Studio lighting (kit)?

[Nikolai]

I'm thinking of getting a good set of studio lights. Probably not the whole thing at once (too mucho dinero needed), but the one that eventually will allow me to get the whole thing... So kinda start small but useful, and build up.
I really - REALLY - like the Profoto system, where the central power unit controls everything, can be hooked to PC and even has a built-in pocketwizard receiver, but man this piece alone is like $8,000...
I keep seeing all these magazine ads for different systems, but without hands-on experience it's really hard to say whether I'd like them or not.
What makes it harder that it seems that second hand market for this type of things is virtually inexistent (or maybe I simply didn't find it yet), so getting a cheaper version first and upgrading it later does not sound like a good option.
I wonder if there is something like profoto system, but maybe with less bells and whistles. I'd like the idea of one power unit controlling/triggering all the lights (4 at least), so monolights kinda not an option.
Urgh, I sound like a darn n00b...

[AaronNelson]

nikolai

i dont think you need to spend that kind of money!

also, imo, a hairlight will help greatly

Aaron

[James S]

So why not get some Alien Bees? The starter set which is what I have includes:

2 - AB400 Lights
2 - 10ft light stands
1 - 48" shoot through umbrealla
1 - 48" silver/white umbrella
1 - Wireless transmitter
2 - Wireless receivers

total price = $706.89

Found here: http://www.alienbees.com/digi.html

Then later as you go you can add a background light:
http://www.alienbees.com/background.html

and more lights as needed.

[JimW]

Nik, I have two Profoto Pro Acute (Alfa) packs at 2400 ws each. Very well built stuff. In the last 10 years, I've only had to take in one pack for minor repair, cost $79. I agree it's a good idea to build your system slowly with quality stuff. In the long run, you'll have less hassle. Do you have a pack repair shop in your town? If not, consider the hassle of sending a pack away for service. My suggestion is get the best packs you can afford. Then build from there.

Also, you may have plans to run four heads off one pack, and you certainly can do that. But, in practice I think you'll want no more than two heads per pack. At least that's been my experience. Makes things easier and faster.

One more thing. I wish I had the capability to turn the power WAY down, but with my old packs, I can't. So I must wrap them in nd gels, which gets ridiculous, and then of course you can't see the modeling lamps when they're wrapped in gels. So I might suggest you consider that for your purchase.

Good luck,
Jim

[ziggy53]

I'm thinking of getting a good set of studio lights. Probably not the whole thing at once (too mucho dinero needed), but the one that eventually will allow me to get the whole thing... So kinda start small but useful, and build up.
I really - REALLY - like the Profoto system, where the central power unit controls everything, can be hooked to PC and even has a built-in pocketwizard receiver, but man this piece alone is like $8,000...
I keep seeing all these magazine ads for different systems, but without hands-on experience it's really hard to say whether I'd like them or not.
What makes it harder that it seems that second hand market for this type of things is virtually inexistent (or maybe I simply didn't find it yet), so getting a cheaper version first and upgrading it later does not sound like a good option.
I wonder if there is something like profoto system, but maybe with less bells and whistles. I'd like the idea of one power unit controlling/triggering all the lights (4 at least), so monolights kinda not an option.
Urgh, I sound like a darn n00b...

Monolights have a "major" advantage that makes them so popular, a dedicated power supply with storage and control in "each" head. This means if the individual head starts acting up, you can still shoot with the other monolights.

You can get monolights with a single integrated remote control unit that coordinates all of the monolights' settings.

Monolights are also much more positionable merely adding inexpensive power extension cords as needed. It's also easier to "split" the power into multiple circuits if needed.

Years ago, my employer decided to do a 48 foot display as a two page spread in one of the industry magazines. They hired a photographer from 1 1/2 hours away because he had an 8" x 10" view camera as well as the requisite electronic flash with a unitized power pack and heads.

Unfortunately, the power pack failed and we had to wait about 1/2 day for a replacement. While we finished the shoot (late that night), that photographer was never hired again.

My boss and I used the experience to justify our own lighting purchase, 4 Bowens monolights. :wink

If you still want a unified power pack type of lighting, Elinchrom is pretty well respected and not quite as expensive as some other manufacturers.

[Nikolai]

So why not get some Alien Bees?
Don't like monolights, sorry... :dunno

[Nikolai]

nikolai

i dont think you need to spend that kind of money!

also, imo, a hairlight will help greatly

Aaron

Thank you, PM replied!

[Nikolai]

Monolights have a "major" advantage that makes them so popular, a dedicated power supply with storage and control in "each" head. This means if the individual head starts acting up, you can still shoot with the other monolights.

You can get monolights with a single integrated remote control unit that coordinates all of the monolights' settings.

Monolights are also much more positionable merely adding inexpensive power extension cords as needed. It's also easier to "split" the power into multiple circuits if needed.

Years ago, my employer decided to do a 48 foot display as a two page spread in one of the industry magazines. They hired a photographer from 1 1/2 hours away because he had an 8" x 10" view camera as well as the requisite electronic flash with a unitized power pack and heads.

Unfortunately, the power pack failed and we had to wait about 1/2 day for a replacement. While we finished the shoot (late that night), that photographer was never hired again.

My boss and I used the experience to justify our own lighting purchase, 4 Bowens monolights. :wink

If you still want a unified power pack type of lighting, Elinchrom is pretty well respected and not quite as expensive as some other manufacturers.

ZIggy, thanks a lot! I didn't know monolights can be remotely controlled.
You mean I can remotely control EVERITHING, like both the stobe power and modeling light power, and I don't need to have 4 PW recievers to hang off each of them, but just one?

[James S]

My Alien Bees have one receiver $39 on each one. Both are controlled by the transmitter mounted to my hot shoe.

[Nikolai]

My Alien Bees have one receiver $39 on each one. Both are controlled by the transmitter mounted to my hot shoe.
Rex,
I guess I was also looking for a (single) remote controlling capabilities. Can your 'Bees be controlled remotely, at least main power-wise?

[James S]

You can have one receiver if you never work around other photographers with the same setup. But Alien Bees offers the receviers for $40 that plug inline to the power cord. One Transmitter that mounts on the hot shoe is also $40. So basically you can use one transmitter and one receiver and just put the other lights in slave mode and it will work fine. Or you use one transmitter and a receiver for each light.

http://www.alienbees.com/rft1.html

[ChatKat]

Nik -

I took a week long studio light class last year. Very intense and we used every kind of light set up and every kind of modifier in the workshop. (JDRyan was in my class too at Santa Fe)

When I got back I looked at all kinds of set ups and specifically went to the WPPI show so that I could actually get a hands on comparison of brands and types. I talked to a lot of pros about their choice.

I bought the Profoto Mono lights. B&H had a package that came with three heads, lightstands, umbrellas, softboxes and case - oh and 4 pocketwizards. I did not need all the PW's that the kit came with - the heads have them built in.

What I learned was that the recycle time is reliable; the color stays the same from flash to flash and the quality is there. I might have invested a lot to start with but I know that these lights will be part of my kit for a long long time. I did end up with two of Shay's Sunpak 622's for easy portable lights when I go on location - they are fine for that. I have a shoot in my new studio - the first one - next week and I will have the camera room set up and ready to go with the lights. You are welcome to venture down my way and check them out.

[ziggy53]

ZIggy, thanks a lot! I didn't know monolights can be remotely controlled.
You mean I can remotely control EVERITHING, like both the stobe power and modeling light power, and I don't need to have 4 PW recievers to hang off each of them, but just one?

Starting with the Eli':
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283876-REG/Elinchrom_19340_Remote_Control_for_RX.html

Then the Bowens:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/254359-REG/Bowens_BW_7520_RC_1_Infrared_Remote_Control.html

Even a Bowens kit:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469996-REG/Bowens_BW_4277_Esprit_DX_Two_Monolight.html

... and finally Photogenic (although I am not a fan of Photogenic personally):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/304478-REG/Photogenic_919380_Studio_Control_for_DR_.html

I see your point about slave-ing multiple heads and I always used the built-in optical slaves in the true studio, and I now use inexpensive radio slaves as well as optical slave for my own setup. It works well enough that I don't plan anything else for a while.

[Shane422]

I don't know much about Elinchrom lights, but I have their trigger system. If hooked into Elinchrom RX lights, you can control the power (not TTL) as well as trigger the lights from the camera transmitter unit. You can also control the system through your PC, and they said that this year the system will be updated so you can fire the camera remotely as well.
http://www.bogenimaging.us/Jahia/product_main_page/site/bius/lang/en_US/cache/bypass?actualPathCategoryKey=1CAT:AAA3:2CAT:BBB1:3CAT:C124:4CAT:D275&curMarketId=NONE&curBrandId=BEL&kindOfProductCollectionRequest=productList&isCleanList=true

[Nikolai]

You can have one receiver if you never work around other photographers with the same setup. But Alien Bees offers the receviers for $40 that plug inline to the power cord. One Transmitter that mounts on the hot shoe is also $40. So basically you can use one transmitter and one receiver and just put the other lights in slave mode and it will work fine. Or you use one transmitter and a receiver for each light.

http://www.alienbees.com/rft1.html

Rex, thank you for the info! I have read your link about ABs and now see that they can be in fact controlled remotely (even if wired).

[Nikolai]

Nik -

I took a week long studio light class last year. Very intense and we used every kind of light set up and every kind of modifier in the workshop. (JDRyan was in my class too at Santa Fe)

When I got back I looked at all kinds of set ups and specifically went to the WPPI show so that I could actually get a hands on comparison of brands and types. I talked to a lot of pros about their choice.

I bought the Profoto Mono lights. B&H had a package that came with three heads, lightstands, umbrellas, softboxes and case - oh and 4 pocketwizards. I did not need all the PW's that the kit came with - the heads have them built in.

What I learned was that the recycle time is reliable; the color stays the same from flash to flash and the quality is there. I might have invested a lot to start with but I know that these lights will be part of my kit for a long long time. I did end up with two of Shay's Sunpak 622's for easy portable lights when I go on location - they are fine for that. I have a shoot in my new studio - the first one - next week and I will have the camera room set up and ready to go with the lights. You are welcome to venture down my way and check them out.

Thanks, Kathy, I think I'll take you up on this! Email sent!
And congrats on the scheduling the shoot! :thumb

[Nikolai]

Starting with the Eli':
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283876-REG/Elinchrom_19340_Remote_Control_for_RX.html

Then the Bowens:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/254359-REG/Bowens_BW_7520_RC_1_Infrared_Remote_Control.html

Even a Bowens kit:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469996-REG/Bowens_BW_4277_Esprit_DX_Two_Monolight.html

... and finally Photogenic (although I am not a fan of Photogenic personally):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/304478-REG/Photogenic_919380_Studio_Control_for_DR_.html

I see your point about slave-ing multiple heads and I always used the built-in optical slaves in the true studio, and I now use inexpensive radio slaves as well as optical slave for my own setup. It works well enough that I don't plan anything else for a while.

Ziggy, I see now, thank you!
What kind of cheap radio slaves do you use?

[Nikolai]

I don't know much about Elinchrom lights, but I have their trigger system. If hooked into Elinchrom RX lights, you can control the power (not TTL) as well as trigger the lights from the camera transmitter unit. You can also control the system through your PC, and they said that this year the system will be updated so you can fire the camera remotely as well.
http://www.bogenimaging.us/Jahia/product_main_page/site/bius/lang/en_US/cache/bypass?actualPathCategoryKey=1CAT:AAA3:2CAT:BBB1:3CAT:C124:4CAT:D275&curMarketId=NONE&curBrandId=BEL&kindOfProductCollectionRequest=productList&isCleanList=true
Thanks! I'll check it out!

[Nikolai]

Rather than take a position in the powerpack-vs-monolight debate, I'm going to point out that you don't have to limit yourself to one or the other.
...
Good luck and have fun...
Thank you very much for your insight! You've pointed out many important things I was not thinking about seriously enough!
Guess more homework for me... :wink

[ziggy53]

Ziggy, I see now, thank you!
What kind of cheap radio slaves do you use?

Ebay purchase
magic_trigger is the vendor
16 channel RF

This is an image of the kit (not mine):
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b398/auction-ebay/RD616-box.jpg

[Nikolai]

Soooo, let's see....

Monolights Pros:

combine power pack and strobe/lamp in one unit, hence less cords
each unit is totally independent, which improves reliability of the whole systemMonolights Cons:

Heavy, can be tripped off easier, esp. if set high on a stand
Unless wire/wireless remote is attached, adjusting may require more time/effort or be cumbersome
Since each unit requires its own AC supply, the whole setup requires more power cords or can overload a single socket if a splitter is used
May require several individual triggersPack/Head Pros:

Only the light itself goes onto the stand, the pack can be used as a weight on a bottom, so it's less prone to tripping
Controls are on the pack, hence they are easier to reach even if no remote control is used
One pack can control several lights, hence less power cords and less triggers are neededPack/Head Cons:

Extra cords are needed to connect lights to packs, cluttering the shooting space
If more than one light is connected to each pack, single pack failure causes more damage to the system---
Did I miss anything?

[Nikolai]

Ebay purchase
magic_trigger is the vendor
16 channel RF

This is an image (not mine):
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b398/auction-ebay/RD616-box.jpg
Thank you!

[Nikolai]

I found a local guy with a good rep who is a Britek dealer. How does this brand rate on average? :scratch

[Scott_Quier]

Nik - FWIW, Alien Bees have integrated optical slave triggers and they are quite sensitive/reliable. In any studio setting, you only need one wireless trigger to get them all to fire.

Before I got my PW transceivers, I was even using my 580EX to trigger the ABs. Here's how, you set the 580EX to manual mode, 1/128 power and pointed either up or away from the subject. At this power setting, the 580 contributed in no significant way to the exposure of the subject and there was no significant recycle time of the 580 to worry about either. The optical slave triggers in the ABs see the flash and fire. Simple stuff. Worked EVERY time.

But, this still leaves you with the problem (?) of getting the power setting set correctly or making it easy to do. The ABs have a controller you can get. Though, as you know, it's a wired solution.

[Nikolai]

Nik - FWIW, Alien Bees have integrated optical slave triggers and they are quite sensitive/reliable. In any studio setting, you only need one wireless trigger to get them all to fire.

Before I got my PW transceivers, I was even using my 580EX to trigger the ABs. Here's how, you set the 580EX to manual mode, 1/128 power and pointed either up or away from the subject. At this power setting, the 580 contributed in no significant way to the exposure of the subject and there was no significant recycle time of the 580 to worry about either. The optical slave triggers in the ABs see the flash and fire. Simple stuff. Worked EVERY time.
Thanks Scott, got it!

At this point I think I learned enough to adjust my criteria:

They all have optical slave stuff, so in a studio environment this really doesn't matter, since I have a couple of PWs (and 580Ex:-). However some optical slaves may not work reliably outdoors... In wich case el-cheapo radio triggers can also work (instead of more powerfll, but way more expensive PWs)
It is important to have modelling light to auto adjust along with the strobe, otherwise it doesn't help much
It is important to be able to set the power very low so the main light can be set really close. Otherwise you'd have to use gels/shutters and modelling light becomes useless
I still like the idea of being able to remotely control the power from a single location. Unfortunately it may mean more cords (from RC to units) or more $$ for wirelss ones.I hope to see Kathy's setup soon, and also maybe go and visit the local Britek guy in Ventura (30 min drive) to get some on-hand experience.

[Scott_Quier]

Thanks Scott, got it!

At this point I think I learned enough to adjust my criteria:

They all have optical slave stuff, so in a studio environment this really doesn't matter, since I have a couple of PWs (and 580Ex:-). However some optical slaves may not work reliably outdoors... In wich case el-cheapo radio triggers can also work (instead of more powerfll, but way more expensive PWs)
It is important to have modelling light to auto adjust along with the strobe, otherwise it doesn't help much
It is important to be able to set the power very low so the main light can be set really close. Otherwise you'd have to use gels/shutters and modelling light becomes useless
I still like the idea of being able to remotely control the power from a single location. Unfortunately it may mean more cords (from RC to units) or more $$ for wirelss ones.I hope to see Kathy's setup soon, and also maybe go and visit the local Britek guy in Ventura (30 min drive) to get some on-hand experience.
I think you may be right about the optical slave outdoors.

AB modeling light does vary, roughly, with the power setting of the strobe. I've read that you don't a linear correlation between the modeling light and the strobe until you spend major bucks. Just what I've heard.

The ABs can be set quite low. I have AB800 units. If you like, I can do a quick test to give you some idea of the lowest power setting. Just let me know and I'll get that information to you in the next day or so.

[Nikolai]

The ABs can be set quite low. I have AB800 units. If you like, I can do a quick test to give you some idea of the lowest power setting. Just let me know and I'll get that information to you in the next day or so.

That would be awesome! :thumb
Can please :bow you try the following:
Midday, inside, non-south room, window shutters/drapes closed;
one light with softbox,
lightmeter 2 ft away from the center facing the light,
ISO 100, 1/250s.
What f number would you get at min power?

[Scott_Quier]

That would be awesome! :thumb
Can please :bow you try the following:
Midday, inside, non-south room, window shutters/drapes closed;
one light with softbox,
lightmeter 2 ft away from the center facing the light,
ISO 100, 1/250s.
What f number would you get at min power?
Will do. You do understand that the shutter speed really has nothing to do with it as long as the amount of ambient light is 3+ stops less than that produced by the strobe, right?

I'll get an answer up to you by COB Sunday, but I plan to get it done tomorrow (but we all know what happens to the best of plans:dunno )

[Nikolai]

Will do. You do understand that the shutter speed really has nothing to do with it as long as the amount of ambient light is 3+ stops less than that produced by the strobe, right?
Well, yeah, unless you have very long shatter speed (shutter drag). Hence 1/250 to minimize any possible ambinet light effect...

I'll get an answer up to you by COB Sunday, but I plan to get it done tomorrow (but we all know what happens to the best of plans:dunno )
Thanks, man, much obliged!:thumb

[ChatKat]

Nik -

The size of the softbox and the proximity to the subject will affect the reading. Also if the softbox has any modifiers/Grids/baffles. I find that you cna pretty close shoot at 4.0 at 125, 160 or 250 and adjust the lights by checking the histogram.

Well, yeah, unless you have very long shatter speed (shutter drag). Hence 1/250 to minimize any possible ambinet light effect...


Thanks, man, much obliged!:thumb

[Nikolai]

Nik -

The size of the softbox and the proximity to the subject will affect the reading. Also if the softbox has any modifiers/Grids/baffles. I find that you cna pretty close shoot at 4.0 at 125, 160 or 250 and adjust the lights by checking the histogram.
Kathy, I inderstand that, of course, but thank you for clarifying! :thumb
I meant small portrait size softbox (30"..40"), like the one Shay used during the seminar (Scott knows, too:-). I figured with that 2 ft away I can safely count on bigger boxes/greater distances.

[Scott_Quier]

Kathy, I inderstand that, of course, but thank you for clarifying! :thumb
I meant small portrait size softbox (30"..40"), like the one Shay used during the seminar (Scott knows, too:-). I figured with that 2 ft away I can safely count on bigger boxes/greater distances.
I was planning on including the size of the softbox in my "report" as I also understand that this plays a role in the exposure.....

[Scott_Quier]

Strobe: Alien Bees AB800
Power Setting: 1/32
Softbox: 30" x 40", depth: 20"
Light meter: Sekonic L-358
Distance from softbox to meter: 24"
Distance from strobe bulb to meter: 44"

Exposure: ISO 100, SS: 1/250, f/4.0 resulted in flash contribution of 100% (no ambient contribution).

[jdryan3]

Nik -

I took a week long studio light class last year. Very intense and we used every kind of light set up and every kind of modifier in the workshop. (JDRyan was in my class too at Santa Fe)

When I saw this thread I was thinking I would have to get Kathy to chime in. :lol3

Nik - After reading this, I see that you definitely want to use these 'onsite' but I'm not sure if you are looking for only AC powered or battery powered.:dunno

I ask because the ABs can do either. Some monos also can, like the Calumet/Bowens Kathy and I used in Santa Fe. I was all gung ho after the class last year and looked into several options. I even got a quote for the Calumet monos with AC/Battery but at the time I would have had to buy the PWs separately.

This may be nitpicking, but when I used the Elinchrome Battery pack system at Los Luceros, I liked the quality of light a lot and the modfiers, but the connectors from the lights to the pack just drove me crazy. Couldn't tell if they were set all the way and locked, or unseated. AARGGH! And I really wanted to like them. I'll have to try another set to see if I can get over it.

One I really liked was the Norman's Allure kit (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/350676-REG/Norman_812766_Outdoor_Fill_1_Light.html) and the Norman 400s. But this is a minimal setup. The ProFotos with battery pack were just too expensive for me to start off with, since I wanted to 'grow' with a system like you do.

I'm sure you know this, but most systems running off of batteries disable the modeling light if they have one.

So what did I get? I put the purchase on hold until I could better define my actual needs. I got the 580EX II and the Sekonic L-358 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/221078-REG/Sekonic_401358_L_358_Flash_Master_Meter.html) (with the PW module since it was on sale as a bundle) instead. But all the AB fanboys & girls aside, they do seem to offer the best 'value' and flexibility at a modest entry fee.

Get em, see what works and what doesn't, and then replace them if you want. The DO seem to be limited in some of the softbox modfiers the Profotos and others have (like grids). The reason you don't see a huge used market is that a lot folks may just keep 'em even if they move up.

(And yeah, that last paragraph was as much for my own justification to move forward as it is to help you out :rolleyes )

[Sam]

Strobe: Alien Bees AB800
Power Setting: 1/32
Softbox: 30" x 40", depth: 20"
Light meter: Sekonic L-358
Distance from softbox to meter: 24"
Distance from strobe bulb to meter: 44"

Exposure: ISO 100, SS: 1/250, f/4.0 resulted in flash contribution of 100% (no ambient contribution).

Scott,

How do you shoot at 1/250 with yoiur 5D? I have a set of Alien Bees, and if I tyry using a shutter speed faser than 1/160 I have some sync issues.

Sam

[Nikolai]

Strobe: Alien Bees AB800
Power Setting: 1/32
Softbox: 30" x 40", depth: 20"
Light meter: Sekonic L-358
Distance from softbox to meter: 24"
Distance from strobe bulb to meter: 44"

Exposure: ISO 100, SS: 1/250, f/4.0 resulted in flash contribution of 100% (no ambient contribution).

Thank you very much, Scott, much appreciated!

[Nikolai]

When I saw this thread I was thinking I would have to get Kathy to chime in. :lol3

Nik - After reading this, I see that you definitely want to use these 'onsite' but I'm not sure if you are looking for only AC powered or battery powered.:dunno


Thanks, man!

I forgot to mention in this thread that I already do have and used many times the following lighting setup (also known as "Shay's Setup":-):

two Sunpak Auto555EX "popato masher" battery operated flash heads
two 40" brollyboxes (shoot-through umbrella), one silver 40" umbrella
two PW receivers, 1 PW transmitter (4 channels)
two 10' light stands (with heads)
Sekonic L-308S Flashmate lightmeter
Amvona Dynatran 12'x10' backdrop rack
two 8'x12' collapsible backdrops (mixed-gray and white)
3'x5' 5-in-1 collapsible reflector/shade (gold/white, silver/black, translucent)And just for the record:-)

Canon 580EX MarkII
Stroboframe Press-T bracketSo I guess I'm kinda covered for portable scenarios, I'm looking for the studio only (i.e. AC power) lights. I mean, if they also can operate on a DC power that's fine too, but it's not a priority for me.

[Nikolai]

I bought two of those -- exact same unit, exact same vendor.

One works pretty well over a range of 15-20' and I'm still using it.

The other seemed okay at first, then quickly declined until it wouldn't trigger at a range of over about 18 inches, and that only at about 50% reliabillity. I tried replacing all the batteries -- didn't help -- so threw it away.

Just a warning that "your mileage may vary."

I wonder if you can piggy-back the transmitters?
I mean - PWs work for a great distance (300ft at least), but they are expensive. However, several lights can be close to each other. So I wonder if I can use PW receiver to actiuvate an el-cheapo (EC) transmitter, which in its turn would trigger a bunch of EC recievers. i.e.
camera ==> PW transmitter ---------> PW reciever ==> EC tramsmitter ---> (EC recieviers cluster) :scratch

[Nikolai]

Here's another dirty little secret: Unless you can shoot in an environment that's otherwise almost completely dark, modeling lights don't help for visualizing your lighting effects.

By the time you've got a diffuser over them, even high-wattage tungsten modeling lights are dim compared to normal room lighting. Modeling lights that adjust proportionally are dimmer yet, so the ambient light will overwhelm them completely and you won't be able to see what they're doing at all.

One thing for which modeling lights ARE useful is spotting undesirable reflections in the subject. But this is best done with the modeling lights set at full power, so the reflections will be easier to see.

Executive summary: If the system that's otherwise best for you has proportional modeling lights, fine. But don't disqualify an otherwise-suitable system just because it lacks this one feature.

After you get some experience with your system, you'll find you use the modeling lights less and less. Personally, I only turn mine on during initial setup, to make sure I've got all the cables plugged in. Once I'm ready to start shooting, I turn them off to reduce heat buildup, which can shorten the flashtubes' life.



Speaking of heat buildup -- if you do want to use your modeling lights constantly, and decide on a system with high-wattage modeling lights (150w or more) AND if you plan to use the lights in a softbox or bank, make sure you spring for fan-cooled heads. It can get VERY hot inside a softbox without them. One time on a shoot I was forced to use a head on which the cooling fan had failed, and we were smelling smoke within five minutes.

Very interesting - again! :thumb I agree, that modeling lights are probably only needed during the initial setup. However I wonder if they can be used simply as an ambient - targeted! - light source to help the camera AF, provided the rest of the room/studio is very dark.

You are a well of a good knowledge! :bow

[jdryan3]

Very interesting - again! :thumb I agree, that modeling lights are probably only needed during the initial setup. However I wonder if they can be used simply as an ambient - targeted! - light source to help the camera AF, provided the rest of the room/studio is very dark.

Well I'm sure they could if you drag your shutter speed. But for the most part, why would you want to? The direction of the light from the modeling lights will be the same as the flash. True you could get more of a 'tungsten look' overall, but it seems to me that you would want other light sources for your ambient light to achieve shadows, contrast, etc.

The OP in this thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=81049) is teased (a little) about hot lights. IMHO, in your case well placed hot lights could give you the ambient light you want, without having to buy extra strobes dialed down as fill and with all the modifiers (snoot, softbox, grid) needed to affect the flash output.

[Scott_Quier]

Scott,

How do you shoot at 1/250 with yoiur 5D? I have a set of Alien Bees, and if I tyry using a shutter speed faser than 1/160 I have some sync issues.

Sam
I don't have a 5D (wish, sometimes, that I did). I have a 20D and a 30D and their top sync speed is 1/250.

For the test, I simply used the L-358 - no issues there.

[Scott_Quier]

Well I'm sure they could if you drag your shutter speed. But for the most part, why would you want to? The direction of the light from the modeling lights will be the same as the flash. True you could get more of a 'tungsten look' overall, but it seems to me that you would want other light sources for your ambient light to achieve shadows, contrast, etc.
Using ambient for focusing has nothing to do with dragging the shutter. Dragging the shutter is a technique to include ambient in the exposure.

Very interesting - again! I agree, that modeling lights are probably only needed during the initial setup. However I wonder if they can be used simply as an ambient - targeted! - light source to help the camera AF, provided the rest of the room/studio is very dark.Believe it or not, you can shoot with a lot of ambient light in the room and not have it contribute to the exposure - a lot more than you might think. Would you believe that I had 4 x 40W florescent tubes going when these were shot (link (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=80679))? Total contribution of these tubes to the exposure - 0.0%.

[Sam]

I don't have a 5D (wish, sometimes, that I did). I have a 20D and a 30D and their top sync speed is 1/250.

For the test, I simply used the L-358 - no issues there.

Thanks Scott. That answers my question. Your max sync speed is 1/250. The 5D is limited to 1/200. I think I remember reading that with studio strobes you might need to adjust the shutter speed to below the rated camera sync speed? Of course in most situations using strobes the difference between 1/200, and 1/250 will be negligible.

Sorry about the 5D upgrade I gave you. :D

Sam

[jdryan3]

Using ambient for focusing has nothing to do with dragging the shutter. Dragging the shutter is a technique to include ambient in the exposure.

:doh
Misread post! Kinda missed the part about AF assist.

[Scott_Quier]

Thanks Scott. That answers my question. Your max sync speed is 1/250. The 5D is limited to 1/200. I think I remember reading that with studio strobes you might need to adjust the shutter speed to below the rated camera sync speed? Of course in most situations using strobes the difference between 1/200, and 1/250 will be negligible.

Sorry about the 5D upgrade I gave you. :D

Sam
I've read that as well. Not seen that problem when shooting with the strobes.

[Nikolai]

Okay, I probably exaggerated my original post a bit. If you're working in a small area with subdued light, and can have the strobes fairly close to the subject, then yes, the modeling lights can provide enough illumination for focusing, judging of shadow directions, etc.

So if you're looking to do such types of close-in shooting as tabletop product shots or headshot portraiture, and will be working in spaces where you can subdue the ambient light, then high-wattage modeling lights will be quite useful. (Again, be sure to buy fan-cooled heads if you're going to put them in soft boxes!)

Most of my shooting with strobes involves full-body-length shots and groups, which require the lights to be positioned farther back. At these distances, the modeling lights alone don't provide enough light for AF, and the models don't like stumbling over each other in semi-darkness... so I need to leave the room lights on, which pretty much washes out any effect the modeling lights would have.

But for small, controlled-environment shooting, sure, modeling lights are very useful.

(I still don't think porportional modeling lights are that big a deal.)

Gotcha, makes thanks! Appreciate the details!

[ChatKat]

I like the modelling lights on my Profoto's - they give me a great way to see how my light will affect the image. I'd rather use the modelling lights to get the vision before I start popping the strobes. I am not sure what the life is - how many flashes - but I can say the bulbs are pricey to replace.


Gotcha, makes thanks! Appreciate the details!