enjoy the work and then go back to their real job to make room for the next noob."

    This is the popular opinion I think, even though this is only wholly true with a very small percentage of people entering this business. These things do happen though and I think this is where the animosity comes from. In the case of your "only photographer in your one horse town", he is probably an old-school film guy who shoots digital like a film camera and is threatened by anyone who comes into his turf and especially if they are willing to spend some time learning photoshop... which he most likely believes is the antichrist.

    So, like most people starting in this business I got my start when a friend asked me to shoot their wedding and I learned as much as I could, shot the wedding, made them happy-ish, but I wasn't happy at all with what I delivered. I realized I didn't know nearly as much about photography as I thought. I committed to doing it for a living though and within a few months I moved about an hour away from my daughter to a bigger city where I could work nights as a bartender, go to photography school and started networking. When bartending I met a few local photographers and one agreed to use me as an assistant for a product shoot. We got to be friends and he shoots only a couple wedding a year anymore but brought me along on a couple and taught me about wedding photography, gave me the opportunity to build my portfolio, and next thing you know I do it for a living. I don't get to shoot what I want for as much as I want all the time but I shoot most every week and get paid for it.

    So, if you want respect from a seasoned photographer do more than just say "I'm going to be a photographer!" and consider getting some education, learn the speak, and be willing to go outside of your rural area to do it all. I'm sure there are other ways to do it, but that is how I did it and I know that works. Well... I'm not driving the Ferrari yet, but we'll see!

    Matt
    My Smugmug site

    Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
    Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
    Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
  • Darren Troy CDarren Troy C Registered Users Posts: 1,927 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    And never forget, SBG, there are plenty of "wedding photographers" that "aren't". Look @ every website you can, read until your sick of reading, view every image until your sick of viewing images.....and then do it all again. You'll quickly find a running theme......some have it, some don't, and then there are some that "just don't get it". Personal style plays a heavy role in your final outcome. It absolutely does seem like there are plenty of people willing to give you advice in the arena of wedding photography......that shouldn't have had a ticket to the arena.
  • ScootersbabygirlScootersbabygirl Registered Users Posts: 224 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    I think one thing that I know for sure is that I do not know everything. I don't think you can EVER know everything when it comes to photography, or with anything you learn in life.

    I'm not looking to do photography as my main source of income - I'm a freelance writer and I really enjoy that aspect of my job. I am, however, doing it on the side, not so much for the income but for a way to use my creativity (I stink at landscapes and do much better with people).

    I'm actually a bit afraid to give my list of equipment because I don't have two of everything. My husband and I don't make tons of money and even though I'm planning on getting a second camera body by next year (hopefully sooner with the extra photography work that's coming in), I only have one camera body right now. Am I worried about something happening during the wedding? Absolutely! But unless I get a sudden windfall, unfortunately I can't afford another camera body.

    I'm sure I sound a bit inexperienced to you guys, and I am - and maybe a bit defensive, but only because I think I'm harder on myself than almost anyone else can be. I know that I'm a beginner, I know that I don't know everything, but I do have a thirst to learn.

    As for my website, you can see it at http://www.randileephotography.com - I'm sure I'm opening up myself to a host of criticism here Laughing.gif.

    Thank you to anyone who has answered and who is going to take time out of their day to answer. I appreciate it.
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    Babygirl,

    It sounds like you have the right attitude. I don't think there is another place on the Internet where your going to get as much friendly help as here, but don't worry about being critiqued! Having another set of eyes looking at you work is very beneficial. If you have a hard time having your photos critiqued or flaws pointed out you may want to consider something other than photography.


    Don't be afraid to post your equipment list! I can already figure out it's gona be on the short side, but if you let everyone know what you have they can help with getting the most out of it.

    As an example lets say the big hole in your equipment is a fast lens for the church. This can be talked about and maybe you could beg, borrow, or rent that piece of eqipment.

    See where I am going with all this?

    Sam
  • jeffreaux2jeffreaux2 Registered Users Posts: 4,762 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    Im not taking the time to read the other responses, but I did want to say that...

    -The model that your local wedding pro has presented to you is not indicative of ALL wedding pros. Im sure competition (especially in a smaller town) is something he would rather avoid and that is what is guiding his behavior.

    -I was lucky enough to be introduced to a pro who has made his photography (including wedding work) a lifetime career when I first started. He guided me through ALL of the basics of getting me started. We talked very little about photography, but did talk about gear....and mostly about business. We have never met face to face, he is in Tennessee...I am in Louisiana, but he was a great help and inspiration. A good mentor. He talked me into taking my first wedding.....rather than discouraging me from doing it.

    - I think newbies should definately have an appreciation for what will be required of them as a wedding photographer. It is demanding on many levels, but of course...isn't impossible. Most of the first timers that come to Dgrin are going to shoot the wedding regardless of whether someone tries to discourage them or not....so the best approach is to try to give them the help they need to get it done to the best of their ability.


    My mentor really dumbed it down for me....

    -Do you have a camera?
    -Do you know how to use it?
    -Can you shoot a properly focused and exposed photograph?


    Then...he says....you can shoot a wedding.


    He (obviouslyrolleyes1.gif ) left out much, but I did my first...and since...many more.
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    Babygirl,

    I have a comment or two on your web site. First if your going to offer an option to buy prints I would highly recommend setting prices above your cost. If you don't value your prints why would anyone else?

    It doesn't look like your uploading the full res files? Or are they cropped? I would also recommend enabling right click protection. Right now I can copy the full size image you uploaded.

    Now on your price page. I am unclear with regard to what I as a customer am getting. As an example $300.00 wedding. Are you providing files only? What size? How many? (don't say all!) Prints? Post processing? Will they be able to order from your web site?

    Oh and although the Rebel is an entry level DLSR, properly used and with good glass it can produce very nice images.

    Sam
  • ScootersbabygirlScootersbabygirl Registered Users Posts: 224 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    Sam -the name's Randi :). And thanks.

    The pricing was the hard part for me, and I still have issues. I have satellite internet, so it's almost impossible to upload all of the full res files.

    I also do not have the pro level here, so I can't change the price for prints! That will be changing, however, by the end of the year (it'd better!). Again, it's one of those "need more finances before I can upgrade the pricing" things.

    I do have the XSi and I have the 18-55mm lens that came with my camera (NOT my favorite lens), the 50mm f/1.8, and my telephoto - 55-250mm 5.6. I also have Speedlite 430EX II and a diffuser.

    I will definitely be changing up the wording on the pricing page. Thank you so much for the advice!
  • Scott_QuierScott_Quier Registered Users Posts: 6,524 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    I'm very curious about something - why is it that it seems like wedding photographers are much different than any other type of photographer?

    I'll give an example: when I started doing photography I had tons of people who were willing to critique and advise me. They were there to answer my questions in a most happy way and were delighted to give me constructive criticism.

    It almost seems like, however, wedding photographers are a different breed. I believed that all photographers were the same, simply trying to get the beauty of what they see with their eyes reflected in a photograph. But lately all I've been seeing is wedding photographers seemingly putting down beginning wedding photographers.

    I see a lot of, "if you've never shot a wedding, don't do it!"
    There is a lot of that going around - I've seen it. I may have even contributed to that sense - though most/all my comments have been of the "Be sure you are properly equipped, mentally/equipment/technique - wise, to do the job".

    Wedding photography is a bit different than most other sorts - it happens only once and there's a lot riding on getting the shot the first time and every time. Sports photography can be much the same if you are hired by a particular athlete to get shots of him/her during his/her efforts.
    I live in a very, very rural area. There is only one "professional" photographer here (by professional I mean that he has a studio). This professional will work with no one new. He has his assistants and will not allow anyone else to be a second shooter.

    Which means that, basically, I've been working, learning, and practicing on my own. I have been studying and getting better only thanks to the wonderful photographers who have been kind enough to take time out of their day to help me to learn.
    Like Jeff has already said, this photography may be attempting to protect his marketing turf against "poachers". Even more common is the up-and-coming photographer that hangs with and learns from a seasoned professional only to cut the ties and go into direct competition with that same established professional. In a sparcely populated area, that competition could be the difference between making the mortgage and being kicked out on the street.
    I've been hired to photograph a wedding. The wedding is a month away and I've been doing everything I can to get myself ready for this wedding, as its my first. The bride knows that this is my first wedding session and has confidence in me thanks to the photos she's already seen. I am determined to do my best for this bride, and will do everything possible to make sure that she has the wedding photos she's always dreamed of.

    Now that I've been really long winded, I guess what I wanted to ask is why so many wedding photographers seem to be very discouraging of new photographers? Everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?
    Time for some encouragement:
    • Read the stickies in the "Wedding Photography Resources" - there's lots of wisdom gained through painful experience to be had there ... and it's free!!
    • Study the postings of the various photographers in the Wedding Forum. Decide what you like and think about how you can get similar results. Then expand on that, change it up, make it your own style. I'm not saying that you shouldn't copy other's work - knock yourself out. But, also and in addition make photos that are yours!
    • Practice! Practice in the dark because not all weddings or receptions are going to be well lit. Get to the point where you can make settings changes without taking your eye from the viewfinder.
    • When you have questions (notice I didn't say "if" :D), post them in a new thread and someone will be sure to provide you with answer(s).
    • Think about the day and the how the events of the day will proceed. Try to anticipate everything that could happen and then think about how you will handle it. Know, going in, that the wedding that goes exactly as planned has yet to happen - at least that's been my experience. This attitude and preparation will help you avoid panic - you won't have to think about how to meet the challenge as you'll already have the answer. This will make you look sooooo smart in the eyes of your client(s).
    • If you can, crash a wedding are two between now and your gig. If you can, do it in the church where you clients are going to be getting hitched. This will help you with the above.
    • Finally, if you do all the above, there's no doubt you can make a good showing of yourself.
    I just read you last post - hmmmm I think you may want to investigate renting suitable equipment. Outdoors, the lenses you have may do the job, but probably not indoors.

    Read "Thoughts on photographing a wedding" (link in my siggy) for other info and thoughts.

    Get some backup equipment - what happens if your camera fails half way through the ceremony?
  • KinkajouKinkajou Registered Users Posts: 1,240 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    I'm also a newb in this arena... I responded to a flyer in a coffeeshop looking for a student who wanted to gain experience (read: someone who has a camera and was willing to shoot for cheap or better yet, free). I hemmed and hawed for a long time before deciding to respond because I know that a wedding is a big deal and you really need to get it right.

    Ultimately, I responded because I figured that if they were looking for someone with little to no experience, they could very well end up with total crap (pardon my French). If I did the shots, however, then in the absolute worst case scenario, they would end up with something one step up from total crap. So I sent an email explaining a little about me and a link to my galleries, and the bride responded within an hour and said that my work was the best she'd seen so far and I've got the job. So, I'll be shooting the wedding in October.

    So I guess I have a couple comments here:

    1 - I'm in the same boat as Randi and am already spending all kinds of time looking at wedding galleries and photos posted here, reading, pricing out gear (also on a limited budget, but would like to get one nice lens before the wedding), getting familiar with all the settings I never use but might possibly need in some crazy situation that I don't anticipate, researching researching researching and really wanting to do the best I possibly can... So I understand where she's coming from.

    2 - When the B&G go into this not expecting much and on a very limited budget, is it really so bad for someone in our shoes to use this opportunity to shoot the wedding and gain experience?

    3 - How did most of you get your start? I hear about working with established photogs as the second shooter (hopefully I can work in one or two of those before this wedding), but has anyone else started out by just answering an ad or shooting for a friend and ended up as a professional?

    Thanks and my apologies for the long post :)

    And thanks, Scott, for the encouraging words :)
    Webpage

    Spread the love! Go comment on something!
  • MA-FOTOMA-FOTO Registered Users Posts: 85 Big grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    +1 to all of the post here. very nice. :D

    I was on POTN (forum) and read something that stuck w/ me.

    Yes you can run a wedding business to have business - it is easy to find snap shot photogs who will tell you they are great.....
    Also,wedding photog business can be a side business ... very cool.
    or a full time gig.

    After reading the lasting affects of wedding photography, It brought a new perspective to wedding photography....
    It was this.... (the thought)

    Yes, it is important to get at least good shots of the standard images from a wedding (formals, etc.)
    But weddings are also a time/place that people make an extra effort to attend if invited.

    Start asking seasoned photogs if the bride/groom or mothers every call back after a wedding, say 4-6 months,
    to get pictures because a loved one passed away.

    Maybe they didn't have many pictures or wanted the latest and that was from the wedding.....
    (i never thought of this.) headscratch.gif

    So beside capturing pictures of the day and at particular non-do over moments in time - wedding photographers
    also capture family's and friends together....

    A wedding photog will leave an imprint on the family and friends they photograph......



    Does this persuade me not to do wedding photography - No Way!
    I really enjoy the day, the challenges and even the post processing afterwords.... okay - i'm a little crazy. :crazy

    anyway .... as stated earlier, another perspective. thumb.gif

    Later,
    _Mark
    ____________
    Wedding shooters rule!
    (......just 'what' i'm not sure :scratch )
    ~
    Drive 50D ~ 24-70 L ~ 85mm ~ 28mm ~ Tammy 17-50 mm ~ Stuff
    ~
  • jeffreaux2jeffreaux2 Registered Users Posts: 4,762 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    Kinkajou wrote:
    I'm also a newb in this arena... I responded to a flyer in a coffeeshop looking for a student who wanted to gain experience (read: someone who has a camera and was willing to shoot for cheap or better yet, free). I hemmed and hawed for a long time before deciding to respond because I know that a wedding is a big deal and you really need to get it right.

    Ultimately, I responded because I figured that if they were looking for someone with little to no experience, they could very well end up with total crap (pardon my French). If I did the shots, however, then in the absolute worst case scenario, they would end up with something one step up from total crap. So I sent an email explaining a little about me and a link to my galleries, and the bride responded within an hour and said that my work was the best she'd seen so far and I've got the job. So, I'll be shooting the wedding in October.

    So I guess I have a couple comments here:

    1 - I'm in the same boat as Randi and am already spending all kinds of time looking at wedding galleries and photos posted here, reading, pricing out gear (also on a limited budget, but would like to get one nice lens before the wedding), getting familiar with all the settings I never use but might possibly need in some crazy situation that I don't anticipate, researching researching researching and really wanting to do the best I possibly can... So I understand where she's coming from.

    2 - When the B&G go into this not expecting much and on a very limited budget, is it really so bad for someone in our shoes to use this opportunity to shoot the wedding and gain experience?

    3 - How did most of you get your start? I hear about working with established photogs as the second shooter (hopefully I can work in one or two of those before this wedding), but has anyone else started out by just answering an ad or shooting for a friend and ended up as a professional?

    Thanks and my apologies for the long post :)

    And thanks, Scott, for the encouraging words :)

    I began like this....

    I needed a long lens to photograph a bald eagle...but didn't own one. I called the wife of a co-worker to ask if I could borrow hers. "Sure",she says....but in return she made me promise to help her shoot her close friend's brother's wedding. We went whole hog. E-session, bridals, and the wedding and reception. I kept close tabs on how much time I had invested. She didn't own any fast lenses so she borrowed from me. The photos turned out better than I expected, and I learned a lot.

    Here's one from my first....
    182149167_scnEp-M.jpg

    ...and another
    181448996_uPs9W-M.jpg
    The bald eagle turned out to be an osprey.

    original.jpg


    -I did two other weddings for free. One as a second learning experience, and the other because it sounded like an interesting wedding and I knew if I didnt do it they would have no photos.

    A couple from each of those...
    311251958_4kKFL-M.jpg

    293133411_ezgFu-M.jpg

    219853100_qrnJ7-S-4.jpg

    219854906_WBquf-S-3.jpg

    Then I began charging....

    ...and that first one was for a simple wedding with an older couple. It was the easiest by far that I have covered, and the least amount of work.

    218766954_iTLTg-S.jpg

    Since then I have gradually raised my pricing. One thing I definately learned is that working for free sucks! Due to my full-time job, I unfortunately have to turn away many prospective clients...but it also affords me the option to turn down weddings for which I don't think I am a good fit. After all, the photographer should get something out of the photos as well. I turn away a lot of work.....mostly due to scheduling limitations, but I do manage to do a few per year.

    336138071_5iT3x-M-1.jpg

    ...and just so you know...all of the photos here except this one were captured with a Canon XTi....this with the 50D
    507580756_5uVRo-S-1.jpg

    346139672_siXPc-S-1.jpg

    I enjoy it. Meeting the young couples...and their families...and being a witness as well as a historian of sorts of their beginnings is something that I veiw as a priveledge. For a photographer, a wedding is surely a target rich environment, but for the couple involved it is something infinitely "more" than that. Thus the emphasis on "once in a lifetime" shots....at least for most folks.
  • ScootersbabygirlScootersbabygirl Registered Users Posts: 224 Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    Kinkajou - You and I should talk!! Laughing.gif.

    Jeff - Beautiful shots. Would you mind telling me how you got the great watermark on the photos? I have Photoshop CS4 but I can't seem to figure out how to get really nice watermarks on my photos.

    Again, I greatly appreciate hearing from everyone on this!
  • MelMcClainMelMcClain Registered Users Posts: 52 Big grins
    edited July 3, 2009
    Hang in there. It's hard transitioning from starting out to making this a career. This is still not a full time career for me yet but we (husband and wife team) are working on it slowly. I'd recommend checking out all you can on your camera. I'm a canon girl as well.. have been shooting on a Rebel XT for the majority of my work but have recently moved on to the 50D. There is a fantastic book on Amazon and I'm sure a local library that walks you through all aspects of your camera. http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Digital-Rebel-Guide-Photography/dp/1598633376/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246593381&sr=1-1

    I'd also recommend checking into the PSA (photographic society of america) for some local chapters. Most clubs hold monthly or bi-weekly meetings to learn new techniques, hold contests, and network with other photographers.

    I do agree with you though that when starting out it's amazing how many cold shoulders you get from fellow photographers regardless of what subject you're shooting. We're all in the same profession, hobby, or interest.. what's with the competition. Feel free to email me anytime. I'm happy to help:)
  • MelMcClainMelMcClain Registered Users Posts: 52 Big grins
    edited July 3, 2009
    Sorry for the double posting but I wanted to comment on your website. You've got great potential on capturing the moments in life that people want to cherish! I love the dandilion shot of the little lady. I would again recommend changing your gallery a little bit. Check out the smug mug help forums on here.. they're a big help on setting up your galleries. You still have no right click protection on your galleries.. don't let people steal your hard work. If you need help let me know:)
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