Video Codecs, Formats and Conversions

[DavidTO]

Ask questions, and hopefully shed some light on them here!

:deal

[DJ-S1]

Ok, I'll bite. Other threads seemed to recommend Handbrake to compress/convert files. It's free, so the price is right! But I can't get it to work with the avi or wmv files that Windows Movie Maker publishes, so I've been stuck.

Any thoughts on a Windows software solution (preferably freeware)?

[phototristan]

Ok, I'll bite. Other threads seemed to recommend Handbrake to compress/convert files. It's free, so the price is right! But I can't get it to work with the avi or wmv files that Windows Movie Maker publishes, so I've been stuck.

Any thoughts on a Windows software solution (preferably freeware)?

Hi,

Check out MPEG Streamclip:

http://www.squared5.com/

There's a PC and Mac version, it works well in my experience and hey, it's free! :)

Just open your file with it, choose export (I use export as a Quicktime movie), choose h.264. Audio should be AAC 128kps Stereo.

[DJ-S1]

Thanks Tristan, I'll give it a go - :thumb

[jziegler]

Wow, timely new formu and topic for me.

I need to record a couple of quick video clips this weekend and get them on a DVD. My wife is a voice teacher, and one of her students needs an audition DVD. I have arraned to borrow an HD camcorder (Panasonic that records in AVCHD) and need to burn a standard DVD that will play on a regular player. Any tips? I have the software that came with the camcorder avialable, as well as iMovie.

Thanks in advance.

[kc_tinman]

Wow, timely new formu and topic for me.

I need to record a couple of quick video clips this weekend and get them on a DVD. My wife is a voice teacher, and one of her students needs an audition DVD. I have arraned to borrow an HD camcorder (Panasonic that records in AVCHD) and need to burn a standard DVD that will play on a regular player. Any tips? I have the software that came with the camcorder avialable, as well as iMovie.

Thanks in advance.
I have sony hd cam and can burn hd to a regular disc that will play on a blu ray but BREAK A REGULAR DVD PLAYER. . This is according to my manuals as I have not atemped it myself.

[kc_tinman]

I am searching every alternative for HD editing and converting for uploading to web (here & elswhere) and it is rough out here:rofl. I have sony hd cam sr5 (i think) and bought Vegas Plat software (not easy to use yet.. but ill get it I hope) to edit & output hd stuff. I have tried Handbrake software & works smooth but the quicktime video (mpg4) is JERKY... and i tried changing some settings to no avail . Should I get quicktime pro to convert... am trying the squared four tonight that ws mentioned and see what happens 1st. oh yeah... my hd files (AVCHD) have to be converted to mpg2 before inputing them in handbrake.... doesn't that hurt the quality before I even get to the h.264 encoding? Thanks
BTW Vuze,com has hd content that looks great... u can upload hd there. Torrent based

[jziegler]

I have sony hd cam and can burn hd to a regular disc that will play on a blu ray but BREAK A REGULAR DVD PLAYER. . This is according to my manuals as I have not atemped it myself.

I have the manual for the camcorder I'm borrowing. I didn't have a chance to look at it earlier. They have a similar warning about the AVCHD files (may not be able to eject disc they say). But, I read a little more, and I'm in luck. They have a function in their software to create a standard DVD-video disc. Although the MPEG2 export may be slow. Looks like it should be good enough for what I need now.

Thanks for the warning.

[DI-Joe]

Nice timing on the forum.

I'm a bit of a video guru myself, specifically with codec/conversions and directshow filters.

I do a lot of device compatability, so if you're wondering if x-type codec plays on x-type device, go ahead and ask me. :)

I work with everything from cellphone video to 4K(if you have a year to render)

[DavidTO]

Nice timing on the forum.

I'm a bit of a video guru myself, specifically with codec/conversions and directshow filters.

I do a lot of device compatability, so if you're wondering if x-type codec plays on x-type device, go ahead and ask me. :)

I work with everything from cellphone video to 4K(if you have a year to render)


Fantastic! Glad to know we've got you as a resource! :clap

[brent]

Ok, I'll bite. Other threads seemed to recommend Handbrake to compress/convert files. It's free, so the price is right! But I can't get it to work with the avi or wmv files that Windows Movie Maker publishes, so I've been stuck.

Any thoughts on a Windows software solution (preferably freeware)?

Check Out this site for some good freeware
http://www.dvdvideosoft.com/products/dvd/Free-Video-Dub.htm

[Furono]

I work with everything from cellphone video to 4K(if you have a year to render)

DI-Joe:
I'm in Japan and most of our cells use .3gp and a newer variant of .3gp. Do you know of a good free conversion tool to get it in a format for Smugmug?

Thanks

Steve

[DI-Joe]

DI-Joe:
I'm in Japan and most of our cells use .3gp and a newer variant of .3gp. Do you know of a good free conversion tool to get it in a format for Smugmug?

Thanks

Steve

Actually, your best bet is going to be Quicktime Pro. it plays and transcodes 3gp into h.264(for smugmug) seamlessly even on variable framerate files. It's the best solution, so bone up for the Pro version of quicktime! :)

[Furono]

Thanks a bunch DI-Joe. Just what I wanted to know.

Steve

[StevenV]

if you're on a Mac, check out ffmpegX http://homepage.mac.com/major4/
it's a little old I think, but does wonders for me.

[Furono]

StevenV - My only Mac, a notebook, died for good last week. :dunno

I tried a few free converters, none worked that well on Smugmug. Broke down and got Quicktime Pro for Windows which worked wonders for .3gp (thanks to DI-Joe).

Thanks for the tip.

Steve

[ziggy53]

For Windows machines, be sure to try "Super" freeware.

http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html

[DJ-S1]

Super did the trick, thanks Ziggy! One of the more unusual download procedures, though- yikes.

I made a few trial clips as h.264. They look as good as the input files (which aren't that great to begin with) and they are at least half the file size.

My only problem now is the speed I can stream them from Smug. On Auto size, it takes up to 5 minutes to be fully available. At web size it take less time, but I still can't just let it run without having it stop part way through because it can't download it fast enough.

Am I the only one having this problem? It really is preventing me from jumping into videos fully. I need my family to be able to click on a movie and view it right away just like the photos or they get frustrated and give up.

[ziggy53]

Super did the trick, thanks Ziggy! One of the more unusual download procedures, though- yikes.

I made a few trial clips as h.264. They look as good as the input files (which aren't that great to begin with) and they are at least half the file size.

My only problem now is the speed I can stream them from Smug. On Auto size, it takes up to 5 minutes to be fully available. At web size it take less time, but I still can't just let it run without having it stop part way through because it can't download it fast enough.

Am I the only one having this problem? It really is preventing me from jumping into videos fully. I need my family to be able to click on a movie and view it right away just like the photos or they get frustrated and give up.

In order to achieve the level of quality that SmugMug is committed to, and using the codec they chose to use, you would have to resort to some rather extreme measures to resample the video prior to conversion.

YouTube uses both downsampling and a different type of codec that allows faster streaming, but at a major loss in quality. You might consider using YouTube to provide a "teaser" video, and then directing family and friends to SmugMug for better quality.

Otherwise, shorten the video to shorten the download time.

[StevenV]

Thanks Ziggy - I'm going to check out Super this weekend for my college-boy son; they're doing videos for their classes and young-adult worship as well. Does it take care of burning to DVD as well, or just create the VIDEO_TS etc. folders/files?

[ziggy53]

Thanks Ziggy - I'm going to check out Super this weekend for my college-boy son; they're doing videos for their classes and young-adult worship as well. Does it take care of burning to DVD as well, or just create the VIDEO_TS etc. folders/files?

"Super" is a video player and transcoder. In order to create a DVD, you need:

1) Software "burner", which often includes its own transcoder engine.
2) Hardware "burner". (It's surprising how many people think DVD-Rom drives can burn DVDs.)
3) Compatible blank media. It might be DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW or DVD+RW. It must be compatible with both the burner drive and with the target player for presentation.

Typically you would also use a video editor to do basic trimming and corrections prior to burning.

If your computer came with a DVD burner drive, it probably also has burning software installed. I recommend you use that software if possible.

Other decent software comes from Roxio and Nero.

Assuming your burning software can input your video files, it will probably also convert the file format into what it uses for the DVD compilation. In that case, you don't need to run the file through Super first.

If the video files are not compatible with the burner software, then you might have to process the files through Super to get a compatible file format with the burner software.

You probably figured it can get fairly involved and way beyond the scope of this thread, so please look here for additional information:

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/DVD/authoring.html

Just an FYI, I typically record in DV, transfer into the computer using either Canopus or generic IEEE-488 "firewire", edit with Canopus, Premiere or Vegas Video, and then burn with the drive and software that came with the machine, in this case "muvee autoproducer" (yuck) or "MyDVD" (double-yuck). I also record back to DV and then transfer DV into a stand-alone DVD recorder, which works pretty well.

[StevenV]

good summary; I'm familiar with most of it (I do this often on my Mac (using a combination of FinalCut, ffMpegx, DVD Studio Pro & Toast)), I was hoping need some pointers for my son who's using Windows. If your computer came with a DVD burner drive, it probably also has burning software installed. I recommend you use that software if possible.There's the problem; his drive's been wiped and rebuilt so many times that he no longer has the software that came from the original vendor. Being a cash-poor college student he's hoping not to have to pay for Roxio (that'd been my first impulse as well).

thanks

[Kenny304]

ImgBurn works well for me and it's free.

http://www.imgburn.com/

ImgBurn is a lightweight CD / DVD / HD DVD / Blu-ray burning application.

[ziggy53]

ImgBurn works well for me and it's free.

http://www.imgburn.com/

ImgBurn is a lightweight CD / DVD / HD DVD / Blu-ray burning application.

Thanks Kenny and welcome to the Digital Grin. :clap

[ziggy53]

good summary; I'm familiar with most of it (I do this often on my Mac (using a combination of FinalCut, ffMpegx, DVD Studio Pro & Toast)), I was hoping need some pointers for my son who's using Windows. There's the problem; his drive's been wiped and rebuilt so many times that he no longer has the software that came from the original vendor. Being a cash-poor college student he's hoping not to have to pay for Roxio (that'd been my first impulse as well).

thanks

If your son is using an older OS, try not to load more than one DVD burner software at a time. Starting with XP it does not seem to be as much a problem.

It may take some serious time to get the software and hardware installed for serious video production so if your son can get to a video lab on campus that is the primary recommendation. If he is shooting DV have him do simple editing between two camcorders to cut out most of the junk first.

[StevenV]

ImgBurn works well for me and it's free.Very nice, thanks. Now I just need to find a good tool to transcode wmv files (from Windows Movie Maker (bletch! but it's what he's got.)).

[Kenny304]

Thanks Kenny and welcome to the Digital Grin. :clap

You're welcome.

Glad to be here, been lurking in the shadows for a week or so, thought it was time to come out and say Hi.

[Kenny304]

Very nice, thanks. Now I just need to find a good tool to transcode wmv files (from Windows Movie Maker (bletch! but it's what he's got.)).

You're welcome, hope it's as usefull for your son as it has been for me.

Umm... what are you wanting to do with the .wmv files?

[StevenV]

Umm... what are you wanting to do with the .wmv files?get 'em onto a DVD that can play in a consumer player. I found DVD Flick http://www.dvdflick.net/ which is a little rough around the edges perhaps (or perhaps I just need to actually read the documentation) did the trick.

[DavidTO]

I'm an offline editor. I'm working in FCP everyday, but it's DV offline, all the time. Occasionally I might have a 16:9 project, but mostly it's 4:3. So, obviously, all these codecs and conversions have me completely confused.

I did a small favor for a friend, cutting some talking head footage that was shot in widescreen HD. He wants a little bitty square video to play in flash on his web page. But whatever I output did not work for the web guys. I could NOT get a square output with the anamorphic settings right. He was either stretched or squished.

Anybody have an easy way for me to take the HD footage, just crop off the sides and have it end up being a nice, square flash file?

The site is here (http://bettermen.org/), you can see where the video is to go in the "coming soon" spot.

[StevenV]

ffmpegx will do that, I think. http://ffmpegX.com

23553

I haven't tried it though, so I can't tell if that "autosize" is a crop or stretch/squash.

[StevenV]

hmm, well... maybe not. unless you dig into the settings more and figure out so to wrangle it into doing what you want. here's a (4x3 w/letterboxed widescreen) vid on which I used "autosize = 1:1" and set the height & width to 160: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0lRqz9PzFg

squished and pretty ugly.

original and tests are at http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=PirateT7

[ziggy53]

...

I did a small favor for a friend, cutting some talking head footage that was shot in widescreen HD. He wants a little bitty square video to play in flash on his web page. But whatever I output did not work for the web guys. I could NOT get a square output with the anamorphic settings right. He was either stretched or squished.

Anybody have an easy way for me to take the HD footage, just crop off the sides and have it end up being a nice, square flash file?

...

David,

I found this:

http://www.geniusdv.com/news_and_tutorials/2008/01/outputting-16-by-9-as-4-by-3-in-final-cut-pro.php

I suspect that will letterbox the 16:9 sequence but I would think you could apply a crop during the import?

[draggin]

Simple question really, once you have produced your masterpiece, which format do you prefer to export it to, windows video, quicktime, mpeg??

Any particular reason??

Tim

[ziggy53]

I'm still SD DV and if it's an important project I send the whole thing into a DV file on the computer first. Then I "print" that back to the camcorder to fix and finalize the changes.

From there I usually burn a DVD using a set-top/standalone burner.

If it's really important I will often also transcode the DV file into MPEG-2, and copy that onto a data DVD.

If I want to copy it to SmugMug I usually transcode the DV into H.264 to save time in the upload and so I can verify quality on my machine.

If it's something for YouTube i'll convert to FLV, 320x240, 25fps.

That about covers it.

[vaio2006]

Hm.. way back when (like back in 1999) I use to make wmv files for streaming stuff online...

now-a-days, I export everything to QuickTime or DV files. I haven't quite made the transition to HDCAM / XDCAM HD yet, but once I do, probably going to stick with Quicktime or AVI files.....

[TAKE-N-IMAGES]

Nice timing on the forum.

I'm a bit of a video guru myself, specifically with codec/conversions and directshow filters.

I do a lot of device compatability, so if you're wondering if x-type codec plays on x-type device, go ahead and ask me. :)

I work with everything from cellphone video to 4K(if you have a year to render)

Hey DI-Joe,

Do you know the customization codes to make videos play automaticly(like on the Homepage) & how to hide the Smugmug Logo.
I appreciate your time.

Fish

[DI-Joe]

Hey DI-Joe,

Do you know the customization codes to make videos play automaticly(like on the Homepage) & how to hide the Smugmug Logo.
I appreciate your time.

Fish

I'm not sure just yet, the default ones you might expect dont' work with the shiz player so that's out. I hear tell that smugmug will be documenting the variables. I thought about grabbing the SWF and extracting the variables myself, but I'm far too lazy. I'd rather they just tell me.

[jfriend]

I'm new to video and man is this confusing. I bought a new Sony HDR-SR12. It's HD (1920x1080) and records in AVCHD to it's hard disk. I wrongly assumed when I bought it that Smugmug would support it's video format, but after several failed upload attempts, it has been confirmed that Smugmug doesn't support the video format that comes out of the camera. Bummer.


So, I've been struggling for over 24 hours now to find something that can convert it to something that Smugmug understands. The software that comes with the camera won't save to any other HD format. Per Tristan's advice in another thread, I first tried VirtualDub, but it couldn't open my videos at all.

Then, he suggested I try MPEG Streamclip. I downloaded that, but it needed QuickTime stuff that's beyond the free QuickTime from Apple which I didn't have. So, I followed it's suggestions and deinstalled QuickTime from Apple and installed QuickTime Alternative, but even after doing that, MPEG Streamclip still says it doesn't have all the QuickTime stuff it needs. So, I gave up on that option.

At this point, I had no other ideas for a free converter that would do the job. If anyone else has any good ideas, I'm all ears. At this point, I just want to do format conversion to a Smugmug-supported HD format and probably trimming. I'll save video editing for later.

So if I can't find a free program, I figured I'd have to buy something. I decided to try the free trial of Sony Vegas Move Studio Platinum. Since it's made by Sony, it ought to support my camera files. Sure enough, it does.

But, now I have to figure out what format to save it to for Smugmug. I've never seen such a daunting array of choices full of acronyms I have no idea what they mean. To save, I have a choice of 16 formats and each format has a choice of 5-20 video codes and audio codecs and each of those has 5-10 settings within them (compression levels, bit rates, etc...). I really have no idea what a good choice is for Smugmug upload that will preserve as much quality as possible from the original and not be any larger than it needs to be to preserve that quality.

My choice of save formats are:
AVC/AAC MP4
MPEG-1
MPEG-2
OGG
MOV
RM
SONY AVC/AAC MP4
AVI
WAV
WMA
WMV

Given that I'm starting in AVCHD, what should I convert to before uploading to Smugmug? And what video and audio codecs should I use? By my calculations there are several hundred permutations of choices here and I'm hoping for some guidance on what is best.

Also, my camera records in 5.1 sound, but I think that's not supported by Smugmug. Does that means I have to do something else to the sound?

Man, what a mess. I've never pissed away so much time in my life trying to figure this out. All I'm tryhing to do is get a 45 second HD video up on my site from my brand new Sony camera. I've gotten a low-res MPEG2 version up, but don't know what choices will get a full res 1920x1080 version up.

[DavidTO]

John,

Video codecs are truly horrendous. I work in video every day, but thankfully never have to worry about it, since I'm all offline, DV, and I have assistants to worry about things that aren't.

I have no help to offer, just that I hear ya, brother.

[jfriend]

I'm new to video and man is this confusing. I bought a new Sony HDR-SR12. It's HD (1920x1080) and records in AVCHD to it's hard disk. I wrongly assumed when I bought it that Smugmug would support it's video format, but after several failed upload attempts, it has been confirmed that Smugmug doesn't support the video format that comes out of the camera. Bummer.


So, I've been struggling for over 24 hours now to find something that can convert it to something that Smugmug understands. The software that comes with the camera won't save to any other HD format. Per Tristan's advice in another thread, I first tried VirtualDub, but it couldn't open my videos at all.

Then, he suggested I try MPEG Streamclip. I downloaded that, but it needed QuickTime stuff that's beyond the free QuickTime from Apple which I didn't have. So, I followed it's suggestions and deinstalled QuickTime from Apple and installed QuickTime Alternative, but even after doing that, MPEG Streamclip still says it doesn't have all the QuickTime stuff it needs. So, I gave up on that option.

At this point, I had no other ideas for a free converter that would do the job. If anyone else has any good ideas, I'm all ears. At this point, I just want to do format conversion to a Smugmug-supported HD format and probably trimming. I'll save video editing for later.

So if I can't find a free program, I figured I'd have to buy something. I decided to try the free trial of Sony Vegas Move Studio Platinum. Since it's made by Sony, it ought to support my camera files. Sure enough, it does.

But, now I have to figure out what format to save it to for Smugmug. I've never seen such a daunting array of choices full of acronyms I have no idea what they mean. To save, I have a choice of 16 formats and each format has a choice of 5-20 video codes and audio codecs and each of those has 5-10 settings within them (compression levels, bit rates, etc...). I really have no idea what a good choice is for Smugmug upload that will preserve as much quality as possible from the original and not be any larger than it needs to be to preserve that quality.

My choice of save formats are:
AVC/AAC MP4
MPEG-1
MPEG-2
OGG
MOV
RM
SONY AVC/AAC MP4
AVI
WAV
WMA
WMV

Given that I'm starting in AVCHD, what should I convert to before uploading to Smugmug? And what video and audio codecs should I use? By my calculations there are several hundred permutations of choices here and I'm hoping for some guidance on what is best.

Also, my camera records in 5.1 sound, but I think that's not supported by Smugmug. Does that means I have to do something else to the sound?

Man, what a mess. I've never pissed away so much time in my life trying to figure this out. All I'm tryhing to do is get a 45 second HD video up on my site from my brand new Sony camera. I've gotten a low-res MPEG2 version up, but don't know what choices will get a full res 1920x1080 version up.

I think I may give up on Sony Vegas Platinum. Apparently, it will NOT save to true 1080i (only 720). You need the pro version of the product ($549) just to do a basic edit and save what came from the camera at full 1080i/p. Man, this is ridiculous.

Despite what I've read on the net about their program stability, I may have to try the trial versions of ULEAD and Pinnacle.

[jfriend]

John,

Video codecs are truly horrendous. I work in video every day, but thankfully never have to worry about it, since I'm all offline, DV, and I have assistants to worry about things that aren't.

I have no help to offer, just that I hear ya, brother.

David, are there any good forums that talk about video editing software where I might find some experts in this stuff?

Somebody must know what good mid-level editing software is for all these new AVCHD video cameras that could both read the Sony files and save to one of the Smugmug support formats. I think that rather than wasting a whole another day, I need to find people who know about this stuff.

[DavidTO]

I don't follow those forums, but I do know about this one (http://www.2-popforums.com/forums/).

[phototristan]

I recommend either a .mov or .avi with the h.264 codec, AAC 128kbps audio (stereo or mono).

If you can't do the h.264 codec, just make sure your video uses one of our supported codecs and you should be fine. Here's the list:

http://wiki.smugmug.com/display/SmugMug/Video+Formats

I hope this helps.


I'm new to video and man is this confusing. I bought a new Sony HDR-SR12. It's HD (1920x1080) and records in AVCHD to it's hard disk. I wrongly assumed when I bought it that Smugmug would support it's video format, but after several failed upload attempts, it has been confirmed that Smugmug doesn't support the video format that comes out of the camera. Bummer.


So, I've been struggling for over 24 hours now to find something that can convert it to something that Smugmug understands. The software that comes with the camera won't save to any other HD format. Per Tristan's advice in another thread, I first tried VirtualDub, but it couldn't open my videos at all.

Then, he suggested I try MPEG Streamclip. I downloaded that, but it needed QuickTime stuff that's beyond the free QuickTime from Apple which I didn't have. So, I followed it's suggestions and deinstalled QuickTime from Apple and installed QuickTime Alternative, but even after doing that, MPEG Streamclip still says it doesn't have all the QuickTime stuff it needs. So, I gave up on that option.

At this point, I had no other ideas for a free converter that would do the job. If anyone else has any good ideas, I'm all ears. At this point, I just want to do format conversion to a Smugmug-supported HD format and probably trimming. I'll save video editing for later.

So if I can't find a free program, I figured I'd have to buy something. I decided to try the free trial of Sony Vegas Move Studio Platinum. Since it's made by Sony, it ought to support my camera files. Sure enough, it does.

But, now I have to figure out what format to save it to for Smugmug. I've never seen such a daunting array of choices full of acronyms I have no idea what they mean. To save, I have a choice of 16 formats and each format has a choice of 5-20 video codes and audio codecs and each of those has 5-10 settings within them (compression levels, bit rates, etc...). I really have no idea what a good choice is for Smugmug upload that will preserve as much quality as possible from the original and not be any larger than it needs to be to preserve that quality.

My choice of save formats are:
AVC/AAC MP4
MPEG-1
MPEG-2
OGG
MOV
RM
SONY AVC/AAC MP4
AVI
WAV
WMA
WMV

Given that I'm starting in AVCHD, what should I convert to before uploading to Smugmug? And what video and audio codecs should I use? By my calculations there are several hundred permutations of choices here and I'm hoping for some guidance on what is best.

Also, my camera records in 5.1 sound, but I think that's not supported by Smugmug. Does that means I have to do something else to the sound?

Man, what a mess. I've never pissed away so much time in my life trying to figure this out. All I'm tryhing to do is get a 45 second HD video up on my site from my brand new Sony camera. I've gotten a low-res MPEG2 version up, but don't know what choices will get a full res 1920x1080 version up.

[jfriend]

I recommend either a .mov or .avi with the h.264 codec, AAC 128kbps audio (stereo or mono).

If you can't do the h.264 codec, just make sure your video uses one of our supported codecs and you should be fine. Here's the list:

http://wiki.smugmug.com/display/SmugMug/Video+Formats

I hope this helps.

The only program I've found so far that can read my camera's files, doesn't write h.264 codec. Is there a second favorite codec?

[ziggy53]

David, are there any good forums that talk about video editing software where I might find some experts in this stuff?

Somebody must know what good mid-level editing software is for all these new AVCHD video cameras that could both read the Sony files and save to one of the Smugmug support formats. I think that rather than wasting a whole another day, I need to find people who know about this stuff.

What does Sony have to say?

[ziggy53]

I'm new to video and man is this confusing. I bought a new Sony HDR-SR12. It's HD (1920x1080) and records in AVCHD to it's hard disk. I wrongly assumed when I bought it that Smugmug would support it's video format, but after several failed upload attempts, it has been confirmed that Smugmug doesn't support the video format that comes out of the camera. Bummer.


So, I've been struggling for over 24 hours now to find something that can convert it to something that Smugmug understands. The software that comes with the camera won't save to any other HD format. Per Tristan's advice in another thread, I first tried VirtualDub, but it couldn't open my videos at all.

Then, he suggested I try MPEG Streamclip. I downloaded that, but it needed QuickTime stuff that's beyond the free QuickTime from Apple which I didn't have. So, I followed it's suggestions and deinstalled QuickTime from Apple and installed QuickTime Alternative, but even after doing that, MPEG Streamclip still says it doesn't have all the QuickTime stuff it needs. So, I gave up on that option.

At this point, I had no other ideas for a free converter that would do the job. If anyone else has any good ideas, I'm all ears. At this point, I just want to do format conversion to a Smugmug-supported HD format and probably trimming. I'll save video editing for later.

So if I can't find a free program, I figured I'd have to buy something. I decided to try the free trial of Sony Vegas Move Studio Platinum. Since it's made by Sony, it ought to support my camera files. Sure enough, it does.

But, now I have to figure out what format to save it to for Smugmug. I've never seen such a daunting array of choices full of acronyms I have no idea what they mean. To save, I have a choice of 16 formats and each format has a choice of 5-20 video codes and audio codecs and each of those has 5-10 settings within them (compression levels, bit rates, etc...). I really have no idea what a good choice is for Smugmug upload that will preserve as much quality as possible from the original and not be any larger than it needs to be to preserve that quality.

My choice of save formats are:
AVC/AAC MP4
MPEG-1
MPEG-2
OGG
MOV
RM
SONY AVC/AAC MP4
AVI
WAV
WMA
WMV

Given that I'm starting in AVCHD, what should I convert to before uploading to Smugmug? And what video and audio codecs should I use? By my calculations there are several hundred permutations of choices here and I'm hoping for some guidance on what is best.

Also, my camera records in 5.1 sound, but I think that's not supported by Smugmug. Does that means I have to do something else to the sound?

Man, what a mess. I've never pissed away so much time in my life trying to figure this out. All I'm tryhing to do is get a 45 second HD video up on my site from my brand new Sony camera. I've gotten a low-res MPEG2 version up, but don't know what choices will get a full res 1920x1080 version up.

John,

It would appear that if you load "FFMPEG" on your system, Vegas will recognize it and allow h.264 output. It is freeware. No idea if it will work with the trial version or not. No idea if it supports 1080.

Audio may still be a problem. Will your camcorder record in stereo instead of 5:1? (Audio Mode, page 69 in your manual.)

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/ffmpeg

[jfriend]

John,

It would appear that if you load "FFMPEG" on your system, Vegas will recognize it and allow h.264 output. It is freeware. No idea if it will work with the trial version or not. No idea if it supports 1080.

Audio may still be a problem. Will your camcorder record in stereo instead of 5:1? (Audio Mode, page 69 in your manual.)

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/ffmpeg

I can't find any way to use FFMPEG in Vegas. As best I can find, it's just a command line utility (with support for a zillion formats and codecs), but I haven't found a way to "install" codecs into your system with it. If you see any references to how to use it directly in Vegas, I'd love some pointers.

What I did find is a way to add a lossless, high quality video codec to your system (huffyuv), render using that in Vegas (to a huge file), then take that file and use FFMPEG on it to render to h.264. There's a tutorial describing how to do this here (http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/08/11/from-dvhdvavchd-to-ps3xbox360appletv/). It's not for the faint of heart and, unfortunately, seems to show how complicated this all can get. What a mess!

[ziggy53]

I can't find any way to use FFMPEG in Vegas. As best I can find, it's just a command line utility (with support for a zillion formats and codecs), but I haven't found a way to "install" codecs into your system with it. If you see any references to how to use it directly in Vegas, I'd love some pointers.

What I did find is a way to add a lossless, high quality video codec to your system (huffyuv), render using that in Vegas (to a huge file), then take that file and use FFMPEG on it to render to h.264. There's a tutorial describing how to do this here (http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/08/11/from-dvhdvavchd-to-ps3xbox360appletv/). It's not for the faint of heart and, unfortunately, seems to show how complicated this all can get. What a mess!

John,

I'm a couple hundred miles from my machine now or I would try some things, even if only on my older version of Vegas, that might give a hint how it works.

The best discussion I can find just now seems to indicate that the FFMPEG might be available to Vegas using the "FFDShow" filter (discussion here):

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/update-for-sony-vegas-7-0-e-t328693.html

FFDShow here:

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=173941

There's a good chance I am not thinking correctly (all those "FFs" start to look the same.) Hopefully, there is an answer here somewhere.

[jfriend]

I can't find any way to use FFMPEG in Vegas. As best I can find, it's just a command line utility (with support for a zillion formats and codecs), but I haven't found a way to "install" codecs into your system with it. If you see any references to how to use it directly in Vegas, I'd love some pointers.

What I did find is a way to add a lossless, high quality video codec to your system (huffyuv), render using that in Vegas (to a huge file), then take that file and use FFMPEG on it to render to h.264. There's a tutorial describing how to do this here (http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/08/11/from-dvhdvavchd-to-ps3xbox360appletv/). It's not for the faint of heart and, unfortunately, seems to show how complicated this all can get. What a mess!

Well, I did finally succeed in getting what I wanted up onto Smugmug. Here's what I had to do (I still think there has to be a better way):

Install the Huffuv 2.1.1 lossless codec from here (http://www.neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley.edu/benrg/huffyuv-2.1.1.zip).
Right click on the .INF file in that codec and pick install. This installs the codec into Windows (which then makes it available in Sony Vegas)
Open my video in Sony Vegas
Select Render As, select .AVI as the file type and pick a bunch of options as described here in step 3 here (http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/08/11/from-dvhdvavchd-to-ps3xbox360appletv/). Note that the steps 4-6 in that same article didn't work for me. FFMPEG just crashed on me everytime, so I ended up using Super (described below). For the purposes of this workflow, just read step 3 in that article.
Save this file out as an uncompressed AVI
Now download and install Super (http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html) which is a Windows GUI on top of a bunch of different converters (FFMPEG among them).
Open Super and pick MOV output container, H.264/AVC output video codec, AAC output audio codec, 1280x720, 16x9, stretch to fill, AAC as the audio codec, set the output directory to the same directory as the source file, pick the uncompressed AVI file we previously generated and tell it to Encode.
Finally I ended up with a 1280x720 H.264 video file that Smugmug can read. Curiously, my end file was only 1/4 the size of my previous attempts and it looked just as good so that's good for upload time too. Perhaps that's because of how good the H.264 compression is.So anyway, I wouldn't say I'm pleased with all the steps of the workflow and heaven knows this is certainly not something most people can figure out how to do, but I at least know how to get a video up online now.

The bugaboo seems to be that neither Smugmug nor any of the free converters can read the Sony AVCHD out of the camera. I wonder why that is?

[ziggy53]

...

The bugaboo seems to be that neither Smugmug nor any of the free converters can read the Sony AVCHD out of the camera. I wonder why that is?

If I understand the current situation, the Sony variant of AVCHD that is used in the HDR-SR12 is simply different enough that many of the current software cannot properly "decode" the source video. Likewise, you can not take a Sony AVCHD file and load it into a Panasonic camcorder with AVCHD and expect it to play.

It appears that each manufacturer is able to design their own "tweeks" into their own products, making the resulting files incompatible.

There is a wiki about AVCHD that might help to understand the format, but it does not get into the differences between the "dialects" of the same format:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD

[cfurlong]

I have the complete Adobe Suite and have been using Flash Video Encoder to make FLVs with On2 VP6 and getting great results. I just did one this morning that was a 600mb DV format 29.97fps @ 640x480, and the FLV ended up at 18mb and looks great. Unfortunatelly, SmugMug doesn't accept FLV. I compressed the same file in QTpro with H.264 and the file ended up being 213mb and didn't look as good (got to figure out interlacing issue in QTpro). This could be due to audio codec, as I don't knwo them as well as video.

I'm new to the forum and will dig around to find out what other people have been using.

[phototristan]

Hi, we do accept flv!:

http://wiki.smugmug.net/display/SmugMug/Video+Formats




I have the complete Adobe Suite and have been using Flash Video Encoder to make FLVs with On2 VP6 and getting great results. I just did one this morning that was a 600mb DV format 29.97fps @ 640x480, and the FLV ended up at 18mb and looks great. Unfortunatelly, SmugMug doesn't accept FLV. I compressed the same file in QTpro with H.264 and the file ended up being 213mb and didn't look as good (got to figure out interlacing issue in QTpro). This could be due to audio codec, as I don't knwo them as well as video.

I'm new to the forum and will dig around to find out what other people have been using.

[cfurlong]

Hi, we do accept flv!:

http://wiki.smugmug.net/display/SmugMug/Video+Formats

Ah...I see the problem now...the file is only 18mb, but it's over 2.5 minutes long. Strange requirement by the way. Doesn't seem like the length of a movie would matter, just the file size. Oh well, I'll keep using Ning for music videos ;-(

[phototristan]

We use length because it's a bit easier to understand for many.

When I shoot a video clip with my video camera, I really have no idea how large the file is going to be, but I always know how long it is. Also, a video can grow and shrink in file size depending upon many factors such as video compression, audio bit rate, etc, etc. Whereas the length of the video is a constant.

[JDSX]

Every time I try to convert a 1920x1080 mpg file to h.264 in Super the sound ends up out-of-sync with the video. This is becoming a real problem for me because some of my videos are too large to upload to Smugmug. When Smugmug does the automatic conversion post-upload it stays synched; I can't explain or fix it.

[cfurlong]

We use length because it's a bit easier to understand for many.

When I shoot a video clip with my video camera, I really have no idea how large the file is going to be, but I always know how long it is. Also, a video can grow and shrink in file size depending upon many factors such as video compression, audio bit rate, etc, etc. Whereas the length of the video is a constant.

Exactly...as codecs improve, file sizes are going to get smaller as video quality goes up. If the restriction is based on storage, better codecs should allow us to have longer videos with less storage. As technology in general improves, longer videos at higher qualities will be easier to stream, but 2.5 minutes will always be 2.5 minutes, so we won't benefit from new technology or techniques.

I've just never seen storage limits based on time. Wierd convention IMO.

[phototristan]

Many if not most other video sites certainly do have time requirements. Flickr limits you to 90 seconds, YouTube is 10 minutes as examples.

I've just never seen storage limits based on time. Wierd convention IMO.

[ziggy53]

Every time I try to convert a 1920x1080 mpg file to h.264 in Super the sound ends up out-of-sync with the video. This is becoming a real problem for me because some of my videos are too large to upload to Smugmug. When Smugmug does the automatic conversion post-upload it stays synched; I can't explain or fix it.

What are your settings for Super?

Make sure the video (green) Frames/sec is 29.97.

[DoctorIt]

When I convert from .avi to .m4v using Quicktime Pro (Export > to iPod, w/default settings), why do my files get bigger? Case in point - a 35 minute movie was 350mb as the .avi, after conversion to .m4v, it was over 450mb. That is a really big increase.

What gives? Also, QT won't let me alter the default settings when I select "to ipod" (all grayed out).

http://img.skitch.com/20081117-jj2k8mg9ydip9h4snw8m7cqp7w.jpg

[BenA2]

Well, I did finally succeed in getting what I wanted up onto Smugmug. Here's what I had to do (I still think there has to be a better way):

So anyway, I wouldn't say I'm pleased with all the steps of the workflow and heaven knows this is certainly not something most people can figure out how to do, but I at least know how to get a video up online now.
John, I'm in almost the exact same predicament as you. I have a Sony HDR-SR11 and want to upload movies from it to SmugMug.

The good news is, I've figured out how to do this using only Sony Vegas Movie Studio 9 Platinum. I simply import the m2t files from the camera into Vegas, then render them with "Make Movie" from the file menu. The "trick" was that I had to make a custom render template under the "Advanced Render" option in the "Make Movie - Render Settings" dialog. In brief, the video render options I selected were:

Type: Sony AVC (*.mp4, *.m2tx, *.avc)
Template: Custom
Video Format: AVC
Frame Size: (Custom frame size)
Width: 1280
Height: 720
Profile: Main
Entropy Coding: CABAC
Frame rate: 29.970 (NTSC)
Field Order: None (progressive scan)
Pixel Aspect: 1.0000
Bit rate: 4,000,000

The key here, really, is the AVC format, which encodes video in H.264. I haven't tried it, but I'm sure you can change the other parameters. I chose to render to 720p since that's SmugMug's max resolution.

I end up with an *.mp4 file I can upload to SmugMug without a hitch.

If you want to try it and need more info, let me know. I can give you a bit more of a step-by-step process with screen shots.

[jfriend]

John, I'm in almost the exact same predicament as you. I have a Sony HDR-SR11 and want to upload movies from it to SmugMug.

The good news is, I've figured out how to do this using only Sony Vegas Movie Studio 9 Platinum. I simply import the m2t files from the camera into Vegas, then render them with "Make Movie" from the file menu. The "trick" was that I had to make a custom render template under the "Advanced Render" option in the "Make Movie - Render Settings" dialog. In brief, the video render options I selected were:

Type: Sony AVC (*.mp4, *.m2tx, *.avc)
Template: Custom
Video Format: AVC
Frame Size: (Custom frame size)
Width: 1280
Height: 720
Profile: Main
Entropy Coding: CABAC
Frame rate: 29.970 (NTSC)
Field Order: None (progressive scan)
Pixel Aspect: 1.0000
Bit rate: 4,000,000

The key here, really, is the AVC format, which encodes video in H.264. I haven't tried it, but I'm sure you can change the other parameters. I chose to render to 720p since that's SmugMug's max resolution.

I end up with an *.mp4 file I can upload to SmugMug without a hitch.

If you want to try it and need more info, let me know. I can give you a bit more of a step-by-step process with screen shots.

Cool. Thanks for the update. At the time I last did the research, I think only the pro version could actually save edited video as HD. After investing in an HD video camera, that seemed kind of silly and the pro version seemed ridiculously expensive for me needs. Either I misunderstood that limitation at the time or they've moved this capability into the Platinum version. I never really solved my problem (lots of unedited video from a trip to Kenya waiting for me to do something with) so I may give it a go with Vegas Platinum. Thanks for the info. If I run into any snags, I'll let you know.

[Nikolai]

OK, Windows Junkie here.

I have some MOV files from Canon 5D2 and Canon 7D that I would like to make a movie from. The only movie editor I have is Windows Live Movie Maker (on my Windows 7x64 laptop) - which conveniently doesn't understand MOV format :-(.

Funnily, Windows Media Player plays them fine, both on XPx86 and W7x64.

So I need to convert my MOV files into something WMM would understand.

I tried a bunch of free converters: Format Factory, SUPER, Bink - some error out, others claim they convert 100%, but in fact they convert 1 second (or 1 frame) and then decide to stop.

At this point my only way to get them converted is to upload them to SM and then get back mp4. It works, but what a great waste of bandwidth and time.

Anybody had similar problem and found a better solution?

TIA!

And no, converting to Mac is not a viable option :-)

[DavidTO]

OK, Windows Junkie here.

I have some MOV files from Canon 5D2 and Canon 7D that I would like to make a movie from. The only movie editor I have is Windows Live Movie Maker (on my Windows 7x64 laptop) - which conveniently doesn't understand MOV format :-(.

Funnily, Windows Media Player plays them fine, both on XPx86 and W7x64.

So I need to convert my MOV files into something WMM would understand.

I tried a bunch of free converters: Format Factory, SUPER, Bink - some error out, others claim they convert 100%, but in fact they convert 1 second (or 1 frame) and then decide to stop.

At this point my only way to get them converted is to upload them to SM and then get back mp4. It works, but what a great waste of bandwidth and time.

Anybody had similar problem and found a better solution?

TIA!

And no, converting to Mac is not a viable option :-)


mpeg streamclip

[Nikolai]

mpeg streamclipThank you, I'll try that one! :thumb
EDIT: Finally, something that works! Thank you David!

[BenA2]

Thank you, I'll try that one! :thumb
MPEG Streamclip will work if you transcode to Motion JPEG. But, as I'm sure you know, that's a lossy conversion.

As far as I know, in Windows, there are only two methods to edit 5DII/7D files without a lossy intermediate format and neither is free. The first is to use Pinnacle as your editor. It's users claim it can edit the MOV files natively without an intermediate codec. The second is to use Cineform Neoscene ($129) to transcode to its 10-bit, lossless format. I know you can edit the Cineform files in Premier and Vegas. I'm not sure about Movie Maker, but I don't see why not. More info in this thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=146383).

If you're OK with a bit of degradation, then MPEG Streamclip is the best free alternative I know of.

[DavidTO]

MPEG Streamclip will work if you transcode to Motion JPEG. But, as I'm sure you know, that's a lossy conversion.

As far as I know, in Windows, there are only two methods to edit 5DII/7D files without a lossy intermediate format and neither is free. The first is to use Pinnacle as your editor. It's users claim it can edit the MOV files natively without an intermediate codec. The second is to use Cineform Neoscene ($129) to transcode to its 10-bit, lossless format. I know you can edit the Cineform files in Premier and Vegas. I'm not sure about Movie Maker, but I don't see why not. More info in this thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=146383).

If you're OK with a bit of degradation, then MPEG Streamclip is the best free alternative I know of.


Dunno about the Windows version, but the Mac version has plenty of good editing codecs.

I'd be interested to know if it's really all that different on the Windows side.

[Nikolai]

I got mpeg streamclip converted my MOV to AVI. Looks like the same quality to me. :thumb

[THX1965]

I got mpeg streamclip converted my MOV to AVI. Looks like the same quality to me. :thumb

AVI is not a codec and neither is Quicktime. Both are simply multimedia containers for various possible codecs. MOV for example can contain anything from DV to H.264 to uncompressed 1080p HD. The same goes for AVI, however - since I am a Mac user, I am not sure if AVI on the Windows sinde supports as many professional video codecs as Quicktime does.

So the question is, which codec did you use for your AVI files?

--- Markus ---

[BradfordBenn]

There might also be another solution. I spent many hours this week working on trying to convert a WebEx recording to a AVI or WMV that I could edit with my software (Camtasia). I found that Microsoft does have some other tools out there that helps with some of these transcoding. Rather than try to explain it, here is the link http://support.microsoft.com/kb/923946/ fixed my problem in about 30 minutes (rendering time for a 90 minute WebEx recording)

[AaronNelson]

David / or Any Guru....

When converting a DV tape camcorder video via firewire onto the computer does using a specific software program make a difference in quailty in the AVI file?

I've been using adobe premiere 6.0 for the past 7 years or so to do that process.... fyi I havent used the program to do anything but make a AVI file for backup purposes, but soon I will start editing all those old home movies!

So I wonder if when I actually get to editing these videos will I be working with the best file possible ( "DV tape to AVI file using an old software program) or SHOULD I RE-DOWNLOAD from the old DV Tapes using a new program on a new super computer to get the best possible quality ??....

btw, I still haven't decided what program to use yet.
I'm thinking maybe its time to try Mac, but I just don't understand the pricing for them, so maybe I will just get Vegas 9 for my newest photography editing PC instead ???...

btw, I've read that there are issues working with 5d2 files with Vegas... would I be better off getting Pinnacle 14, or is it time for Finalcut pro and a Mac?

[THX1965]

David / or Any Guru....

When converting a DV tape camcorder video via firewire onto the computer does using a specific software program make a difference in quailty in the AVI file?

.....

I'm thinking maybe its time to try Mac, but I just don't understand the pricing for them, so maybe I will just get Vegas 9 for my newest photography editing PC instead ???...

btw, I've read that there are issues working with 5d2 files with Vegas... would I be better off getting Pinnacle 14, or is it time for Finalcut pro and a Mac?


Well, I have to say, I am biased. I am a professional editor and I have been using Macs for the past 15 years. I do use Final Cut Pro on a daily basis for my editing work and I cannot imagine having to do the same things on a PC. (I used to have a Windows PC before I became an editor. In our company we use about 40 Macs and 3 PCs for the accounting department. Our IT people have to spend most of their time with the PCs. The Macs just work.)

First of all - what is not to understand about the pricing of Macs? Any Mac can edit HD video out of the box with no additional hardware needed, so it's just a matter of how extensively you're planning to edit video and what you expect of your editing system.

Without knowing what exactly you're plannig to do, I'd say iMacs make really terrific editing systems for the vast majority of people. They have a terrific screen and are quite powerful and cost the same (if not less) than an equally equipped PC. Plus: your'e getting the Mac operating system, which not only is immune to virus attacks, it's also incredibly easy to use.

If you want more specific information about editing software and Apple hardware, I'd be happy to help you along.

--- Markus ---

[ziggy53]

David / or Any Guru....

When converting a DV tape camcorder video via firewire onto the computer does using a specific software program make a difference in quailty in the AVI file?

I've been using adobe premiere 6.0 for the past 7 years or so to do that process.... fyi I havent used the program to do anything but make a AVI file for backup purposes, but soon I will start editing all those old home movies!

So I wonder if when I actually get to editing these videos will I be working with the best file possible ( "DV tape to AVI file using an old software program) or SHOULD I RE-DOWNLOAD from the old DV Tapes using a new program on a new super computer to get the best possible quality ??....

btw, I still haven't decided what program to use yet.
I'm thinking maybe its time to try Mac, but I just don't understand the pricing for them, so maybe I will just get Vegas 9 for my newest photography editing PC instead ???...

btw, I've read that there are issues working with 5d2 files with Vegas... would I be better off getting Pinnacle 14, or is it time for Finalcut pro and a Mac?

SD DV is already compressed so that when you import the video stream from tape into the computer the "capture" software, or capture function of editing software, simply inserts the DV frames into an appropriate "wrapper". Any modern DV wrapper contains discrete video frames that are digitally identical to the video frames on the original source tape.

Re-compression only occurs when when editing software inserts transitions and performs video filtering, etc. Simple cuts only break the chain of video frames, but they do not re-compress.

The video wrapper is important in PC editing in that some wrappers allow certain features such as extremely long play times in a single file. Some video editing software can also be sensitive to the particular wrapper and only support certain types, so it's important to use the correct type in capture that is supported by the editing software. For modern Windows/PCs that is generally MS DV Type-2 in an AVI "container" file format.

I have 5 video editing machines that do a fine job with DV video capture and editing, and they date all the way back to Windows 98 and Pentium III and Athlon architecture. DV editing does not have to require that modern of a machine for capture or basic editing. Yes, Windows works fine.

The video files from a Canon 5D MKII use an MP4 type of compression in an MOV container that is much different from DV and 1080 x 1920 maximum resolution has 6 times the resolution of DV video format. This means that an older Windows machine, or older Mac for that matter, will struggle or fail to be able to adequately handle the video needs of a 5D MKII video. My XP based Pentium IV 3 Ghz and 2 GB RAM machine could not do it.

I upgraded to a Windows 7, i5 - 750 (quad core) based machine with 4 GB RAM and it handles the files nicely.

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=163249

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883229130

I just checked and the same machine is still available and the price has dropped $10.

I have tested both Sony Vegas Pro 9 and Corel VideoStudio Pro X3 and they are both good to handle 5D MKII files natively. Since the Corel software includes some very handy additional software that I use, and since I don't currently need all of the extra video tracks available in the Sony software, I'll probably purchase the Corel software (currently $70).

http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1378070&postcount=3

http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1386254&postcount=5

[AaronNelson]

Well, I have to say, I am biased. I am a professional editor and I have been using Macs for the past 15 years. I do use Final Cut Pro on a daily basis for my editing work and I cannot imagine having to do the same things on a PC. (I used to have a Windows PC before I became an editor. In our company we use about 40 Macs and 3 PCs for the accounting department. Our IT people have to spend most of their time with the PCs. The Macs just work.)

First of all - what is not to understand about the pricing of Macs? Any Mac can edit HD video out of the box with no additional hardware needed, so it's just a matter of how extensively you're planning to edit video and what you expect of your editing system.

Without knowing what exactly you're plannig to do, I'd say iMacs make really terrific editing systems for the vast majority of people. They have a terrific screen and are quite powerful and cost the same (if not less) than an equally equipped PC. Plus: your'e getting the Mac operating system, which not only is immune to virus attacks, it's also incredibly easy to use.

If you want more specific information about editing software and Apple hardware, I'd be happy to help you along.

--- Markus ---

Thanks Markus, keep an eye out for my new thread I start today or tomorrow thats just for me and my ignorant questions (so not to get OT in this thread:D) I really will need to discuss this Mac thing further!

[AaronNelson]

The video wrapper is important in PC editing in that some wrappers allow certain features such as extremely long play times in a single file. Some video editing software can also be sensitive to the particular wrapper and only support certain types, so it's important to use the correct type in capture that is supported by the editing software. For modern Windows/PCs that is generally MS DV Type-2 in an AVI "container" file format.

Ziggy, you really have helped me through a few grey areas!
I have no idea what format my camcorder records to DV tape (I don't even think there is a choice) but I just playback the stream to computer via firewire.
If I understand your comments correctly then the AVI file will have no quality issues due to the software but will be limited to what the camcorder transfers over to the computer and how it was recorded in the first place...
I really don't mind the quality of the AVI file as they sit now, I just didn't want to start editing with a AVI file I could easily re-do from the original DV tapes with new software.

[ziggy53]

Ziggy, you really have helped me through a few grey areas!
I have no idea what format my camcorder records to DV tape (I don't even think there is a choice) but I just playback the stream to computer via firewire.
If I understand your comments correctly then the AVI file will have no quality issues due to the software but will be limited to what the camcorder transfers over to the computer and how it was recorded in the first place...
I really don't mind the quality of the AVI file as they sit now, I just didn't want to start editing with a AVI file I could easily re-do from the original DV tapes with new software.

DV videotape is not a file, you may think of it as a stream of video data, with each video frame a discrete image.

I'll assume that you use DV-mini video tapes (the most popular type of DV video acquisition.) The video camera portion of your camcorder captures 30 frames per second at a constant size and bit rate. Each of those 30 frames per second is a discrete video frame and not linked or dependent on the surrounding frames. All compression and quantization is preformed by the capture components of the camcorder and only the discrete frames are recorded onto the video tape. The tape itself is the container, but the video stream can be started and stopped at any point on the tape simply by re-positioning the tape (using forward and reverse positioning of the tape.)

When you "transfer" the DV video stream onto a computer you choose software which has a "capture" function, which in turn "encapsulates" the video stream into a "wrapper" and "container", but the video stream of discrete video frames are digitally identical to the original frames on the DV videotape. The wrapper and container you choose should be compatible with the software you wish to use for editing, but the video frames, as long as you stay in a DV dialect codec, will remain untouched and digitally identical to the original DV videotape video frames. (The audio section is another matter entirely, however.) I generally choose to use the Microsoft (MS) DV Type-2 codec (wrapper) and AVI file format (container) for Windows use.

The capture method of the Canon 5D MKII, and all other video dSLRs as far as I am aware, is much different. The video stream is highly compressed and both wrapper and container are applied in the camera. You can literally just copy the resulting video file from the camera's memory card directly onto the computer hard drive. As long as the computer software you wish to use understands the file, you are generally good to go. Further conversion may have to be performed against the video for the purpose of editing and applying effects, transitions, filters and such, but the computer software (or multiple software) should take care of that.

As an aside, the compression system used by all video dSLRs is not one that results in discrete video frames, like the old DV format was. Unfortunately with the MPEG type of compression used in the video dSLRs each frame is generally only partial information and dependent on the video information of surrounding frames. The reasoning is that if part of a a scene can be repeated, it does not need to be recorded for each frame. Thus repeating scene information is considered redundant and only recorded when it actually changes. As you might guess this increases the processing load of the editing software and computer processor considerably.

[AaronNelson]

excellent info Ziggy:thumb I am very grateful for your assistance!

[DavidTO]

I'll assume that you use DV-mini video tapes (the most popular type of DV video acquisition.) The video camera portion of your camcorder captures 30 frames per second at a constant size and bit rate.


I'm pretty sure DV is 29.97, at least that's what FCP calls it. A small, but important distinction.

[ziggy53]

I'm pretty sure DV is 29.97, at least that's what FCP calls it. A small, but important distinction.

Absolutely true.

The original US NTSC B&W standard was at 30 fps, but it was changed to 29.97 fps in 1953 to allow for a color subcarrier signal but maintain compatibility with existing B&W TV sets. (To this day I still don't understand the reasoning or technology for the change, but it does work.)

To be complete the DV system also includes a 720x576 resolution @ 25 fps PAL specification compatible with many European TV systems.

[BradfordBenn]

Frame rate is an important thing to make sure that is consistent or at least understood. While this might seem small, over the course of a few minutes it adds up to a frame or two. To be honest it has been so long since I did video that I don't remember the exact rate I think it is two frames every ten minutes. Don't tell my college professors....

[THX1965]

Frame rate is an important thing to make sure that is consistent or at least understood. While this might seem small, over the course of a few minutes it adds up to a frame or two. To be honest it has been so long since I did video that I don't remember the exact rate I think it is two frames every ten minutes. Don't tell my college professors....

Since all editing programs that I know simply transfer the DV footage from your DV camcorder through firewire to your computer, I don't think one can make a mistake with frame rates. As long as you stay in DV, whatever your camera recorded at is what you get.

It's when you start transcoding from one format into another, that's when you have to be aware of special US video-friendly framerates such as 29.97 or 23.976. Transcoding would apply to working with editing-unfriendly H.264 codecs from your 5D or 7D for example - at least on the Mac side.

[jedi6]

Question on conversions
I recently started shooting 720p video with a Droid X and noticed that regardless of what method I upload the video the quality and file size is always way less than what the original video is. The videos play fine even though they are a .3gp format, but how do I upload and keep the HD quality? The methods I have tried are using pixelpipe from the phone which I know uploaded full HD quality from my iPhone 4, and I have tried uploading through the browser after putting the video files on my mac but no difference in either way.
Thanks for your time.

Mike

[docwalker]

Mike,

Contact me or Tristan through the help desk. We need to take a look at the original videos before upload to see what might be going on. http://www.smugmug.com/help/emailreal

[vegaguy]

I have opened a few MOV video files from the Canon 7D in Windows Movie Player and the playback is sketchy and garbled. Tried to open in Windows Media Center and she won't even recognize it, not even an option when I looked into default options. Things is a pal of mine has the same programs on damn near the same system and set-up and his read my files just fine. I was told by Dell I need the proper codecs but I am unable to find the correct ones that would allow me to view these MOV videos in those programs. I have imported and opened in Premier Pro and it looks and plays just fine. Any ideas what should be done here? I am starting to go crazy. Pleeeeaase.

Thanks Much!
-John

[THX1965]

I have opened a few MOV video files from the Canon 7D in Windows Movie Player and the playback is sketchy and garbled. Tried to open in Windows Media Center and she won't even recognize it, not even an option when I looked into default options. Things is a pal of mine has the same programs on damn near the same system and set-up and his read my files just fine. I was told by Dell I need the proper codecs but I am unable to find the correct ones that would allow me to view these MOV videos in those programs. I have imported and opened in Premier Pro and it looks and plays just fine. Any ideas what should be done here? I am starting to go crazy. Pleeeeaase.

Thanks Much!
-John

Go to Apple's website and download the free Quicktime Player for Windows. MOV files are quicktime files. The 7D encodes them with the H.264 codec, a standard video codec used by YouTube and many other sites. H.264 needs a relatively fast and new processor. If you're still seeing studdery playback with Quicktime Player for Windwos, it may be time for a comptuer upgrade.

[vegaguy]

Go to Apple's website and download the free Quicktime Player for Windows. MOV files are quicktime files. The 7D encodes them with the H.264 codec, a standard video codec used by YouTube and many other sites. H.264 needs a relatively fast and new processor. If you're still seeing studdery playback with Quicktime Player for Windwos, it may be time for a comptuer upgrade.

maaan, thats what i'm tryin to avoid. but it worked. I just don't get how a new Win7 i7 doesnt have the brains to read MOV and requires an Apple program.

thanks btw

[jfriend]

maaan, thats what i'm tryin to avoid. but it worked. I just don't get how a new Win7 i7 doesnt have the brains to read MOV and requires an Apple program.Because mov is an Apple invention (vs. wmv for Microsoft) and there are way too many competing options in video. Ask Apple why they don't support wmv. Same issue. Until this standard thing gets worked out, you often have to have multiple players to be able to play all the different formats.

[DavidTO]

maaan, thats what i'm tryin to avoid. but it worked. I just don't get how a new Win7 i7 doesnt have the brains to read MOV and requires an Apple program.

thanks btw

Well, FWIW, h.264 is not a codec that should be used for editing. So if your system plays it fine but chokes only when you're editing, it has more to do with that. Even Final Cut Pro can't edit with it natively, and that's Apples to Apples.

Use MPEG Streamclip to transcode the footage into something suitable for editing. I'm not sure what that is in the Windows world. For me it'd be Apple ProRes 422.

[vegaguy]

Well, FWIW, h.264 is not a codec that should be used for editing. So if your system plays it fine but chokes only when you're editing, it has more to do with that. Even Final Cut Pro can't edit with it natively, and that's Apples to Apples.

Use MPEG Streamclip to transcode the footage into something suitable for editing. I'm not sure what that is in the Windows world. For me it'd be Apple ProRes 422.

Nah, seems to work fine in Adobe Premiere Pro but just wouldn't play in Windows... QuickTime worked however.

[THX1965]

maaan, thats what i'm tryin to avoid. but it worked. I just don't get how a new Win7 i7 doesnt have the brains to read MOV and requires an Apple program.
thanks btw

What's wrong with using an Apple program on a Windows machine? It's free and works great.

Because mov is an Apple invention (vs. wmv for Microsoft) and there are way too many competing options in video. Ask Apple why they don't support wmv. Same issue. Until this standard thing gets worked out, you often have to have multiple players to be able to play all the different formats.

Quicktime is not a proprietary video format - Microsoft's WMV is - that's why almost nobody in the professional video and film world uses it. Quicktime on the other hand is just a media wrapper that can play back a large amount of video compression codecs natively (H.264, Motion JPEG etc.) and can even handle WMV files on the Mac side (via a free plugin).

Flash video, by the way, is a media wrapper too that can handle various video codecs for playback. Most of the flash videos that you find on the web these days were in fact encoded with H.264 (Youtube for example). So your Windows machine needs an Adobe program to play back that Youtube file. Yikes.... ;-)

[jfriend]

What's wrong with using an Apple program on a Windows machine? It's free and works great.Because once you install it, it bugs you regularly to install an update and there's no way to get it to stop doing that and when you do accept the update, it tries to put lots of other Apple crap on your computer (Safari, MobileMe, iTunes, etc...), puts icons in places I don't want them on my computer, installs stuff in my startup folder, etc... It also tries to take over for other video types which work perfectly fine without it. The fact is that having lots of video players competing on your computer to be the preferred player is far less reliable than having fewer.

[THX1965]

Because once you install it, it bugs you regularly to install an update and there's no way to get it to stop doing that and when you do accept the update, it tries to put lots of other Apple crap on your computer (Safari, MobileMe, iTunes, etc...), puts icons in places I don't want them on my computer, installs stuff in my startup folder, etc... It also tries to take over for other video types which work perfectly fine without it. The fact is that having lots of video players competing on your computer to be the preferred player is far less reliable than having fewer.

A valid complaint. But I am sure there are preferences that can be fine tuned to prevent that kind of behavior.

WMV is not your alternative to Quicktime - AVI is, which is the Microsoft competitor to Apple's Quicktime. To my knowledge, Quicktime is more advanced and versatile than AVI, plus it's cross-platform. That may be one of the reasons why it's more widely used in the professional post production world.

[jfriend]

A valid complaint. But I am sure there are preferences that can be fine tuned to prevent that kind of behavior.

WMV is not your alternative to Quicktime - AVI is, which is the Microsoft competitor to Apple's Quicktime. To my knowledge, Quicktime is more advanced and versatile than AVI, plus it's cross-platform. That may be one of the reasons why it's more widely used in the professional post production world.Yes, you are likely right about WMV/AVI/MOV - I'm not an expert in this stuff - just a frustrated user that's pissed that so much of this complexity is foisted on end-users because the big boys won't agree how to do things in the way that's best for all end-users rather than in the way that serves their own selfish agenda. Microsoft is just as guilty as Apple in this regard.

[DI-Joe]

Yes, you are likely right about WMV/AVI/MOV - I'm not an expert in this stuff - just a frustrated user that's pissed that so much of this complexity is foisted on end-users because the big boys won't agree how to do things in the way that's best for all end-users rather than in the way that serves their own selfish agenda. Microsoft is just as guilty as Apple in this regard.

Ah yes... Sorry I'm late. :P

AVI is a contain only, not a codec. Containers are often confused with codecs especially by Windows users who consistently associate a file's extension with it's contents or purpose.

AVI files can have the same exact guts as a MOV file (e.g. you can have an AVI and MOV that both have H.264 video and AAC Audio). It's not really about the container...

Vegaguy, my biggest recommendation is to get shark007's FREE codec package for windows 7 (http://shark007.net/). Not only does this contain all the direcshow filters needed for just about every container out there, it also contains many advanced 3rd party splitters and codecs. Best of all, it sets them all up without stomping on your system configuration. You'll then be able to play any type of media file except for the really weird ones like RIFF right in Windows Media Player or Media Center (Yes, it'll tweak WMC to open MKV/MOV/AVI/TS, etc containers).

Windows 7 DOES come with an H.264 "compatible" filter but it doesn't support all profiles.

Now, I saw someone talking about not wanting to edit in H.264. Obviously, as with photography you want to do as much with the raw file as you can before you have to convert it. I happen to be blessed with a serious workstation and can work with 100's of gigs of raw H.264 off my 5D MKII and they both play fine in windows and scrub and cut fine in Premiere. That may be due to my storage, an OCZ 512GB PCI-E SSD card (4x 128GB NAND flash module in connected to an LSI RAID controller via SAS in RAID0. 1.2GB/s sustained transfer rate). Your storage is always going to be your biggest bottleneck in any recent computer. Even a single SSD or a reasonably fast mechanical drive will make these big files easier to work with.

So while I think it's always a good idea for windows users to have quicktime installed as it is the defacto standard these days, that codec package will make your day and it requires zero configuration (just click the "use Shark007's recommended settings"). Also if you're an Adobe user you should also have a number of codecs installed along side Adobe Media Encoder though because of my setup, I'm not sure which codecs other than private class commercial codecs get installed.

Again, I hope that helps. I'm sorry I'm late but I did get your PM!!!

Cheers!

[THX1965]

Now, I saw someone talking about not wanting to edit in H.264. Obviously, as with photography you want to do as much with the raw file as you can before you have to convert it. I happen to be blessed with a serious workstation and can work with 100's of gigs of raw H.264 off my 5D MKII and they both play fine in windows and scrub and cut fine in Premiere.

DI Joe -

Canon H.264 files are not "raw" files. We all wish they were. They are your originals, if that is what you mean, but they are heavily compressed and on top of that they are limited by an 8-bit color space (4:2:0). That's why H.264 is not an ideal editing format, even if your computer can handle it.

Other than saving time for not having to convert those files, your'e not really gaining anything by editing natively in H.264. On the contrary. Any color manipulation with - let's say - slightly underexposed material in H.264 is going to bring out the worst in your footage. If you have to render any effects, you're further degrading the material. It's like working with (heavily compressed) HDV files natively in your timeline. That's why, for example, Apple's Final Cut Pro by default renders any effects (dissolves etc.) in its lossless high quality ProRes format when dealing with native HDV sequences - to prevent a loss in quality of the rendered material. With H.264 you're running into the same kind of scenario.

By converting those H.264 camera files to a lossless format with a better color space (4:2:2 or 4:4:4) before editing - you're "freezing any compression artifacts" and prevent them from getting worse.

Your most convenient high quality format on the Mac is ProRes (4:2:2 or 4:4:4) since it ships with Final Cut Pro. Another highly regarded format is Cineform http://www.cineform.com/products.php Their codecs can be used on both Macs and Windows machines with Final Cut Pro and all Adobe products.

All of course depends on what you expect from your material. Do you just quickly want to cut a few shots together for the web without much color grading? In that case you may as well stay in H.264, if you have a machine that can handle it.

But for more serious work with effects and color grading down the line, transcoding to either ProRes or Cineform before editing is a must.

[DI-Joe]

DI Joe -

Canon H.264 files are not "raw" files. We all wish they were. They are your originals, if that is what you mean, but they are heavily compressed and on top of that they are limited by an 8-bit color space (4:2:0). That's why H.264 is not an ideal editing format, even if your computer can handle it.

Other than saving time for not having to convert those files, your'e not really gaining anything by editing natively in H.264. On the contrary. Any color manipulation with - let's say - slightly underexposed material in H.264 is going to bring out the worst in your footage. If you have to render any effects, you're further degrading the material. It's like working with (heavily compressed) HDV files natively in your timeline. That's why, for example, Apple's Final Cut Pro by default renders any effects (dissolves etc.) in its lossless high quality ProRes format when dealing with native HDV sequences - to prevent a loss in quality of the rendered material. With H.264 you're running into the same kind of scenario.

By converting those H.264 camera files to a lossless format with a better color space (4:2:2 or 4:4:4) before editing - you're "freezing any compression artifacts" and prevent them from getting worse.

Your most convenient high quality format on the Mac is ProRes (4:2:2 or 4:4:4) since it ships with Final Cut Pro. Another highly regarded format is Cineform http://www.cineform.com/products.php Their codecs can be used on both Macs and Windows machines with Final Cut Pro and all Adobe products.

All of course depends on what you expect from your material. Do you just quickly want to cut a few shots together for the web without much color grading? In that case you may as well stay in H.264, if you have a machine that can handle it.

But for more serious work with effects and color grading down the line, transcoding to either ProRes or Cineform before editing is a must.

You make a very compelling point there about color space that I've up until this point overlooked... I'm definitely going to have to experiment with that. Thank you so much for pointing that out.

[DI-Joe]

Lemme expound on my previous messages...

Yes, I meant original, I know they're not raw..

More importantly, I just had a huge AHA! moment with regards to color space and I'm currently transcoding an entire movie's worth of clips to DNxHD. Fortunately, I can just replace the containers and they'll open right up in Premiere. I can't believe I didn't think of that. I know about color space... I know about H.264 being harsh to any changes in color. I just didn't put 2 and 2 together until you said something. So thank you!

[vegaguy]

You guys know of any in depth reading on the web regarding some of these facts? These file types are new to me as is Premiere. Sounds like I got my hands full : )

thanks for the feedback to all!

[ramirot]

Great Info Thanks !
What do you suggest in my case. I work with Sony Ex1, the files out of the camera are Mp4, mpeg 2 codec, those are the files that I drop on the timeline in Vegas 10.0. Should I convert those files to something else (like cineform) before I start editing? and why?
Thanks !!

[THX1965]

Great Info Thanks !
What do you suggest in my case. I work with Sony Ex1, the files out of the camera are Mp4, mpeg 2 codec, those are the files that I drop on the timeline in Vegas 10.0. Should I convert those files to something else (like cineform) before I start editing? and why?
Thanks !!

Work with it natively in Vegas 10.0. It's all going to stay in the Sony family, if you have a computer that's powerful enough to handle it. The XDCAM format has a better color space than what the Canon cameras record in.

But even for the H.264 footage that the Canon cameras record, I have somewhat changed my mind, now that all the latest NLE's can handle these formats natively. If you have a powerful computer, don't bother converting the H.264 footage. FCP X, for example, will automatically use Apple's high-end PreRes codec for rendering, so you're not further going down in quality. I am assuming other NLE's do a similar thing. FCP X even has an added bonus: you can start editing with your H.264 footage (even while importing it) and at any point later transcode your footage to ProRes in the background, if you choose to do so. FCP X will then automatically relink your newly transcoded material with all your clips.

But on the other hand, if you're really concerned about squeezing the best possible quality out of your DSLR footag, then I'd still say - convert to a higher quality editing codec.

But for XDCAM and Vegas, I'd stay - save yourself the trouble and work with it natively.

--- Markus ---

[ramirot]

Thanks Marcus !!