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A halt in production
black mamba
Registered Users Posts: 8,321 Major grins
The pirating of many of our forum's images to another site is tremendously disturbing to me.....as I'm sure it is to most of you who are affected. Until this issue is resolved, I will no longer be posting pictures to the forum.
I am in no way familiar with what, if any, technology can be employed to stop this illegal thievery. I can assure you, though, that Smugmug had best address this issue promptly and effectively. Google, as well, had best jump on this thing as quickly as possible.
Service providers, such as those we have in this case, can, in many cases, be considered culpable and held accountable when they fail to take appropriate action after being notified that illegal activities are occurring in their systems.
I have considered our forum to be almost a household member for a long time. To cease activity here is not something I want to do. There are, however, bigger players involved here who can make stronger protective moves than we individuals can. I urge them to proceed post haste in addressing our problem.
Tom
I am in no way familiar with what, if any, technology can be employed to stop this illegal thievery. I can assure you, though, that Smugmug had best address this issue promptly and effectively. Google, as well, had best jump on this thing as quickly as possible.
Service providers, such as those we have in this case, can, in many cases, be considered culpable and held accountable when they fail to take appropriate action after being notified that illegal activities are occurring in their systems.
I have considered our forum to be almost a household member for a long time. To cease activity here is not something I want to do. There are, however, bigger players involved here who can make stronger protective moves than we individuals can. I urge them to proceed post haste in addressing our problem.
Tom
I always wanted to lie naked on a bearskin rug in front of a fireplace. Cracker Barrel didn't take kindly to it.
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I also will not post anymore images to Dgrin until this issue is resolved, as this is the well from which our images are being stolen.
I am in the process of filing a copyright complaint through Google, but I feel SmugMug should jump on this with all their muscle. I believe this situation may have a cascading affect on participation, and the next logical step.
I've been here a good while, but this situation is intolerable.
I do sincerely hope SmugMug opens their eyes and tries to get out in front of this issue.
Anything here look familiar?
I'll give you a clue ---> Another site that steals all our images posted here :splat
http://simplenewz dot com/2014-10-07/Mainstream/feed/16427
Copy and past this link, but delete the word "dot" and the spaces, replace them with "."
Don't want to post a hotlink here, as it helps the site.
This is VERY disconcerting!
Let's try to keep this in perspective. If you stop posting on Dgrin, the bad guys win and we lose a valued source of feedback, entertainment and social contact.
This is the third time I remember seeing systematic copying of Dgrin. The first was a crude, apparently Arabic site, and complaints to the ISP had it taken down in about three weeks. The second was another Blogspot site. That one took a bit longer--Google moves slowly, but eventually it did respond. The latest incarnation appears to be the same douchebag that we saw a few months ago.
Some things to keep in mind:
- The current blog is not selling your pics. It is just attempting to defraud Google ad-sense. It pisses us off, but it's probably not really affecting your business. The pics that appear on it are the same as the ones you post here, so the same size, quality and watermark protections apply.
- Legally, there is probably not much SmugMug can do. The copyright belongs to the poster, which is what we want, so DMCA claims have to come from the poster. If you want SmugMug to go up against Google in court, you better be prepared to pay a lot more for your subscription next year.
- Technically, I'm not sure that there are any good solutions. What's out there is out there for all to see and copy. SmugMug might be able to implement a whitelist for external sites, but that would not be a trivial undertaking, and it would depend on third-party sites including referral headers, which is not mandatory. It would also force customers to maintain the lists. I think they have better things to do.
- It's not as fast or convenient as you or I would like, but Google does provide a way to assert copyright claims. What I find frustrating is that there doesn't seem to be a way to report the systematic copying we're seeing. Nevertheless, we did manage to destroy digitalgrinphotography.blogspot.com last year, and I don't doubt that eventually we will do the same again.
Look, I hate these dudes as much as you do, but I'm pretty sure that the only hits this blog gets are from their own bots committing click-fraud. I don't think Google likes that much, and eventually they'll shut it down. We can help by filing DMCA complaints daily, which is what I've been doing.In the meantime, please don't stop posting.
I have also notified several advertisers on that site that I have done quite a bit of business with that I will cease doing business with them until they stop supporting this pirate.
Jack
(My real name is John but Jack'll do)
It just appears that every thread on Dgrin is put in their blog-spot. So they are not stealing images, but they are essentially stealing Dgrin. Even the thread complaining about them are showing up on their blog-spot. So it is just a mirror site......a very bad and ugly mirror.....but it seems to just be a copy of Dgrin.
So I would be shocked if there is no recourse for Dgirn......
I googled "visionxmobile blogspot" and clicked on first link that came up.....and the very first post on there is this thread. Strange.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
It's fun to see some of the Photoshopped images people are posting, but honestly it is kind of getting lame having to sift through the joke threads to get to the real stuff. And I doubt the people copying the content even see what gets posted... it's probably all automatic using some type of script or something. So it's not like anyone is seeing the images meant for them.
I understand it isn't Smugmug's responsibility to file the Takedown Requests, but it would be nice for someone to research this issue to see if there is any way on Smugmug's end to prevent this type of automated content theft from occurring. Sadly I doubt there is a way to do this, but if someone at Smugmug could reach out to Google in any way to get their take on it...
Otherwise, it will be a constant bother here and I imagine people will start posting less and less often. Being a photography forum, it's difficult to ignore your content being copied over... with or without a watermark.
www.motoception.com
Richard, no disrespect to you, but to me that's completely backward thinking, unless your SmugMug.
This theif "wins" if we're goofy enough to keep posting our images for him to steal!
Where are the images being mined from?
- Dgrin -
SmugMug obviously won't lift a finger to help stop the theft of our (their patrons) images, simply hoping that we will do all of the work to save their forum!
Yes, that also sounds backwards to me.
And your reference that if SmugMug were to bother to get involved, that we would have to pay heavily for that. Sounds like they would get involved if there were (more) money in it for them. That sounds bad on several levels. You might have a short memory. Do you not remember the HUGE rate hike not to long ago? Was that not enough money to try and keep people from stealing images from THEIR forum?
Also, there are now (2) two thief sites (that we know of) that are mining Dgrin.
Twice the theft. Twice the effort on our part to file copyright theft.
And remember; as you stated, we should file one image complaint at a time. A lot of my, and others post contained several images. And we're talking about all post for at least (2) two years!!! Now duplicate that effort times two!
Who in the world even knows who's hosting the other theft site that I listed above?
How do we even file copyright theft to for it?
No, I see a very large issue here...
I agree that theft is a problem on the Internet, but some of the issues are legally complicated. If it were easy for SmugMug to do something, I'm sure they would. It's not clear that they have any legal standing, since posters own the copyright. Also remember that not all the stuff being hotlinked here is hosted by SmugMug.
I looked at the other site you mentioned. They seem to a little more upfront about what they're doing, which resembles the old Internet Wayback Machine. They are making an archive of RSS feeds, including Dgrin and many, many others. However, they do provide instructions for Webmasters to exclude their sites, if they so choose. Don't know whether they really mean it or not. Unlike ABC, they are not concealing the source, but like ABC, they are running ads.
Just out of curiosity, I looked at the profile of the "person" responsible for ABC, username "Muslim." He lists 15 other blogs in several different languages, including Spanish, French and Arabic. I looked at a couple of them, and they all appear to be content lifted in bulk from legitimate forums and plastered with ads. I don't think he could care less whether we are posting photographic masterpieces or recipes for brownies--it's all filler to him.
This is just a low-rent scammer. What pisses me off most is that Google doesn't seem to provide any means of reporting the systematic abuse, although I do believe they will eventually respond to the individual takedown notices. The irony of it is, it's Google that's being fleeced by this guy, not us. He's not selling our pics--or anything else--just engaging in petty click fraud. Eventually, Google will kick his sorry ass out, and he'll be back a week later under a fresh identity. Yeah, it sucks to be used by lowlife like him--and there are undoubtedly others like him that we don't even know about--but frankly, it doesn't rate very high on my worry list. It does worry me that other posters here are worrying about it enough to stop posting, though.
These sites are just grabbing the RSS feeds, extracting the content, and re-wrapping them in their own HTML for display. It's not about the photos, it's about ad revenue, even if it's just pennies per ad. Add enough of those together and they make money.
Furthermore, given the way that Google works, the more links pointing to these sites boosts their relevance. You're actually doing them a favor by providing them hits and link backs.
It sucks but that's life in the internet age. The only way that you can reduce (not prevent) something like this is to limit visibility to only registered, validated, vetted, and authenticated users. That would put a serious crimp in the usability of the site (in my opinion).
Mike
I welcome your feedback, but leave the editing to me - thanks!
Let me say up front that I have respect for you and have enjoyed our Dgrin friendship.
But, we must live in different worlds (of thinking)
Let me use an analogy to help explain my views:
You go to work. You get your paycheck. You take it to the bank. You deposit your money in the bank.
You do this on a regular basis. The bank knows you as a patron.
While you are depositing your money in the bank, you visit with others whom are doing the same.
You (and they) enjoy talking about how they make their money.
One day you come in and find out that at least two people have been stealing your, and everybody else's money every morning.
This makes you mad, on several levels.
First:
Someone is stealing from you
Second:
The bank knew this and didn't inform you of it. Just letting you continue to deposit your money in their bank, to be stolen (knowingly) the next morning.
Third:
The bank won't even acknowledge that anything is wrong.
Forth:
There are some who believe that no real harm is being done since the thieves are buying dentures for all the toothless people of the world (or whatever), instead of spending it on hookers.
First issue:
I'm against theft and will not support it, directly nor indirectly.
Second issue:
In my book, this is as bad as the first issue. I find it unconscionable that a company (SmugMug) would know that copyrighted images were regularly being stolen from its members, and did not inform them of such, so that the members could decide if they wanted to continue posting their images only to be stolen. The only explanation I can come up with for this avenue of course is SmugMug did not want their business to suffer. It would seem that the decision was made to this end.
Third issue:
Basically tied into the second.
Forth issue:
Even though we don't know this for sure one way or the other; just because the thieves are not out right selling our stolen images, gives me no solace. I'm overboard at THEFT!
I guess this is a personal issue as to where you draw the line.
To maintain that SmugMug has no legal authority in this issue is not accurate. They do not have legal standing for our copyright, but they most certainly have the legal and MORAL right (and duty) to try and stop said theft from their own websites. SmugMug has the legal and MORAL right (and duty) to inform its members that image theft is regularly taking place on their forums.
That's about the best I can explain it for you Richard.
As you know I've enjoyed Dgrin for a good while, but these issues are not trivial in my book. I hope things transpire so that I will have an outlook that allows me to continue enjoying being a member of Dgrin.
We've put a man on the moon. No way will I believe that this technique is unstoppable. This kind of stuff happens all the time, therefore is quite common. Someone figures out how to do something, someone else figures out how to stop it.
That's a big point here. IMHO, SmugMug should be ACTIVELY trying to figure out how to stop it.
To simply say, it's the Internet age, live with it, is IMHO defeatist.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
SmugMug, by virtue of accepting my money and providing me access to their forum, assumes a responsibility to protect the sanctity of my photo submissions....to the best of their ability. If they aren't willing to do that, such a posture should be divulged right up front before any money changes hands. To hide behind a veil of " there's little we can do " is preposterous.
To throw up your hands and say, in effect, " well, that's one of the prices you pay for a presence on the Internet " is one of the most absurd positions I can imagine. Such a prevailing attitude does nothing but perpetuate such abuses.
Patents and copyrights are being assailed all over the world. We each have a duty to fight such developments as best we can. Sadly, the only tool I currently have to work with ( apparently ) is the privilege of denying these thieves access to my stuff by ceasing to post pictures.
We each can respond to this situation in a fashion best suited to our individual wants and needs. What's good for the goose my not be good for the gander. Frankly, I'll be thrilled when, and if, I feel comfortable enough to again share my photos with all you great people.
Tom
Randy,
I appreciate your passion on this topic. I also didn't say that it is unstoppable although that's pretty much the answer from a practical perspective. You could set up an exclusive "walled garden" that severely limits access, but the downside would be the almost certain decline in viewers, posters, and comments. Some might be willing to make that trade, but I would not.
Also, while we're unhappy about these specific sites, what about the others like Pinterest, StumbleUpon, or even facebook that allow users to post links to interesting content? Those sites are probably getting greater gains than these others. Do you not see that as theft as well? What about the options that SmugMug provides explicitly for the purpose of sharing photos?
I will also echo what Randy said earlier, this is a difficult area of law. If I steal money from your bank account, then you won't have it and I will. In this case you still have your photos and these other sites are simply grabbing the link (which leads back to your photo). What has been stolen? That's why this sort of issue falls more into copyright violation than anything else.
Please understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative, but to shed some light on the workings of the web.
Thanks,
Mike
I welcome your feedback, but leave the editing to me - thanks!
Howdy Mike,
Without posting my resume for you, allow me to assure you that this Texas boy knows a bit about "technology".
I was a Lead Network Engineer for, at the time, the cutting edge company that developed mobile Internet service. I just this month finished development and deployment of a commercial website.
On the photography side, I made my complete income from photography for three and a half years.
Now that we know a bit about me, we might be able to agree that I have a bit of knowledge and experience of which I speak.
All the other sites you mentioned are side fodder here, and do not apply to this situation. Those options are for sharing YOUR images. The others are links to your images.
It appears you might not be versed on photography copyright law. As soon as I push my shutter button, I own the copyright to that image. I retain ALL RIGHTS to it unless I grant them away. Part of my legal protections is that nobody may copy my images. (Among many others)
These thieves are not borrowing my images, nor only posting a link to them. They are illegally displaying a copy of my image without my consent.
I noice you did not mention the equally troubling issue about SmugMug knowing my, and others, images were being stolen on a daily basis and made the calculated decision NOT to inform us of the continual theft.
The difficulties of technology have NOTHING to do with this behavior.
If you want to post your images and don't care if they are stolen, that's your business, but make no mistake, allowing image theft hurts us all.
GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
https://www.rssinclude.com/help_support/integrate_into_popular_services/how_to_add_an_rss_feed_on_blogger_blogspot
RSSInclude.com is what they are using. It costs them $69.90 a year to use it, so that is probably why they are using the click through links with every post that they pull in.
I think dGrin should add an option that when starting a new thread, we are given the opportunity to turn off RSS for that thread! Just a thought.
GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1987608&postcount=14
It was just posted in another thread in Other Cool Shots.
This doesn't sound "virtually impossible" as some have claimed.
Actually makes sense. We know the two blogs that are stealing our images. Blogs have IP addresses. Should be simple to block the IP. That's done all the time by network admins.
Point is, why won't SmugMug persue such remedies? Or others?
Randy,
I think it is awesome that you're familiar with the tech. I also agree that this is a copyright issue and needs to be handled in that context. I tried to indicate that in my earlier post, but apparently wasn't successful. On that front, make sure you register so that you get statutory damages in addition to actual damages
As for the other "solution" proposed, it will last until they change their IP address. That's something at least. As mentioned, from a web host perspective it's really easy to do, but you're back to playing wack-a-mole again.
It is for this very reason that I never post full resolution images. Sometimes the internet sucks.
Mike
I welcome your feedback, but leave the editing to me - thanks!
It is whack a mole. But big deal. That is defeatism. NEARLY ALL PROBLEMS IN LIFE ARE WHACK A MOLE. Crime fighting, drug problems, investing for the future, identity fraud, heck, most issues at my day job.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
I've kind of been sitting back watching and trying to figure this out.
I have to say the more I watch and see how this has been handled
the more Upset and Angry I've become. To me, to not have alerted the
posters of this egregious attack, is totally unacceptable and borders
on deception to me. Knowing this has been going on for
Months and Months, and to not bring this up on each and every forum
is really bad form. I don't think there are very many that aware of
what's been going on. I know I didn't know about it until a couple of days ago.
I'm in Total Agreement with all that Tom, Randy, and all the others
have said in all their well written and stated facts. To see the responses to their
posts made me wonder at one point, is this the DGRIN that I joined in 2006?
Some of the replies made me think they'd be good Press Secretary's,
with the way they've been side stepping this very serious issue.
Also, when I'd seen a very good idea that "the Lazy Destroyer" posted about just
posting a statement about see post below, then post images in the next post below
that. I thought that was a very good idea, but it fell on deaf ears apparently, if nothing
else it would have been a good stopgap and DGRIN/Smug could have taken that approach
and tell folks that do this until we can get a fix in place. Also, the procedure that Brigster brought
up sounds like it might be something that could knock this attach out, if nothing else to take into consideration.
To not do anything or make others aware to me is just really very upsetting and can you imagine some of these images
being used by who knows who and for what purpose.
You'd certainly think that the "SMUGMUG HERO's" would come to our Rescue on
this, but ????????????????????????
So, I won't be posting images on here anymore till this is resolved and I urge all the rest
of the folks to not post either. I've really enjoyed this forum for years, and years,
but this latest event has made me wonder not only about posting here, but also
about my Smugmug Membership if they're not any more Proactive than what I've
seen here.
Kindest Regards,
CK
Craig
Burleson, Texas
Since the beginning of SmugMug, protecting your photos is extremely important to us (probably the most important thing). We have some of the most advanced privacy controls in the industry to make sure your photos are safe. What makes this hard is that this user is scraping your site rather than stealing it (meaning all the links still go back to your SmugMug page). If he was stealing the images we might be able to do more.
It's may seem simple to block just 1 person from seeing a SmugMug image but it's not. We could ban an IP but then this user will simply change the IP and go again. Bot detection is extremely hard to detect and keep out. They can be using multiple IP's from multiple locations around the world. If we ban 1 IP, it'll just get stolen from another, for example. Additionally, it takes a lot of effort to find the needle in the haystack, only for him to change the IP and force us to do it all over again.
One option would be to disable External Embedding of your images. The images will disappear from the blogspot but that also means they'll disappear from dgrin too. You'll have to link to the images instead of actual embed the images into dgrin. I realize this isn't a very good solution for dgrin since you want to display your photos for people to see and we want them to be seen here.
The best course of action to have the blogspot site taken down is for many many people to complain to Google. SmugMug can add our voice but a mass of people complaining will have much more weight than our 1 voice.
We'll continue to monitor and see if there's any additional steps that we can take.
Former SmugMug Product Team
aaron AT aaronmphotography DOT com
Website: http://www.aaronmphotography.com
My SmugMug CSS Customizations website: http://www.aaronmphotography.com/Customizations
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky