Darkroom for Lightroom

AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
edited September 16, 2007 in Finishing School
If you aren't a member of NAPP, I highly recommend it.

In addition to Photoshop User and Layers Magazine, they just released Darkroom:

Click for info.
magazine.jpg

:thumb

Comments

  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited April 6, 2007
    Got mine yesterday:D

    So, should I purchase Lightroom now, in addition to PSCS3??
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • BenA2BenA2 Registered Users Posts: 364 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2007
    pathfinder wrote:
    Got mine yesterday:D

    So, should I purchase Lightroom now, in addition to PSCS3??
    I think you're a Luminous-Landscape follower, so I will paraphrase Micheal Reichman and Jeff Schewe in the conclusion to their Lightroom video tutorial series as they discussed the future of Lightroom and its potential user base:

    If you shoot a lot of pictures to produce a lot of prints or you shoot a lot of pictures to produce a few prints, you will probably find Lightroom a very valuable addition to your workflow. If you shoot a few pictures to produce a few prints, the Photoshop/ACR combo solo is probably still your best choice.

    I have to say I very much agree with that assessment. I have taken to Lightroom very quickly and now couldn't see living without it, because I have to take a bunch of pictures to get a few good keepers. But, I still couldn't live wihtout Photoshop for fine-tuning special images, noise reduction, and sharpenning. Bridge is still a very good tool for browsing, which LR does not do. And, for what it's worth, in addition to purchasing Lightroom, I'm upgrading to CS3 as well (I guess I'm the perfect Adobe sucker, I mean, customer:D)

    Today, there is nothing Lightroom can do that can't be done by Photoshop/ACR 4.0. It's just that LR does it so much more efficiently and smoothly. In the future, however, I think the development of LR will lead to a growing gap between the programs, as we're lead to believe by Adobe. I could also see Adobe dropping ACR, which is essentially the LR Devleop Module now. Plus, the 3rd-party app development for LR promisses to add the features still needed in PS. So, while I'm willing to maintain the expense of both programs now, I'm hopefull that in a few years I can go solely with LR.
  • mrcoonsmrcoons Registered Users Posts: 653 Major grins
    edited April 7, 2007
    Are there "Membership Discount Code" around somewhere one can pick up?
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited April 7, 2007
    I would love to join it, can't!!! For obvious reasons.

    I am with Pathfinder in trying to decide if I need both Lightroom and CS3. I have preordered CS3.

    I can squeeze the money right now this moment for LIghtroom. And the 199.00 is only good for a few more weeks. It would allow cheaper upgrades.

    I put the trial one on my computer, liked what I saw, but could not figure out how to use it, the books were not out yet (I can get one, though), but I took it off my computer.

    So, now, I am thinking I could be very sorry if I don't buy the LIghtroom, too. But I don't know.

    I am not a pro.....

    HOwever, I shoot about 600 pictures everytime I go out with a few exceptions. Even if it is just to shoot a baptism, I shoot a few of those and then stop off on the way home and fill up every CF card I have with birds, landscapes or whatever.

    So, I have many external harddrives on which I put this stuff. My "work flow" sucks as far as efficiency of sorting photos. I pick one and work it up. However, since I might find another one pleasing months down the road.............well, I have become a collector of "possible" never to be used or missed RAW files.

    What I am hearing is that Lightroom might help with that.

    Then I read the pre release thread of CS3 when it was in Beta, reread it last night, and it did not seem that people were going to be buying both.

    I have been embarrassed to ask. But I am asking now?
    (I have not determined the exact question, but just who is doing what and why.)

    If I am ever going to go with Lightroom I would want to do it now and be eligible for upgrades at a reduced price.

    But my money is tight as always, a little looser the last month, but that will change. I keep telling myself that the 199.00 price of Lightroom is not going to determine my financial survival.

    However, has anyone thought that joining that organization is half the cost of lightroom right there, and that is per year.

    ginger (I hope I made some sense, and get some feedback, as this is the weekend for me to make a decision.)
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited April 7, 2007
    You know, I can't get anything out of a video, as I can't hear any of it. So, I can't learn that way or make much out of what I am seeing except to say "WOW".

    I have only PMd one person on this subject.

    If someone could just take the time........................

    My question might be

    "Do you plan to have both Lightroom and CS3 on your computer."

    That would be a yes or a no.

    Nothing else, just that!!!

    ginger

    (Plus, if someone answered me and wanted to mention the organization and the magazines, it would put this thread back on track.)
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited April 7, 2007
    ginger_55 wrote:
    "Do you plan to have both Lightroom and CS3 on your computer."

    That would be a yes or a no.

    Nothing else, just that!!!

    Yes.
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited April 7, 2007
    CS3 for me, not Lightroom
    ginger_55 wrote:
    You know, I can't get anything out of a video, as I can't hear any of it. So, I can't learn that way or make much out of what I am seeing except to say "WOW".

    I have only PMd one person on this subject.

    If someone could just take the time........................

    My question might be

    "Do you plan to have both Lightroom and CS3 on your computer."

    That would be a yes or a no.

    Nothing else, just that!!!

    ginger

    (Plus, if someone answered me and wanted to mention the organization and the magazines, it would put this thread back on track.)
    No. I'm not going to have both.

    I own CS2 and use it extensively. I have installed and played with the CS3 beta though Bridge had way too many bugs to be useful in it's beta form. I played with the Lightroom beta and just last week I installed the Lightroom trial and actually processed 600 JPEG images that someone else shot for a school event in Lightroom (I shoot RAW so I processed mine in CS2/Bridge).

    So, here's where I am in my thinking. I've pre-ordered CS3 as I know I want that. So, the question for me is do I also need Lightroom?

    It appears to me that CS3 has all the RAW/JPEG non-destructive processing tools that Lightroom has so the Develop module in Lightroom doesn't add anythning that CS3 doesn't already have. Because I've been using Bridge for awhile, I'm definitely more productive in Bridge than I am in Lightroom for processing lots of photos. Lightroom isn't lacking functionality in this area, it just does things differently so it's a new set of features/commands to learn (as one example, the way you select an image that has settings you want to propogate to a bunch of other images is just different in Lightroom).

    For the Library module in Lightroom, there is a lot more functionality in Lightroom than there is in Bridge/CS3. You can do keyword-based views on your whole Lightroom library regardless of the directory location of your files. Bridge/CS3 allows you to do similar things only on one directory at a time. If you want to go cross directory, then Bridge requires a brute-force, non-indexed search that isn't all that fast. Bridge can find the images you want across directories, but it's not fast at it. As a disadvantage, Lightroom requires you to "import" your photos into Lightroom so it can index them and never change their directory location outside of Lightroom (because it loses track of the images when you do that).

    After growing up with Elements and it's Organizer that also required you to import your images and never move them outside of Elements, I've grown to dislike that. Something like that is required if you want great indexing of your images, but I really, really appreciate the organizational simplicity of Bridge and the ability to rearrange my images at any time in the file system without horking things up in my photo program. For that simplicity, I'll take the disadvantage of it being more of a pain to do cross directory searches. I've worked around this issue before in Bridge and it isn't a regular need of mine so I'm OK with that.

    On the other hand, this is a personal style/workflow thing. If you really want/need a powerful, cross directory organizational tool (e.g. DAM program) and you are willing to modify your workflow to make it so the tool works well (e.g. never move your photos around outside Lightroom), then Lightroom has real functionality here that Bridge/CS3 doesn't.

    As for the other modules in Lightroom, I've long thought it was absolutely ludicrous that CSx was so horrible at photographic printing. It can print a single image just fine, but it is massively outclassed when printing multiple images by both Elements and Lightroom. Why they don't think photographers using CSx need to print contacts sheets and multiple 4x6s on a page, I don't know. CSx sucks for multiple image printing. I very much like Lightroom's functionality here, but because it requires you to adopt it's organizer in order to use it, I think I'm going to buy QImage and use it for multiple image printing along-side CS3. The downside is that I have to generate JPEGs before I can print them in QImage whereas Lightroom can print straight from the non-destructively modified RAW/JPEG images without having to generate final JPEGs. Still not ideal, but I don't print multiple images per page that often so I can deal with it. Someday, CSx needs to get decent printing facilities for photographers. Jeeze.

    The slideshow module in Lightroom is cute. I don't do slideshows on my original source computer that often and when I do, the slideshow presentation in Bridge works fine. My finished slideshows are more likely to be on an HDTV and neither Bridge nor Lightroom really helps much there.

    So, for me (and I realize there are other needs/opinions on this), it comes down to this. If you need great cross directory DAM capabilities and you are willing to submit to the "import all images into Lightroom and never move them again outside of Lightroom" requirement that it takes to make their indexing work, then Lightroom has some very useful functionality. As a side benefit, you will also pick up some nice photographic printing features and slideshow features. You can then use Lightroom for your organizer and your non-destructive image processing and use CS3 for pixel-level editing.

    If you don't spend a lot of time doing cross directory image finding, sorting, etc... then Bridge/CS3 has all the image editing power of Lightroom and it maintains a simpler directory model for storing your images. Also, if you're already productive in Bridge for editing large quantities of images, you won't have to learn anythning new as Bridge/CS3 just adds a few more tricks to the same pony you already know.

    I'm going to pass on Lightroom myself. BTW, I like Lightroom quite a bit and I would actually recommend that a lot of people who are serious about their photography, but not experts in Photoshop start with Lightroom instead of start with Elements because it's so much easier to be productive when processing lots of photos in Lightroom compared to Elements.
    --John
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  • colourboxcolourbox Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited April 7, 2007
    The Lightroom decision on a budget can come down to one question:

    How do you feel about Adobe Camera Raw and Adobe Bridge?

    The more you are frustrated by that combo, the more you might like Lightroom, because it smooths over that workflow.

    On the other hand, I've read posts from people who are so comfortable with the ACR/Bridge workflow, even with large numbers of images, that they think the idea of paying $200 more for Lightroom is expensive and ridiculous.

    If you don't mind ACR/Bridge CS3 and you don't get Lightroom, you won't miss much in the way of actual features. Yes, a couple will be missing, but depending on how you answer the question above, those missing features might or might not be worth two hundred dollars to you.
  • artieartie Registered Users Posts: 10 Big grins
    edited April 8, 2007
    mrcoons wrote:
    Are there "Membership Discount Code" around somewhere one can pick up?
    It's free to anyone who purchased Raw Shooter Premium. I'm thrilled because I bought RSP when it was still in its infancy for $50.

    I cling to that tiny bit of overall savings because it's the only one in this deep money pit called digital photography that I can lay claim to. :D

    Rich
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited April 11, 2007
    Having used LR since beta 1 and now running the full V1.0 I can't imagine a better way to sort and process RAW image files. I can now quickly sort a 4 gb card down to the best 20 images in about 20 minutes. More importantly I can then develope those 20 images to find the best 3 or 4 in under 30 minutes. That get's me from 4gb down to a handful of images that I then bring into photoshop and really go to work on. I've found that I find myself being much more ruthless in my sorting and deleteing of the meh images and far less likely to waste time working on mediocre images in photoshop. I also find the exposure and curve controls in LR to be absolutely brilliant.

    Regarding "Darkroom", great stuff in there. I've already learned several time savers from the first issue (great article on flagging).
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited April 11, 2007
    Truth, how did you learn how to use it? Thru Darkroom magazine, videos........or was it a genetic thing.

    ginger
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited April 11, 2007
    ginger_55 wrote:
    Truth, how did you learn how to use it? Thru Darkroom magazine, videos........or was it a genetic thing.

    ginger

    If you can use photoshop you can use lightroom. I started using the beta versions with no guidance at all. It's pretty intuitive software. The basics are about as easy as one could imagine. What I'm learning now is how to use it to it's fullest potential and with greater speed. "Darkroom" seems like it'll be a great resource and the videos online are all excellent starting points. For $199 I really think it's a steal for what will become the benchmark RAW developing platform.
  • cmasoncmason Registered Users Posts: 2,506 Major grins
    edited April 11, 2007
    ginger_55 wrote:
    Truth, how did you learn how to use it? Thru Darkroom magazine, videos........or was it a genetic thing.

    ginger

    Ginger, download the free 30 day trial from Adobe. It is very intuative, and there is a good user guide as well, though it isnt that easy to find. Lightroom is one of those apps that you have to use, before you 'get it'.
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited April 11, 2007
    I downloaded it, had it on this machine. I couldn't figure out how to save my photos.

    I couldn't move them to CS3, as .............well, I maybe could have moved it to the beta, but was not using it because of the "bugs".

    Then it still could have sat on my computer, but the next time I went to upload photos, they were going to go into Lightroom automatically. I remembered somewhere on dGrin someone had trouble getting his DNG files out of lightroom after it expired..........or something like that.

    I didn't want to lose the photos I was trying to upload. And I wanted to "use" the photos I had worked on, to the degree that I had.

    My intuition just was not working at all.

    In order to safely upload my photos to my external hard drive as usual, I just took it off and figured I would deal with it later.

    I thought I would buy it, or I wouldn't. Now I don't know if Adobe would let me retry that trial that I had started, smile.
    And my intuition sucks!

    ginger (and at that time Amazon had some Lightroom books available.......now they don't)

    I was all over the web last night trying to pick up hints and info on how to run it. The vocabulary, well, I know french better than that, and my french is quite limitied.
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 12, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    If you aren't a member of NAPP, I highly recommend it.
    In addition to Photoshop User and Layers Magazine, they just released Darkroom:
    Click for info.
    thumb.gif

    While I value PS and NAPP membership rather highly, its latest addition (LR/DR) is not of interest for me at all. John Friend said it well enough: just another way to do what ACR/Bridge bundle has been already doing. Plus, the dreaded import...eek7.gif

    If anybody is interested in my copies of the DR for the s/h price only - PM/email me (I already got the first issue:-), I'd be glad to put them to a good use rather than let them die unopened, and the Postal Annex is right on my way to work:-)
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited April 13, 2007
    Just for the sake of full disclosure. I have ordered Scott Kelby's book. I prefer to wait. I actually don't prefer to wait, but if I were to buy only one book it would be Kelby's.

    Amazon says that it comes out on the 16th, I think it is.

    I can follow Kelby when I can't follow anyone else. Then I slowly accumulate other authors.

    But that is why I have not ordered any of the other authors yet. And, the other ones were not out when I originally put lightroom on my computer.

    I have Kelby's lightroom on order now, and I have Kelby's PS3 on order, too.
    I do have a small book of info that I can use for PS3 until Kelby's book comes on that.
    I printed out the info from Adobe yesterday......many pages of it. I can't read it w/o a magnifying glass.

    Personally, I do not understand the method behind Kelby's timing on this stuff. But I do not have 26.00 or so dollars to throw away right now.

    ginger
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • BenA2BenA2 Registered Users Posts: 364 Major grins
    edited April 13, 2007
    Ginger,

    Adobe has just released a new Lightroom Getting Started Guide. It's free and you can download it from here.

    I haven't looked at it, but it's something that might be able to get you started in Lightroom before you get Kelby's book.
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Registered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited April 13, 2007
    BenA2 wrote:
    Ginger,

    Adobe has just released a new Lightroom Getting Started Guide. It's free and you can download it from here.

    I haven't looked at it, but it's something that might be able to get you started in Lightroom before you get Kelby's book.


    Thanks for the info. I dowloaded that yesterday, printed it out and have to use a magnifying glass to read it, smile, seriously! I can't read the page numbers w/o the magnifying glass.

    We are almost out of ink at this point.

    As a warning................Barnes and Noble's site says that Kelby's Lightroom book ships in 24 hrs. So, I ordered it from them. Upon careful reading of my e-mail receipt, I discovered that "24 hrs" had suddenly become April 16th, just like Amazon. I canceled the Barnes and Noble order and am sticking with Amazon.

    ginger (thanks for the suggestion, in a pinch there is always the magnifying glass)
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • redhawkredhawk Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited September 15, 2007
    Is Darkroom Magazine still being published?
    Andy wrote:
    If you aren't a member of NAPP, I highly recommend it.

    In addition to Photoshop User and Layers Magazine, they just released Darkroom:

    Is Darkroom Magazine still being published? The old URL, http://www.darkroommagazine.com/, now redirects to http://www.photoshopuser.com/lightroom/ and Darkroom is only mentioned in passing on NAPP's home page (not on the magazine page). The Google hits are all from January when the mag was launched.
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  • dmmattixdmmattix Registered Users Posts: 341 Major grins
    edited September 15, 2007
    Nope, folded into Photoshop User mag
    redhawk wrote:
    Is Darkroom Magazine still being published? The old URL, http://www.darkroommagazine.com/, now redirects to http://www.photoshopuser.com/lightroom/ and Darkroom is only mentioned in passing on NAPP's home page (not on the magazine page). The Google hits are all from January when the mag was launched.

    Kelby mentioned this in his editorial in the July/August 2007. It was stated as being due to popular demand but who knows. It is more confusing because in that same issue they have an article on workflow but use bridge instead of Lightroom but do not have a similar article using Lightroom. I seem to recall that they advertised covering workflow with Lightroom so I was somewhat disappointed when the workflow article just used Bridge...

    Regards,

    Mike
    _________________________________________________________

    Mike Mattix
    Tulsa, OK

    "There are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth" - Unknown
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited September 15, 2007
    dmmattix wrote:
    I seem to recall that they advertised covering workflow with Lightroom so I was somewhat disappointed when the workflow article just used Bridge...

    Regards,

    Mike
    Indeed they are, and quite thoroughly as well!
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 16, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    If you aren't a member of NAPP, I highly recommend it.

    In addition to Photoshop User and Layers Magazine, they just released Darkroom:

    Click for info.
    magazine.jpg

    thumb.gif

    They killed Darkroom magazine, after one edition (I don't take full responsibility being authored there). Its now rolled into the main NAPP mag.

    The Luminous Landscape videos are great, well worth the tiny price for such content.

    As for LR, well I'd rather have it and Photoshop CS than lose it in exchange for CS3. I do at least 85-90% of all work now there, its faster and in so many respects, more powerful (if you shoot Raw). Give up Lightroom? When you pry my cold dead hands from the box!
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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