• Gear
  • Shots
  • Photo Craft
  • Video
  • Wide Angle
  • Support
  • New Stuff
  • More

Need some help with your New SmugMug Site?

Dgrin Challenges

They're back! Our latest series of Dgrin Challenges, the OOYCZ Challenges (Out of Your Comfort Zone), is a series of challenges to help you improve your photography by stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new. Our challenge leader says "Consider it like a photography class with no diplomas.". Get started with OOYCZ by reading the Challenge Guide.

Past DSS Challenge Winners, DSS Challenge Rules, and other important DSS Challenge information is here.

Looking for a little challenge? The Dgrin Mini-Challenges are a great way to challenge yourself. Take a moment to look through past winners and find the current Mini Challenge here.

From Around the Net

Enjoy a few of our favorite articles from around the 'net. If you have something you think we should see, post it here and we'll have a look.

Journeys

Landscapes

Sports

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Page 1  of  2
1 2
Old Apr-04-2012, 04:57 PM
#1
Sam is online now Sam OP
San Jose CA
Sam's Avatar
What the ?????
Just sharing: The scary part is I bet they already have lots of replies. And we all wonder how clients value photography.

Craigslist post San Francisco Bay Area:

"I'm looking for a photographer to shoot several outfits in a natural outdoor setting (golden gate park, or one of the parks in mountain view or palo alto). The shoot will be around 4 hours, with two breaks of a half an hour in between, so you'll be there about 5 hours.
I just want all the photos straight up, no photoshop or touchups required. If it works out well, I will rehire you for 2 or 3 more shoots (same details) over the next month.

Fashion photographer would be great, but not necessary - please email me your website, or several examples of your photography. Also, let me know if you have a polarizer - I am looking for natural photographs, models do not look strained, think free people catalogs, the outdoor shots. Also think, the 5:30 sun behind the model, using flash. This shoot can range from simple detail shots of clothing to artsy shots with lighting effects and compositionally engaging poses. The clothing will be unique, earthy, tribal yoga.

Shoot will be sometime next week, I'm flexible on the day, though the time should be 1pm to 5pm or 2pm to 6pm - I want to get the warm light of the late sun."
__________________
www.samlinvillephotography.com
Old Apr-05-2012, 12:41 AM
#2
Svennie is offline Svennie
Major grins
Svennie's Avatar
I'm missing the part where he/she states: 'This is an excellent way to improve your portfolio!"
__________________
www.warris.nl
www.warris.nl/blog
Old Apr-09-2012, 05:40 AM
#3
johng is offline johng
Sports Shooter
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where the poster indicated the shoot would be for free. There was, in fact, no mention of compensation. That COULD be bad, but it's an assumption the poster doesn't want to pay. If the poster does want to pay, I don't really see a problem with the ad - provides lots of information about what the customer wants.
Old Apr-09-2012, 06:56 AM
#4
Sam is online now Sam OP
San Jose CA
Sam's Avatar
SORRY!!!!

I guess I missed copying / posting the part where they offer to pay $100.00 for the shoot.

The $100.00 part was the reason for my posting.

Sam
__________________
www.samlinvillephotography.com
Old Apr-09-2012, 08:31 AM
#5
WillCAD is offline WillCAD
Grinning Buffoon
WillCAD's Avatar
$100 for 5 hours work, or $20 per hour.

Y'know, that's a living wage, and a lot of people seem to think that's all a photographer should be paid - a living wage. They completely forget the many years of training, practice, and experience, not to mention inate talent, that a professional photographer brings to the job. Kinda like thinking that Nascar drivers ought to get $20 an hour, because, "All they do is drive a car. I can do that!"

I wonder what kind of photos they'll get for that rate.
__________________
What I said when I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time: "The wide ain't wide enough and the zoom don't zoom enough!"
Old Apr-09-2012, 11:38 AM
#6
johng is offline johng
Sports Shooter
I agree with the assertion that a photographer cannot make a living wage making deals like that. But, it's also hypocritical to suggest people shouldn't ask. For example, how many members here contracted a professional web developer to build their website? Or did they cut costs by using the customization options dgrin made available?

I'll be the first to admit I wasn't going to pay a web developer. Sam, did you have a web developer custom code your website? They have to make a living too.

Or what about tax professionals? I know I take advantage of on-line software for doing taxes - $18 is a lot less than what a tax professional charges. But I, as a consumer, am not motivated by keeping the tax professional employed.

I suggest the reason many people don't hire custom web developers is the same people try to get free or discount photographic services:
1. Perceived value is low
2. There are enough providers for free/discount where the results are "good enough".

If we put our own purchasing decisions under the microscope we often find we do the same type of thing the poster of this advertisement is doing. And yet we're shocked when consumers of our photographic services/producs mirror that behavior.
Old Apr-09-2012, 01:11 PM
#7
WillCAD is offline WillCAD
Grinning Buffoon
WillCAD's Avatar
You make a valid point, John, but the ad that Art references is kinda like this:

"I'm looking someone to do a custom paint job on my classic 1969 GTO. If all goes well, it should take a day, maybe two. I just want the car painted, straight up, no tune-up or body work required. If it works out well, I will rehire you for 2 or 3 more paint jobs over the next month.

Professional painter would be great, but not necessary. Please email me your web site, or several examples of previous automotive paint jobs. Also, let me know if you have an airbrush setup - I am looking for factory-looking paint, cars do not look "repainted", think Pimp My Ride or West Coast Customs. Also think, the clearcoat should be put on in 4 coats, with the windshield taped off, using an airbrush. The images on the cars can range from simple flames to artsy images with dragons and compositionally engaging scenes. The scenes will be unique, earthy, tribal yoga.

Paint job will be sometime next week, I'm flexible on the day, though the time should be 1pm-5pm or 2pm-6pm - I want the car to dry overnight before you take the tape off the windshield.

I'm willing to pay $100."


Not a great-sounding deal, is it?
__________________
What I said when I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time: "The wide ain't wide enough and the zoom don't zoom enough!"
Old Apr-09-2012, 01:51 PM
#8
johng is offline johng
Sports Shooter
WillCad - you really have avoided the question: Do you have a website? If so, did you pay a custom web developer to do so, ad the going rate of say $50 an hour for his/her development work? If not, why is it OK for you to not support the 'going wage' for a web developer but someone wanting photography services on the cheap?

I would also suggest that your scenario isn't similar because the pool of potential suppliers is much smaller. The pool of people that paint cars is much smaller than the pool of people that take photos.

I am absolutely on board that if a person is trying to make a career out of photography, that $100 gig is a bad business decision. No argument there whatsoever. I would never suggest a person should take that gig. All I'm suggesting is that it is hypocritical on a lot of photographers parts to suggest a person WANTING something on the cheap shouldn't ask for it when we all do the exact same thing in our own buying decisions.

I happen to like the web designer one because it's easy for photographers to say: "it just isn't worth $1500 for a web developer - I need to save money and can do it on my own or use smugmug and get results that are "good enough"" it's the same thing.

Or how many buy items made in China or Korea where people are working in sweat shops? Most of us do. But when people want photography on the cheap that hits a little close to home.

And hey, what about lambasting people for using free software like Gimp - software engineers have to make a living too. We shouldn't use freeware - that hurts the software industry -right? But, that's ok since we're not software engineers. It's only when it comes to photography that we have to protect the wages of the industry.
Old Apr-09-2012, 04:09 PM
#9
Sam is online now Sam OP
San Jose CA
Sam's Avatar
johng,

You be missing the boat buddy.

As for me, I have a great tax guy and I pays him. As for the web, I did it myself only doable with great help from the Smugmug peoples. No I did not ask anyone to do it for free or cheap.

Doing something yourself is far different than trying to get professional services at a ridiculous price. I also think it would be at least semi reasonable to post something like "we have no budget but are hoping to find a student or an amateur willing to help and we can provide lunch and a $100.00 stipend"

As for $20.00 per hour............that could be OK, for labor only. But do you think it's reasonable to commit / use 10 K to 20K of equipment as well as your time and expertise? This shoot is a day shoot no matter how you try to pare it down. You can't even rent an entry level camera and one lens for $100.00.

I do understand the pre-madona (sp) attitude that can be seen on some photographers forums, but I don't think this comes close to that.

Wanting something at a bargain price is one thing, being ridiculous is another. A reasonable day rate for local photographers could be between say $800.00 and $1600.00 per day depending. trying to find one for $400.00 or $500.00 would while cheap and way out in the outfield would be in the ball park.

Remember they wanted someone with a website, examples of work, hopefully with fashion experience, artsy lighting, with the promise of more work.

The thought behind my post was to yet again show how little photography and photographers are thought of and valued.

Sam
__________________
www.samlinvillephotography.com
Old Apr-09-2012, 05:59 PM
#10
WillCAD is offline WillCAD
Grinning Buffoon
WillCAD's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johng View Post
WillCad - you really have avoided the question: Do you have a website? If so, did you pay a custom web developer to do so, ad the going rate of say $50 an hour for his/her development work? If not, why is it OK for you to not support the 'going wage' for a web developer but someone wanting photography services on the cheap?

I would also suggest that your scenario isn't similar because the pool of potential suppliers is much smaller. The pool of people that paint cars is much smaller than the pool of people that take photos.

I am absolutely on board that if a person is trying to make a career out of photography, that $100 gig is a bad business decision. No argument there whatsoever. I would never suggest a person should take that gig. All I'm suggesting is that it is hypocritical on a lot of photographers parts to suggest a person WANTING something on the cheap shouldn't ask for it when we all do the exact same thing in our own buying decisions.

I happen to like the web designer one because it's easy for photographers to say: "it just isn't worth $1500 for a web developer - I need to save money and can do it on my own or use smugmug and get results that are "good enough"" it's the same thing.

Or how many buy items made in China or Korea where people are working in sweat shops? Most of us do. But when people want photography on the cheap that hits a little close to home.

And hey, what about lambasting people for using free software like Gimp - software engineers have to make a living too. We shouldn't use freeware - that hurts the software industry -right? But, that's ok since we're not software engineers. It's only when it comes to photography that we have to protect the wages of the industry.
The issue is not "hire a pro or do it yourself."

The issue is "he wants to hire a pro for a lot less than any pro charges."

You can't buy a brand-new car for $400.

You can't buy a brand-new house for $4000.

You can't hire a pro photographer for a 5-hour fashion shoot for $100.
__________________
What I said when I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time: "The wide ain't wide enough and the zoom don't zoom enough!"
Old Apr-09-2012, 09:17 PM
#11
RyanS is offline RyanS
Always Learning
RyanS's Avatar
DOCTOR NEEDED for 4 hr surgery - $100 (lower nob hill)
I'm looking for a doctor to remove my appendix in a natural outdoor setting (golden gate park, or one of the parks in mountain view or palo alto). The surgery will be around 4 hours, with two breaks of a half an hour in between, so you'll be there about 5 hours.
I just want the appendix straight up, no liver or kidney required. If it works out well, I will rehire you for 2 or 3 more surgeries (same details) over the next month.

Actual surgeon would be great, but not necessary - please email me your website, or several examples of your surgery. Also, let me know if you have a scalpel - I am looking for natural cuts, scars do not look strained, think biology textbook, the ones where patients live. Also think, the 5:30 sun behind the doctor, using sponges. This surgery can range from simple detail cutting of appendix to artsy surgery with sutcher effects and actual sterile instruments. The clothing will be scrubs, gloves, tribal mask.

Surgery will be sometime next week, I'm flexible on the day, though the time should be 1pm to 5pm or 2pm to 6pm - I want to get the warm light of the late sun.
Old Apr-10-2012, 02:22 AM
#12
Glort is offline Glort
Major grins
The ad doesn't say they want a PRO photographer. To me it says they really want someone with a decent camera that can make a picture "Turn out " with it.
The instructions indicate to me that they know they are not going to get a pro fashion photographer, just a button clicker ant that's why they are trying to give the the ideas....... they probably know the button pusher won't have any themselves!


I really think it's a bit useless comparing this ad to other professions. Myself, I can think of any trade that is as over saturated and has as many amateurs dabbling in it as the photography game so it is unique in that factor.
One other thing of significance is that the average Joe Public couldn't tell a fashion pic taken by Helmut Newton or The parent from their sons footy team with the "Good camera with the big lens".

As described in the ad, I'd say the end use for the pics is a throw away leaflet for some local designer or store not a spread for D&G in Harpers or Vouge.
They are also advertising for their shooter in craigslist not with a top agency. I'll bet that there simply isn't the money to hire a fashion shooter especially if this business is a start up or for some design student so should that in a perfect world for shooters mean if they can't have the job done by a full pro they shouldn't get any pics at all or they have to take them themselves on their phones? Would that actually help us or the situation of our undervalued profession?

It's all well and good to shake your head at this sort of thing but in reality, isn't a forum like this promoting that very thing?
I mean how many people come on here every week and want to know how much to charge for the gig they landed through having an SLR with a kit lens and being in the right place at the right time or wanting to know how to shoot a wedding, event or whatever that is a pro's job but people all chime in to help them out?
Seems hypocritical to encourage non pros under the guise of training them when this Job would be exactly what these same people would be interested in.

Photography has never been more over saturated with the " I got a camera for Christmas and now I'm a photographer" brigade than ever before. I personally can't see there is anything that can be done about it.
What I have also seen is some of these damn amateurs ARE good, Real good. They have the time and interest to put into shoots and especially editing that most pros would find nonviable and they are not all without talent or produce crap.

Our situation and profession is unique. No one is an amateur Dentist or builds houses on the weekends for a bit of extra cash to go with their 9-5 job so these sorts of things should be hardly surprising and they are hardly new. I don't condone it or like it but I also don't have answers to many of the questions the situation raises.
I also don't see the point of complaining about it.

I would bet I could re-write that ad and get the Shooter to pay ME the $100 if I wrote that I would be providing the clothing and models and they could use the pics in their folio and as tear sheets to get more work and I was giving them the opportunity to shoot a professional layout to show their real talent they haven't had the opportunity to demonstrate before.
Hell, I'll bet I could get the wanna be's to Tender for the gig to take pics for me and get a lot MORE than $100. Only thing wrong with the person that wrote the ad was they weren't clever enough!

There is no question photography is undervalued but before getting annoyed about it, perhaps we should be all asking ourselves if we are not a little guilty of contributing to that situation directly or otherwise and if we actually have a solution to it. ?
Old Apr-10-2012, 05:51 AM
#13
johng is offline johng
Sports Shooter
RyanS - if you really believe the perceived value of a photographer is the same as the perceived value of a surgeon, time to go back to business school. It's precisely that egotism that crushes many businesses. As with any other unregulated business, the market decides what photographic services are worth. And, just like mom & pop photography businesses decide not to spend the money on a professional web developer, small time operations in other areas decide they're not going to pay going rate for professional photographers. In both cases, the end product is less than it could be if a professional were employed. But in both cases, the result is "good enough" to meet the customer's needs. Again, photographers want to think they're special and different. They're really not. They're subject to the exact same market influences everyone else is. It's simply amplified because, as Glort indicated (and we all know) there is a glut of people doing photography as a hobby.

But again, my point is it's hypocritical of all the photographers to bemoan clients wanting more for less when those same photographers exhibit the same behavior themselves.

What's comical is the notion that the person placing the add is bad for doing so. They don't "respect" photographers. Guess what? If they get results that are "good enough" for their business purposes and they only pay $100 instead of $800 that makes them a good business person. Of course, they could get results they are not happy with and then have to pay the $800. But it is arrogant to assume they won't be able to get results they are happy with without spending the $800. It's that whole 'perceived value' again. Sometimes a customer needs an $800 product and sometimes they just need a $!00 product. Sam didn't need the $1500 website - he was happy with the website he built using the free help of dgrin support. I doubt there is a web designer forum where someone is complaining a photographer used a cheap (dgrin resources) solution to meet his business needs. That bit of hubris seems to be something photographers have a strangle hold on. And Ryan, if you think what you do as a photographer is akin to what a surgeon does, I can't help ya bud.
Old Apr-10-2012, 06:44 AM
#14
Nikolai is offline Nikolai
Darth SLR
Nikolai's Avatar
Sam,
why on earth are you surprized? It's a craigslist, for crying out loud... People don't look for top quality there, they are looking for bargains...
However, I concur to the fact that the vast majority of the population have no idea how much investment/training/skills are going into a real good photogrpahy work and more often than not a "good enough" snapshot (which most of the today's cameras can provide in A mode) is all they need. Just like for the same vast majority AppleBee's steak is good enough. Sure, Smith & Wollensky's is *much* better. Yet many survive without it. And I can't say I blame them. True art has never been a commodity, it a realm of the few. Very few.
__________________
"May the f/stop be with you!"
Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
member: NAPP, PPA, partner: Adobe
Comprehending life, universe and everything - one pixel at a time
Old Apr-10-2012, 07:08 AM
#15
AceCo55 is offline AceCo55
Aussie Grinner
AceCo55's Avatar
Glort: +1 as always (or 99% of always!) you have provided a well thought out and "grounded" commentary on operating a real life business

johnG: +1

So true. Again people may not like the situation but they had better deal with it, 'cos that's the way it is.
Pros have to value add - provided something that the buyer wants enough and can't get elsewhere.
Some people will NEVER employ a pro ... they are not your market.
I don't think expensive department stores spend too much time worrying about discount stores ... different market/different clientele
__________________
My opinion does not necessarily make it true. What you do with my opinion is entirely up to you.
www.acecootephotography.com
Old Apr-10-2012, 08:33 AM
#16
Sam is online now Sam OP
San Jose CA
Sam's Avatar
Thank y'all for your thoughts. Please note this was never intended to be a deep intellectual issue. I only wanted to share what I thought (still think) is a totally ridiculous offer demonstrating the public's lack of understanding and appreciation for photography services.

I was / am simply sharing and maybe a little venting to my internet friends. Nothing new, nothing deep.

As a comparison of costs here in the Peoples Republic of California you would be lucky to get a day laborer for a $100.00 a day.

Nikolia,

I have no idea what a Smith & Wollensky's is. I will guess I am missing out on a great steak.

Sam
__________________
www.samlinvillephotography.com
Old Apr-10-2012, 09:15 AM
#17
Nikolai is offline Nikolai
Darth SLR
Nikolai's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Nikolai,
I have no idea what a Smith & Wollensky's is. I will guess I am missing out on a great steak.
Sam
Not much of an East Coast guy, I take it?
But yeah, I meant an upscale, top notch, high quality, very expensive product vs "barely good enough" one.
__________________
"May the f/stop be with you!"
Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
member: NAPP, PPA, partner: Adobe
Comprehending life, universe and everything - one pixel at a time
Old Apr-10-2012, 09:16 AM
#18
Pure Energy is offline Pure Energy
Major grins
Hey Glort.. can you write me a craigslist ad so that someone will pay me for the privilege of doing quality body and paint work on my vintage vehicle? If I like their work, I have more vehicles that need body and paint as well. If the ad is successful, you won't ever have to worry about renting a car whenever you're in my town.

It's hard to compare photography to a lot of other professions which is why I'm starting to think photography is like the lottery:
  • Accepting that low or non-paying job will lead to greater rewards.
  • Hiring a photographer with little or no pay will yield some satisfactory or great shots.
To the person (and lottery company) that truly knows they are screwing over the other party... it's just business for them. There's always another sucker around the corner.

Just in case the above ad doesn't catch any suckers, I'm also looking for a mechanic looking to get experience doing quality work on my vintage rice rocket motorcycle. If I like their work, I have other vintage vehicles that will need work in the future. This could lead to being a prestigious mechanic on some of the world's most desirable vehicles.
Old Apr-10-2012, 09:27 AM
#19
johng is offline johng
Sports Shooter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
I only wanted to share what I thought (still think) is a totally ridiculous offer demonstrating the public's lack of understanding and appreciation for photography services.
Sam - let me ask a question: if the person who placed that add actually gets a product they are happy with for $100-200 (let's assume they were "low balling" and willing to go up to $200), what have they misunderstood? Depending on expectations, the buyer may be perfectly happy with what a hobbyist can produce. And, to some hobbyists, the joy of actually getting $100 for something they enjoy doing anyway is just fine. The notion the price is ridiculous is predicated on one of two factors being true:
1) a hobbyist is incapable of producing results good enough to satisfy the client
2) a hobbyist would turn their nose up at $100 for the glory of seeing their photos used.

We don't really know the client's standard but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there wasn't a hobbyist that would jump at the chance and still be good enough to satisfy the client. That hobbyist doesn't need to earn a living and the customer may not need quality a professional charging $800 could provide.

Heck, in the sports shooting world you have hobbyists who are good shooters trading their work for a sideline pass. It happens. The publications aren't ignorant. They've made a business decision that the product is "good enough" given the price - free. Yep there are risks and sometimes they get bit. But the sports shooting professionals that laughed that situation off are the ones finding themselves out of a job.
Old Apr-10-2012, 12:59 PM
#20
Glort is offline Glort
Major grins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Energy View Post
Hey Glort.. can you write me a craigslist ad so that someone will pay me for the privilege of doing quality body and paint work on my vintage vehicle?
Sure!

Just place the ad somewhere that has thousands of people that enjoy painting vehicles for a hobby and invest thousands of bucks in equipment ( often the very same as the pros' have) so they can big note themselves on that as much as the work they produce with it.
It would also help if you placed the ad somewhere where there were loads of magazines with ads from huge stores all offering equipment at cut prices and loads of the stuff being traded on ebay as well.

If there are unlimited websites and forums on car painting all offering advise for those that want to paint a car for the first time having only ever sprayed the odd door or bonnet before, that will help as well.
Of course if you can find somewhere that materials cost nothing once the equipment is purchased and places where people can post up pics of their work for others to comment on and blow sunshine up their backsides that will make finding someone suitable a lot easier as well.

Preferably you should want to use the car is some sort of ad campaign that will be seen everywhere so the guy that does the job can point it out to their friends to tell them they are the one that painted that car and have loads of opportunity to massage their ego accordingly.

Now if you can come up with that, like I said I'll write you and ad where the people will want to pay YOU to paint your car and however many more of them you have.

Of course if you take away just the hobby aspect where people do it for fun, then your probably going to be right out of luck.
Page 1  of  2
1 2
Tell The World!  

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump