Originally Posted by thomasgcampbell As I am not, have never been, and will never be a part of that community, I don't really care. I can't violate the TOS as I never agreed to it. Posting this falls under fair use. But good job of distracting from the real issue with something inconsequential. Screencapping just the pertinent part and posting it saves all the "He didn't really say that" nonsense that would have occurred had I just said "DJ said Smugmug is for amateurs!" and his loyal followers respond with "LIAR!" It seems that the veil has been pulled away from the cult of personality that is David Jay and we are starting to see some of what is really behind that fantastic branding.

Thomas, if it was not you, then where did you find the image, if I may ask? It may be "fair use" from your own legal standpoint, but not someone else's...

BTW I don't intend to distract from a healthy discussion on a subject such as whether or not DJ's teachings are worthwhile, or the relatively harmless question that you asked when posting the screencapture. There is always room for healthy discussion here. However I don't really see how this discussion can be healthy, in fact posting his statements here borders on inflammatory. If I may be so forward to ask, what was your goal in posting the screenshot? To simply get an answer to your question? If that is the case, then you have your answer already. ;-)

Like I said, I ALSO strongly disagree with many things DJ says. I'm simply hoping that "the lynch mob mentality" doesn't happen here at DGrin. Everybody says "oh but I care about the industry too much to just sit back quietly and not speak up"... Really? If people truly cared about fixing the situation, a well-crafted, private message to DJ would go a lot further towards convincing him that he's wrong. Or, a few thousand private messages. But the public one-liner insults and twitter tantrums?? Mostly they just make your "opponent" dislike you even more, or at least refuse to see things your way.

Just some food for thought. I know you probably were NOT trying to start a flame war, I'm just describing how quickly that kinda stuff can happen if we're not careful. Fair enough?

=Matt=

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville Thomas, if it was not you, then where did you find the image, if I may ask? It may be "fair use" from your own legal standpoint, but not someone else's...

It isn't really relevant.

BTW I don't intend to distract from a healthy discussion on a subject such as whether or not DJ's teachings are worthwhile, or the relatively harmless question that you asked when posting the screencapture. There is always room for healthy discussion here. However I don't really see how this discussion can be healthy, in fact posting his statements here borders on inflammatory. If I may be so forward to ask, what was your goal in posting the screenshot? To simply get an answer to your question? If that is the case, then you have your answer already. ;-)

I thought it was outrageous that a Smugmug Artist in Residence would say that about Smugmug. I've been with Smugmug since Sept 2005 and clearly remember when DJ became an A-I-R as it coincided with when I started getting interested in shooting weddings.

Like I said, I ALSO strongly disagree with many things DJ says. I'm simply hoping that "the lynch mob mentality" doesn't happen here at DGrin. Everybody says "oh but I care about the industry too much to just sit back quietly and not speak up"... Really? If people truly cared about fixing the situation, a well-crafted, private message to DJ would go a lot further towards convincing him that he's wrong. Or, a few thousand private messages. But the public one-liner insults and twitter tantrums?? Mostly they just make your "opponent" dislike you even more, or at least refuse to see things your way. Just some food for thought. I know you probably were NOT trying to start a flame war, I'm just describing how quickly that kinda stuff can happen if we're not careful. Fair enough? =Matt=

Fair enough, but all that could have been said in private, too, eh?

Originally Posted by thomasgcampbell It isn't really relevant.

Maybe not to you, but it is relevant to the moderators / owners of the community of which the TOS were violated. Of course you aren't obligated to divulge the information if you don't feel like it; I just thought I'd ask in case the answer was as easy as "saw it floating around Twitter" or something.

Originally Posted by thomasgcampbell I thought it was outrageous that a Smugmug Artist in Residence would say that about Smugmug. I've been with Smugmug since Sept 2005 and clearly remember when DJ became an A-I-R as it coincided with when I started getting interested in shooting weddings.

I totally agree with you. Just making sure you're a concerned community member and not a troll. I have a lot of respect for anyone who has been using SmugMug since 2005; I've been around since then myself and I value our community. It was just suspect that you joined DGrin just to make that one single post. I'm sure you can understand that!

Originally Posted by thomasgcampbell Fair enough, but all that could have been said in private, too, eh?

Well like I said, I just wanted to make it clear what this community is about, and let everyone know there are better ways to get a message across than the crucifying currently going on in other communities.

=Matt=

I must be missing something here. Mr. Jay hasn't been active on Dgrin for well over a year now. His total post count of less than 60 seems to indicate that he was never that active here in the first place.

He's found another site that fits his needs better than Smugmug, so what? While its a sign of poor judgement its hardly earthshaking. What is the real issue?

Originally Posted by Harryb I must be missing something here. Mr. Jay hasn't been active on Dgrin for well over a year now. His total post count of less than 60 seems to indicate that he was never that active here in the first place. He's found another site that fits his needs better than Smugmug, so what? While its a sign of poor judgement its hardly earthshaking. What is the real issue?

Totally agreee.

Originally Posted by Harryb I must be missing something here. Mr. Jay hasn't been active on Dgrin for well over a year now. His total post count of less than 60 seems to indicate that he was never that active here in the first place. He's found another site that fits his needs better than Smugmug, so what? While its a sign of poor judgement its hardly earthshaking. What is the real issue?

I think what shocked Thomas so much was the fact that DJ was not just another forum member, but an official artist-in-residence, who appeared to still be one even now / recently, when he made that comment about SmugMug.

Indeed, he's moved on, and this will blow over, and it was a low-blow to say such a thing even though it was in private.

*shrug*

=Matt=

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville I think what shocked Thomas so much was the fact that DJ was not just another forum member, but an official artist-in-residence, who appeared to still be one even now / recently, when he made that comment about SmugMug. Indeed, he's moved on, and this will blow over, and it was a low-blow to say such a thing even though it was in private. *shrug* =Matt=

Sorry, but saying something on an internet forum (even a paid one, whatever the ToS) does not equate to saying it in private.

Personally, I think DJ has a lot of interesting things to say, you just need to filter the good stuff from the marketing and s%!t stirring.

Originally Posted by thomasgcampbell I thought it was outrageous that a Smugmug Artist in Residence would say that about Smugmug. I've been with Smugmug since Sept 2005 and clearly remember when DJ became an A-I-R as it coincided with when I started getting interested in shooting weddings. eh?

Hi Thomas,

I think I can understand some of why the comments he made irritated you. It kind of comes off as a finger pointed at anyone who uses smugmug as being an amateur. I know, as do you that this is absolutely untrue. I know why I originally began hosting via SM (for consistant print quality) and I also know why I still host here. That is due to the outstanding customer service. I have had a few problems with prints over the years, but SM has always responded quick and even maybe overzealous to make things right. Andy Williams is connected to this forum nearly always and if all else fails is only a few pecks of the key oard away. SM has never left me hanging.

I assume you are as loyal to SM as I am and have recieved the sAme type of service. Another reason to be angry about the bashing.

I was moderator here in "weddings" for a stint a couple years ago and so I knew many of the forum members who frequented "weddings" when DJ became AIR. I was hesitant to drink the koolaide and always thought that something didnt seem right. I felt like he was only here to increase his fold and sell his wares rather than truely elevating the photogs that frequent dgrin. But it didnt last long. And. He never truely made any REAL contributions here.

I freely admit that much of what I have learned about digital photography I have learned here in this very forum. I have also, on occasion, gone out of the way to help others grow. And that is really what a good community is about.

The simple truth is that DJ hasnt been an active member in this community for quite awhile. He has moved on.

So has Dgrin.

As anyone the right to free speech ? You all give the man this much free advertising for a statement he made = you are not confident

Originally Posted by Stuart-M Sorry, but saying something on an internet forum (even a paid one, whatever the ToS) does not equate to saying it in private. Personally, I think DJ has a lot of interesting things to say, you just need to filter the good stuff from the marketing and s%!t stirring.

Just because it's the internet, doesn't mean it's public. You enter your credit card information on the internet from time to time, I'd wager; can I have that info? My point being, there is at least a slight hint of "behind closed doors" when you have that many barriers for entry. It may not be as "in private" as a bedroom closet, but it's still a private community by a few standards...

=Matt=

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville Just because it's the internet, doesn't mean it's public.

The reality is that anything you post, anywhere you post it, could become public whether it's private or not.
And that is the point I believe Stuart is making.

Originally Posted by ian408 The reality is that anything you post, anywhere you post it, could become public whether it's private or not. And that is the point I believe Stuart is making.

Indeed. However at this point I think pretty much ever comment is just arguing for the sake of arguing, and this thread has run it's course. Done.

=Matt=

Originally Posted by jwear As anyone the right to free speech ? You all give the man this much free advertising for a statement he made = you are not confident

Not confident in what? In my business? Hardly.

It is pretty clear that Mr. Jay was trashing Smugmug to bolster his own business venture. I was under the impression that Mr. Jay was a paid endorser of Smugmug, so that was highly questionable behavior for him.

I have no clue what you are getting at with the right to free speech. If you have confidence in constitutional law, you shouldn't. No one is saying Mr. Jay doesn't have the right to say whatever he wants. Furthermore, the first amendment applies to the government restricting speech, not other people questioning the wisdom in speaking it.

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville Just because it's the internet, doesn't mean it's public. You enter your credit card information on the internet from time to time, I'd wager; can I have that info? My point being, there is at least a slight hint of "behind closed doors" when you have that many barriers for entry. It may not be as "in private" as a bedroom closet, but it's still a private community by a few standards... =Matt=

When you say something in a group of hundreds? thousands? tens of thousands? of photographers, it is not a private statement.

Originally Posted by jeffreaux2 Hi Thomas, I think I can understand some of why the comments he made irritated you. It kind of comes off as a finger pointed at anyone who uses smugmug as being an amateur. I know, as do you that this is absolutely untrue.

I don't think that is it as much as it came across as backstabbing some really great people (SM staff) that treated him well and probably paid him well. If someone wants to disparage a group of photographers as diverse in talent and skill sets as Smugmug users, they are only making themself look like they are either ignorant or a liar. You simply cannot group the talent and skill level all SM users with a statement like that.

I assume you are as loyal to SM as I am and have recieved the sAme type of service. Another reason to be angry about the bashing.

Absolutely. I have found the SM staff to be fantastic when I have a question and in person at WPPI.

I was moderator here in "weddings" for a stint a couple years ago and so I knew many of the forum members who frequented "weddings" when DJ became AIR. I was hesitant to drink the koolaide and always thought that something didnt seem right. I felt like he was only here to increase his fold and sell his wares rather than truely elevating the photogs that frequent dgrin. But it didnt last long. And. He never truely made any REAL contributions here.

When I posted here the other day, I went back and looked at his individual posts. He disparaged a member or two and spent the rest of his time pimping ShowIt and trying to get SM users to integrate ShowIt into the SM website.

The simple truth is that DJ hasnt been an active member in this community for quite awhile. He has moved on. So has Dgrin.

All for the better. I had been somewhat active years ago, but forgot my username/password, so just created this. I am more active elsewhere, but still come to DGrin to search for SM answers fairly frequently. This is a very good resource.

Originally Posted by Matthew Saville I think what shocked Thomas so much was the fact that DJ was not just another forum member, but an official artist-in-residence, who appeared to still be one even now / recently, when he made that comment about SmugMug.

Very well said.

This is interesting :)

Originally Posted by thomasgcampbell As I am not, have never been, and will never be a part of that community, I don't really care. I can't violate the TOS as I never agreed to it. Posting this falls under fair use. But good job of distracting from the real issue with something inconsequential. Screencapping just the pertinent part and posting it saves all the "He didn't really say that" nonsense that would have occurred had I just said "DJ said Smugmug is for amateurs!" and his loyal followers respond with "LIAR!" It seems that the veil has been pulled away from the cult of personality that is David Jay and we are starting to see some of what is really behind that fantastic branding.

Hello everyone,

this is my first post here.

It will probably look like I am here for the benefit of my pubic dispute with David jay - that's not the case. It's already public enough. I stumbled across this site quite by accident as I was looking at SmugMug - and I was absolutely astonished to see the content of the screen grab posted earlier.

I'm going to say a few things though, and I really hope it doesn't offend anyone. This is not the "first post" I would have liked. but I suppose things can only get better. I do want to say that my involvement in any photography forum is twofold - to learn from people who are better than me - and to help anyone who is trying to improve at a lower level.

David jay posted some nonsense on his Facebook page the other day, stating that I had became the "go to guy" at OSP. That part was about the only grain of truth in the entire posting - so my point is, I like to be in a forum, both to give and to receive.

Thomas, you posted a link earlier that now doesn't work. It was my wedding images, and a complaint by David Jay, or a follower, resulted in Facebook removing the images, It's supposed to be that after 10 days they can be active again unless he has taken legal action - but still they are down. Strange huh, the man promoting the phrase "Shoot & Share" had my wedding images removed! Why? All the images are now online somewhere else, I won't post the link unless requested to do so.

Matthew - sorry, but I would bet my life that a "well crafted, private message" would make absolutely no difference. As his client, I sent him an email which he dismissed immediately. Unless you message makes him money ...

I don't like conflict - but I am deeply involved in a lot of it with David Jay. My wedding image issue could have been resolved with a simple, polite reply by him. It wasn't. Once my images were online he chose to go onto Facebook and tell his 11,000 plus followers that I had processed my images to make him look bad. Really? There is a definite "poor me, I need some sympathy" to his postings.

I read something the other day that he posted about Pictage banning him, on his birthday of all days, A 27 year old man (at the time) talking about is being "a bummer" that they would do such a thing on his birthday - wow. It seemed so "needy" to me, like the writing of a 14 year old. Just my opinion though.

A few days ago he made another Facebook post - told his 11,000 followers he "thought they should know the truth" Then he completely distorted everything, again stating that the images were either manipulated, or not his. On the suggestion of someone who posted, I offered him the opportunity to show the RAW images, and prove that his claims were true - silence.

Here is the thing - if I post the RAW images to prove my innocence, I open myself up to copyright infringement. So, all I can do is sit here and allow scurrilous remarks to remain on his FB page. You can guess what his followers are saying - I am being portrayed as the devil, and all because I told a man who took $6,5000 from me that I wasn't happy with my wedding photographs.

I am absolutely disgusted by the whole affair, and his handling of the truth. David jay went on to blame both his assistant and his brother for the poor images. What a guy, huh? He stated that his brother had "NEVER picked up a camera" before my wedding day - then why the hell was he shooting me and my bride???

As I look at what he has written I read so much contradiction. Posts stating that he shoots almost 100% on Manual - then The Photo System claiming that people shooting on manual are "clueless". Stuff like that, lots of it. Even a post that suggests using alcohol to smooth out things with a bride if need be.

I'm sorry - starting to rant now. I just wanted to post my agreement to what Thomas said, then it all started to flow. Maybe this will be deleted - that's cool if it comes to that.

I emailed SmugMug yesterday with a question - and I had a reply in something a very short period of time - can't check right now but it may have been around 15 minutes. Very impressive. Then three emails each passed between myself and someone called Doc. These emails were coming out from SmugMug at a little after 7am! On Easter Sunday! It didn't seem amateur to me. But then since David Jay has a product to sell, sowing a seed of doubt about SmugMug seems no to be typical of his methods.

I can't change what happened to me - I can't replace my wedding images. But I will pursue David jay for a complete removal of the untrue comments he has made about me, and I will make it my mission to educate anyone new photographer who will listen, the folly of following The Photo System. If I have to create a hundred website with better advice, I will. And let's be honest, the advice won't have to be that great to be better.

From here on in I hope that I can be a part of this community. Thanks for reading.

Hugh Anderson.

Dgrin is a place to discuss photography. This is not the place to air personal feuds, vendettas, etc. I have no idea what the dispute is about and I really don't give a damn. Dgrin doesn't have many rules but one is "Personal attacks will not be tolerated".

This is not the place for this personal dispute.

Originally Posted by Harryb Dgrin is a place to discuss photography. This is not the place to air personal feuds, vendettas, etc. I have no idea what the dispute is about and I really don't give a damn. Dgrin doesn't have many rules but one is "Personal attacks will not be tolerated". This is not the place for this personal dispute.

Harry,

This whole thread has been a discussion about "David Jay" and the comments I have read don't seem all that positive. One could even say they were "personal attacks"

Based on my reading of this thread Hugh's comments don't seem out of line with the general comments. On that basis I might be inclined to give the new guy a break, and try a kinder more gentle approach by simply saying we really don't want this degenerate any further.

Wait and see what his future posts are like, then if necessary go with the stronger language.

Sam

Originally Posted by Sam Harry, This whole thread has been a discussion about "David Jay" and the comments I have read don't seem all that positive. One could even say they were "personal attacks" Based on my reading of this thread Hugh's comments don't seem out of line with the general comments. On that basis I might be inclined to give the new guy a break, and try a kinder more gentle approach by simply saying we really don't want this degenerate any further. Wait and see what his future posts are like, then if necessary go with the stronger language. Sam

Sorry Sam but this thread was resurrected to attack Mr. Jay. I see nothing here about photography. All I see is a personal dispute. It ends now.