Originally Posted by McQ Well, we only had to pull teeth to get a fairly straight answer after all this time. I personally feel you've done us a disservice and were essentially dishonest by withholding this answer as long as you did. Did you hope to hold on to customers by not answering and putting out vague comments about new features that we'd all love? Regardless, this was the answer I figured was coming and it just makes it easier to part ways and not look back. The hardest business to get is business you once had and loss.

Hey McQ,

I think you're over-reacting. Watch the two videos, listen to the podcast and read Baldy's first response in this thread. His latest response was nice but you're just goading him to regurgitate until he comes up with better answers based on policy changes they have not made yet. When that happens, he'll reply, post or do whatever needs to be done to get the message out

The question that SM has put before us is "Here are our account levels, features and prices... please choose one(s) that fits your needs and for those with grand-fathered accounts, here's a discount."

And just like any failed marketing & pr plan (usually by someone fresh off the college boat), SM will have to assess their decisions. The sooner the better to make a change but with these rolling renewals, who knows when SM will tally the votes and try to adjust.

Originally Posted by Pure Energy Hey McQ, I think you're over-reacting. Watch the two videos, listen to the podcast and read Baldy's first response in this thread. His latest response was nice but you're just goading him to regurgitate until he comes up with better answers based on policy changes they have not made yet. When that happens, he'll reply, post or do whatever needs to be done to get the message out The question that SM has put before us is "Here are our account levels, features and prices... please choose one(s) that fits your needs and for those with grand-fathered accounts, here's a discount." And just like any failed marketing & pr plan (usually by someone fresh off the college boat), SM will have to assess their decisions. The sooner the better to make a change but with these rolling renewals, who knows when SM will tally the votes and try to adjust.

You may be right. Appreciate the reply and I'll look things over again. But to be honest, I do feel like they've been withholding info they've known about in hopes that the previous replies would hold customers from leaving.

Thanks.

And now a couple of weeks further on, we have 2 more weeks of refusing to justify the $90 difference between the Power and Portfolio account.

Clearly the outrage has died down guys, and you've won. You've doubled the price and it only took a month or two for most people to accept it. I have to say I am impressed.

However, I am never going to recommend your service to anyone based on how you have handled this pricing restructure. Note that I don't believe the top pro increase is unjustified, nor do I believe that you shouldn't be able to raise prices - but they way you have handled it and the constant willful ignoring of the hard questions makes it clear that this whole thing (including the screwing of the hobbyists wanting pro features) was pre-planned.

Congrats, I hope you don't lose so many customers you have to raise prices again.

Cheers - N

Originally Posted by TalkieT And now a couple of weeks further on, we have 2 more weeks of refusing to justify the $90 difference between the Power and Portfolio account. Clearly the outrage has died down guys, and you've won. You've doubled the price and it only took a month or two for most people to accept it. I have to say I am impressed.

The vocal outrage has run it's course, I'm simply biding my time now.

If SM doesn't pull it's collective cranium from it's rectum with respect to hobbyist "pro" users by January 2013 I will start actively looking for an alternative solution so that things are totally settled by May when my renewal is up.

It's pointless trying to do anything more at this point, they have made it perfectly clear that they won't discuss anything until they have "figured it out".

Originally Posted by TalkieT I am never going to recommend your service to anyone

Ditto, whether or not I end up sticking with SM I will never again recommend them to anyone. The price increase and it's poor handling are just the latest example of the Smug at the heart of SmugMug.

Originally Posted by Rogue 1 Hi All - this question's been posted several times in the last few days (in all manner of wording, so consider McQ's a paraphrase) - Just for the sake of clarification, Don addressed this exact point pretty clearly in the blog response video with Baldy (posted last Friday) - You can view the whole response here, along with all of the specific questions - http://tinyurl.com/95sb87l (not to be confused with the TWiP podcast) But for those unable to view, here's that question as it was posed by the community, and his response: It looks like you're purposely saying ‘no’ to the hobbyist photographers out there. What's your solution for us? "You know we die inside a little bit when we hear this. Our company is full of photographers many of whom would consider themselves to be hobbyist photographers or up and comers, but we believe that SmugMug needs to stand for value above all else. That value means exceptional customer support, features you can't get anywhere else, unlimited storage and more. And we just don't know how to deliver all of that at that price point. So like we have throughout our company's history, we're listening to our customers, engaging our community, and trying to figure it out. We just haven't figured it out today." What I take from this is that we hear you. We really do feel your pain. And we DO need (and very much want) to work out a way to fulfill your needs while also being careful not to do so in a way that is detrimental to ourselves. We ALL want SmugMug to be here for at least a few more decades (conservatively speaking, of course). I'll even quote Don once again, we're "trying to figure it out. We just haven't figured it out today." It stands to reason this move was a loooong time in the works. Planning. Debating. More planning. More debating (some debates that may be described otherwise). Engineering. Re-engineering. Discarding and starting over. Rinse repeat. Rinse repeat. We agonized over it... Like Rome, this action wasn't built in a day. And a well thought out, properly executed, truly meaningful solution to this 'gap' won't be either. Knee-jerk responses are most often disastrous... As has been mentioned/hinted too many times, we've got revolutionary 'stuff' in the pipeline. We're working hard on it as we speak, and have been for quite some time (yes, I'm with you, we want it as much as you and every day someone asks "are we there yet?) We're going to get this done, and we'll be 'trying to figure it out' for the middle-group all the while - We really do hope you stick with us, but if you can't we understand, and once again quoting Don (because he said it perfectly), if you choose to leave, "I completely understand if you just can't wait. We'll miss you, and hope to earn your business again once you see what we're pouring our hearts & souls into. I'm confident you'll love it every bit as much as I do." Thanks so much for your patience, and your input, and your feedback... and mostly for your passion. We've caught a good bit of flack, but we've also gotten a massive amount of support along with the ire, and like my Dad used to say, "I only beat you because I care." - There's zero doubt that you all care greatly. As with any family, in the long-term we won't let you down. (but agreed, this a rough patch!)

There is a lot said here. The SM heros have saved my bacon on more than one occaision coding and customizing my website. The support I ALWAYS get is unsurpassed in any service I get besides my doctor or dentist.

Sm handles all the business part which is convenient but at a pretty good clip this is true.

I like SM and don't want to go some where else and have to start another website...i'd rather gouge my eyes out with a butter knife.

Originally Posted by TalkieT And now a couple of weeks further on, we have 2 more weeks of refusing to justify the $90 difference between the Power and Portfolio account. Clearly the outrage has died down guys, and you've won. You've doubled the price and it only took a month or two for most people to accept it. I have to say I am impressed. However, I am never going to recommend your service to anyone based on how you have handled this pricing restructure. Note that I don't believe the top pro increase is unjustified, nor do I believe that you shouldn't be able to raise prices - but they way you have handled it and the constant willful ignoring of the hard questions makes it clear that this whole thing (including the screwing of the hobbyists wanting pro features) was pre-planned. Congrats, I hope you don't lose so many customers you have to raise prices again. Cheers - N

The thing is, they will really see it when people like me, either quit SM.. or drop from the "Pro" rate down to a power user.

Maybe when that wave crashes, they will realize how stupid and completely worthless the Portfolio account is.

I just looked at the plans I'll have to choose from when I renew next year. I'm currently a Pro user but have to say the Power level really seems like it will fit me. I plan on doing only in person sales from now on as my sales through my website have been few and far between. Additionally I won't have to pay to have prints made through a lab I've not been to personally and can use my preferred lab.

Originally Posted by wibubba I just looked at the plans I'll have to choose from when I renew next year. I'm currently a Pro user but have to say the Power level really seems like it will fit me. I plan on doing only in person sales from now on as my sales through my website have been few and far between. Additionally I won't have to pay to have prints made through a lab I've not been to personally and can use my preferred lab.

This is a good plan for anyone whose sales on their site aren't very large. I wonder if it's possible to go to the lowest account level and accomplish the same thing?

Since we still haven't head boo from anyone at SM on the great new, world-beating features that are "just around the corner", it's probably best for SM users with low volume sales to cough up as little money as possible and additionally keep all of their sales profits.

Originally Posted by McQ This is a good plan for anyone whose sales on their site aren't very large. I wonder if it's possible to go to the lowest account level and accomplish the same thing? Since we still haven't head boo from anyone at SM on the great new, world-beating features that are "just around the corner", it's probably best for SM users with low volume sales to cough up as little money as possible and additionally keep all of their sales profits.

The only real problem with this plan is SM's latest "feature" that automatically removes watermarks for Pros that are downgrading.

I have way too many photos to go back and watermark locally and re-upload. I either need to stay with SM at an as yet unannounced Prosumer level account, or I bail completely.

If the watermarks would persist through the downgrade (like they used to) then dropping to Power might be a viable option.

Originally Posted by mbellot The only real problem with this plan is SM's latest "feature" that automatically removes watermarks for Pros that are downgrading. I have way too many photos to go back and watermark locally and re-upload. I either need to stay with SM at an as yet unannounced Prosumer level account, or I bail completely. If the watermarks would persist through the downgrade (like they used to) then dropping to Power might be a viable option.

Good point. Hadn't thought of that.

Originally Posted by Baldy Hey everyone, I wish I had more to say than we said in the video, but the honest answer is we'd love to offer a less expensive pro account with commerce, but now that we've been in business as long as we have and reached our size, we just don't know how to do it and make it really good. It kills us to say that, but it's honest. You might wonder what time and size has to do with it because I've mentioned mostly storage and engineering costs, and if you want me to answer I can, but I know that what you'd love and we would too is the $150 commerce account back in some form. With the heat we're taking for not having one anymore, we'd dearly love to offer it, it's just at this time we don't know how. I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you. Baldy

Three weeks since this post, so I'll come back to the question for Baldy. Since you've stated you'd answer what time and size has to do with this, please go ahead.

Second question: You've also stated that you'd dearly love to offer a commerce account at the lower, $150/yr price, but you just hadn't figured it out yet. Again, three weeks later, have you figured it out? Have you tried to figure it out? Any meetings, brainstorming sessions, etc., because if you'd dearly love to offer it, it must be a top priority. When will you let us know?

Simply waiting for a reasonably a direct answer to direct questions. You are the one who said you'd love to offer it, so I'm simply holding you to your statement and waiting for a reply.

Originally Posted by McQ When will you let us know?

SM policy is to not discuss future plans or time lines.

(Just in case you hadn't heard that often enough)

Originally Posted by McQ Simply waiting for a reasonably a direct answer to direct questions.

Don't hold your breath, SM seems exceptionally short on direct answers normally and things are even more bleak when it comes to this particular subject.

Originally Posted by mbellot SM policy is to not discuss future plans or time lines. (Just in case you hadn't heard that often enough) Don't hold your breath, SM seems exceptionally short on direct answers normally and things are even more bleak when it comes to this particular subject.

You're so right. But I figure its worth asking again, until it's answered. (Cue sarcasm font>>>) If it's something that SM would dearly love to do, then they must be hard at work on it. A company that is highly customer focused wouldn't keep those customers in the dark, after all.

Originally Posted by McQ Three weeks since this post, so I'll come back to the question for Baldy. Since you've stated you'd answer what time and size has to do with this, please go ahead. Second question: You've also stated that you'd dearly love to offer a commerce account at the lower, $150/yr price, but you just hadn't figured it out yet. Again, three weeks later, have you figured it out? Have you tried to figure it out? Any meetings, brainstorming sessions, etc., because if you'd dearly love to offer it, it must be a top priority. When will you let us know? Simply waiting for a reasonably a direct answer to direct questions. You are the one who said you'd love to offer it, so I'm simply holding you to your statement and waiting for a reply.

Still waiting. If you'd rather PM me, that's fine too. But A lot of people want to know the answer to the question.

Originally Posted by McQ Still waiting. If you'd rather PM me, that's fine too. But A lot of people want to know the answer to the question.

Everything takes time..... I know they're talking about it, because they asked me a whole bunch of questions and my opinion on some things... we all just have to be patient while they figure it all out.

Originally Posted by McQ Still waiting. If you'd rather PM me, that's fine too. But A lot of people want to know the answer to the question.

I'm just curious why you think that they are in any hurry to figure this out? Clearly it wasn't important enough to them to figure it out before announcing their new pricing. Their official statement is that they are really, really sad that they don't have an answer for this, but I've not seen anything, besides Andy's note above, that indicates that they are putting any effort into trying to find a solution. Did I miss where they said that they are working on this? I guess at least we know now that they are talking about it - but that's a long way from actually coming up with a solution. As far as I can tell, there's been no official statement beyond "they just don't know how to do it."

And further - I don't think they'll get it right this time either. I've said it before and so far I don't believe I've been off-base... Smugmug have lost the ability to execute on any major upgrade or deployment. They have the hallmarks of a company run by engineers, of services designed and built by engineers, before being tested by engineers.

In over 5 years of observation, the above points have been reinforced many times. The difference now is that for pro customers they have doubled the prices with promises of a huge upgrade and set of improvements.

History does not suggest this will happen.

I hope I'm wrong though - but with a company as secretive as Smugmug WHAT ELSE BUT THEIR DEMONSTRATED CAPACITY FOR BAD DELIVERY CAN I BASE MY OPINIONS ON?

I'm still here, no-one else has customisation options to match - but as soon as someone does, I'm gone. I'm also figuring out a short term solution in case I need to migrate for any reason before I find a proper replacement.

Doubling the price and not delivering a cent of extra value makes me very very nervous.

Cheers - N

Originally Posted by Baldy Hey everyone, I wish I had more to say than we said in the video, but the honest answer is we'd love to offer a less expensive pro account with commerce, but now that we've been in business as long as we have and reached our size, we just don't know how to do it and make it really good. It kills us to say that, but it's honest. You might wonder what time and size has to do with it because I've mentioned mostly storage and engineering costs, and if you want me to answer I can, but I know that what you'd love and we would too is the $150 commerce account back in some form. With the heat we're taking for not having one anymore, we'd dearly love to offer it, it's just at this time we don't know how. I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you. Baldy

Originally Posted by mike_k I'm just curious why you think that they are in any hurry to figure this out? Clearly it wasn't important enough to them to figure it out before announcing their new pricing. Their official statement is that they are really, really sad that they don't have an answer for this, but I've not seen anything, besides Andy's note above, that indicates that they are putting any effort into trying to find a solution. Did I miss where they said that they are working on this? I guess at least we know now that they are talking about it - but that's a long way from actually coming up with a solution. As far as I can tell, there's been no official statement beyond "they just don't know how to do it."

Hey Mike, glad you asked. My questions to Baldy are direct, and address two different things he wrote in his post (#77 in this thread). I already pointed these out, but here they are again.

First:

"You might wonder what time and size has to do with it because I've mentioned mostly storage and engineering costs, and if you want me to answer I can"

I've simply taken him up on his offer. That's number one. Still waiting for him to answer.

The second, contained in his same post, was his twice emphasizing that he would both "love to" and "dearly love to" offer a Pro-type commerce account for $150/year.

The reason I've written my posts is clear as well, as I've stated that since they'd love to do this, then it follows that it must be a priority for SM to get this done, even though they "haven't figured it out yet".

Which, by the way, if you think about it, shows just how poorly they run their business. If they put so much time into thinking about this and worrying about it as both Baldy and Don said in their videos (making sure they wouldn't make the same mistakes as Netflix), then they clearly should have run through some scenarios for this eventuality. But they didn't. Or wouldn't. Now they face a bigger problem of customers leaving, plus their reputation being in shreds.

Again, I have to assume that since now Baldy clearly stated he would dearly love to offer a commerce account at $150/year; that he really means it and they're working furiously on it. But the problem is they're staying deafeningly silent on this, despite having been asked directly about their progress and if they're serious about doing it. That way they won't leave customers hanging and not being sure if it will come or not.

Andy's post is helpful (as they usually are), but he no longer works for the company, therefore isn't in the inner circle any more and the question was addressed directly to Chris MacAskill.

I have time to wait it out. I don't have to pay up again until April and have already made arrangements if this is just more smoke and mirrors. But other photographers aren't so fortunate and need to know if SM is once again just waving a fake carrot or will really try to do this, and when. They don't have time to wait and must either pay up or find another hosting site.

Hope that answers your question.

Remember the Big Green Buy button they tested years ago? Where is that? How about the multi-level categories/ folders they posted would be soon.. My favorite still is the pricelists redo that caused so much grief last year but, we are still told to head over to uservoice to vote to be able Print out our Pricelist... I have been on here since 2007 and that has come up all the time... Engineers not Photographers is right. They Keep saying they are talking to Pro's about their needs but I haven't been asked only told to vote on Uservoice... To no avial I might add...

10 days away from 2 months after the Smugpocalypse and not 1 major feature change.

Originally Posted by mike_k Their official statement is that they are really, really sad that they don't have an answer for this, but I've not seen anything, besides Andy's note above, that indicates that they are putting any effort into trying to find a solution.

Last I heard Andy wasn't a SM employee anymore, so his response means little more than any of ours (not official).


David - Smugpocalypse, classic.