I'm not sure about a new 5D2 if money is a concern. A mildly used one lacks only a warranty (which may be worth something).

The improvement in image quality you'd get with the 5D2 demands that you work around the focus system. That may or may not be a burden. How often do you focus off-center?

I have a 5d2 and a 135mm f/2.0L and my take on "focus and recompose" is "focus on the desired focus point and crop sideways in post." You get a lot of eyeballs centered on that center cross focus point, but pixels let you recompose by cropping - the lens is 1.6 times shorter than on a crop sensor and the sensor has a boat load of pixels.

(You're in trouble if you are too close and have to pick between focus and a composition that gets everything into the frame. A bride and groom about to kiss and you are perfectly centered between them. The open gap between them is off in the weeds. Focus and recompose will focus past them. Focusing on one and staying on that one them puts the other out of focus and out of the frame. You can't get the anticipation shot, you have to wait for a nose to make it to your center focus point. )

"Focus and crop sideways" can be a lot of work if you have a bunch of frames to crop. This is a time versus money trade off; your time in post compared to money up front to buy the 5D3 that you really want. Others have spoken about how well it can focus in the dark off center.

If most of your frames would be perfectly composed using just the center focus point - and this is the case for some that you have posted - then it's not such a limitation.

Originally Posted by divamum SORRY!! Jack. Mea Culpa, and now corrected Duh. I am so NOT a morning person.... No, not so much that, as that on paper I don't think this camera has me and my needs in mind; real-life use may prove otherwise, but I won't know that in time to make this particular decision, now. It really seems that the GPS, wifi, HDR etc speak to a different end-user. The sensor is probably just fine, and the AF will likely please many for certain uses .... but I'm not sure how much it would offer me above the 5dII's since it doesn't have enough extra AF points to let me use those all the time (as the 7d does). Which kind of speaks to my dilemma. I do love my 7d, but it can sometimes be sniffy about focusing in low-contrast situations too. Question is, will the higher ISO clarity be enough of a payoff? Really, it's only this big price-drop that has made me second-guess myself, and potential further price-drop in the next 6 months. I have a history of "stepping-stone" upgrades (eg xsi>a used 50d while I was saving for the 7d>sold 50d for almost what I paid when I had accrued the difference for the refurb 7d). Long term plan would be: 5dII now (sell xsi, use 7d as 2nd cam); when 5dIII price comes down in 6-12mos, sell both 7d and 5dII, and then add the necessary extra for the 5dIII. Or I may abandon the whole decisions-making process, buy a 24-70II and go hide (just kidding - it really isn't life or death, just a camera body!!)

If you're already feeling the "envelope push" with the 7D, then the 5D mk2 will be a miserable experience for you.

I'm actually surprised that you haven't gathered enough shooting experience with the 5D mk2 yourself to make the decision apparent. Since my own opinions are often very passionate, and usually relate to a very specific style of shooting, I want you to disregard my accusations that the 5D mk2 is downright "abysmal" in low light. (Even though I've shot with literally every full-frame DSLR ever produced) The bottom line is that you risk making the wrong decision if you don't have your own experiences to guide you. I don't know how much you've shot with the mk2 yet, let alone the mk3, and I don't know how easy it would be for you to gain access to either of these cameras for an entire shoot. However that is the best advice I can give- You need to work with these cameras and know them inside and out before you will know which is right for you.

Personally, as someone who shoots weddings, theater, and "lifestyle" portraits for a living, I wouldn't settle for anything less than the 5D mk3.


Oh, and BTW...

Originally Posted by jgoetz4 ....I wonder what excuse peoople will use for the 5D3 when the 5D4 comes out ? Thanks for looking Have a good day Jim...

...Jim, this is simply not an accurate representation of (my) reality. Yes, there is always room for improvement in new cameras. But your speculation that a 5D mk4 would totally obsolete the mk3, and magically push it below some new standard, is incorrect for me. I still pay my bills with a D700, a discontinued camera! I tried the D800, and you know what? While there is a little bit of improvement, I don't need it. I believe the same will go for whatever replaces the 5D mk3 in ~3 years. The mk3 will continue to be a very acceptable camera.

There is indeed a threshold of acceptability. It is certainly different for each person, as many have paid their bills with the 5D mk2 for years. But my point is that others simply have different styles / needs.

=Matt=

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville Oh, and BTW... ...Jim, this is simply not an accurate representation of (my) reality. Yes, there is always room for improvement in new cameras. But your speculation that a 5D mk4 would totally obsolete the mk3, and magically push it below some new standard, is incorrect for me. I still pay my bills with a D700, a discontinued camera! I tried the D800, and you know what? While there is a little bit of improvement, I don't need it. I believe the same will go for whatever replaces the 5D mk3 in ~3 years. The mk3 will continue to be a very acceptable camera.

True. The 5D3 will become obsolete only when it ceases to take pictures. I will have mine until it dies. When you think of it that way, Diva, it's not so expensive anymore.

Originally Posted by divamum SORRY!! Jack. Mea Culpa, and now corrected

No worries.

Long term plan would be: 5dII now (sell xsi, use 7d as 2nd cam); when 5dIII price comes down in 6-12mos, sell both 7d and 5dII, and then add the necessary extra for the 5dIII.

Seriously what do you need two bodies for? I shot 3 years of Little League T&I and action (5000 keepers over the course of a month), and never had a camera or lens fail. I say roll the dice. Sell your 7D while it is still worth something, sell your XSi, Tamron, 85/1.8, get the camera you really want and be happy. You'll have it for a long time.

Or I may abandon the whole decisions-making process, buy a 24-70II

Pssh, if you have that kind of money then get the 5D3!! ;)

Matt, I typically don't "rent to try", although with my sights on more expensive models now I may have to do that. Until now, it's been a case of being able to purchase used or refurbed so that when even if I lost a bit by selling on, I could use an item without a financial hit. Now that I'm playing with more expensive gear, that probably neeeds to change....

Nak, it's only this most recent price drop that has prompted me to consider - current NEW price is less than last week's used. That screams "massive deal" to me, and made me wonder if I should just give it a whirl.

With my luck, I'll hem and haw for so long that the decision will be made for me when they sell out

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville If you're already feeling the "envelope push" with the 7D, then the 5D mk2 will be a miserable experience for you. I'm actually surprised that you haven't gathered enough shooting experience with the 5D mk2 yourself to make the decision apparent. Since my own opinions are often very passionate, and usually relate to a very specific style of shooting, I want you to disregard my accusations that the 5D mk2 is downright "abysmal" in low light. (Even though I've shot with literally every full-frame DSLR ever produced) The bottom line is that you risk making the wrong decision if you don't have your own experiences to guide you. I don't know how much you've shot with the mk2 yet, let alone the mk3, and I don't know how easy it would be for you to gain access to either of these cameras for an entire shoot. However that is the best advice I can give- You need to work with these cameras and know them inside and out before you will know which is right for you. Personally, as someone who shoots weddings, theater, and "lifestyle" portraits for a living, I wouldn't settle for anything less than the 5D mk3. Oh, and BTW... ...Jim, this is simply not an accurate representation of (my) reality. Yes, there is always room for improvement in new cameras. But your speculation that a 5D mk4 would totally obsolete the mk3, and magically push it below some new standard, is incorrect for me. I still pay my bills with a D700, a discontinued camera! I tried the D800, and you know what? While there is a little bit of improvement, I don't need it. I believe the same will go for whatever replaces the 5D mk3 in ~3 years. The mk3 will continue to be a very acceptable camera. There is indeed a threshold of acceptability. It is certainly different for each person, as many have paid their bills with the 5D mk2 for years. But my point is that others simply have different styles / needs. =Matt=

Good Afternoon Matt,
Yeah, the 5D3 will be an acceptable camera for years to come, just as the 5D2 will be as well. People bashed the af on that camera for years, but yet they continued to use it, rather then buy a 1 series camera for weddings and other low light events. If you know the limitations of any equipment, then don't buy it thinking it's gonna prove you wrong, and miraculously exceed your expectations. It ain't gonna happen. Using a studio, portrait or landscape camera like the 5D or 5D2 to shoot weddings, is like taking a knife to a gun fight. People know it's not reliable in those type of settings, but they continue to use them, then they complain about em. How many photographers, pro or amateur, have you heard complain about the great portrait sessions they have taken with a 5D2, or captured incredible landscape shots with it ? Not many I'll bet. I've used the 5D2 in quite a few low light (construction) projects with excellent results. I don't need a 5D3, and won't need a 5D4 when it comes out. If I decide to shoot weddings, then I'll buy a 1 series camera post haste ! After all, my clients are worth it
Have a good day
Jim...

[QUOTE=jmphotocraft;1822144]No worries.

Seriously what do you need two bodies for?

While I don't shoot events, I do shoot things which are tightly scheduled and time-critical, which wouldn't necessarily give me time to rent or which would really let the client down if I didn't have a workable backup; I just don't feel comfortable not having SOMETHING I could shoot on if my main camera plotzed on the day.

I have sometimes wondered, however, if I'd do better to (when the time comes, whenever that may be) sell the 7d and hang on to the xsi as that "just in case" backup.

Too many decisions.

Pssh, if you have that kind of money then get the 5D3!! ;)

Ha! No, I don't. But to get that one, I could sell my 24-70I and the Tamron 17-50 and at least get within smelling distance of it....

Originally Posted by divamum Matt, I typically don't "rent to try", although with my sights on more expensive models now I may have to do that. Until now, it's been a case of being able to purchase used or refurbed so that when even if I lost a bit by selling on, I could use an item without a financial hit. Now that I'm playing with more expensive gear, that probably neeeds to change.... Nak, it's only this most recent price drop that has prompted me to consider - current NEW price is less than last week's used. That screams "massive deal" to me, and made me wonder if I should just give it a whirl. With my luck, I'll hem and haw for so long that the decision will be made for me when they sell out

the 5D2 is good if you don't shoot a lot of sports, earlier this summer it was on the CLP program for $1400, I don't know if Canon will sell it lower than but it's still a very good model.

Originally Posted by jgoetz4 Good Afternoon Matt, Yeah, the 5D3 will be an acceptable camera for years to come, just as the 5D2 will be as well. People bashed the af on that camera for years, but yet they continued to use it, rather then buy a 1 series camera for weddings and other low light events. If you know the limitations of any equipment, then don't buy it thinking it's gonna prove you wrong, and miraculously exceed your expectations. It ain't gonna happen. Using a studio, portrait or landscape camera like the 5D or 5D2 to shoot weddings, is like taking a knife to a gun fight. People know it's not reliable in those type of settings, but they continue to use them, then they complain about em. How many photographers, pro or amateur, have you heard complain about the great portrait sessions they have taken with a 5D2, or captured incredible landscape shots with it ? Not many I'll bet. I've used the 5D2 in quite a few low light (construction) projects with excellent results. I don't need a 5D3, and won't need a 5D4 when it comes out. If I decide to shoot weddings, then I'll buy a 1 series camera post haste ! After all, my clients are worth it Have a good day Jim...

Jim, here's the reason it was such a big deal: We didn't always have the 5D mk3, and the 1Ds mk3 cost $7-8K. The D700 cost $3K with AF as good or better than a 1-series.

The whole "they continued to use it instead of buying a 1-series" POV is just not fair to any Canon shooter who didn't have money coming out their ears.

That is why tons of photographers jumped ship from the 5D mk1 / mk2 to the D700, in 2008-2011. They could buy two D700's, or one plus a couple pro lenses, for less than the price of a single 1Ds mk3.

That, to me, is why the 5D mk3 is such a big deal. It is "only" $3500 and it has pro AF. It finally meets the standards of many low-light photojournalists and action photographers, without breaking the bank.

=Matt=

Originally Posted by divamum While I don't shoot events, I do shoot things which are tightly scheduled and time-critical, which wouldn't necessarily give me time to rent or which would really let the client down if I didn't have a workable backup; I just don't feel comfortable not having SOMETHING I could shoot on if my main camera plotzed on the day.

I dunno, I feel like since I'm not a full-time pro, I'm not expected to have back-up cameras. I would at a wedding, but for example I have an event coming up for a non-profit org that a friend of a friend is organizing, and they hired me to cover it. If my camera goes poof, I will just shrug and say my camera broke, and not bill them. Maybe this would be career-limiting, but I'm not really trying to make this a career. Again, I have never had a camera fail, so I'm fine to roll the dice. Maybe if I was still milking an old camera I'd feel differently. But not with a new camera.

I have sometimes wondered, however, if I'd do better to (when the time comes, whenever that may be) sell the 7d and hang on to the xsi as that "just in case" backup.

I would do that. No need to have a 7D hanging around that you almost never use, when you could sell it now for decent money. Or maybe sell the 7D and XSi and get a 5D3 and T3i if the math works out. Hmmmm, articulating LCD....

Ha! No, I don't. But to get that one, I could sell my 24-70I and the Tamron 17-50 and at least get within smelling distance of it....

Bah. The "old" 24-70L is more than "good enough" to keep. However.... there is this.

Anyway, I still think buying a new 5D2 is crazy. But a factory refurb for $1500 or less would make sense.

I'd offer to sell you my used 5D2, but you'd probably do better on craigslist. I saw one today offered for $1000. I'm not selling that low. I'll just keep mine as a backup. Still takes good pictures. Although I think I do prefer my new 5D3 that I picked up in the Adorama deal.

I think a call to CPL may be in order - given the recent price drop, that may well be something to pursue since I have an old point and shoot that I could trade in if need be... Hmmmmm.... more and more ideas.... I have no problem going the stepping-stone route again (ie, 5dII purchased at a rock bottom price then sold on with or without my 7d to fund a 5dIII next year sometime, maybe even when the III's price softens a little more).

My gut hunch is that even though the III is for sure a better camera and whups the II's behind as far as AF, the 5DII has been THE go-to Canon camera for non-sports until the III was released. That's not that long ago, so I can't imagine it's any "worse" now than it was 3 months ago... ;) The idea of being able to leave it on ISO 1600 and still get clean portrait shots is beyond appealing (I did a portrait shoot on Tuesday where it was so flippin' dark outside at 11am I could'nt do a single indoor natural light shot in the ENTIRE session) and that alone could make it worth the investment. This entire shoot the other day is taking ridiculous amounts of processing time because I had to fudge the lighting so much; higher ISO capability would have improved things a bunch and saved me so.much.time.

I will also add that I handled a 60d the other day and I HATE the non-joystick rocker collar around the button. I actually use the joystick a lot (mainly to move focus points around the 7d) and it will really be a change not to have it now that all new Canon models are being released without it! I'm sure I'd get used to it, but it's a change I wish they hadn't made....

Jack, I just don't feel comfortable without some kind of backup, however feeble. I reckon I'm selling my *service* as much as my images, and that includes being reliable no matter what. For instance, I did a headshot set for a guy last week - he actually lives in NY but was visiting family down here and had ONE day where he could do the shoot; if my gear had crapped out, I'd have let him down and not done myself any favors as far as word of mouth reputation (as it happens, he came to me instead of returning to the excellent NY photographer who did his last set, and not only because things are cheaper down here - he wanted something a little less formal and relaxed than the high-powered NY studio vibe, and liked my portfolio and decided to give me a try while he was home for a family event anyway. He has been ECSTATIC about the experience from first communication to final shots and is really talking me up. Talk about nice little ego stroke for me! ). Anyway, my point here is that I want to have something in the bag for emergencies, even if it's "only" a Rebel.

One other reason not to sell the 7d right away to fund a III is that I"ve become really used to the crop factor as far as what I "see". Until I shoot regularly with a FF camera, I won't know how that will affect me, and I want to keep my options open for a while :)

Anyway, thanks everybody for letting me "think out loud", and all the great discussion

I've had all kinds of Canon bodies (still do until I sell them in the very near future), including but not limited to the aforementioned 5DII & 7D.

For me personally, unless I just absolutely needed the extra reach or the snappier focus of the 7D, I always preferred the full-frame 5DII.

I personally have rarely found the focus on the 5DII to be a limiting factor, and yes, I've shot sports with it. I suppose the new 5DIII is now the cats meow, but the 5DII is still a heck of a performer that I was very well pleased with.

(Now, Canon's QC on their products... that's what mainly drove me over to Nikon after 35+ years with Canon)

Bottom line: For the work you do (that I've seen), I think you'll be ecstatic with the 5DII, and full-frame in general. No question about it - For higher ISO images, the 5DII spanks the 7D.

YMMV

Good luck with your decision!

[QUOTE=divamum;1822585]I think a call to CPL may be in order - given the recent price drop, that may well be something to pursue since I have an old point and shoot that I could trade in if need be... Hmmmmm.... more and more ideas.... I have no problem going the stepping-stone route again (ie, 5dII purchased at a rock bottom price then sold on with or without my 7d to fund a 5dIII next year sometime, maybe even when the III's price softens a little more).

Yeah, the Canon Loyalty Program is definitely a good idea. I heard they had refurbs for $1500, and typically their refurbs are very low mileage.

Typically, focus is NOT a problem on the 5D2, unless you are trying to track a moving subject with anything but the central point. Even that one is iffy for AI-servo, but it can be done.

The outer points can also be iffy for still shots if you don't know what kind of edge it is looking for. But my experience is if you put it on the right kind of edge (horizontal lines for the outer points), it will work.

Just to complicate things further - is there any official image of the 6d's AF points, ie the spread of them? Is it the classic 9pt layout of the xsi/5dII or is it actually the "conceputalised layout" I've seen knocking around the net? I haven't found an official image, but wondered if anybody else might have.... That COULD actually be a dealbreaker for me - if the points on the 6d are better laid out (and as "wow" as Canon's marketing hype is promoting them), then that really *could* make it useful for me.

Aargh - why am I overthinking this so much?!?!? (answer: anything in the region of $2000 is a LOT for a camera, no matter how good it may be or what a useful professional tool it is .... )

The 6D won't be here at least until December. I haven't seen that specific question answered, but I'd be surprised if the layout of the 9 points were much different than the 5D2. Supposedly the center point was improved to focus in lower light. That's about all I know.

Canon is in a tough spot, here. They are releasing the budget full frame, so they can't really give you the focus system of the 7D or no one would buy the 5D3.

Originally Posted by divamum Just to complicate things further - is there any official image of the 6d's AF points, ie the spread of them? Is it the classic 9pt layout of the xsi/5dII or is it actually the "conceputalised layout" I've seen knocking around the net? I haven't found an official image, but wondered if anybody else might have.... That COULD actually be a dealbreaker for me - if the points on the 6d are better laid out (and as "wow" as Canon's marketing hype is promoting them), then that really *could* make it useful for me. Aargh - why am I overthinking this so much?!?!? (answer: anything in the region of $2000 is a LOT for a camera, no matter how good it may be or what a useful professional tool it is .... )

From the Canon USA description and Features page:

Canon 6D AF

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consum...os_6d#Features

A scaled image showing 6D AF frame coverage, from "phreekz.de" site:

http://www.phreekz.de/wordpress/2012...ergleich-2012/

--------------

Scaled image showing 5D MKII AF coverage from the Steves-Digicams.com site:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/camer...-review-4.html

--------------

It appears that the Canon 5D MKII and 6D share a similar AF pattern of distribution, so the major sell of the 6D is the increased AF sensitivity. The 5D MKII, on the other hand, has 4 additional "Helper Points" (not shown) which engage and help only during continuous/AI-Servo AF mode. Both cameras have a single, center cross-type AF point, sensitive to f2.8 capable lenses, and high-precision.

I am going to predict that the 6D AF, regardless of whether it is slightly superior or inferior to the 5D mk2 AF, will still deliver the same conclusion: Great in most shooting conditions, and decent in low light with the proper AF technique, ...but still falling short for those who push the envelope too far. In other words? Even if the 6D turns out to be slightly better than the mk2, that small advantage may or may not be worth the other drawbacks of having an "amateur" camera body...

My D600 testing has gone down the same road- It's got great autofocus, but I can still feel a difference between it and my D700. Would I use the D600 (or the 6D) professionally? I certainly would, but only for the improvements in image quality. Everything else would be a slight setback that I would have to fight a little harder to overcome. Not a show-stopper like I had originally asserted, but still extra effort.

The only indicator that I could be proven wrong about the 6D's AF is the claim that the 6D can now go down to -3 EV with the center AF point. However in my real-world experience I'm not even close to trusting those "on-paper" specs. For example just yesterday I was shooting with my D700 in a group with a bunch of 5D mk2 / 7D shooters, shooting a model in a dark alley, (All these cameras are -2EV rated I believe) ...and everybody else was having issues with locking focus unless they used AF assist tools, while my D700 was nailing shots effortlessly. So that is why I'm not putting much stock in the -3 EV claim for the 6D... I'd love to be proven wrong, in fact I'd love for Canon to completely climb back on top of the pile for a generation or two; it would force Nikon to step things up again!


=Matt=

Originally Posted by jmphotocraft AF, silent shutter, HDR, ergonomics... easily worth $300. I bought my 5D3 for the AF, but I use the HDR and silent shutter a lot more than I would have ever dreamed. Get in with a Realtor friend and shoot real estate to make some easy money. The HDR makes it easy as pie. It's almost like stealing. (sample)

That in camera HDR is seriously nice...your clients must love your work. Thanks for sharing...


As for buying a 5d2...just look at the new technology...see above...technology that might be available in the new 6d...if it were me, I'd wait. Especially, if you don't need any of the pro-feature set that comes with the 5d2 body. And, if you're not shooting weddings, you probably don't.

Never under estimate new technology. And, I'll guarantee that, if it's anything like the New D600 from Nikon...which has IQ second only to the D800...and faster this and better that...you'll kick yourself for buying 4 year old technology. Let it rest for a couple of months...and see...I don't think you'll be sorry.

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville I am going to predict that

I am going to predict that the 6D's center AF point will be as good or better than the 5D3's, which is why they only gave it one of them. I will also predict that the outer line-type sensors will be as good or marginally better than the 5D2's, which is to say, dubious for single-shot and useless for servo.

Originally Posted by Ed911 That in camera HDR is seriously nice...your clients must love your work. Thanks for sharing...

Thanks, I believe they do. To be fair though, you can do it with any Canon capable of RAW if you just take 3 bracketed shots and then run the HDR tool in DPP. But doing it in-camera saves a ton of time.