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Old Apr-25-2012, 03:19 PM
#1
kevingeary is offline kevingeary OP
Major grins
Client wants to process my images
Has anyone ever had a client request that you give them the raw files so their designer can process the images the way they want?

I'm very wary of doing this. The "final" look of the image is my brand. If my name is on an image, I want it to actually be MY image, processing and all.

What say you?
Old Apr-25-2012, 04:34 PM
#2
Sam is offline Sam
San Jose CA
Sam's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevingeary View Post
Has anyone ever had a client request that you give them the raw files so their designer can process the images the way they want?

I'm very wary of doing this. The "final" look of the image is my brand. If my name is on an image, I want it to actually be MY image, processing and all.

What say you?
I don't see nay problem.

I process..........$100.00 You watch..$200.00..........you critique while watching.......$400.00

You process.................$1000.00

Sam
__________________
www.samlinvillephotography.com
Old Apr-25-2012, 04:49 PM
#3
Pure Energy is offline Pure Energy
Major grins
Be open to this and find out more.

A magazine editor I know and trust gets photos submitted that are less than stellar in all aspects. He's going to spend a few hours to tweak and adjust that image to make that photograph as best as possible. We both laugh, cry and think it's sad when he asks for the RAW file (mostly to get a larger image to start with) and all they do is up-size the jpeg/tiff from what they already submitted. Sometimes we are amused when we check out the camera info but there's only so much one can do without access to the RAW file, if it was even shot. The choices are to use the image, don't use it or to recreate the shoot yourself.

I would consider the integrity of the person asking for the RAW file and their intentions. Are you confident the RAW file won't be loosely shared or will only be used once as they say? Will you get paid if they use it again?

If it feels like they want all of the RAW images from the photo shoot... you could consider adding that to your price sheet and just charge them an appropriate amount... like double the cost of the shoot or more.

If it sounds like they want all of the RAW images from the photo shoot instead of the actual photos that need to be processed their way in order to be used for a particular project... I'd suspect they would think that by having the RAW images they would be free to do as they please with the RAW files for that project and any other project that ever comes up.

If you haven't showed them your processed photos yet, then they are probably not interested in you working closely with them to provide them what they need.

Are your photos supposed to be matching a certain style? A style you wouldn't necessarily process the images similar to? Will you be able to give final approval to how they process your images?
Old Apr-25-2012, 05:30 PM
#4
Pupator is offline Pupator
Major grins
We had some bridal portraits done of my wife (after the fact, to make up for a crappy wedding photographer). I asked the photographer just to take the images and give me the raw files so I could process them. I was hiring her for 1) her studio 2) her ability to handle the poses 3) her creamy-nice portrait lens and FX body. We made the price arrangement up-front and found an amount that was acceptable for both of us.

Figure out what price makes it worth your while and offer that price. Let them take it or move on.

Regarding your "name being on the image": I wouldn't ever agree to buy a print with the photographer's name (advertisement) visible on the print. But if that's something you regularly do you might not want to ever accept a deal like I'm suggesting.
Old Apr-25-2012, 06:32 PM
#5
angevin1 is offline angevin1
Performs as designed
angevin1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevingeary View Post
The "final" look of the image is my brand.

Not if you don't process it yourself!

Whats the problem with being a part of a team? I take the photos, you process them. The artistic director decides which if any to use and the Chief Editor then decides which will get published.

An acquaintance of mine does something similar for a "City" Magazine. He is well known. But...and it's a big but. He hates it. Why? Because he has to produce the image from a client-walk-in or food item or Architectural Shot and have that photo taken, processed and on the Artistic directors table in a matter of hours. It becomes a one man assembly line for him.

It's your brand if you get published with your work intact. It becomes someone elses brand when others are involved. I see no real issue with derivative works.

And in keeping along the lines of Sam's thinking, get paid!
Old Apr-25-2012, 06:41 PM
#6
Glort is offline Glort
Major grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
I don't see nay problem.

I process..........$100.00 You watch..$200.00..........you critique while watching.......$400.00

You process.................$1000.00

Sam
Watching client walk out the door to find someone not on a self important ego trip that will charge a reasonable price for what they want...... FREE!

I'm more than sure in an overcrowded market like photography, there won't be any problem at all with the client finding someone more interested in doing what the client wants rather than what the shooter wants to do and the client to pay for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kevingeary
Has anyone ever had a client request that you give them the raw files so their designer can process the images the way they want?

I'm very wary of doing this. The "final" look of the image is my brand. If my name is on an image, I want it to actually be MY image, processing and all.

What say you?

You should tell your client that last bit... Particularly How it's YOUR image ( but presumably they would be paying for) and see what they say and then come back and let us know.

They may not thank you for your time and walk out the door. They may buy the image(s) but if they are not happy with them and decide they are not what they wanted, they will never be back again and neither will anyone they know.

Seriously. People need to get over this self important forum mentality and get back in touch with reality.

In the days of film you always submitted your trannys to the client and they could do what they wanted because they had the base material to work from. I never heard of any shooter saying to a mag " Oh no, you can't touch my precious work because it's all mine and I'm the only person on the planet that can edit the image so it looks acceptable. You have to pay me and accept what I deem is best for what your needs not what you think fits in with what your ideas are".

Photography is an over crowded business these days but when I read of laughable, impractical and ignorant ideas like are preached on topics like this, I realise just how wide open the business really is for people that want to make money by giving their clients what they want not what the shooter asserts is best for them.

And those that think they know best because they have been doing it for years and blah blah.... Good luck to you. You'll need it.
I'm pretty sure car manufactures know a lot more about cars than the people driving them but I also bet they build cars based on the extensive research of what people want and are prepared to pay for, not what they know actually makes the best car.

I know if you walk into a dealership and say I want to buy this car but I want to paint it fluro pink with green and black Polka dots and make the interior Lemon yellow, They are not going to give you some crap about not being able to do that because their brand is on the Vehicle and they know what colors it looks best in.
What they will do is give you a sales contract and ask if you'll be paying cash or card?

And going a step further, if you were told you couldn't do that because it was Their brand on the vehicle and they wanted it all to be THEIR styling, what would your next action be?
To just accept they know better than you what you want or go down the road to the next guy and buy the one he was happy to sell you and supply a quote for them to paint it just how you wanted?

For those artists that don't mind starving as long as THEIR work and pictures are just the way THEY want them, then denying this request would best suit your priorities.
For those that want to make a successful living from photography and have enough money not to have to worry and scrape by with a 2nd job, well they are smart enough to have already banked the clients funds and given them what they were happy to pay for.

Anyway, Instead of the endless road of threoy and conjecture this thread will surely head down, I'd like to hear some real life examples of what happened when people told their real life clients they had to have the pics the shooter deemed best for them ( or wanted to charge $1000 extra for the clients to do the editing) and what the market /situation was. I'd also like to hear the score of how many clients accepted that and how many didn't or were never heard from again over the total number of requests.

I think a reference to practical reality like this is far more enlightening than forum thinking.
Old Apr-25-2012, 07:01 PM
#7
kevingeary is offline kevingeary OP
Major grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glort View Post
Watching client walk out the door to find someone not on a self important ego trip that will charge a reasonable price for what they want...... FREE!

I'm more than sure in an overcrowded market like photography, there won't be any problem at all with the client finding someone more interested in doing what the client wants rather than what the shooter wants to do and the client to pay for.


You should tell your client that last bit... Particularly How it's YOUR image ( but presumably they would be paying for) and see what they say and then come back and let us know.

They may not thank you for your time and walk out the door. They may buy the image(s) but if they are not happy with them and decide they are not what they wanted, they will never be back again and neither will anyone they know.

Seriously. People need to get over this self important forum mentality and get back in touch with reality.

In the days of film you always submitted your trannys to the client and they could do what they wanted because they had the base material to work from. I never heard of any shooter saying to a mag " Oh no, you can't touch my precious work because it's all mine and I'm the only person on the planet that can edit the image so it looks acceptable. You have to pay me and accept what I deem is best for what your needs not what you think fits in with what your ideas are".

Photography is an over crowded business these days but when I read of laughable, impractical and ignorant ideas like are preached on topics like this, I realise just how wide open the business really is for people that want to make money by giving their clients what they want not what the shooter asserts is best for them.

And those that think they know best because they have been doing it for years and blah blah.... Good luck to you. You'll need it.
I'm pretty sure car manufactures know a lot more about cars than the people driving them but I also bet they build cars based on the extensive research of what people want and are prepared to pay for, not what they know actually makes the best car.

I know if you walk into a dealership and say I want to buy this car but I want to paint it fluro pink with green and black Polka dots and make the interior Lemon yellow, They are not going to give you some crap about not being able to do that because their brand is on the Vehicle and they know what colors it looks best in.
What they will do is give you a sales contract and ask if you'll be paying cash or card?

And going a step further, if you were told you couldn't do that because it was Their brand on the vehicle and they wanted it all to be THEIR styling, what would your next action be?
To just accept they know better than you what you want or go down the road to the next guy and buy the one he was happy to sell you and supply a quote for them to paint it just how you wanted?

For those artists that don't mind starving as long as THEIR work and pictures are just the way THEY want them, then denying this request would best suit your priorities.
For those that want to make a successful living from photography and have enough money not to have to worry and scrape by with a 2nd job, well they are smart enough to have already banked the clients funds and given them what they were happy to pay for.

Anyway, Instead of the endless road of threoy and conjecture this thread will surely head down, I'd like to hear some real life examples of what happened when people told their real life clients they had to have the pics the shooter deemed best for them ( or wanted to charge $1000 extra for the clients to do the editing) and what the market /situation was. I'd also like to hear the score of how many clients accepted that and how many didn't or were never heard from again over the total number of requests.

I think a reference to practical reality like this is far more enlightening than forum thinking.
So what you're saying is that there is no more art to photography? The art is dead, just be a photographer and hand over base images so people can do what they want with them?

What percentage of a final image is processing and style? It's hard to think that someone like Joel Grimes ever becomes Joel Grimes when he hands unprocessed images over to random clients to do what they wish with.

Why are you trying to tell me to throw a good percentage of the art out the window for $ or just because that's what clients want?
Old Apr-25-2012, 07:08 PM
#8
Angelo is offline Angelo
Turning frowns upsidedown
Angelo's Avatar
I wonder how many architects refuse to let a contractor build a house after finishing the blueprints? And the architect has a license to protect and defend.

Do the shoot, take the money, give them the files... be happy and move on!

However, the client is probably uneducated and unaware of what they are requesting. Unless they provide you with a memory card that you hand back to them after the shoot you never give away your RAW files (you can't). Download the images then export copies as TIFF files for the client.
You could contractually stipulate that copyright remains yours and no commercial use of the images will be permitted without fair compensation.

.
Old Apr-25-2012, 07:14 PM
#9
Sam is offline Sam
San Jose CA
Sam's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glort View Post
Watching client walk out the door to find someone not on a self important ego trip that will charge a reasonable price for what they want...... FREE!

I'm more than sure in an overcrowded market like photography, there won't be any problem at all with the client finding someone more interested in doing what the client wants rather than what the shooter wants to do and the client to pay for.
.
Glort,

Sorry I forgot to add a

This is a kind of an historic type of retail store statement here in the USA. It is meant to be humorous.

While it's true I am very important, I have rarely thought of myself as self important.

Sam
__________________
www.samlinvillephotography.com
Old Apr-25-2012, 07:18 PM
#10
kevingeary is offline kevingeary OP
Major grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glort View Post
Watching client walk out the door to find someone not on a self important ego trip that will charge a reasonable price for what they want...... FREE!

I'm more than sure in an overcrowded market like photography, there won't be any problem at all with the client finding someone more interested in doing what the client wants rather than what the shooter wants to do and the client to pay for.


You should tell your client that last bit... Particularly How it's YOUR image ( but presumably they would be paying for) and see what they say and then come back and let us know.

They may not thank you for your time and walk out the door. They may buy the image(s) but if they are not happy with them and decide they are not what they wanted, they will never be back again and neither will anyone they know.

Seriously. People need to get over this self important forum mentality and get back in touch with reality.

In the days of film you always submitted your trannys to the client and they could do what they wanted because they had the base material to work from. I never heard of any shooter saying to a mag " Oh no, you can't touch my precious work because it's all mine and I'm the only person on the planet that can edit the image so it looks acceptable. You have to pay me and accept what I deem is best for what your needs not what you think fits in with what your ideas are".

Photography is an over crowded business these days but when I read of laughable, impractical and ignorant ideas like are preached on topics like this, I realise just how wide open the business really is for people that want to make money by giving their clients what they want not what the shooter asserts is best for them.

And those that think they know best because they have been doing it for years and blah blah.... Good luck to you. You'll need it.
I'm pretty sure car manufactures know a lot more about cars than the people driving them but I also bet they build cars based on the extensive research of what people want and are prepared to pay for, not what they know actually makes the best car.

I know if you walk into a dealership and say I want to buy this car but I want to paint it fluro pink with green and black Polka dots and make the interior Lemon yellow, They are not going to give you some crap about not being able to do that because their brand is on the Vehicle and they know what colors it looks best in.
What they will do is give you a sales contract and ask if you'll be paying cash or card?

And going a step further, if you were told you couldn't do that because it was Their brand on the vehicle and they wanted it all to be THEIR styling, what would your next action be?
To just accept they know better than you what you want or go down the road to the next guy and buy the one he was happy to sell you and supply a quote for them to paint it just how you wanted?

For those artists that don't mind starving as long as THEIR work and pictures are just the way THEY want them, then denying this request would best suit your priorities.
For those that want to make a successful living from photography and have enough money not to have to worry and scrape by with a 2nd job, well they are smart enough to have already banked the clients funds and given them what they were happy to pay for.

Anyway, Instead of the endless road of threoy and conjecture this thread will surely head down, I'd like to hear some real life examples of what happened when people told their real life clients they had to have the pics the shooter deemed best for them ( or wanted to charge $1000 extra for the clients to do the editing) and what the market /situation was. I'd also like to hear the score of how many clients accepted that and how many didn't or were never heard from again over the total number of requests.

I think a reference to practical reality like this is far more enlightening than forum thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo View Post
I wonder how many architects refuse to let a contractor build a house after finishing the blueprints? And the architect has a license to protect and defend.

Do the shoot, take the money, give them the files... be happy and move on!

However, the client is probably uneducated and unaware of what they are requesting. Unless they provide you with a memory card that you hand back to them after the shoot you never give away your RAW files (you can't). Download the images then export copies as TIFF files for the client.
You could contractually stipulate that copyright remains yours and no commercial use of the images will be permitted without fair compensation.

.
The architects thing comparison is apples to oranges. That's what an architect is hired for. Photographers are hired for their style and that style is based on the photographer's own final images. It's their brand. That's like an artist sketching out a painting and then letting someone else paint it and pretending it's still theirs.
Old Apr-25-2012, 09:24 PM
#11
Glort is offline Glort
Major grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevingeary View Post
So what you're saying is that there is no more art to photography? The art is dead, just be a photographer and hand over base images so people can do what they want with them?
No, that's not what I said however if it's all you took from it, pointless to try and point out what I was referring to.

Quote:
What percentage of a final image is processing and style? It's hard to think that someone like Joel Grimes ever becomes Joel Grimes when he hands unprocessed images over to random clients to do what they wish with.
Well some peoples images have a lot higher percentage of processing and correcting errors that should have been fixed before the image was taken and fixing other short comings and style than mine do. This I can plainly see.
I beliee it is also hard to think that Joel Griimes or any other shooter of his note started out and earned a living by telling his clients it was HIS image and they had to take what he gave them and be happy.
Are you at the level of Joel Grimes or just a regular full time shooter like myself?

Quote:
Why are you trying to tell me to throw a good percentage of the art out the window for $ or just because that's what clients want?
Again, I'm not. Again you miss the point I labored upon. I'm telling you not to throw $$ out the window.
Perhaps I'm off track and don't understand what exact art you are trying to sell. If you could post up a pic or a link to the image in question, that would be helpful in it's clarification.


On the face of it, Clearly you had made your mind up before you asked the question and I can only think that you were looking for some support from others to back your decision because you had reservations about it yourself.

Now you are over those self doubts, Please do let us know the outcome and the details of the client, the work you were trying to sell, it's use ect so we can put it all in proper context with whatever the outcome is.
Old Apr-25-2012, 09:29 PM
#12
Glort is offline Glort
Major grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Glort,

Sorry I forgot to add a

This is a kind of an historic type of retail store statement here in the USA. It is meant to be humorous.

While it's true I am very important, I have rarely thought of myself as self important.

Sam
I got the inference Sam, unfortunately I failed to separate the message from the messenger in my reference to the attitudes.

It was not my intention to imply you felt self important and I apologize for what I said coming across that way.
It was not what I was thinking.
Old Apr-26-2012, 03:51 AM
#13
johng is offline johng
Sports Shooter
Every time I submitted a photo to my editor, they were the ones doing the final processing. What has changed now is the idea of graphic design. This isn't 20 years ago when only photographers processed images. In today's world, the photo can be a "semi-finished" good and not just the finished good. What you have to decide is:
what is more important to you - your artistic control or producing a product others appreciate and can use. I don't think there's a wrong answer. But I submit that you should consider today's graphic designers can be very good at what they do - they're specializing in part of the process. So, you MAY learn a different point of view regarding how to use one of your images from a specialist.
Old Apr-26-2012, 05:22 AM
#14
Moogle Pepper is offline Moogle Pepper
Big picture in the sky
As Johng states, there is no right or wrong answer. It is up to you and how you want to run your business.

Some editors for magazines want the raws. Not so much so that they can process the work to fit their magazine and layout, but also because sometimes the photo editor wants to see where the photographer is going with the work.

Quote:
However, the client is probably uneducated and unaware of what they are requesting. Unless they provide you with a memory card that you hand back to them after the shoot you never give away your RAW files (you can't). Download the images then export copies as TIFF files for the client.
You could contractually stipulate that copyright remains yours and no commercial use of the images will be permitted without fair compensation.
This is the real kicker here, if you do allow non-magazine clients to edit your work. Contractual information stating that the copyright remains yours.
__________________
Food & Culture.
www.tednghiem.com
Old Apr-26-2012, 05:32 AM
#15
Art Scott is offline Art Scott
Have PASSPORT will TRAVEL
Art Scott's Avatar
even in the early 1980's I really had no control over how a publisher processed my images and back then you HAD to submit the original transparencies.....even now the SI shooters shoot and the graphics dept does the final processing for the mag, no it is not totally out of their hands, but after shooting for several hours out in the blazing sun you're dog tired and drained and just want to recharge your batteries, so to speak ... ... Even writers, unless totally self published, are edited and their works are a lot of them ti e re-written by an outsider...it is just the nature of the beast...and I do know an artist that has a contract on a series of paintings....He draws the images and then it goes to 3 others and it is finished with his name on it...that is how the client paid to have it done ... ... Even song writers...song publishers take what is written and have others refine it ... ... If an artist doesn't agree with the refining process then they do not have to let their love child go into the others hands.
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Old Apr-26-2012, 06:05 AM
#16
zoomer is offline zoomer
Major grins
Get paid.
Give them the photos, tell them to do whatever they want with them. Just don't put your name on them anywhere and tell them to not credit you anywhere.
Get paid.
Old Apr-26-2012, 06:39 AM
#17
idiotabroad is offline idiotabroad
sInner gRinner
idiotabroad's Avatar
I consider my raw's private. I don't want anyone knowing how bad they are and how much manipulation I use. I know, it's just a rookie problem. I would slightly edit them to make sure they aren't complete poop.

as is where is - get paid.
__________________
Mark

If you don't agree with me then your wrong.
I can't be held accountable for what I say, I'm bipolar.
Old Apr-26-2012, 08:42 AM
#18
Cygnus Studios is offline Cygnus Studios
Commercial Photographer
Cygnus Studios's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glort View Post
Photography is an over crowded business these days but when I read of laughable, impractical and ignorant ideas like are preached on topics like this, I realise just how wide open the business really is for people that want to make money by giving their clients what they want not what the shooter asserts is best for them.
I could not agree with you more.

In the commercial photography world, we very rarely get any say when it comes to the final edit. The editors, art directors, layout techs and everyone else has more say than we do. These people pay the bills, and as long as they are happy, they will continue to pay the bills.

There is a saying in the commercial world, "Take the cash, leave the credit".
__________________
Steve

Website | Facebook | Gear
Old Apr-28-2012, 06:16 AM
#19
orljustin is offline orljustin
Major grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevingeary View Post
Has anyone ever had a client request that you give them the raw files so their designer can process the images the way they want?

I'm very wary of doing this. The "final" look of the image is my brand. If my name is on an image, I want it to actually be MY image, processing and all.

What say you?
JHC. Don't worry about keeping your "artist" ego inflated and give them what they want. If I hired a photographer, you'd better be sure I'd be editing the images anyway I like to work with the design or layout.
Old Apr-28-2012, 11:15 AM
#20
kevingeary is offline kevingeary OP
Major grins
Thanks for the input everyone. I had to play devils advocate a little to make sure I got your full opinion. I gave them the files they requested.
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