Photographing on School property

[wallkillphoto]

After six months of shooting and selling action photos of local sports teams, (High School, Middle School, Soccer Clubs, Little Leagues and others) I have been advised by the local school district "to cease and desist from using school facilities for commercial purposes." However Lifetouch who has the contract for all the school posed photographs does the same thing. We won't go into the fact that this decision comes after I ran into the Lifetouch photographer at 2 games last week.

Is school property considered public property?

They also brought up that I am taking the photos and posting them on the web without parent perrmission. They made several references that child molesters and other preditors could take advantage of my site for evil purposes. Most parents sign a media relase form at the begining of the year. I asked for the database so I could cross reference and remove any photos in violation. I was stalled pointing back that it wouldn't make any difference based on their first reason.

At this point I have asked the school to more clearly define their legal position. At the moment they are only siting I am coming on school grounds to take the photos which they consider a use of school facilities. They also say the NY State Commisioner of Education stated a position that Lifetouch is performing a school service. I have a call into his office trying to get a copy of that one.

I don't have funds to mount a legal case, and honestly this is just a side business for me. But many in the community enjoy my work and want me to fight this decision. Anyone else seen a precident I can site. I know each state can be different. I live in NY.

Thanks all
Stuart
wallkillphoto.com

[Angelo]

you're both trespassing and infringing on another's rights as granted by contract.

do yourself a favor and don't fool with this one. you'll have both the school and lifetouch mounting legal challenges and they will most likely win their cases against you.

[zacker]

I agree with Angelo but I also believe the Schools are Public Property, Something to do with them being funded by tax payers..but thats just something I have seen posted on the web so i could be totally wrong too.

Yeah, messing around on School property isnt a good idea, esp. if you got a letter telling you to stop... the next thing you know is youll be getting your gear taken away and mistreated and youll look like the weirdow

[wallkillphoto]

I currently contribute 10% of sales to whatever group the photos are related to. The school has never given me who they want the check made out to or a Tax ID number. I was actually considering doing all the school work non-profit. Would that still be considered comercial if I gave all profit back to the school?

[zacker]

prolly not but if they have a contract with someone else it might stir trouble. The best thing to do is ask or ask to be considered for a request for quote so you can quote on the contract when it comes up next time.

[DawnAllynn]

It may be a public school, with everyone paying taxes to support it as mentioned before, but it's truly goverment property. Belonging to the City that runs the schools. My taxes pay for government bases as well, and I am not allowed to take photos on most bases without express permission.

I'd take a step back and go through the proper channels if you want to take photos commercially.

[i_worship_the_King]

wow... all the schools i've been to have had lifetouch contracts, but the photographers never showed up at sporting events. That's just weird to me.

Sorry you're caught in the middle of this stuff...

[RustingInPeace]

I am always amazed at the number of people in these forums that go for the "Marvin Milk-toast" approach to business. Cave in, go away, play nice, the other photographer has a contract, etc. Nutt up now or be a doormat forever.

I had some issues with the local school district here in Oregon. I chewed them up (administration) up and spit them out. They sent me the big "scare" letter, and I responded with a deluge of public information requests. You can word your request in a way that from a legal standpoint, can be frightening to the district and all of the little bureaucrats the constitute its body. We had about a dozen letters back and forth between us before they decided to step back.

Lifetouch represented even less of a problem. We had a little discussion about how the PTO would not be to happy to learn that the district was choosing the school photographer based solely on the basis of a kick-back, not competitive pricing for the parents. The policy of only allowing Lifetouch photos in the year book (for underclassmen) quietly went away.

This is a sideline business for me as well. I just really don't take kindly to anybody trying to push me around. When I get pushed, I push back, and much harder. You don't have to stand tall, but you have got to STAND UP!

The best place to start is by getting a copy of the contract awarded. I have seen several now and most DO NOT guarantee the contracted company "exclusive" rights to extra curricular activities. I also requested all documentation regarding how the contract was awarded as well as the district's written criteria for making the award. The praticular district in question could not seem to provide (I know from an inside source that they never articulated any specific criteria).

[wallkillphoto]

Thanks for the words of support. The initial letter from the school was very vague. I have asked for a clear legal position. Plus I have many parents and students on my side. I heard they are circulating petitions. I will keep you posted and hopfully if successful I can help others who may be in a similar situation.

[kirbinster]

Thanks for the words of support. The initial letter from the school was very vague. I have asked for a clear legal position. Plus I have many parents and students on my side. I heard they are circulating petitions. I will keep you posted and hopfully if successful I can help others who may be in a similar situation.


Another idea might be to do an end run around the entire thing. Get contracts from the parents that they have retained you to take photos of their kids. I would bet a parent has the right to bring his or her own photographer to an event.

[dogwood]

I had some issues with the local school district here in Oregon. I chewed them up (administration) up and spit them out. They sent me the big "scare" letter, and I responded with a deluge of public information requests.

Just curious, what was the purpose of your public information requests?

Yes, schools are public property and funded by taxpayers but that certainly doesn't mean you can just walk into a school and start shooting photos any old time you want. Imagine what kind of safety problems there would be if that was the case.

[nipprdog]

I'm not going to enter the 'yes you can/ no you can't' debate.

To me, it's irrelevant.

I would never show up at a school and start shooting without first clearing it with them. It's just good business practice. And remember, you are conducting business.:wink

If the OP had done that, he wouldn't be in his current situation; fighting the system.

Again, wether you have to or not, I just feel it's good business practice.

[bham]

Is the event a public event, meaning that the public can attend and is invited, whether paying a fee or not? The right of privacy is significantly different than when school is in session and only administrators, teachers and students are in attendance.

[wallkillphoto]

I did notify the school prior to shooting last spring. Just the wrong person I guess. I had obtained clearance from the Athletic Director. As a matter of fact I did a barter thing with them season. I took the team photo for the football team program and they gave me sideline access at football games. He also knew I was going to be attending all the sporting events. It just appears he didn't really have any authority to grant or deny me access.

This action stemmed from a complaint call to the Superintendent's office.

To the other question, all school sports events are public events. The football and basketball games are the only events that they charge addmission

[wholenewlight]

but it's truly goverment property. Belonging to the City that runs the schools. My taxes pay for government bases as well, and I am not allowed to take photos on most bases without express permission.


Government property??

Belonging to the city??

Sorry, but this whole concept bothers me. Government ownership = public ownership, the notion that government can manage the ownership of lands, streets, public buildings, utilities, and other business enterprises. The theory that all land and its resources belong ultimately to the people . The government isn't an entity that should be able to own anything, but manage our resources that we give it permision to do so for a common good. We tell the government what it can do, not the other way around.

But in today's world it is the other way around. Most people look at the government as the omnipotent authority that allows us to have rights. When in actuality it should be us allowing our elected representatives to have only the limited rights that are necessary to act as our agents.

:soapbox

When I see all the new rules and laws. . . Tonight I heard a radio commercial targeting private boaters - making sure they knew about new laws preventing them from anchoring their boats near bridges and structures.:scratch I'm sure there will soon be radio spots telling us where we can take pictures! And what we innocently can take pictures of!

I just get concerned that in our world of "evil-doers", we're handing all of our freedoms and rights over to a government (local, state, and federal) in the name of protection and safety. Because big-brother will surely take care of us . . . !

But sticking to this thread's school issue, I realize that some protection imight be necessary. And commercial contracts may be in place that prevent business competition. So your photo work may still be pushing correctly established boundaries.

Link to The Photographer's Rights (http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf)

And another good link that specifically mentions school football games - here's the link (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2006-08-11-photography-rights_x.htm)

And one more related link (http://www.kantor.com/useful/Legal-Rights-of-Photographers.pdf).


Okay, I feel better now:huh Now if only big-brother would hand me a new Nikon D3 (we all have our price).

[wxwax]

Is school property considered public property?

No.

Quite the opposite, access is tightly controlled.

They're entirely within their rights.

[bham]

nm

[bham]

No.

Quite the opposite, access is tightly controlled.

They're entirely within their rights.

I disagree that the school is within their rights to limit photography at a sporting event that is open to the public. Controling access to the school in general has become more of a security concern, but a sporting event is a public event.

[urbanaries]

I disagree that the school is within their rights to limit photography at a sporting event that is open to the public. Controling access to the school in general has become more of a security concern, but a sporting event is a public event.

However, we're not talking about just treading on the ground, or even shooting photographs of minors, but with the intention of selling them commercially? Seems like a lot of liberties to take the whole "public property" concept. :dunno

[bham]

However, we're not talking about just treading on the ground, or even shooting photographs of minors, but with the intention of selling them commercially? Seems like a lot of liberties to take the whole "public property" concept. :dunno

I am no way talking about that it is ok since it is on public property, someone else may have made that claim. I am going more by a supreme court ruling dealing with capturing images at public events. And this individual isn't really targeting a large population to purchase the images, he would only be realistically selling to friends, family, or those in the images captured at the events. Not sure about that aspect and I am not arguing that point. But just as a newspaper would have a right to come to the event to document it, also does an individual, the freedom of the press never specified a individual or a institution. I found a good link as far as information goes. It is long but has some interesting points like the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act), etc.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/rightsof/press.htm

[RustingInPeace]

Just curious, what was the purpose of your public information requests?

Yes, schools are public property and funded by taxpayers but that certainly doesn't mean you can just walk into a school and start shooting photos any old time you want. Imagine what kind of safety problems there would be if that was the case.

The purpose was to two fold. First to get information, and the second was to posture

I asked for a written copy of the policy regarding photography and yearbook photosGot a pretty weak response citing a contract.

I asked to examine a copy of the contract
I asked for a copy of the policy used during the selection of contract photographerGot another anemic response (the really had not laid out a formal set of criteria)

So I asked for the names and titles of the administrators who approved the contract
I also asked for copies of the notes, minutes, and any other related collateral materials from the work session
Asked that the district also disclose any pertinent relationships between the contract company and members of the work group that oversaw the awarding of the contract
Asked where in the budget I could find the related district income from the relationshipThey blinked. Pretty much did not want to provide the information. Instead the rescinded their cease and desist letter. They welcomed me to a part of the academic experience for the students.

[bham]

Also in another thread here on dgrin an interesting paper done on photography and the right to privacy. Here is the link:

http://rrdphoto.com/files/Photography-and-the-Right-to-Privacy.pdf

[BRATCH]

After six months of shooting and selling action photos of local sports teams, (High School, Middle School, Soccer Clubs, Little Leagues and others) I have been advised by the local school district "to cease and desist from using school facilities for commercial purposes." However Lifetouch who has the contract for all the school posed photographs does the same thing. We won't go into the fact that this decision comes after I ran into the Lifetouch photographer at 2 games last week.

Is school property considered public property?

They also brought up that I am taking the photos and posting them on the web without parent perrmission. They made several references that child molesters and other preditors could take advantage of my site for evil purposes. Most parents sign a media relase form at the begining of the year. I asked for the database so I could cross reference and remove any photos in violation. I was stalled pointing back that it wouldn't make any difference based on their first reason.

At this point I have asked the school to more clearly define their legal position. At the moment they are only siting I am coming on school grounds to take the photos which they consider a use of school facilities. They also say the NY State Commisioner of Education stated a position that Lifetouch is performing a school service. I have a call into his office trying to get a copy of that one.

I don't have funds to mount a legal case, and honestly this is just a side business for me. But many in the community enjoy my work and want me to fight this decision. Anyone else seen a precident I can site. I know each state can be different. I live in NY.

Thanks all
Stuart
wallkillphoto.com
You mentioned the privacy policy with the school system and about posting photos on the web without parents permission.

I happen to work for a weekly newspaper where I live and the fact of the matter is, if I roll into a high school sporting event I can guarantee that a photo of a kid is going up on my newspaper's web site. And they can't do anything about it because they are holding a sporting event and they are charging the public admission. Or they are at least inviting the public to the event even if they aren't charging admission.

Also, every athlete on all of those sports teams, since they play their sports in public, are public figures. By participating in a sport that they know each game is open to the public, they're privacy rights are out the window as far as taking their photos.

As far as I can tell, your problem is that the schools have a contract with Lifetouch to do their commercial photography. If that is the case they can restrict access to the prime shooting areas for media and their photographers which happens to be Lifetouch. This also means that they should issue credentials for the season or something like that.

However, that doesn't restrict you from sitting in the first row with your camera and getting all of the shots you want. And for basketball games I cover I sometimes sit in the front row and shoot for a different angle.

Don't worry about privacy issues and child predators because they have Myspace now and privacy issues about athletes from the schools doesn't hold water. There are 25 cameras in the stands for every game I go to and the only difference between them and me is that I get to move around the sideline area. If privacy is the problem then they would ban all cameras from the event.

I don't know what the media situation is around where you are, but you could also go to the local newspaper with some samples and tell them you'll shoot the games for free as long as you could retain the rights to the photos for sales. At that point you become the media and you have the newspaper's clout behind you. The old saying of "never anger anyone that buys paper by the ton and ink by the barrel" comes into play.

There is no way the school system would attempt to put restrictions on the media and what they can do with their photos. For you, they can probably restrict your access, but if you buy a ticket and sit in the stands you can shoot all you want.

You also might consider appealing to the individual sports booster clubs. If Lifetouch doesn't give the coverage you do as far as going to all the events, they could lobby for you to be given access to shoot because they want your photos.

The one thing I wouldn't do is get angry with them. Asking for them to clarify their stance is fine, but if you stay on their good side you could lobby for a change next year where you do the sporting events and Lifetouch does the rest. Especially if you can get the boosters behind you and your work is better than theirs.

Hope that helps,

BRATCH

[wallkillphoto]

You people are great!!! I can't thank you enough for all your information and advise.

Stuart
wallkillphoto.com

[KMCC]

In my case, all concern about my photographing of high school sporting events disappeared once the school's contract photographer was contacted and learned that I would only be shooting game action.

The contract photographer informed the school that they had no problem with my work; as long as I stayed away from posed individual and team photographs.

Very peaceful coexistance abounds.

[BRATCH]

In my case, all concern about my photographing of high school sporting events disappeared once the school's contract photographer was contacted and learned that I would only be shooting game action.

The contract photographer informed the school that they had no problem with my work; as long as I stayed away from posed individual and team photographs.

Very peaceful coexistance abounds.

Tim makes a good point. Most photographers want the cash for the posed and team shots because their money is guaranteed. Whereas we sports photographers rely on a lot of luck and it's likely that we may not get a good action photo of every player on every team.

And the parents of the best players, of which we have what seems like gigabytes of photos, will only purchase so many photos.

The only reason I put my photos online is because there is really no way for people to see my photos and if they wanted to buy them it was a pain in the butt to make trips to have them printed. And most of the time I don't want to waste an hour of my time for a single 4x6 print that I'm selling for a couple of bucks.

[Kevin G]

So if I may interrupt...

Once you take the action shots of the players, how do you inform their parents that they can purchase the prints and where they can purchase them from?

[SloYerRoll]

I've seen dozens of Lifetouch contracts. Some retain exclusive rights, some don't. It is up to the area sales reps and their legal dept on how their contracts are worded. So this changes drasticly from territory to territory.

Lifetouch has a major advantage in cetain arenas in regards to pricing. Do you know why Lifetouch is so big? They were able to underbid on most contracts due to econiomies of scale (it's cheaper to buy 100,000 prints per unit than to buy 50). So even WITH kickbacks, reshoots, all the other hidden costs that are associated with them that would financially drown you as a photographer. Lifetouch can usually still charge less than the average shooter and maintain a profitable business model. People that shoot on the side sometimes loose site of this since they don't have to charge to cover their overhead. They can just charge as low as they want to get the job. Which isn't part of the photography business. It's part of an expensive hobby. Nothing wrong at all with that. I just want you to keep a level headed view of what your getting into.

If your just in there to have fun. Underbid the crap out of them and get the contract (if you want the contract). If your trying to do this as a means of sole financial income and they push, PLEASE make sure you know what their contract says before you go pushing back. LT has monsterous financial backing. Push comes to shove and you end up in court with your legal begal then they have a fleet of lawyers come in thirsty for blood...

I'm no legal person. I do like to exercise common sense though...
Hopes this helps a bit.

-Jon

[SloYerRoll]

So if I may interrupt...

Once you take the action shots of the players, how do you inform their parents that they can purchase the prints and where they can purchase them from?Hey Kevin,
Allot of ppl just have bizcards they hand out.
Some ppl also create an empty gallery before the event then write the gallery name on the back of the bizcard. THis allows the parent (or whoever) to easily navigate to your gallery when their back at home.

[wallkillphoto]

So if I may interrupt...

Once you take the action shots of the players, how do you inform their parents that they can purchase the prints and where they can purchase them from?

I have cards but I also have a brochure that I hand out during halftime or between innings or whatever. I make it a joke walking among the parents saying it's the halftime comercial. The brochure has some examplse of my work and explains I contribute money back to the organization. I use a matte tri fold brochure paper from Office Max or Staples. Something that is not too expensive but still shows the photos with good quality.

If they are really interested this usually gives the parents a chance to point out there child. If they do that I know I have a sale so I make sure I get some good shots of their child. Even if they are a bench warmer I try and get a good candid close up head shot of them watching the game. They always sell.

[wallkillphoto]

For those who have been following, here is the latest update.

Originally the School Administration was preventing me on the grounds I was using school property for comercial purposes. I had always saw wallkillphoto.com more as a fund raising vehicle anyway more than one for personal profit. So I have managed to get documented "in school" support for my efforts.

Now they are trying to prevent me because I use the internet as a sales method rather than old style "print and Pray" they buy them. Even though I have offered to circulate and compile release forms from all students. Even though I have offered to password protect my entire site. Their other offer was for me to abandon my site. Set up a PC at events to show my work and take orders. Actually they want the in school rep to take the orders and pass them on to me.

Another argument of theirs, currently all fund raisers the money comes into the school through the "in school" group. They circulate flyers or candy or whatever and then collect money and pass it on to the manufacturer. I tried to open their eyes that this may be the way things are now but in the not too distant future we will probably place these orders on line and just have to put in our school code to make sure we get credit. And we won't be dealing with the ordering, processing, bad checks, and all the other stuff we do now.

Bottom line, I'm in a &!$$ing contest with an administrator that didn't like my idea and is now doing whatever he can to stop me. There is no win/win with this guy. Either he wins or I do. Fortunately I have been able to move past him and it is not his decision. Ultimately it will be the Board of Education that will decide and they have been much more receptive to my proposal.

I have met with the Board's Policy committee and they requested the names of other Schools and Sites in NY state that do what I do. A very quick search of just SmugMug yeilded several sites including one school that uses SmugMug themselves.

I also requested on my site and sent out an email to my customer base to please send a message to the Board of Ed expressing their opinion either pro or con. To date I have been copied on about 20 very possitive emails to the Board and no negative ones.

So at the moment I am in a bit of limbo as the Administrator tries to drag his feet and slow the approval process. I think ultimately I will win, I just hope I don't lose the winter sport season while they make a decision.

Thanks again to everyone for their advice. It was very useful and appreciated.

[JBurt]

They also brought up that I am taking the photos and posting them on the web without parent perrmission. They made several references that child molesters and other preditors could take advantage of my site for evil purposes. Most parents sign a media relase form at the begining of the year. I asked for the database so I could cross reference and remove any photos in violation. I was stalled pointing back that it wouldn't make any difference based on their first reason.


A quote from this article linked to in a previous post is worth considering.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2006-08-11-photography-rights_x.htm

For example, if you shoot individual kids playing in a school football game, you can't try to sell those shots to the parents; the kids have a right to the use of their likeness. You can sell photos of the game in general, though, and any shots where what's happening ("A player celebrates a goal") is more important than who's doing it ("Star running back John Doe takes a momentary rest").

Sound like a gray area? It is if you're planning to sell the pictures, but not if you're simply displaying them. And if you're using them for news purposes, all bets are off — you can pretty much publish whatever you want if it happens in public view.


I quit doing school events. It was simply not worth my time compared to other events.

[evoryware]

I did notify the school prior to shooting last spring. Just the wrong person I guess. I had obtained clearance from the Athletic Director. As a matter of fact I did a barter thing with them season. I took the team photo for the football team program and they gave me sideline access at football games. He also knew I was going to be attending all the sporting events. It just appears he didn't really have any authority to grant or deny me access.

This action stemmed from a complaint call to the Superintendent's office.

To the other question, all school sports events are public events. The football and basketball games are the only events that they charge addmission

The Athletic Director can make the decision if you are a claiming to be a member of the press. So if you are selling your pics to papers and magazines, then okay. But that is not what you appear to be doing. Now I think you have to deal with league directors, etc.
But I would keep fighting it.

[bkatz]

I was aksed to do a high school soccer game but the athletic director realized at the end that the parents sign a release about likeness etc not appearing on the web or in the paper.

I do password protect the galleries and give the cards to parents and coach only but wondering if this is something worth fighting since I have parents who want the photos but can't follow my normal workflow that I do for the other soccer games I shoot.

I know I have the rights to be there and shoot but it is the making it available to the parents that seems to be the issue.

[wallkillphoto]

I was aksed to do a high school soccer game but the athletic director realized at the end that the parents sign a release about likeness etc not appearing on the web or in the paper.



Our school also circulates a release form to all students at the begining of the year. While the school will not tell me, I have heard from a reliable source that it is only a handful that won't let their photos be used.
And since the school has started busting my chops they now circulate a second separate release form to all athletes that allows their photos to be shown just about anywhere except my web site. It mentions periodicals, television, cable television, radio, newspapers, school district website, and school distric publications.

I need to inform them of recent ruling of bloggers getting press credentials.

[dylansdigitals]

I have recently started shooting high school photography. Do I need to get a release from everyone that I shoot that may end up on my website? I know a lot of the schools in the area offer some sort of photo release at the beginning of the year but I'm not sure of the specifics. Would it be worthwhile to find out what this says or should I some how write up a release of my own and have it available at the games?

Thanks:scratch

[snaptie2002]

[quote=wallkillphoto]
Originally the School Administration was preventing me on the grounds I was using school property for comercial purposes. I had always saw wallkillphoto.com more as a fund raising vehicle anyway more than one for personal profit. So I have managed to get documented "in school" support for my efforts.quote]

Geez.......listen to yourself. Originally you were using school grounds for comercial purposes. When it became an issue you change from offering 10% that apparently no one wanted to "now it's more of a fund raising vehicle."

Now your position appears to be"You will let me raise funds for you whether you like it or not."

Looks like the more they try to tell you they don't want you there the more you try to force your way in. Are you losing sight of your objective?

Suppose you do get in? You get to work your butt off to give the school a little chump change that they didn't ask for and clearly don't want?

Someone said a few post back that after a lenghty run around that they were welcomed into the fold (I'm paraphrasing), believe me, welcomed is not the right word. Our company has what we call "shut up and go away money". Sometimes it is easier and cheaper to give in on minor issues than it is to keep dealing with some hard head that just will not let go.

If that is someone's idea of a victory, more power to them. Seems pretty shallow to me.

The more you stir this the more it will stink. The more it stinks the harder you make it for professional photographers to make a living.

Sorry to let you have it with both barrells but I think you need to step back and examine your motives. Is it because you don't like to be told no? Or is there a large sum of money to be made? Is there a sound business justification that you have not mentioned?

What ever it is I hope it is worth it. The schools have a very important job to do and dealing with this deal has to be distracting them from it.

That's all I have.....I need a cup of coffee

[wallkillphoto]

When it became an issue was when I ran into the national company's photographer at a couple of games and they became aware of me as competition. Then surprisingly all this started. There are only one or two school administrators who are trying to stop me not the school district as a whole. They claim there were complaints but have yet to produce any evidence to this. And when asked for any documentation they acted like children. I have a stack of emails praising my efforts and I'm happy to share them with anyone who wants to read them. The parents and students love what I do. And no, there is no great financial gain for me or the school but what's the harm. The kids love to see their photo's. The parents occassionaly like to buy them and a few dollars go back to the organizations. Which some use to help pay for some of the less fortunate families kids who can't afford the soccer league dues or uniform items and things.
You bring up a good point. They must be busy with real issues. If this is how this administration acts over a trivial win/win situation like this then how will they act over somethng with substance.

[ccimages]

Thankfully, I didn't have that problem with our local school. I went to our local paper and told the sports guy that I had a camera and lens that I wanted to try out at a couple of the games. He gave me a pass so I could get into the games with the request that I submit a shot or two to the paper. I shot for a couple of games and had all these photos that weren't doing anyone any good just sitting on my PC. So, I called the principal and asked if I could put them out on my flickr account for the kids, parents, etc. to look at. I then went to the Quarterback Club (football boosters) and talked to them about selling the photos. They thought it would be a great idea for me to make some money for my time and expenses of going to the games since I had no kids playing. So, we are actually splitting the profit (after printing costs) 50-50. That way, I feel I am contributing to the kids and they are getting some benefit as well as myself. The parents go to my flickr account, then call or e-mail me with the pictures they want. I print them and take them to the next week's game and they buy them at the QB Club's booth where they sell buttons, t-shirts, etc. along with my photos. Doing that led to the basketball boosters asking if I would be interested in doing the team photos and attending some of the games to get shots to sell. I am also going to donate all of the photos to the yearbook staff so they can use them. Another angle of giving something to the kids. Doing that has made me rather popular with the kids, faculty and parents. And everyone is happy . . .

To note: the "school photographer" showed up at half-time of the homecoming game to take pictures of the homecoming court and was never seen again. That was the next to last game of the year.

[johng]

a very interesting debate. I can understand both sides of the issue.

First, if there is indeed a contract in place that grants a specific party the sole rights to photograph the team from the playing area then that contract should be honored. If that is the case, then the course of action is to get in on the bidding process.

But, I can say I face a similar issue. I have been working freelance for several years for a local paper as well as selling to the parents. Both the paper and school are aware of this duality and are OK with it. The problem I run into is when there are specific contracts to be awarded - those contracts go to a relative of the former AD (this AD took another position this past year in the same school system but the relative's outfit still continues to get the few contracts the school awards). I can't even get the school administration to even entertain a bid from me. They don't even want to look at my material (and don't have any type of open bidding - so not a matter of just me they don't consider any other outfits). So, I can completely understand frustration at being closed out of opportunities because of back room deals. Note: only few events have an actual photogrpher contracted - most games do not and the school allows any outfit to shoot/sell since there has never been a problem and at most only 3 outfits trying.

So, my take is this - continue to pursue, but do it in the right channels. Find out what the contract grants the other company and what it doesn't. Then work within the system to either gain the contract after it's present term OR to get authority for your own work.

Good luck!

[ArchiTexas]

Just a thought here, but as a practical business matter being a real pain in the side of a school district does not bode well for your future opportunities of engaging in business with them.

I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, but it is the way things usually go. I know that I usually avoid dealing with businesses that have been a real pain for me in the past. I've seen your website, and there are some great images there; it would be a shame for you to be branded as "confrontational" or "difficult" and to get a bad reputation with the client you are pursuing. You are essentially trying to force them to do business with you - which is a tough sell in any industry. Districts do talk to each other you know, make sure that when your name comes up it's because of the quality of your work and not because of the headaches you're causing them. Who do you expect is going to want that?

[jonh68]

I have recently started shooting high school photography. Do I need to get a release from everyone that I shoot that may end up on my website? I know a lot of the schools in the area offer some sort of photo release at the beginning of the year but I'm not sure of the specifics. Would it be worthwhile to find out what this says or should I some how write up a release of my own and have it available at the games?

Thanks:scratch

If it's a sporting event, the kids should have a signed release forms already because they are public figures so to speak and their pictures will be published in the paper. It's not feasable for a paper to check to see if it's OK to print the child in a paper if it's sports related. I put the pictures i take freelancing on my website and don't think twice. I do say if there is a picture that a parent/student don't want posted, let me know. It's a public event as well.

Plus, you would be spending so much time trying to get forms signed, you would not have time to shoot!

If it's a school event, classroom picture, that's different. I shoot school events/stories as well and some parents do not want their child in the paper. I get with the teacher, administration to point out the kids who can't be in the paper and keep them either seperated from other kids or just make sure they are not in the background. The same would apply to posting on your website.

[Dalado]

Recently I wrote a letter to the school board and asked permission to shoot from their sidelines and sell my photos on my site. I detailed the security measures on my site and what my intentions are.

After talking to the solicitor, aka. lawyer, I recieved a letter saying they "...can't endorse, or seem to edorse my project." They asked that I "..carefully follow the law and respect the students privacy."

So, what ever that means, who knows. It seems though that they couldn't find any reason to simply say no, but can't say yes as well. Is that what everyone else takes from that??


Dalado

[tonichelle]

I think you have your answer, they don't want you to go on with it... :dunno


same sort of thing happens in figure skating, I have skating parents that want to compensate me for photos they liked of their skaters, but I can't take a dime (not even for simple printing costs!) and so I give them the photos and just ask for an autograph in return

[wallkillphoto]

For those that have followed this saga my solution was to give up on donatations and try a different approach.

My solution in the end was to start a second web site where I report on local sporting news. Now as a member of the media I can attend, photograph, and report on sporting events. And if I choose to sell my photos after publication (just as several local newspapers do) then it is my right to do so.

[LUCKYSHOT]

For those who have been following, here is the latest update.

Originally the School Administration was preventing me on the grounds I was using school property for comercial purposes. I had always saw wallkillphoto.com more as a fund raising vehicle anyway more than one for personal profit. So I have managed to get documented "in school" support for my efforts.

Now they are trying to prevent me because I use the internet as a sales method rather than old style "print and Pray" they buy them. Even though I have offered to circulate and compile release forms from all students. Even though I have offered to password protect my entire site. Their other offer was for me to abandon my site. Set up a PC at events to show my work and take orders. Actually they want the in school rep to take the orders and pass them on to me.

Another argument of theirs, currently all fund raisers the money comes into the school through the "in school" group. They circulate flyers or candy or whatever and then collect money and pass it on to the manufacturer. I tried to open their eyes that this may be the way things are now but in the not too distant future we will probably place these orders on line and just have to put in our school code to make sure we get credit. And we won't be dealing with the ordering, processing, bad checks, and all the other stuff we do now.

Bottom line, I'm in a &!$$ing contest with an administrator that didn't like my idea and is now doing whatever he can to stop me. There is no win/win with this guy. Either he wins or I do. Fortunately I have been able to move past him and it is not his decision. Ultimately it will be the Board of Education that will decide and they have been much more receptive to my proposal.

I have met with the Board's Policy committee and they requested the names of other Schools and Sites in NY state that do what I do. A very quick search of just SmugMug yeilded several sites including one school that uses SmugMug themselves.

I also requested on my site and sent out an email to my customer base to please send a message to the Board of Ed expressing their opinion either pro or con. To date I have been copied on about 20 very possitive emails to the Board and no negative ones.

So at the moment I am in a bit of limbo as the Administrator tries to drag his feet and slow the approval process. I think ultimately I will win, I just hope I don't lose the winter sport season while they make a decision.

Thanks again to everyone for their advice. It was very useful and appreciated.

I shoot mostly sports, so this topic is of great interest to me, I dont want to come off badly or mean but I have to tell you, your not doing yourself or fellow sport photographers any good by going to war with these people and pissing them off.
If the other company has Exclusive rights, then dont even try to sell your pics. A lot of us here buy these rights and when someone come along and either gives pics away or trys to sell pictures then what you are doing is undercutting a fellow photographer.
If they dont have the exclusive rights , then try try working with the company that has the "in" and isnt doing action, that way the school will let you be there and everyones happy. But to butt heads with them or take the I win or they win attitude isnt good business. This isnt Google vs Microsoft here.
I sponsor Little league orginazations & teams and they give me the exclusive rights, I shoot High School and they kindly let me on there fields, If they dont want me there, I will shoot elsewhere, no harm no foul. Is it really in your best interest to be where the school doesnt want you? You can stand on a hilltop shouting out your Pro emails and the your First ammendnent rights. but reality says its pay to play, its who you know, and its who you schmooze.
Being in the right doesnt always mean you will win,and even if you do, these people have an end around everything.
Like I said, no offense, But i am one of those guys who has exclusive rights contracts and I wouldnt take kindly to you shooting one of my games.
All the best
Chris
www.longislandimage.com (http://www.longislandimage.com)