Oh groan - Page 3

timk519 · Nov-03-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiddy

It's also the factor that some people that have only been told their work is amazing are going to get butt hurt when someone professional says... eh you should work on x, y, z.

I saw this on one of those "got talent" shows - two young couples went to sing a Brady bunch / Partridge Family song, and got booed off the stage.

They were completely dumbfounded, because that had never happened to them before.

It's sad when people find out the hard way and in a public venue like that.

bmoreshooter · Nov-03-2009, 06:09 PM

While many of the points made as to what makes a "professional" are true, i prefer to define it a lot simpler. A professional is someone that can deliver a job as promised at the rate charged under any circumstances. You can be at the bottom rung of the professional photography ladder but as long as you deliver as promised, you've met the clients needs. You can work one day a month or every weekend as longs as your clients know what your promising and that is what they get. There are people in all walks of life that are good or bad at what they do, the choice to hire either is up to the person doing the hireing. Hireing a friend with a camera is a choice and you usually get what you pay for. For those of you just starting out I truely wish you nothing but the best. All I ask is that you be as honest as possible with your future clients and yourself. I've done this as a full time profession for almost 30 years now and while I realize I may not be the best available, my clients know exactly what to expect from me and I have never in my entire career had one single disappointed or disgruntled client. My ability to perform makes me a professional photographer, not how much money I have made.

divamum · Nov-04-2009, 04:42 AM

Matt and Swartzy, I don't disagree - I was playing at least a little bit of devil's advocate there (believe me, having been a freelance artist for many years I DO understand at a very real level) You both make excellent points, particularly that it's not ONLY about talent/skill, but how to market it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blurmore

I think the true measure of a professional is how one conducts oneself regardless of what they are getting paid. I treat every wedding with the same weight whether it has my name on it or I am photographing as a sub-contractor or as a second photographer, because when it comes down to it, you are only as good as the last job you shot, and the last client you impressed whether they are YOUR client or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmoreshooter

A professional is someone that can deliver a job as promised at the rate charged under any circumstances. You can be at the bottom rung of the professional photography ladder but as long as you deliver as promised, you've met the clients needs. You can work one day a month or every weekend as longs as your clients know what your promising and that is what they get.

These are two of the best statements I've ever read regarding professionalism and what it means to artists.

zoomer · Nov-04-2009, 05:11 AM

I think false praise can be very damaging to someone must starting out to get a realistic evaluation of their true ability. But then each person viewing photos on here has a different standard.
For some only the very best as in world class is good enough, for other pretty good is good enough. Depends on your aspirations I guess.

As far as all the wannabees, it takes a huge jump in experience, study, practice and equipment to make the jump from a wannabe to someone who can take truly good photos in ANY situation.

I see it everytime I go to the park. 20 to 30 photographers that have no business taking money for their photography and 2 or 3 who actually know what they are doing. It is easy to tell one from the other in just a minute of watching them, set up their clients and the interaction.

Clients who are educated enough to know good photography from bad will always hire a photographer that can produce the real deal as far as excellent photos and will pay the money for the service. Lets just hope that continues....

Yeah we all started somewhere but practice on your friends and family for free until you have achieved a level of quality that really enables you to charge money for your work. Or second shoot with someone else who knows what they are doing to so the quality or lack thereof of your photos will not affect the quality of the photos being provided to the client.

Ed911 · Nov-04-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swartzy

You missed the point Tim. It's not how I feel or convey or sell "MY" work or value...and trust me, I've been in sales and marketing/self employment for 30+ years. What statement I am making is a "reality check". Just because someone thinks they can fly doesn't mean they can. Nor can anyone compete in any market that is saturated, providing low prices and adequate work. Many clients have no clue what a superior product (and because it's the Internet I may have to explain what this means) is..that's why they need educated. Therefore the types of potential client shifts and as Josh recognized, the low end is no longer in the scope of the serious professional...and another reason, those who are in the middle are vying for the same work. The higher end market will always exist.

I was simply pointing out the obvious. IF 1 out of 10 people have a DSLR, they in turn know at least 10 people who "have been wanting to have photos of their family"...and instead of finding a Pro....who gets it.....FOR FREE?????

Couldn't have said it better...

The DSLR...the new point and shoot that makes everyone a potential wedding photograher...

Blurmore · Nov-05-2009, 05:16 AM

Ya know,

I'd really like to remove the equipment factor from this discussion but it is impossible, so I will riff on a fantasy I have occasionally had about attending a wedding as a guest. When I'm invited to a wedding as a guest, I don't bring a DSLR. I bring a Canon t-90 loaded with slide film, an 85 f1.8 and a 28 f2.8 and a Minolta Autocord loaded with B&W I can push. I don't bring any flashes. I usually give the slides to the bride and groom in a retro push thru stack viewer as a wedding gift (sometimes years later). But I'd LIKE to think that if the couple's pro photographer flaked I could take bangin wedding photos with ALMOST any camera in the room. I remember working a wedding at the Ritz Carlton in DC back in the day (like 2002) where there was a guest with a Leica m6 around his neck. He stayed out of our way, and besides commenting that we were doing a good job, didn't barrage us with questions or talk of equipment. I know however that if something happened, if WE flaked, he could make great, timeless images with that Leica, and 50mm Summicron.

Megs14 · Nov-05-2009, 06:35 AM

Can I ask... what do people do that don't have a lot of money or who live in very rural areas without many options? I live in a town of 8,000 and the next biggest town is 2 1/2 hours away. Needless to say, there are no really good options for a photographer here, not to mention that most people around here have very limited budgets. I have not done a wedding myself yet, but I have been a second shooter a few times at weddings in other areas of the state to get practice. I agree that you really need to know what you are doing, weddings are on of the most important days of people's lives. But... sometimes people don't have many options.
Plus, really good photographers have nothing to worry about. Why feel threatened? People with the most money to spend get the best service, it's just the way it is.

divamum · Nov-05-2009, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blurmore

Ya know,

I'd really like to remove the equipment factor from this discussion but it is impossible, so I will riff on a fantasy I have occasionally had about attending a wedding as a guest. When I'm invited to a wedding as a guest, I don't bring a DSLR. I bring a Canon t-90 loaded with slide film, an 85 f1.8 and a 28 f2.8 and a Minolta Autocord loaded with B&W I can push. I don't bring any flashes. I usually give the slides to the bride and groom in a retro push thru stack viewer as a wedding gift (sometimes years later). But I'd LIKE to think that if the couple's pro photographer flaked I could take bangin wedding photos with ALMOST any camera in the room. I remember working a wedding at the Ritz Carlton in DC back in the day (like 2002) where there was a guest with a Leica m6 around his neck. He stayed out of our way, and besides commenting that we were doing a good job, didn't barrage us with questions or talk of equipment. I know however that if something happened, if WE flaked, he could make great, timeless images with that Leica, and 50mm Summicron.

Which just further goes to demonstrate your own professionalism and top-flight skill set. Srsly, Blur - you're a class act

Nov-05-2009, 05:16 AM	#46
Blurmore Goofy Grin Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mobtown Posts: 833	Ya know, I'd really like to remove the equipment factor from this discussion but it is impossible, so I will riff on a fantasy I have occasionally had about attending a wedding as a guest. When I'm invited to a wedding as a guest, I don't bring a DSLR. I bring a Canon t-90 loaded with slide film, an 85 f1.8 and a 28 f2.8 and a Minolta Autocord loaded with B&W I can push. I don't bring any flashes. I usually give the slides to the bride and groom in a retro push thru stack viewer as a wedding gift (sometimes years later). But I'd LIKE to think that if the couple's pro photographer flaked I could take bangin wedding photos with ALMOST any camera in the room. I remember working a wedding at the Ritz Carlton in DC back in the day (like 2002) where there was a guest with a Leica m6 around his neck. He stayed out of our way, and besides commenting that we were doing a good job, didn't barrage us with questions or talk of equipment. I know however that if something happened, if WE flaked, he could make great, timeless images with that Leica, and 50mm Summicron. __________________ http://blog.jasonknauer.com

Nov-05-2009, 06:35 AM	#47
Megs14 Megs14 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 21	Can I ask... what do people do that don't have a lot of money or who live in very rural areas without many options? I live in a town of 8,000 and the next biggest town is 2 1/2 hours away. Needless to say, there are no really good options for a photographer here, not to mention that most people around here have very limited budgets. I have not done a wedding myself yet, but I have been a second shooter a few times at weddings in other areas of the state to get practice. I agree that you really need to know what you are doing, weddings are on of the most important days of people's lives. But... sometimes people don't have many options. Plus, really good photographers have nothing to worry about. Why feel threatened? People with the most money to spend get the best service, it's just the way it is. __________________ 46 North Photography Megan McHatten www.46north.com

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Nov-03-2009, 06:09 PM	#42
bmoreshooter Major grins Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 169	While many of the points made as to what makes a "professional" are true, i prefer to define it a lot simpler. A professional is someone that can deliver a job as promised at the rate charged under any circumstances. You can be at the bottom rung of the professional photography ladder but as long as you deliver as promised, you've met the clients needs. You can work one day a month or every weekend as longs as your clients know what your promising and that is what they get. There are people in all walks of life that are good or bad at what they do, the choice to hire either is up to the person doing the hireing. Hireing a friend with a camera is a choice and you usually get what you pay for. For those of you just starting out I truely wish you nothing but the best. All I ask is that you be as honest as possible with your future clients and yourself. I've done this as a full time profession for almost 30 years now and while I realize I may not be the best available, my clients know exactly what to expect from me and I have never in my entire career had one single disappointed or disgruntled client. My ability to perform makes me a professional photographer, not how much money I have made.

Nov-04-2009, 05:11 AM	#44
zoomer Major grins Join Date: May 2005 Location: Boise Idaho Posts: 1,518	I think false praise can be very damaging to someone must starting out to get a realistic evaluation of their true ability. But then each person viewing photos on here has a different standard. For some only the very best as in world class is good enough, for other pretty good is good enough. Depends on your aspirations I guess. As far as all the wannabees, it takes a huge jump in experience, study, practice and equipment to make the jump from a wannabe to someone who can take truly good photos in ANY situation. I see it everytime I go to the park. 20 to 30 photographers that have no business taking money for their photography and 2 or 3 who actually know what they are doing. It is easy to tell one from the other in just a minute of watching them, set up their clients and the interaction. Clients who are educated enough to know good photography from bad will always hire a photographer that can produce the real deal as far as excellent photos and will pay the money for the service. Lets just hope that continues.... Yeah we all started somewhere but practice on your friends and family for free until you have achieved a level of quality that really enables you to charge money for your work. Or second shoot with someone else who knows what they are doing to so the quality or lack thereof of your photos will not affect the quality of the photos being provided to the client.