Photoshop CC Update

RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,893 moderator
edited October 7, 2014 in Finishing School
So it has been about a year since Adobe moved Photoshop to a subscription model. Since I decided to stay with CS5, I haven't been paying any attention to what new features have been released. I was wondering whether you think the updates you have received have been worth the yearly cost. :ear

Comments

  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited October 3, 2014
    Richard, I have been waiting for someone to answer you without avail.

    For myself, I do subscribe to PS CC for $9.99 a month, and I can ( if I wanted to ) add LR5 for the same price, but I already owned LR5, and so I use my own copy of LR5.

    As to the differences I find in PS CC vs PS CS5, I don't have much of an answer I guess. My CS4 and CS5 are on an older computer than my PS CC so I find it difficult to compare them on a day to day, basis. I would say that LR5 is head and shoulders better than previous versions of LR, dramatic improvement, such that I use Photoshop less and less. I still use it for selections and layers, and as a platform to run plug ins like Color Efex and Silver Efex so that I can run them on layers and blend them and mask them if needed. I do not like using plug ins in LR as much due to the lack of layers.

    Sorry I can't answer your question any better than that, I am sure there are better Adobe folks who can be more specific.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 4, 2014
    I am not sure of a feature by feature comparison, but can say with complete confidence and authority that the CC package is well worth the cost...................until it isn't.

    Sam
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited October 4, 2014
    ???
    Can you be bit more specific Sam??
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 5, 2014
    pathfinder wrote: »
    ???
    Can you be bit more specific Sam??

    And here I thought I was succinct.

    OK for the umpteenth time. :D

    If you don't have LR or CS5 or CS6 $10.00 per month is a great bargain.

    If you already have them why bother?

    The cost may be too high when:

    You can't access your program to finish a project because of an internet / Adobe / your connection.

    When the price is raised to a point you think it's not worth it, but may be locked in like a hooked drug addict.

    When you try to find an alternative only to learn you will loose all of your adjustments made with propitiatory tools.

    What happens when LR becomes CC only?

    Image loosing all your adjustments / catalogs / key wording / etc.

    LR won't become CC only you say? Why not? Once the PS CC model shows how profitable it is (and I do believe that has all ready been done) why wouldn't Adobe follow with a LR CC model?

    The unknown of what Adobe (any company really) will do in the future, and what could be a devastating downside for the users.

    You are at their mercy. As long as they are merciful your in good shape. When the evil but probably truthful "what choice do they have" rears it's ugly head you will understand. :cry:cry:cry

    All that said........I may end up being forced into the cloud along with the rest of the heard at some time in the future................sad day to contemplate. :cry

    Sam
  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,893 moderator
    edited October 5, 2014
    Hmm...maybe I wasn't clear enough in my original post. While I agree with most of what Sam wrote regarding subscription vs. perpetual license software, I was really trying to focus on just one aspect of the change: the amount of innovation as a function of cost over time. Questions of proprietary lock-in apart, is Adobe providing as much useful new stuff over time as it did when it had to sell upgrades?
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 5, 2014
    Richard wrote: »
    Hmm...maybe I wasn't clear enough in my original post. While I agree with most of what Sam wrote regarding subscription vs. perpetual license software, I was really trying to focus on just one aspect of the change: the amount of innovation as a function of cost over time. Questions of proprietary lock-in apart, is Adobe providing as much useful new stuff over time as it did when it had to sell upgrades?

    Richard,

    Since I don't have CC I can't respond to your original question, but cost and continued innovation (new tools / features) over time is an unknown. I hope others can let you know what new tools etc have been provided to date, but that isn't any guarantee as to what will happen in the future.

    I hope this good news makes your day. :D

    Sam
  • kdogkdog Administrators Posts: 11,680 moderator
    edited October 5, 2014
    Here's a pretty good matrix on the features added in the various releases since CS3. https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/versions.html

    Richard, I'm certain you will love CC. Download the free trial of PS and LR and try them for a month. I'm guessing you'll be hooked.
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited October 5, 2014
    Sam wrote: »
    And here I thought I was succinct.

    OK for the umpteenth time. :D

    If you don't have LR or CS5 or CS6 $10.00 per month is a great bargain.

    If you already have them why bother?

    The cost may be too high when:

    You can't access your program to finish a project because of an internet / Adobe / your connection.
    Sam...you have several green dots of reliability, and your past posts have shown
    that you have a great deal to contribute, but you are completely wrong here and
    commenting on something that you evidently do not know anything about.

    Internet access has nothing to do with being able to work on a project.
    Photoshop CC 2014 is downloaded on to your computer and you use it just as
    you would if you installed it with a disk. There is no interaction with the Internet
    when starting a project, re-loading a project, or working on a project. Whatever
    you've done on that project is yours and yours forever.

    You must be connected to the Internet at least once a month (and it may be
    longer than that) for Adobe to verify that you have continued to pay your
    monthly access fee. That's all that's done on the Internet except for
    updates to the program, and that was done with owned versions.

    If you discontinue your subscription, CC 2014 is deactivated. The file(s)
    remain on your computer, though. If you have a prior, owned, version of
    Photoshop or even Elements you may open and work on that file or files.

    All that you are denied is the ability to use any tools that were added
    in CC 2014 and are not in your owned version. The layers remain, though.

    In other words, you can crop, make a layer mask, or do anything to the file
    you could have done with CS 5 or 7 or whatever you owned prior to subscribing.

    When the price is raised to a point you think it's not worth it, but may be locked in like a hooked drug addict.

    If you owned a version of Photoshop prior to subscribing, you still own that and
    can still use that. If you don't, you can buy Elements and Elements now has
    damned near everything that the full version has. With the exception of some
    people heavily into graphic arts or submitting CMYK files, it's getting to the point
    where almost all photographers could slide by with Elements and not need
    Photoshop. Elements will open all of your .psd files and has most of the tools.

    When you try to find an alternative only to learn you will loose all of your adjustments made with propitiatory tools.

    No, you don't lose the adjustments made with the new tools introduced with
    CC 2014, but you do lose the ability to change those adjustments with the
    new tools. The file remains intact with prior adjustments if the subscription
    is terminated.

    So far, there isn't a new tool that is so earth-shattering that it would be
    missed. Well, at least with the processing that I do. Most changes are
    simply easier or quicker ways to do what could be done in earlier versions
    of PS.

    What happens when LR becomes CC only?

    Image loosing all your adjustments / catalogs / key wording / etc.

    Same answers. You do not lose the LR program that you now own if
    you subscribe to the CC version. You still own it. All files remain the
    same after unsubscribing and your loss would only be to not re-work
    adjustments using new tools introduced in the CC version.

    Files, adjustments, keywords, etc, remain with you.

    lR won't become CC only you say? Why not? Once the PS CC model shows how profitable it is (and I do believe that has all ready been done) why wouldn't Adobe follow with a LR CC model?

    The unknown of what Adobe (any company really) will do in the future, and what could be a devastating downside for the users.

    You are at their mercy. As long as they are merciful your in good shape. When the evil but probably truthful "what choice do they have" rears it's ugly head you will understand. :cry:cry:cry

    We've already been on that train and paid for our tickets many times over as Adobe
    has introduced new versions with high upgrade fees. You want the new tool? Upgrade.
    And, when we upgraded, we had no guarantee of how long it would be before that
    upgrade was no longer the latest version.

    At least, the upgrade costs might come in smaller increments now.

    Really, Sam, it's disappointing to see someone as knowledgeable as you are not
    having researched the program a little more than you have before posting. You
    don't seem to have a basic grasp of what the CC program is all about. If you
    subscribe, you will not be working with a program on the Internet, and you will
    not give up whatever Adobe program you are now using.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited October 6, 2014
    I looked at the link kdog put up about the different releases of Photoshop, and the improvements from PS CS5 to CC 2014 are numerous. -- https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/versions.html

    Perhaps to me the most significant are Perspective Warp, Content Aware Patch and Content Aware Move, Background Save ( I would not want to be without this any longer - especially with large panos, and software that does crash from time to time... ) and the use of Camera Raw 8 as a filter.

    I thnk the link between LR5 and CC 2014 are better than the link I had with LR and CS5 too.

    No single thing is a deal breaker, but I do really appreciate the background save feature, I only became aware of it, when a large pano I had started ( and not yet saved ), was not lost when Photoshop and my Computer all locked up and had to have the power plug pulled. After rebooting, and re-opening PS CC, there was my pano, patiently waiting to be saved.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,893 moderator
    edited October 6, 2014
    kdog wrote: »
    Here's a pretty good matrix on the features added in the various releases since CS3. https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/versions.html
    Thanks, Joel. That's the sort of information I wanted. thumb.gif
  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,893 moderator
    edited October 6, 2014
    pathfinder wrote: »

    Perhaps to me the most significant are Perspective Warp, Content Aware Patch and Content Aware Move, Background Save ( I would not want to be without this any longer - especially with large panos, and software that does crash from time to time... ) and the use of Camera Raw 8 as a filter.
    Interesting. How does perspective warp differ from the perspective transform adjustments in the lens correction tool? I assume that background save periodically saves your work to disk while you're working. That's long overdue. thumb.gif
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 6, 2014
    Tony,

    Thank you for pointing out that I know nothing about Adobe CC and I am sorry your disappointed that my thoughts on the subject don't mirror your own.

    I do understand where the program and files reside. My comment with regard to not being able to access / use the CC application is based on reports of many who have experienced this issue. There appears to be installation, activation and authentication problems than can pop up causing the subscriber to loose the use of the CC application until the issue is resolved. The length of time to resolve the issue and the importance of the timeline for your project will directly affect how you react to this situation.

    I also understand that if you baked in the adjustments made with the new tools that these adjustments will remain with the image, but as you have said you will not be able to adjust that image or any other to match using the tools that went by by when the cloud leaves you or you leave the cloud.

    You are right that if you owned a previous version of Photoshop you would be able to open and use that.

    As to LR, we don't know what the future holds but it is very conceivable that if LR moves to the cloud that new LR CC catalog may not be compatible with earlier LR versions. You would also loose all the adjustments recorded but not baked into an exported file, negating one of the advantages of LR by reducing the need to save multiple copies of the same file.

    As I have repeatedly said, right now Adobe CC is a great bargain. I don't think anything will happen in the short run that will cause a mass exit, but I can envision a time where there is no backward compatibility and no alternative application to read or use the adjustments made to your files.

    My basic objection to this cloud has remained the same. Lack of control, less choice and being led down the primrose path.

    Even though I know nothing and am disappointing my devoted acolyte (the neighbors black lab) this is my opinion. Always subject to change based on facts.

    Sam
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited October 6, 2014
    Sam wrote: »
    Tony,

    Thank you for pointing out that I know nothing about Adobe CC and I am sorry your disappointed that my thoughts on the subject don't mirror your own. [/QUOTE}

    What your comments do not reflect are the facts, not my opinion. I've been a
    long-time user of Photoshop, and have been using CC 2014 since January. I
    follow several forums on this issue. I have not noticed any comments that
    reflect problems similar to what you have conjectured.

    I do understand where the program and files reside. My comment with regard to not being able to access / use the CC application is based on reports of many who have experienced this issue. There appears to be installation, activation and authentication problems than can pop up causing the subscriber to loose the use of the CC application until the issue is resolved. The length of time to resolve the issue and the importance of the timeline for your project will directly affect how you react to this situation.

    Installation and activation is a one-time thing done before any files are created using the
    program. So, installation and activation problems would not have any effect on files
    adjusted using the CC 2014.

    Authentication is done periodically by Adobe. If there is a problem with authentication
    it would interfere with the user's ability to use CC 2014, but that problem would only
    relate to adjustments using the tools found in CC 2014. The user would be still be
    able to adjust the files using the tools in the user's previous version of Photoshop.

    If the user does not have a previous version, Elements is available for under $100.
    Any user who does not have a previous version, or would not be willing to add
    Elements, is not the type who would be seriously affected by the problem.

    The user would be able to manipulate the files with the user's previous version of
    Photoshop, and any experienced user would be able to do any manipulation
    possible using previously available tools. It might be more difficult, or more time
    consuming, but the user would be no further disadvantaged than if the user had
    not subscribed in the first place.
    I also understand that if you baked in the adjustments made with the new tools that these adjustments will remain with the image, but as you have said you will not be able to adjust that image or any other to match using the tools that went by by when the cloud leaves you or you leave the cloud.

    By "baked in", I have to assume that you mean the file was flattened and the layer(s)
    involving the new tools was merged in and no longer adjustable.

    That is no different than what the non-user experiences with previous versions.
    If you are foolish enough to flatten a file and not save the layers in .psd form,
    you can't change adjustments made with the old tools. You have to start over.

    If the file is saved in .psd form, and that .psd has a layer or layers that was made
    by working with CC 2014 version, that layer can be deleted and the other layers
    will remain accessible. Whatever was done with the new tools can be done in a
    different way using the old tools.
    As to LR, we don't know what the future holds but it is very conceivable that if LR moves to the cloud that new LR CC catalog may not be compatible with earlier LR versions. You would also loose all the adjustments recorded but not baked into an exported file, negating one of the advantages of LR by reducing the need to save multiple copies of the same file.

    What you are describing is where the files are moved to the cloud.
    That has not been Adobe's method. What they have done is moved the
    program used for download to the cloud, but the installed program
    is on the owner's computer. The files remain on the owner's computer.

    The non-compatibility issue of new versions with old versions is something
    we've dealt with all along. I can send you diskettes of Lotus 1-2-3 and
    CorelDraw that worked fine on Windows XP that will not install on Windows 7.
    At some point, every software provider stops supporting old versions in
    order to squeeze some money out of you for the new version.

    But, as in the CC 2014 issue, if you own LR now, and retain that program,
    you would still have that to fall back on. I haven't worked with it, but
    I think even the Elements Organizer retains the keywords if a LR file is
    brought into Elements.

    I don't know how you "bake in" a file in LR. All changes are always
    reversible. If the file is adjusted in PS or a plug-in, it is a separate file.
    If exported as a .jpg (flattened) file, you have the same problem of
    non-reversible changes as you would with any .jpg.
    As I have repeatedly said, right now Adobe CC is a great bargain. I don't think anything will happen in the short run that will cause a mass exit, but I can envision a time where there is no backward compatibility and no alternative application to read or use the adjustments made to your files
    My basic objection to this cloud has remained the same. Lack of control, less choice and being led down the primrose path.

    Sure. There are always dangers out there. That's why we retain our RAW files,
    retain our .psds, use multiple back-up procedures, and do everything we can to
    CYA. You have the same vulnerability when using PS 7 and LR5 or whatever you use.

    What if your PS 7 program or LR5 becomes corrupted and your disk is also corrupted?

    There's no reason you should go the subscription route if you're not comfortable in
    doing so. However, your reasons to avoid the subscription route are not justified
    by the fears you've expressed.
    Even though I know nothing and am disappointing my devoted acolyte (the neighbors black lab) this is my opinion. Always subject to change based on facts.

    I stopped working in LAB mode for the most part. The benefits aren't there
    as much as they used to be.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited October 6, 2014
    I don't use LAB nearly as much a years ago either, but I still wander into it once in a while to spruce up an image, especially one needing a bit more lively color, or to remove something that selects easier in L or a or b.

    For that matter, I use PS a lot less than I did 5 or 10 years ago too.

    I thank LR5 for that.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 6, 2014
    Tony,

    I don't expect you to agree with my viewpoint, but it would be nice if you could hear my viewpoint.

    As to others experiencing problems...............Google is your friend............type in "Adobe CC Problems"

    I have expressed concerns over issues I have read about and others that seem very possible.

    Activation is not a one time thing. You need to do this periodically until the end days.

    I reject your response that if one has a problem with Adobe CC then use your previous version or go by a downgraded version of Elements to get you by. What if one does not have a previous version? What if I reject the idea of needing a back up application?

    Yes, if there is an issue Adobe will help fix it, but again how long and what does that mean to your project or client?

    Again; I KNOW WHERE THE APPLICATION IS AND WHERE THE FILES ARE.

    I know if LR moves to the CC version the application and files do not actually move off your computer.

    I have a vague idea of layers. If your coming out of CC with various layers (file format, psd, tif) I do understand the adjustments are carried through (baked in) but you may or may not be able alter or change the adjustments in a previous version depending on the tools used. If you are trying to match an images set and are using a new CC tool you will not be able to do this with a previous version.

    There is also a disincentive with the CC business model. They get paid the same amount weather or not they produce new features. prior to this in order to generate new revenue they had to make the new release attractive as possible. Now no such pressure exists.

    While I do not consider Adobe to be the evil empire, I can hear some bean counter now saying hey why are we going to keep spending all this money on R&D when it won't increase rexenue?

    Again we aren't going to agree, but do accurately hear what my objections are.

    Sam
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited October 7, 2014
    You win, Sam. Since I don't understand how PS "bakes in" adjustments,
    I'm obviously not qualified here. I've only used PS since V 3.something.

    I do wonder, though, why anyone who wouldn't have some prior version
    of PS on his computer would prefer to lay out big bucks to own a program
    that he could get for $10 a month and discontinue at any time. And, why
    a person who has projects that are so important to get out on deadline
    that he worries about delays would not be interested in a back-up position.

    I don't wonder if Adobe will stop coming out with new tools, though. They
    need new things to pull in the unconvinced and stop the previously
    convinced to unsubscribe and go back to CS7.

    I guess I'll never get my third green dot until I learn how to bake in an
    adjustment.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 7, 2014
    TonyCooper wrote: »
    You win, Sam. Since I don't understand how PS "bakes in" adjustments,
    I'm obviously not qualified here. I've only used PS since V 3.something.

    I do wonder, though, why anyone who wouldn't have some prior version
    of PS on his computer would prefer to lay out big bucks to own a program
    that he could get for $10 a month and discontinue at any time. And, why
    a person who has projects that are so important to get out on deadline
    that he worries about delays would not be interested in a back-up position.

    I don't wonder if Adobe will stop coming out with new tools, though. They
    need new things to pull in the unconvinced and stop the previously
    convinced to unsubscribe and go back to CS7.

    I guess I'll never get my third green dot until I learn how to bake in an
    adjustment.

    Tony,

    If I could remove my "green dots" I would. In fact I have giving you a green dot. :D

    Sorry I used a non technical term (baked in) to describe a permanent change / alteration in a file or layer, and yes I understand the adjustment may or may not be permanent based on the tool used and how it was applied.

    You are right about one thing. No one is going to lay out the money to buy Photoshop and LR with a perpetual license when you can get it for $10.00 per month. That's the taste......the hook comes later.

    I think your wrong that you can discontinue anytime you want. Sure you can stop using it but I think your still responsible to pay for the contract period of one year.

    While many do have a prior version, after X number of years it might become incompatible with the then current CC version.

    Again, I am not saying your wrong to subscribe to the CC version, and I do understand the appeal. I just thing that down the road it will not work out the best for the users.

    Sam
  • TonyCooperTonyCooper Registered Users Posts: 2,276 Major grins
    edited October 7, 2014
    Sam wrote: »
    Tony,

    If I could remove my "green dots" I would. In fact I have giving you a green dot. :D

    Sorry I used a non technical term (baked in) to describe a permanent change / alteration in a file or layer, and yes I understand the adjustment may or may not be permanent based on the tool used and how it was applied.

    Yes, a layer adjusted with a certain tools is a permanent change to that layer,
    but that layer may be deleted and replaced with a layer using that tool differently.

    For example, I'll create a blank layer and use that layer to clone. The advantage is
    that I can use the eraser tool on the blank layer to modify the cloning or adjust
    the opacity of that layer to reduce the signs of cloning. However, sometimes
    I just don't like the effect at all, so I'll delete that layer, create a new blank layer,
    and start over. Nothing has been "baked in".

    The only time "baking in" has any real meaning is when you flatten an image. All
    modifications are locked in. Experienced users will flatten, save-as, and then
    close the .psd without saving it.

    I think your wrong that you can discontinue anytime you want. Sure you can stop using it but I think your still responsible to pay for the contract period of one year.

    Sorta. If you cancel within 30 days of activation, you owe nothing. If you cancel after
    30 days of activation, you owe 50% of the remaining obligation. So, if you cancel after
    60 days you owe 10 x $ 5.00 (rounded).

    But, let's face it. Who is going to actually pay that? If you can provide a reasonable
    basis for cancellation, like those problems you say are Googleable, Adobe will waive the
    balance. They aren't going to send out the Repo man for $50.
    While many do have a prior version, after X number of years it might become incompatible with the then current CC version.

    It doesn't make a difference. It's the file, not the program than needs to be
    compatible. If you have a .psd or .tiff file, any program that will open and allow
    you to modify a .psd or .tiff is all you need.

    The real problem has more to do with the OS and the machine. The way things are
    in the real world we don't use the same machine for too many years. We upgrade.
    If your new machine won't install PS 5.0 from your disk, and you didn't have a way
    to bring PS 5.0 over to the new machine, you don't have that old program to work with.
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
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