Originally Posted by slpollett Glort...I think that is the best advice I've ever read on this Forum.

+1

I felt weird to post about pics I liked with all the trashing going on; glad I'm not alone

I have no trouble calling them as I seem them be that good or bad. Both will get the boys club mentality coming down on you and make you disliked. Far as I'm concerned, Tough.
Model forums are the most entertaining. Someone posts up the most visually offensive technical nightmare load of crap and people will Post up 50 glowing and over the top comments.... especially if the girl is actually attractive and is prepared to take her clothes off.

Years of being in this game have made me aware that other shooters and clients look at things totally different.
Shooters will look at a brilliant pic and instantly try to find fault to point out with it so as to demonstrate their superior Photographic knowledge. They will over look all the things that make the pic as brilliant as it is and only comment or put time into commenting on the faults no matter how insignificant or if they even contribute to the effect of the pic.

Clients however don't give much of a rats about technicalities, they look at the emotion and mood and feeling that the shot conveys and how it captures the memory of that point in time.
Sure you need to put photographic competence in your work, no question but the people that fuss and stuff around for 30 minutes editing every frame they take have lost before they start IMHO because they don't recognize the soul of the pic or understands how it relates and what it means to their clients. When they get caught up in technicalities they are putting their interests before those of the client. If people think they can't show their work without photo fiddling it, then they ought to go learn how to master the basics of photography properly in the first place.
I laugh when I think of how some of these people would have survived in the days of film when editing was resigned to a few basic things and was very time consuming and costly.

I do the best I can under the circumstances when I shoot weddings because the situations rarely are what you want to achieve photographic perfection or even get half the rules right. I concentrate on getting the emotion and expression of the day and more over, capturing what I have sat down with the B&G and they have told me they like and want. Often they don't know or don't know how to convey it so you have to put the puzzle together like a detective and find out. There have been times when I did think I was going off on the wrong track but I also knew the shots I was getting were killers.
Luckily the B&G have loved them, and told me that's exactly what they wanted. When questioned, what they really wanted was the day captured as it happened in a natural way that also recorded all the quirks and unexpected.
In my neck of the woods, that's about what everyone wants.

If I have a shot with great expression, feeling or mood, I don't even consider whether there is enough detail in the grooms suit or if the brides veil has blown out in the highlights. I couldn't give a damn and neither could the couple and I have yet to have anyone ever mention it to me yet and I'm getting near 1000 weddings under the belt now. I concentrate on what the clients look at, not other photographers whom seem to have a desire to compete in " Mine is bigger than yours" competitions every chance they get.

Others may be able to create successful businesses nitpicking insignificant details and editing the stuffing out of every shot they take, good on them.
My approach has worked for me for 20 odd years now and I work by referral far more than anything else So I'll stick with putting emotive content before technical never noticed perfection.

Wow... I think that there is a cultural difference too and here on DGrin we get photogs from all over the globe together which make these differences very obvious

I think that a wedding photographer must capture the emotions primarily. I think in the US the posing shots are more important than the shots like I quoted above, which was the one I liked best. Either way, technical excellence improves results

Originally Posted by Glort I have no trouble calling them as I seem them be that good or bad. Both will get the boys club mentality coming down on you and make you disliked. Far as I'm concerned, Tough. Model forums are the most entertaining. Someone posts up the most visually offensive technical nightmare load of crap and people will Post up 50 glowing and over the top comments.... especially if the girl is actually attractive and is prepared to take her clothes off. Years of being in this game have made me aware that other shooters and clients look at things totally different. Shooters will look at a brilliant pic and instantly try to find fault to point out with it so as to demonstrate their superior Photographic knowledge. They will over look all the things that make the pic as brilliant as it is and only comment or put time into commenting on the faults no matter how insignificant or if they even contribute to the effect of the pic. Clients however don't give much of a rats about technicalities, they look at the emotion and mood and feeling that the shot conveys and how it captures the memory of that point in time. Sure you need to put photographic competence in your work, no question but the people that fuss and stuff around for 30 minutes editing every frame they take have lost before they start IMHO because they don't recognize the soul of the pic or understands how it relates and what it means to their clients. When they get caught up in technicalities they are putting their interests before those of the client. If people think they can't show their work without photo fiddling it, then they ought to go learn how to master the basics of photography properly in the first place. I laugh when I think of how some of these people would have survived in the days of film when editing was resigned to a few basic things and was very time consuming and costly. I do the best I can under the circumstances when I shoot weddings because the situations rarely are what you want to achieve photographic perfection or even get half the rules right. I concentrate on getting the emotion and expression of the day and more over, capturing what I have sat down with the B&G and they have told me they like and want. Often they don't know or don't know how to convey it so you have to put the puzzle together like a detective and find out. There have been times when I did think I was going off on the wrong track but I also knew the shots I was getting were killers. Luckily the B&G have loved them, and told me that's exactly what they wanted. When questioned, what they really wanted was the day captured as it happened in a natural way that also recorded all the quirks and unexpected. In my neck of the woods, that's about what everyone wants. If I have a shot with great expression, feeling or mood, I don't even consider whether there is enough detail in the grooms suit or if the brides veil has blown out in the highlights. I couldn't give a damn and neither could the couple and I have yet to have anyone ever mention it to me yet and I'm getting near 1000 weddings under the belt now. I concentrate on what the clients look at, not other photographers whom seem to have a desire to compete in " Mine is bigger than yours" competitions every chance they get. Others may be able to create successful businesses nitpicking insignificant details and editing the stuffing out of every shot they take, good on them. My approach has worked for me for 20 odd years now and I work by referral far more than anything else So I'll stick with putting emotive content before technical never noticed perfection.

By the same token, an image can be technically flawless or at least just very well-executed, but if the bride is self-conscious about arm fat or their nose etc, and you don't keep THAT in mind while shooting, ...your best pictures may get shot down as their potential favorites... :-(

=Matt=

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville By the same token, an image can be technically flawless or at least just very well-executed, but if the bride is self-conscious about arm fat or their nose etc, and you don't keep THAT in mind while shooting, ...your best pictures may get shot down as their potential favorites... :-( =Matt=

Absoloutley True.

For me though I have rarely had the time to check arm fat, nose position, double chins etc when I'm capturing the emotion. Some of my best shots have been shot from the hip, literally. Often the clients have loved the fact the shot is crooked, off centre and has things in the background, and they have refused any cropping to straighten or "correct" the obvious flaws.
Not that I would recommend more than one sequence per wedding like this.

IF subject errors were a problem I would try to edit them -if- and only if the bride did want it for her album or a print and commented on it. I sure as hell don't edit every ( any) shot before the B&G say they actually want them in their album. To me that is a waste of time and just plain dumb business.

For the most part, people here tend to accept what they are and unless the shot captures a particularly unflattering and unrealistic angle, wouldn't be overly concerned.

In any case, this would be far different and more substantiated than nitckpicking " Blown Highlights" and lack of detail in black areas that I have seen commented on endlessly with different pics that do manage to capture the emotion, feeling and essence of the day that clients look for rather than perfect technicalities.




Posing and line up shots here are seen as " Must haves" mainly to satisfy the parents and relatives but have very little value or interest on the part of the B&G and people of that generation.
The traditional " Firing Squad " lineup is something you spend literally a minute on and then the B&G can't wait to got take some " Good" pictures. For my clients, 50% of them wouldn't have the firing squad shot in their album at all and those that do would be rare to have a full page shot of it.

The bridal party are without exception embarrassed to even shoot something so done and boring and it's impossible to really get them over the awkwardness they feel. The only way to do that is to tell the groomsmen you want them to throw their partners in the lake behind them and of course then your a long way from the traditional Firing squad pic.

The posed shots people here prefer are the whole bridal party hanging out of a tree or gathered round a Harley or the groomsmen standing in a line with their pants round their ankles showing off their wild coloured boxer shorts. The couple cheek to cheek staring into the camera is another shot that is done from perceived necessity rather than desire. The headline shot they want is something close up of them laughing or sharing a moment.

My first award from our professional photographers association here almost 20 years ago is a close up of a bride biting the grooms ear. They are falling to one side, he's laughing, she's pulling a mean face, They are sitting on stairs so there is no Background to speak of and that's it.
The shot was taken at the end of the day when everything was over and they just wanted to do some shots around the Opera House before walking to their hotel. They had been very still all day when the camera was pointed at them so I had a lot of camera " Breakdown's where I would set up a shot and pretend to be fiddling with the cam on a tripod but actually taking the shots of them while they were relaxed and interacting naturally.

I'd just changed the film on my motorized 6x6 and saw the couple having the friendly " argument" and then the bride bite the grooms ear and them start falling over. I literally fired about 6 shots from the hip with no idea if the camera was focused, what the exposure was or anything else. In those days, shock horror, the PHOTOGRAPHER had to do those things, it wasn't automatic on the camera. I tried to get them to do it again where I did know what I was getting ( couldn't obsessively chimp like so many do now either) you had to trust your skills that you got the shot) but they turned out unexpectedly boring and lacking the feel, emotion and impact of the shot from the hip sequence.

That shot made me " world Famous" in my city for several years at the time, was very recognized and brought me a LOT of work. One of the best shooters here that used to mentor me told me that I only needed one killer shot to launch my career. Was he ever right. I showed him that shot as a 5x5, he stuck his hand out and said " Mate, that's what I'm talking about, now your in the wedding photography game." He was right. Getting work was always so much easier from then on.

Of course that shot also brought me no end of amusement. Within 6 months of me advertising that pic, at least 6 of my " Creative, original, different, outstanding" overpriced and egotistical competitors, some who had seen the pic at the awards and rubbished it, were ripping off the exact same shot and advertising it as well. Before I showed it, no one had ever done anything like it before.
If that wasn't enough, there were no less than 4 direct ripoffs entered in the next years awards competition and several very close related variations.
That was a good insight as to how creative and different and original most shooters actually are in the wedding game here at least.


The internet was in it's pre infancy stage then but I bet if I posed that shot up now, I'd have endless nitpickers pointing out the bleeding obvious like it's not centered, the background isn't level, there are reflections in the grooms glasses and you can't see his eyes perfectly, the dress is too bright, the suit is too black, it's not perfectly focused..... Blah, blah blah..... All true, but all irrelevant to anyone but Photo expert wannabees That will probably never make a good living out of taking pics because their priorities are not in tune with those of their clients.

And 20 years later clients that hadn't even been to school when that pic was taken, come in, point it out, talk about it for minutes and make sure I make a note to get one just like it for them.


Yep, sure is important to have those wedding pics technically perfect even in this day and age!

Glort,

I agree in general with most everything you said. Clients need/wants should always play a big role in the process for most. Thats said, you have been shooting a for a LONG time and I assume techinically you have reached a point where you can do things in your sleep. I don't think the same kind of "as long as your client love it" advice neccessarily holds true for rank ameteurs...it can impeded growth. I do agree that advice like ..the tux has lost some detail, isn't very cionducive to growth but there is sucha thing as good critique that can help someone grow. 2ndly there is set of photographers who do very well and don't cater to the client as much..they shoot what they love to shoot and photogrpahy is really an "art" to them..not just a service. It's take it or leave it with the client.

As I said, I think Photographic COMPETENCE is important.
You can't shoot garbage and then say " Well the client thought the pics were OK" as a justification. That's BS because you must have a professional std product. IF I came across as championing anything other than that, my bad and I agree with your sentiments entirely.

As far as shooters that do their own thing and stuff the client, yeah, I have Known a couple of them. I'd like to say they fell flat on their arse but they didn't. 2 I knew were very successful and made a lot of money. I'm not guiding the Lilly when I say they spent a lot of time in court though. Much of it was unwarranted, plenty of it was.
I think a lot of their trouble was that the clients just booked them without asking questions and then believing they were going to get something neither they asked about or the shooter promised or not. The shooters got booked on their name and uber flashy mag ads and the clients certainly didn't do their bit as to what they were paying ( megabux) for. When they often didn't like the fact half the pics were in a cross processed style or some other funky rendition, they got upset and with a well to do client and a now wealthy and stubborn " artist" court was were it often got sorted.

There are also the others like I seen many of in forums that believe that they cannot possibly allow a client to see an unedited image lest it ruin their reputation and kill their business. They spend inordinate hours retouching every single pic and are so wrapped up in the art, the whole concept of how time is money relates to business completely escapes them.

I read of these people and their often indignant and holier than thou attitude but I really do wonder how long they are able to maintain that before the realities of life set in and they go out of business.

Manufacturing Rolls Royce's and selling them at Chevy prices never has and never will be a viable business model no matter how many shooters like to work that way!

:0)

Originally Posted by Glort Absoloutley True. For me though I have rarely had the time to check arm fat, nose position, double chins etc when I'm capturing the emotion. Some of my best shots have been shot from the hip, literally. Often the clients have loved the fact the shot is crooked, off centre and has things in the background, and they have refused any cropping to straighten or "correct" the obvious flaws. Not that I would recommend more than one sequence per wedding like this. IF subject errors were a problem I would try to edit them -if- and only if the bride did want it for her album or a print and commented on it. I sure as hell don't edit every ( any) shot before the B&G say they actually want them in their album. To me that is a waste of time and just plain dumb business. For the most part, people here tend to accept what they are and unless the shot captures a particularly unflattering and unrealistic angle, wouldn't be overly concerned. In any case, this would be far different and more substantiated than nitckpicking " Blown Highlights" and lack of detail in black areas that I have seen commented on endlessly with different pics that do manage to capture the emotion, feeling and essence of the day that clients look for rather than perfect technicalities. Posing and line up shots here are seen as " Must haves" mainly to satisfy the parents and relatives but have very little value or interest on the part of the B&G and people of that generation. The traditional " Firing Squad " lineup is something you spend literally a minute on and then the B&G can't wait to got take some " Good" pictures. For my clients, 50% of them wouldn't have the firing squad shot in their album at all and those that do would be rare to have a full page shot of it. The bridal party are without exception embarrassed to even shoot something so done and boring and it's impossible to really get them over the awkwardness they feel. The only way to do that is to tell the groomsmen you want them to throw their partners in the lake behind them and of course then your a long way from the traditional Firing squad pic. The posed shots people here prefer are the whole bridal party hanging out of a tree or gathered round a Harley or the groomsmen standing in a line with their pants round their ankles showing off their wild coloured boxer shorts. The couple cheek to cheek staring into the camera is another shot that is done from perceived necessity rather than desire. The headline shot they want is something close up of them laughing or sharing a moment. My first award from our professional photographers association here almost 20 years ago is a close up of a bride biting the grooms ear. They are falling to one side, he's laughing, she's pulling a mean face, They are sitting on stairs so there is no Background to speak of and that's it. The shot was taken at the end of the day when everything was over and they just wanted to do some shots around the Opera House before walking to their hotel. They had been very still all day when the camera was pointed at them so I had a lot of camera " Breakdown's where I would set up a shot and pretend to be fiddling with the cam on a tripod but actually taking the shots of them while they were relaxed and interacting naturally. I'd just changed the film on my motorized 6x6 and saw the couple having the friendly " argument" and then the bride bite the grooms ear and them start falling over. I literally fired about 6 shots from the hip with no idea if the camera was focused, what the exposure was or anything else. In those days, shock horror, the PHOTOGRAPHER had to do those things, it wasn't automatic on the camera. I tried to get them to do it again where I did know what I was getting ( couldn't obsessively chimp like so many do now either) you had to trust your skills that you got the shot) but they turned out unexpectedly boring and lacking the feel, emotion and impact of the shot from the hip sequence. That shot made me " world Famous" in my city for several years at the time, was very recognized and brought me a LOT of work. One of the best shooters here that used to mentor me told me that I only needed one killer shot to launch my career. Was he ever right. I showed him that shot as a 5x5, he stuck his hand out and said " Mate, that's what I'm talking about, now your in the wedding photography game." He was right. Getting work was always so much easier from then on. Of course that shot also brought me no end of amusement. Within 6 months of me advertising that pic, at least 6 of my " Creative, original, different, outstanding" overpriced and egotistical competitors, some who had seen the pic at the awards and rubbished it, were ripping off the exact same shot and advertising it as well. Before I showed it, no one had ever done anything like it before. If that wasn't enough, there were no less than 4 direct ripoffs entered in the next years awards competition and several very close related variations. That was a good insight as to how creative and different and original most shooters actually are in the wedding game here at least. The internet was in it's pre infancy stage then but I bet if I posed that shot up now, I'd have endless nitpickers pointing out the bleeding obvious like it's not centered, the background isn't level, there are reflections in the grooms glasses and you can't see his eyes perfectly, the dress is too bright, the suit is too black, it's not perfectly focused..... Blah, blah blah..... All true, but all irrelevant to anyone but Photo expert wannabees That will probably never make a good living out of taking pics because their priorities are not in tune with those of their clients. And 20 years later clients that hadn't even been to school when that pic was taken, come in, point it out, talk about it for minutes and make sure I make a note to get one just like it for them. Yep, sure is important to have those wedding pics technically perfect even in this day and age!

In my experience dealing with certain clientele, they usually want a combo of BOTH. Great candid moments where you forget about posing and all that stuff, as well as the clean, thought-out, "produced" portraits that look like more than a beautifully timed candid.

=Matt=

Originally Posted by sphynge The most important part is: do NOT only shoot for paid gigs. It is your duty to keep practicing when no one is paying you. In theory, a paid gig is using skills you've ALREADY developed, not learning it on the fly. You wouldn't dream of applying to an engineering job without having touched a computer right? Same goes for photography. You must be so intimate with your camera that you could shoot with your eyes closed. So.... in conclusion: shoot shoot shoot! (Not for pay!). The more you practice and get feedback, the better you'll get :)

This is some of the best advise that you'll get...from anyone, anywhere...second only to going to school...either formally, or under the mentorship of a good pro. And, even then...still take this advice....

For the past 6, I've shot our local MS Bike Ride every year...outdoors, all kinds of light...with fill flash...on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. All for free, donating my images to the cause...after I post process every image...hundreds and hundreds. I treat the participants just like they are paying for their pictures...and why shouldn't I. And, that's what I'll be doing again this September 7-9th.

Have I gotten better, how could I not, after shooting thousands and thousands of free images...and then culling them and post processing.

Here's what I learned

1. How to master fill flash. What works best in a variety of circumstances.

2. How to post process fill flash images in LightRoom.

3. That you get way more keepers if you ask the riders if they want their pictures taken with fellow riders, rather than shooting candids. (Does not include riders out on the ride.)

4. And, most importantly, how to better assertively interact with people...read potential clients.

5. Confidence builder

Just thought I'd add my two cents...hope this helps...

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville In my experience dealing with certain clientele, they usually want a combo of BOTH. Great candid moments where you forget about posing and all that stuff, as well as the clean, thought-out, "produced" portraits that look like more than a beautifully timed candid. =Matt=

Me too...