To Share or Not to Share.....

Wiren · April 26, 2016

I bring this up in the sports forum as I think it has merits here, but if Mod needs to move it... ok

I will be the action sports photographer this year for the local youth softball league. I will of course be using my SM site to showcase (and sell :rofl :dunno) images. I do plan on printing and having a booth on playoff weekends, but will have online sales opportunities as well.

My question is for the folks that have experience in actually selling sports photos in mass qty.....

Watermark with a © ~ All Rights Reserved...?

I am thinking..., since SM has an option for Social Media Sharing that links back to the website of doing a Creative Commons release for the sports galleries... thereby letting others share (and showcase my stuff for me) with the requirement of attribution :deal (I know... getting folks to do so is a bit of a lark...).

I would at this point have a disclaimer in the Gallery Description to remind folks about attributing any shared work by me.....

Am I over thinking myself into stupidity here..... ?

For an example of what this would look like, see this gallery where I recently did a CC license in the gallery description box.... http://www.prismaticimagery.com/People/Client-Files/2016-Hillsboro-Latino-Cultural

Mitchell · April 26, 2016

I would share but have your watermark be your smugmug address. This should help drive some activity to your site.

Good luck with this venture. I've quit shooting action sports on spec. I now only shoot for hire. $150 gets me to the game and then you have access to purchase photos.

bobcool · April 26, 2016

Hey Lee,

It's been proven over and over again that hardly anyone buys prints from an online gallery any more, because most people don't even print at all - they keep the images on their phones or computers.

Your only chance for print sales is the booth and onsite printing because you have a captive audience in an emotional moment. If you open up the online gallery with a creative commons license, then that will sabotage your print sales, in my opinion. If you do provide an online gallery, I'd recommend putting a watermark diagonally across every photo at 50% opacity.

Good luck with sales!

Wiren · April 26, 2016

Mitchell wrote: »

I would share but have your watermark be your smugmug address. This should help drive some activity to your site.

Good luck with this venture. I've quit shooting action sports on spec. I now only shoot for hire. $150 gets me to the game and then you have access to purchase photos.

Wow! $150 to get you there?!? Is that for one individual player? And then they have online access to purchase the photo's....???

Can I ask if this model any more profitable than any other you've used? I'm sure it keeps all uninterested parties away and saves time for other things because of it... but are you making as much or more shooting this way?

And where do you shoot?... does the geographical location help with this model? I'm not sure my geographical suburb west of PDX would go for a model like this.... it's hard to make them care in the first place.

Also, when you do this model, do you uncheck the "social sharing" box in your galleries so that nobody can share to the public domain.... and do you notice anybody doing screen grabs regardless of your WM?

Thanks for your time.

Lee

Wiren · April 26, 2016

bobcool wrote: »

Hey Lee,

It's been proven over and over again that hardly anyone buys prints from an online gallery any more, because most people don't even print at all - they keep the images on their phones or computers.

Your only chance for print sales is the booth and onsite printing because you have a captive audience in an emotional moment. If you open up the online gallery with a creative commons license, then that will sabotage your print sales, in my opinion. If you do provide an online gallery, I'd recommend putting a watermark diagonally across every photo at 50% opacity.

Good luck with sales!

I know most folks don't print... and online sales are a joke, i've proven that to myself over the past 8 years. This is the first year where i've had a chance to be the sole shooter for a whole league and set up a sales station. As I plan to display (and catch any potential sales) online, I do plan to watermark the images.... but as I can bet folks will try to screen grab to show off, I wondered if with my WM I should just allow the social sharing with the notice/reminder to folk that it's not nice to steal and to please attribute to me.... that way i'm open and friendly and if they use the sharing links, people get pushed to my site to look at other stuff......

Yeah, I know, i'm still a wistful babe in the woods.... i'll keep y'all posted on how it goes.

Thank you for your time.

Mitchell · April 26, 2016

Wiren wrote: »

Wow! $150 to get you there?!? Is that for one individual player? And then they have online access to purchase the photo's....???

Can I ask if this model any more profitable than any other you've used? I'm sure it keeps all uninterested parties away and saves time for other things because of it... but are you making as much or more shooting this way?

And where do you shoot?... does the geographical location help with this model? I'm not sure my geographical suburb west of PDX would go for a model like this.... it's hard to make them care in the first place.

Also, when you do this model, do you uncheck the "social sharing" box in your galleries so that nobody can share to the public domain.... and do you notice anybody doing screen grabs regardless of your WM?

Thanks for your time.

Lee

I primarily shoot youth soccer for two different leagues. I started just shooting games for my own children but had enough interest in my photos from other teams to branch out. Shooting for spec did not work. I have no interest in on-site printing. The logistics are too great. I would need to hire someone to print while I shoot. I am also very particular about my photos and PP. I would not be happy just handing my card over to someone to print SOOC.

I was actually approached by a team a few years ago and the team mom suggested paying me for my time. This was how I started charging an up front fee. Almost like a sitting fee. The team mom collects the money from the other moms ($15 each). They are then given the web site address to view the photos and order prints. I don't watermark these.

I do not typically have hundreds of photos. I try to create 3-4 good action photos or "sportraits" of each child. I will only shoot early morning or late afternoon games when the light is favorable. I tell the parents that the photos will only be available on-line for 30 days. This usually gets them ordering during their first or second viewing.

The best clients are the youngest kids. 6 and under youth soccer is adorable and the parents typically do not have a ton of sports photos of their kids yet. By the time the kids are older, the parents are typically not interested in buying photos.

I try to give them something they cannot shoot with their own DSLR. Wide open fast lenses with good lighting usually provides a "wow" factor that many parents are happy to pay for.

I don't get rich doing this, but I enjoy it and the parents like the photos. I don't waste my time with this model. I'm there because I've been hired to take photos.

Wiren · April 26, 2016

Mitchell wrote: »

I primarily shoot youth soccer for two different leagues. I started just shooting games for my own children but had enough interest in my photos from other teams to branch out. Shooting for spec did not work. I have no interest in on-site printing. The logistics are too great. I would need to hire someone to print while I shoot. I am also very particular about my photos and PP. I would not be happy just handing my card over to someone to print SOOC.

I was actually approached by a team a few years ago and the team mom suggested paying me for my time. This was how I started charging an up front fee. Almost like a sitting fee. The team mom collects the money from the other moms ($15 each). They are then given the web site address to view the photos and order prints. I don't watermark these.

I do not typically have hundreds of photos. I try to create 3-4 good action photos or "sportraits" of each child. I will only shoot early morning or late afternoon games when the light is favorable. I tell the parents that the photos will only be available on-line for 30 days. This usually gets them ordering during their first or second viewing.

The best clients are the youngest kids. 6 and under youth soccer is adorable and the parents typically do not have a ton of sports photos of their kids yet. By the time the kids are older, the parents are typically not interested in buying photos.

I try to give them something they cannot shoot with their own DSLR. Wide open fast lenses with good lighting usually provides a "wow" factor that many parents are happy to pay for.

I don't get rich doing this, but I enjoy it and the parents like the photos. I don't waste my time with this model. I'm there because I've been hired to take photos.

Mitchell, I appreciate your time and answers... sounds like the road I am on... I have always been shooting, first for my sons Soccer and have been shooting my daughters Softball team for a while.

Over the last 4 years I have been approached by the companies that were the paid shooters to assist in their shooting during the playoff games. Then I was hired to help do T/I photos...

Now that the league moved away from a big box company and contracted with a smaller one, they only want the T/I sales and refused to shoot or provide any action, so the league asked if I would due to my reputation. I also signed on because I love doing so... between myself and the league, we are both finding our way to provide action shots to parents that may give both parties what they want.

They are certain all 31 teams want action shots.... I'm not so sure they all care... I may do an impersonal survey of parents at season end and determine if I want to adopt your model... that may make scheduling shoot times easier and provide a defined amount of income for my time.

At the end of the day, I love shooting the games and seeing the kids make those awesome plays.

Thanks again

Lee

jhefti · April 26, 2016

Mitchell wrote: »

I primarily shoot youth soccer for two different leagues. I started just shooting games for my own children but had enough interest in my photos from other teams to branch out. Shooting for spec did not work. I have no interest in on-site printing. The logistics are too great. I would need to hire someone to print while I shoot. I am also very particular about my photos and PP. I would not be happy just handing my card over to someone to print SOOC.

I was actually approached by a team a few years ago and the team mom suggested paying me for my time. This was how I started charging an up front fee. Almost like a sitting fee. The team mom collects the money from the other moms ($15 each). They are then given the web site address to view the photos and order prints. I don't watermark these.

I do not typically have hundreds of photos. I try to create 3-4 good action photos or "sportraits" of each child. I will only shoot early morning or late afternoon games when the light is favorable. I tell the parents that the photos will only be available on-line for 30 days. This usually gets them ordering during their first or second viewing.

The best clients are the youngest kids. 6 and under youth soccer is adorable and the parents typically do not have a ton of sports photos of their kids yet. By the time the kids are older, the parents are typically not interested in buying photos.

I try to give them something they cannot shoot with their own DSLR. Wide open fast lenses with good lighting usually provides a "wow" factor that many parents are happy to pay for.
.

I don't have much experience shooting youth sports for money--a few benefit shoots at tournaments for my daughter's soccer team, nothing more--but I did have an interesting discussion at the soccer Nationals in the summer of 2014. I was shooting my daughter's team and a guy came over to ask who I was shooting for. I told him I was just a parent and I expected him to shoo me off the pitch. However, he was only wondering if I was with the photography firm hired to shoot the teams, as the team I was shooting did not contract with them.

It seems they contacted the team managers well before the event and offered to shoot it for a flat rate; I can't remember how much but I think in the range of $600 per game. Prints were extra, but full res downloads were at no additional charge. He said there aren't much print sales, but it works out well. IIRC they signed up ~50% of the teams competing, and did pretty well. Shooters could make several thousand dollars a day doing this; more than I make shooting professional sports.

With 20 players on each team, that's only $30.00 per player/family, a real bargain to get a dedicated sports photographer to memorialize the event. Of course, this was the National Premier League Championships, so a big deal. YMMV for other events. Still, I'd be curious if pre-event promotion sales is the way to go. I have no personal interest in doing this, but I'd think with a good portfolio and some persistence, you might be able to make it worth your while.

jmphotocraft · April 27, 2016

I agree with Mitchell, have your watermark be your SmugMug URL, but put it in the corner. My experience is that even if you obnoxiously obscure the image with a big centered watermark and disable right-clicks, people will screengrab or post the url to your image anyway, watermark and all. The only thing an obstructive watermark accomplishes is making people think you're annoying or a jerk. A friend of mine sends me pics of his motocross races like this, tiled completely with watermarks. I tell him he's stealing, he doesn't care. Let people share and enjoy your images online, and let your watermark tastefully drive clicks to your site. If you didn't get paid up front, you've already missed the boat, no sense trying to get it back with on-spec sales.

Sam · April 27, 2016

Wrien,

You might as well ask a coyote not to eat the neighbors Chihuahua as ask today's generation to not steal photos. Same with attribution. You want attribution, put your watermark on it. Then when they steal it your (attribution) watermark goes with it.

Sports photography is not a money maker and while I do detest large obscuring watermarks, if you want to have a chance at selling prints or downloads you really need to have more than a small water mark at the bottom. You put it online and they will steal it.

Selling prints onsite is the most secure way to deal with image theft.

Another way is to get paid upfront and let them download the images for free. Or only shoot kids who's parents have paid you to shoot.

While you may be the only "official" photographer, there will be other parents and a couple hundred cell phones, and all those photos are free. In today's world a lower quality free image tops the best image if you have to pay for it.

Good luck,

Sam

Mitchell · April 27, 2016

Sam wrote: »

In today's world a lower quality free image tops the best image if you have to pay for it.

I enjoyed that.

jmphotocraft · April 27, 2016

Sam wrote: »

Sports photography is not a money maker and while I do detest large obscuring watermarks, if you want to have a chance at selling prints or downloads you really need to have more than a small water mark at the bottom. You put it online and they will steal it.

In my experience they will steal it no matter how obstructive the watermark. So you may as well let people see and enjoy your talent.

Sam · April 28, 2016

jmphotocraft wrote: »

In my experience they will steal it no matter how obstructive the watermark. So you may as well let people see and enjoy your talent.

Good to know. The next time I am in your neck of the woods I'll stop by your place since I now know the doors will be unlocked.

That said, if you want to have fun and post images for folks to enjoy and snatch that's your choice, but if your trying to have a business that philosophy won't get it done.

Sam

jmphotocraft · April 28, 2016

Sam wrote: »

Good to know. The next time I am in your neck of the woods I'll stop by your place since I now know the doors will be unlocked.

That said, if you want to have fun and post images for folks to enjoy and snatch that's your choice, but if your trying to have a business that philosophy won't get it done.

Sam

(Actually the doors are unlocked!)

The only reason to watermark is if you are selling on spec. Selling on spec won't get it done anyway, so what's the point?

AceCo55 · April 29, 2016

jmphotocraft wrote: »

(Actually the doors are unlocked!)

The only reason to watermark is if you are selling on spec. Selling on spec won't get it done anyway, so what's the point?

For me:
1) They know/I know/everyone knows that the watermarked image has been obtained without compensation - a constant reminder
2) They should not be able to print it from a commercial establishment
3) It is free advertising - everyone who sees that image knows it comes from me and, with the web address as the watermark, they also know where to go to see more.

My photos are screened shot every week - but they only get a low res watermarked image.
I have accepted that and I'm OK with it - not that I could stop it anyway (unless I never upload to the www).
If they want a higher res image &/or an image without the watermark then I need some compensation.

My watermark is dead centre - every image.
My photo - my choice.

Others will have a different opinion about it - that's OK. Do what you are comfortable with.

Wiren · May 1, 2016

Season Started
Ok fella's, the season started yesterday. I have read all the warnings and blown right by them, I have put on a helmet for safety, but otherwise am steering right into the storm.....

I introduced myself to coaches prior to game starting so they didn't think I was some creeper, some of the parents recognized me and I could hear explanations shuffling through a portion of the crowd at one game. Other than that, I didn't advertise myself and didn't talk to parents. If they land on my site by word of mouth during the season, they have a "buy" option for the photo's they like, otherwise, they'll see them at my booth at the end of the year. And I know that it will be a rare parent who makes their way to my site at the end of the day let alone bothers to buy anything...

I used the following settings for setting up the galleries

1. Max viewing size, XL (I may make that just plain Lg)
2. I turned off the Social Sharing option
3. Of course I am using Right Click Protection

Sample of my last Watermark......

U12%205%20vs%206-389-L.jpg

jmphotocraft · May 1, 2016

Let us know how you do. Watermark is fine. I wouldn't go smaller than XL. Turning off social media sharing and disabling right clicks doesn't do squat, people will just screen-grab or get the image out of browser cache. Or if you're handy with browser developer tools, you can still get image URLs:

U12%205%20vs%206-197-XL.jpg

Wiren · May 2, 2016

jmphotocraft wrote: »

Let us know how you do. Watermark is fine. I wouldn't go smaller than XL. Turning off social media sharing and disabling right clicks doesn't do squat, people will just screen-grab or get the image out of browser cache. Or if you're handy with browser developer tools, you can still get image URLs

I don't doubt you can and I would bet many in my Intel based community are savvy enough computer engineered to know how to do it too.... but i'm banking on the fact that 99% of the parents are too lazy or don't give a crap...., heck, many of them hardly make games let alone just drop their kid off at practice (even the first one) with a total stranger they've never met called "Coach".... My wife and I stay for every practice and attend every single game.... we have given rides home to so many young ladies whose parents "forget" to pick them up at the right time and are too busy to answer their phone....

Anways, if they get a screen grab, it has my watermark... I know that can be easily removed in Photoshop.... I watched a Graphic Designer the other day hit 3 keys and my watermark disappeared like it never was.....

... and I know there are ways to scrub metadata, so the folks that really want to steal an image can certainly get away with it,..... here's to laziness!

Thanks

Mitchell · May 2, 2016

Good luck.

You should reconsider your WM and make it PrismaticImagery.com

jmphotocraft · May 2, 2016

Good luck. It can work if conditions are just right. My town was conditioned to expect Little League photos, but the old fashioned way - paper form, pre-buy a dumb package, T&I only. When I took over, they knew I was the new official 'tog and to check my website. The action shots were a big novelty so they sold well. You won't get rich, which is why the thrill wore off for me after 5 years, but it's a nice slush fund.

Wiren · May 2, 2016

jmphotocraft wrote: »

Good luck. It can work if conditions are just right. My town was conditioned to expect Little League photos, but the old fashioned way - paper form, pre-buy a dumb package, T&I only. When I took over, they knew I was the new official 'tog and to check my website. The action shots were a big novelty so they sold well. You won't get rich, which is why the thrill wore off for me after 5 years, but it's a nice slush fund.

That's exactly what i'm hoping for... the board threatened to not bother with action shots and the parents that heard about it whipped up a frenzy... they are conditioned as well from the big box provider in the area to get action coverage only during playoff games which results in less than stellar shots... but the parents buy the crap anyway... much the way starving folks line up for gruel whether they want it or not.

My goal is set at a measly $150 per team.... that's about an average of $12 per parent... over 31 teams it will indeed be a slush fund and just enough to deal with the time and headache. If I can make $250 per team, then that would exceed all expectations. My $150 is just a goal... a feeler for the year to see where the benchmark is... in the past I have made about $60-$75 off of my teams parents even with them buying the other crappy photos.... although I know the big box lost somebiz due to me

I'll keep y'all updated so we can cheer a win together or so the lot of you can say together "Told ya so!".... we'll see how it goes.

Lee

jmphotocraft · May 2, 2016

I think $150 per team is just on the optimistic side of realistic. I don't think $250 is realistic.

Wiren · May 2, 2016

jmphotocraft wrote: »

I think $150 per team is just on the optimistic side of realistic. I don't think $250 is realistic.

I believe you will be proven right, but I am going to work hard at making you eat those words mister!

I would like to ask those in the know... you, Mitchell, et-al... when I do the booth, what prints should I take... what size? Should I only print 5x7 & 8x10... or do I take some of the 5 star photo's at 11x14 or even 16x20 in hopes that the parents just "have to have it"... I am thinking that anything larger than 8x10 printing is a waste of money, paper and ink.... and I want to keep costs down and toss very little......

Suggestions on print sizes, amounts, and sales techniques for booth sales would be greatly appreciated.... help me prove you wrong jmphotocraft.....

Thanks guys, this has been a good learning thread and I appreciate all the back and forth.

Lee

jmphotocraft · May 2, 2016

And I hope to eat those words!

A booth or table with prints for sale is something I always wanted to do but between shooting 45 teams myself, processing, customer service, my day job, and my family, I never had time. If you can make it happen I think it's a great idea. I would print as large as you can at a $20 price point. Many people walk around with $20s in their wallet from the ATM, which makes for an easy transaction. I wouldn't go smaller than 11x14". Print a few of your really stellar shots even larger and sell them for $30 so people can see that these are available and so they can see the quality. I think a lot of people don't realize the full quality until they see them printed large. To really make them sell, make them commemorative. That is, put the league logo and the year in the corner (make up a league logo if they don't have one). Maybe the team name too.

chasgroh2 · May 5, 2016

Wiren wrote: »

I know most folks don't print... and online sales are a joke, i've proven that to myself over the past 8 years. This is the first year where i've had a chance to be the sole shooter for a whole league and set up a sales station. As I plan to display (and catch any potential sales) online, I do plan to watermark the images.... but as I can bet folks will try to screen grab to show off, I wondered if with my WM I should just allow the social sharing with the notice/reminder to folk that it's not nice to steal and to please attribute to me.... that way i'm open and friendly and if they use the sharing links, people get pushed to my site to look at other stuff......

Yeah, I know, i'm still a wistful babe in the woods.... i'll keep y'all posted on how it goes.

Thank you for your time.

...take heart, oh babe, just keep pluggin' away! I've been selling/marketing pageantry shots out of Smugmug for 5-6 years (last event I shot 8,900 in a day...crazy I know) and, yes, not retiring on that income anytime soon, nevertheless i'm getting to the point of funding large portions of my gear and travel. 'Course, I'm passionate about the activity (actually teach at local high schools in the winter) and that helps. www.marchingpix.com if you want to see my model...your WM looks good, in addition to my centered WM, I put a small sig line in one of the lower corners, which will cover if the print is framed...

To Share or Not to Share.....

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