Proposed new shipping prices

[Baldy]

Lllaaaaddieeeeees and gentlemen!

Today we use EZ Prints' shipping calculator. Ugh. :cry If their servers are slow, we're slow. And they determine what our customers will be charged.

So we created our own calculator. Before we go live we wanted to pass it by youz. The goals are:

1. Display shipping real-time in the cart as stuff is added/removed.
2. Direct more high-value orders to priority mail, which is much faster and more reliable than 1st class, which is awful.
3. Incentivize large orders.
4. Simplify the rates.

Bottom line:

Small orders will cost about a buck more, large orders will be a whole lot cheaper. The new rates will equal Printroom and Exposure Manager for very small orders, but be much cheaper for medium and large orders. We'll be higher than Shutterfly and Snapfish for small orders, nearly equivalent for medium, and lower for most large.

Proposed new rates:

1. Up to 50 prints 5x7 or below can go 1st class for $2.95

So if you are a person who frequently orders three 4x6 prints, you'll be asked to pony up $1.20 more. Some will complain.

2. More than 50 or larger than 5x7 go priority mail for $4.95 + $2 for every $20 increase in order value

Pro markups are not used in the calculation.

The worst case is the person who orders one 8x10. Now they don't get a 1st-class option like they once did. But they will get their prints quickly and reliably now. Did I mention that 1st-class is awful, especially for people who order 8x10s?

But aside from that case, it gets very sweet for people who order more than a few prints.

3. 2-day FedEX is $9.95 + $2.50 per additional $20 of merchandise.

4. 1-day FedEX is $18.95 + $3.00 per additional $20 of merchandise.

5. Mounted canvas prints add $5 per unit to the normal rates.

Int'l is just a multiple of domestic, like 1.5x for Canada and 2x for most of Western Europe, etc.

We're not trying to make money on shipping, per se, like Printroom and EM seem to do. But we don't like to lose money on small orders like we do now. Or lose large orders due to the steep rates we have to charge because we lose on small orders.

This is pretty much ready to roll unless you have objections or can think of something better.

Thanks!
Baldy

[AnneMcBean]

A few examples to make this more tangible:

EXAMPLE 1
Order 520 4x6 prints and you'll have three options:
Priority mail ($12.95)
Second Businessday ($19.95)
Next Businessday ($30.95)

Explanation: No first class option because you've got more than 50 prints. 520 4x6 prints at SmugMug's catalog price is $98.80, so base shipping price + 4x the increment price.

EZ Prints comparison: Same order shipped today would be $30.45 PM, $35.45 SBD, and $42.45 NBD.


EXAMPLE 2
Order 30 4x6 prints, 4 5x7s, an 8x10, and a 16x20.

You'll have three options:
Priority mail ($6.95)
Second Businessday ($12.45)
Next Businessday ($21.95)

Explanation: No first class option because you've got larger format prints.
Order total is $33.63 based on SmugMug's catalog prices. So, base shipping + 1 increment .

EZ Prints comparison: Same order shipped today would be PM ($8.45), SBD ($14.45), NBD ($22.45)

EXAMPLE 3
Order a mug, a 20x30 mounted canvas, and a mousepad.

You'll have three options:
Priority mail ($23.95)
Second Businessday ($32.45)
Next Businessday ($44.95)

Explanation:
$147.85 is your SmugMug catalog total. So, base price plus 7x the increment plus $5 extra for the wrapped canvas.

EZ Prints comparison: Same order shipped today would be PM ($20.95), SBD ($33.95 USD), NBD ($43.95 USD)

EXAMPLE 4
Order 35 4x6s and 6 5x7s

You'll have four options:
First Class ($2.95)
Priority mail ($4.95)
Second Businessday ($9.95)
Next Businessday ($16.95)

Explanation: Less than 50 prints 5x7 or smaller, so First Class is an option. SmugMug catalog total is $12.59 .

EZ Prints comparison: FC ($3.75), PM ($6.95), SBD ($11.95), NBD ($18.95)

-Anne

[dmc]

... + $2 for every $20 increase in order value
... + $2.50 per additional $20 of merchandise.
... + $3.00 per additional $20 of merchandise.

my only peeve is that I don't like "Shipping and Handling" charges based on "value" of the purchase... I agree that small orders (3-4x6's, 2-5x7's and one 8x10) involves alot of handling, packaging (envelopes) etc and should be priced accordingly to not loose money.

On the other hand, simply adding additional shipping and handling charges based on multiples of $20 merchandise value (that's a 10% surcharge) may not always be fair... I can think of examples where you are buying something pricey, but it doesn't weigh much, or involve much handling.... I don't like this part.

[AnneMcBean]

my only peeve is that I don't like "Shipping and Handling" charges based on "value" of the purchase... I agree that small orders (3-4x6's, 2-5x7's and one 8x10) involves alot of handling, packaging (envelopes) etc and should be priced accordingly to not loose money.

On the other hand, simply adding additional shipping and handling charges based on multiples of $20 merchandise value (that's a 10% surcharge) may not always be fair... I can think of examples where you are buying something pricey, but it doesn't weigh much, or involve much handling.... I don't like this part.

Thanks for the feedback! Can you give me a "for instance" of an order you're worried about fairness for? I'd be glad to give you a $ amount for what you'd pay for that order currently, as well as a $ amount of what you'll pay with the new shipping calculator.

Just to be clear, EZ Prints charges us S&H based on # of prints, with larger formats, gifts, canvas, etc. being extra. Or in other words, they already charge more for the "pricey" stuff.

-Anne

[DJ-S1]

When I do Little League photos many parents are ordering less than a dozen 4x6's at a time. Am I correct in saying that their shipping will run about a dollar more than current pricing?

On occasion I order a large print if I really like one of my shots. I recently ordered 2 20x30 lustre prints - will the shipping jump considerably on an order like this?

Since you are generating the shipping options, can I disable the first class shipping option altogether for my photos?

Does this change mean that Smugmug will be staying with the awful USPS as the exclusive carrier for the foreseeable future or are you still considering alternative shipping?

[denisegoldberg]

Does this change mean that Smugmug will be staying with the awful USPS as the exclusive carrier for the foreseeable future or are you still considering alternative shipping?
Interesting... I find priority mail to be a good shipping method. So I'll put my vote in to continue to have priority mail as an option here.

Just curious, have you had problems with priority mail, or is it first class that is the problem?

--- Denise

[DJ-S1]

Interesting... I find priority mail to be a good shipping method. So I'll put my vote in to continue to have priority mail as an option here.

Just curious, have you had problems with priority mail, or is it first class that is the problem?

--- DeniseI have an issue with Priority Mail in general because it is not a guaranteed delivery even though they market it heavily as such. It states "average 2 to 3 days" and that's all. I had a PM package take 2 weeks (not from Smugmug). This was a while back and they may have changed the policy, but at the time there was no recourse for me.

Perhaps "awful" was a bit strong... but there have been other threads asking why they use USPS and they said they may be considering alternatives. Just wondering if this is a step towards that or not.:dunno

[scwalter]

my only peeve is that I don't like "Shipping and Handling" charges based on "value" of the purchase... I agree that small orders (3-4x6's, 2-5x7's and one 8x10) involves alot of handling, packaging (envelopes) etc and should be priced accordingly to not loose money.

On the other hand, simply adding additional shipping and handling charges based on multiples of $20 merchandise value (that's a 10% surcharge) may not always be fair... I can think of examples where you are buying something pricey, but it doesn't weigh much, or involve much handling.... I don't like this part.

:thumbI agree with DMC. I believe shipping rates should be based solely on the size and quantity of the items purchased. In making shipping rates variable with the purchase price, I see this as Smugmug just taking a bigger piece of the pie from my customers. If I'm a wedding photographer charging $6 for a 4x6 and someone orders 20 prints, they will pay a lot of shipping charges compared to ordering from their Uncle Joe, who has basic account and only charges $0.19 for 4x6 prints. Why should smugmug get a larger sum from my customers?

-Scott

[Dbl]

Most of my SM orders are individuals and smaller amounts, 10 photos or less so I can't say I am real thrilled with an increase for my customers. All of my larger prints are done at outside labs. I pay less than $10 for shipping on posters and over a $100 order the shipping is FREE. I normally get them within 2-3 days of order! So I don't use SM for anything above an 8 x 10. All of my large orders I do through WHCC and I end up with free shipping and the order in my hands 2 days later. Sorry, doesn't sound like the new pricing will help my average customer at all.

[AnneMcBean]

When I do Little League photos many parents are ordering less than a dozen 4x6's at a time. Am I correct in saying that their shipping will run about a dollar more than current pricing?

On occasion I order a large print if I really like one of my shots. I recently ordered 2 20x30 lustre prints - will the shipping jump considerably on an order like this?

Since you are generating the shipping options, can I disable the first class shipping option altogether for my photos?

Does this change mean that Smugmug will be staying with the awful USPS as the exclusive carrier for the foreseeable future or are you still considering alternative shipping?

Thanks for weighing in. Yes, the little League parents will no longer have any shipping option cheaper than $2.95 . But, they can order up to 50 prints for that price without getting dinged. (Currently, every 10 prints hikes the rate up $.50)

We don't have any immediate plans to allow pros to disable first class shipping, sorry. But again, only 50 prints or less, 5x7 or smaller will have a First Class option.

These changes are NOT on EZ Prints end. So no, the carrier is not going to change. We hate dealing with USPS Economy "lost in the mail issues" and that was a motivating factor in encouraging the larger orders, and larger prints, to go Priority.

-Anne

[AnneMcBean]

:thumbI agree with DMC. I believe shipping rates should be based solely on the size and quantity of the items purchased. In making shipping rates variable with the purchase price, I see this as Smugmug just taking a bigger piece of the pie from my customers. If I'm a wedding photographer charging $6 for a 4x6 and someone orders 20 prints, they will pay a lot of shipping charges compared to ordering from their Uncle Joe, who has basic account and only charges $0.19 for 4x6 prints. Why should smugmug get a larger sum from my customers?

-Scott

Hi Scott,

Sorry we weren't more clear on this point. Pro pricing does NOT impact shipping rates. We calculate shipping based on SmugMug's catalog pricee for the products being orders. So 75 4x6s at $5 a pop will ship for the same price as the ones you order yourself at $.19 a pop.

I think if you'll read some of the examples, you'll see we'll often come out cheaper than EZ Prints with these new shipping prices. They haven't changed their rates they charge us, so we're eating the difference.

Also, basing solely on "size and quantity" correlates very well with price. If you look at our catalog, almost without exception the bigger the print, the more $$ it costs. The more prints you order, the more $$ your total order will cost...

-Anne

[Andy]

Sorry, doesn't sound like the new pricing will help my average customer at all.
One thing we hope to be able to do is promote that they can order "up to" 50 prints and get the same fee - so we think this might have a positive effect, more ordering......

[AnneMcBean]

Most of my SM orders are individuals and smaller amounts, 10 photos or less so I can't say I am real thrilled with an increase for my customers. All of my larger prints are done at outside labs. I pay less than $10 for shipping on posters and over a $100 order the shipping is FREE. I normally get them within 2-3 days of order! So I don't use SM for anything above an 8 x 10. All of my large orders I do through WHCC and I end up with free shipping and the order in my hands 2 days later. Sorry, doesn't sound like the new pricing will help my average customer at all.

Thanks for letting us know how you feel.

Just to clarify, Priority mail and SBD will stay the same price for your customers. In fact, they'll likely be cheaper now if they order even a single print above 5x7 in size.

The new shipping is meant to encourage customers to put that 11th print in the cart, because EZ Prints charges $0.50 extra to ship 11 small format prints, rather than 10. We won't. EZ Prints dings you $0.25 for each 8x10 you order. We won't.

However, less than 10 prints, less than 5x7 in size, means your customers will pay an extra $1.20 in shipping. Hopefully that's not a deal-breaker for them. :dunno

-Anne

[Baldy]

Most of my SM orders are individuals and smaller amounts, 10 photos or less so I can't say I am real thrilled with an increase for my customers. All of my larger prints are done at outside labs. I pay less than $10 for shipping on posters and over a $100 order the shipping is FREE. I normally get them within 2-3 days of order! So I don't use SM for anything above an 8 x 10. All of my large orders I do through WHCC and I end up with free shipping and the order in my hands 2 days later. Sorry, doesn't sound like the new pricing will help my average customer at all.Hi Dbl,

This is an interesting idea and we've toyed with models to make this possible. Whcc's model is to have a minimum order size of $12 and 4x6 print prices of 70 cents unless you order more than 5 of a given print, and then the price goes to 26 cents (but still a $12 minumum order).

We're trying to strike a balance between offering reasonable shipping for both small and large orders, but we're open to balancing it differently. It just seemed to me that this way no one gets dinged a lot for small orders, but they get a big break on larger ones.

[Dbl]

Hey thanks guys for the responses. I am by no means complaining on this issue, just looking at my sales figures and drawing some conclusions. Honestly I don't know if it will effect my sales or not but I don't think it will increase sales to get a bit of a break in shipping. I hope I am wrong.

Its tough, I know you are in a bit of a dilemma on what will work here, you do have to weigh what is for the best in the majority of your customers, I am just letting you know some of us MAY feel some of those effects. Fortunately most of my profits come on the larger print sales which are done through other vender's so its not make or break for me. My SM sales are almost all 4x6 and 5x7 so I am guessing they will be paying more.

I guess anything you can do to help speed up the shipping by offering better options is a plus. I have not been a fan of the USPS economy shipping at all. Thanks for taking a look at this issue, I know I am probably not fitting your average customer but I thought you should hear some feedback from someone who generally has smaller orders. As Andy said maybe it will encourage more orders up to 50 prints.

[Cindy]

Mpix makes shipping rates SO SIMPLE. I love it. Easy for me, super easy for customers.
Note: Their not loosing money on shipping (the increase sales & profit more than pay for the simple rates - and many of their print rates are less allready). I order more simply because it's based on a flat fee.

See MPIX Shipping rates at: http://www.mpix.com/help.aspx (http://www.mpix.com/help.aspx) or read as copied below...
Mpix sets the standard for quick delivery. Most of our orders ship within 24 hours! For your convenience there is a flat shipping charge regardless of the number of prints ordered.

When ordering choose between our
FedEx - Next Business Day Service: $9.75
USPS-Priority: $4.95
or regular USPS shipping: $2.50

(note: their USPS first class shipping at $2.50
is limited to 50 prints or less sized 4x6 or smaller.)

[Cindy]

FedEx - Next Business Day: Smugmug: $16.95 Plus verses MPIX: $9.75 flat lower fee.
USPS-Priority: Smugmug: $4.95 plus verses MPIX: $4.95 flat fee
USPS shipping: Smugmug: $2.95 (up to 50 5x7) verses MPIX: $2.50 (up to 50 4x6)

[Andy]

FedEx - Next Business Day: Smugmug: $16.95 Plus verses MPIX: $9.75 flat lower fee.
USPS-Priority: Smugmug: $4.95 plus verses MPIX: $4.95 flat fee
USPS shipping: Smugmug: $2.95 (up to 50 5x7) verses MPIX: $2.50 (up to 50 4x6)
Yup we love those guys :thumb
We wish we could do the same but we can't at the present time :(

[Baldy]

Hey Cindy,

We do love Mpix's model. Our proposed rate change would shift us in their direction, meaning somewhat higher shipping for small orders and lower for medium and large. We'd love to offer the flat rates they do.

I toured their lab and some of the ways they achieve this would require some sacrifice for our customers. They only offer 1 print finish (matte, which looks like lustre to me -- I like it) at consumerish rates. You can get metallic (super high gloss) and true black and white, but at higher rates & it has to be a separate order. You can't mix finishes in one order. And their returnable 4x6s with color correction are 29 cents.

I'd have to do the math, but if we can do 29-cent prints, my guess is we can offer the flat shipping rates they do.

It would be lovely to snap our fingers and offer Mpix as an alternative without creating confusion but thinking that through has turned into quite a puzzle.

[Cindy]

Hey Cindy,
some sacrifice for our customers.
They only offer 1 print finish (matte, which looks like lustre to me
You can get metallic (super high gloss) and true black and white, but at higher rates & it has to be a separate order. You can't mix finishes in one order. And their returnable 4x6s with color correction are 29 cents.

I'd have to do the math, but if we can do 29-cent prints, my guess is we can offer the flat shipping rates they do.

It would be lovely to snap our fingers and offer Mpix as an alternative without creating confusion but thinking that through has turned into quite a puzzle.

I understand how adding Mpix &/or just setting up similar S/H costs would be very confusing... but one can dream & hope :D

:huh Raising the 4x6 print price to .29 in order to offset s/h wouldn't help pros at all :huh
True color is what I use and prefer. MPIX offers .19 cent prints for 4x6, 4x5 & 3.5x5 on all non-color corrected prints (true). Other pricing is the same for true color and/or color corrected.

Print price comparison:

SIZE ---------------------------- MPIX -------------------------- SMUGMUG
Wallets (4) ---------------------- .70 sheet or die cut ------------ 1.25 sheet only
3.5X5, 4X5, 4X6 --------------- .19 true color/.29 corrected ----- .21
5x7 ----------------------------- .99 --------------------------- 1.25
8x10 ---------------------------- 1.99 ---------------------------- 3.49
10x10 -------------------------- 3.99 --------------------------- 4.75 (EDIT had price backwards & fixed)
10x20 ------------------------- 8.99 --------------------------- 12.95 (EDIT had price backwards & fixed)
11x14--------------------------- 6.99 ---------------------------- 6.25
16x20 ------------------------- 15.99 --------------------------- 21.49 (EDIT had price backwards & fixed)
20x30 ------------------------- 24.99 --------------------------- 26.49

Buttons 3" --------------------- 1.56 ---------------------------- 4.95
Buttons 4" ------------------------------------------------------- 5.95

Yes, their E-surface (matte finish) prints are extremly similar to Smugmugs Luster. I love either and consider both the best imho.
Their Metalic is super sweet for the right print. I can't commit on the true black and white as I print my conversions on the E-surface and love it.
I don't mix finishes in orders very often however I have found it a major pain on the rare occasions I've needed to. At those times I have to place 2 orders (double the s/h).

[Nimai]

So, you mentioned that some will complain - did you still want to hear it? ;)

I shoot school events, and if you look at my order history, you'll see that a lot of my purchases are less that 10 4x6 prints. My customers are parents ordering prints of their kids.

Now it was mentioned that hopefully a buck or so increase won't be a deal breaker, and that's probably true. But when I meet the parents at these events, I'll just have to be more appologetic than I already am about shipping costs for a 4x6 print... :twitch

I'm sure y'all are running lots of statistical experiments on the sales data you've got, so I know you'll make a choice that's an overall improvement.

Thanks.

[Baldy]

So, you mentioned that some will complain - did you still want to hear it? ;)

I shoot school events, and if you look at my order history, you'll see that a lot of my purchases are less that 10 4x6 prints. My customers are parents ordering prints of their kids.

Now it was mentioned that hopefully a buck or so increase won't be a deal breaker, and that's probably true. But when I meet the parents at these events, I'll just have to be more appologetic than I already am about shipping costs for a 4x6 print... :twitch

I'm sure y'all are running lots of statistical experiments on the sales data you've got, so I know you'll make a choice that's an overall improvement.

Thanks.Hi Nimai,

Yes, we're definitely all ears. I went through your order history (nice work, btw) and it looks like your average is somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 prints at $5/each, although some orders were bigger.

I agree that the extra $1.20 for those orders is unlikey to be a deal killer, but I'm also sympathetic to the fact that some will notice it and not be to happy... We're talking about it.

Thanks,
Chris

[wetbarn]

I am one whose sales will be impacted (hurt) by the small order shipping price increase. I suspect that the median number of prints in my customer's orders is less than five.

Small order shipping costs were one of the reasons I originally partnered with SmugMug. If SmugMug is changing shipping prices as a matter of good business, that's fine. However, it will result in SmugMug being less competitive at account renewal time.

So put me in the "Some will complain" category. Subsequently, I may have to move SmugMug to my "Too good to be true" category. :pissed

[Stormdancing]

Is there a timeline on when this will be implemented? I have a VERY large order in the wings.

[dbaker1221]

sigh...I've had some big orders , but I'm not very happy that the parents that only order a few are gonna pay more shipping. I may look into other options for them.

[cabbey]

Thanks for the feedback! Can you give me a "for instance" of an order you're worried about fairness for? I'd be glad to give you a $ amount for what you'd pay for that order currently, as well as a $ amount of what you'll pay with the new shipping calculator.

Anne, I'll have to agree with dmc 100% on that. A good example I think is an order I did not too long ago, it was 2x 20x30 lustre prints, for a total of about $52. I don't recall the exact S/H on that under the old system, but I do recall that it was about $2 more than the pure shipping when I used the same tube to send some posters along to my parents. Now say I ordered 4 of those prints instead of 2. I very highly doubt it would have increased the postage much at all, but if I'm reading the new rates correctly, it would now increase the cost of that order from $2.95 + 3 x $2.00 = $8.95 to $2.95 + 6 x $2.00 = $14.95. An extra $6 for two additional prints making a total of 4? What would the old shipping have been for those two examples? (since the new shipping costs are already live I can't go generate them.)

[ivar]

Anne, I'll have to agree with dmc 100% on that. A good example I think is an order I did not too long ago, it was 2x 20x30 lustre prints, for a total of about $52. I don't recall the exact S/H on that under the old system, but I do recall that it was about $2 more than the pure shipping when I used the same tube to send some posters along to my parents. Now say I ordered 4 of those prints instead of 2. I very highly doubt it would have increased the postage much at all, but if I'm reading the new rates correctly, it would now increase the cost of that order from $2.95 + 3 x $2.00 = $8.95 to $2.95 + 6 x $2.00 = $14.95. An extra $6 for two additional prints making a total of 4? What would the old shipping have been for those two examples? (since the new shipping costs are already live I can't go generate them.)I don't think the shipping charges will increase that much.
Did you see this? http://www.smugmug.com/prints/shipping.mg

"Shipping prices are calculated based on the wholesale cost of prints. Many pro photographers set higher, custom print prices. These will not increase your shipping costs."

[cabbey]

I don't think the shipping charges will increase that much.
Did you see this? http://www.smugmug.com/prints/shipping.mg

"Shipping prices are calculated based on the wholesale cost of prints. Many pro photographers set higher, custom print prices. These will not increase your shipping costs."

Yes, I saw that. I'm talking about the un-marked up base cost of the prints. $26 for a 20x30 lustre. Which makes just a single print $2.95 + 2x $2.00 = 6.95, minimum.

[Sheaf]

Yes, I saw that. I'm talking about the un-marked up base cost of the prints. $26 for a 20x30 lustre. Which makes just a single print $2.95 + 2x $2.00 = 6.95, minimum.

Actually it would be $4.95 + $2.00 for the second tier of shipping (Express, since Economy is not available for that print size). The first $20 of product is essentially included in the base cost of $4.95. Under the old shipping costs, that same print would have $5.95 for Express. So yes, that is an example where our new price is a bit higher.

One of the things we wanted to emphasize with the new system was a reduction in the shipping price for large orders and orders with large prints. Obviously, we failed a bit in this case, mostly because that particular print has a base cost over $20.00.

We are watching the system closely and hope to change it some more to fix things like that. Stay tuned!

[cabbey]

Actually it would be $4.95 + $2.00 for the second tier of shipping (Express, since Economy is not available for that print size).

Hmm... not sure what your numbers are for... my numbers were quoted directly from the current cart implementation.

http://cabbey.smugmug.com/photos/203506358-M.jpg

http://cabbey.smugmug.com/photos/203506363-M.jpg

http://cabbey.smugmug.com/photos/203507037-M.jpg

http://cabbey.smugmug.com/photos/203507043-M.jpg

As you can see, those are un-marked up prices. (I don't have a pro account, not even power. So can't change them if I wanted to.)

It just seems to me like folks that order expensive options (lustre finish or large sizes) are going to get a bit of an unfair increase in shipping costs this way.

I looked up my old receipt, it came to 59.93 for those two prints previously. $6.95 of that was shipping. (Turns out this was farther back then I thought, 12/28/06 according to the invoice.)

The first $20 of product is essentially included in the base cost of $4.95.

Or as the help pages words it (I think clearer) the base cost is $2.95, and each $20 (or part thereof) is $2.00.

[renstar]

I have to agree with cabbey here. It does not make sense that adding a single print to an order (especially when that print will go in the same tube as the other two prints) adds $2 to the shipping cost. This is the pitfall of price based shipping vs weight or quantity based shipping. It seems like a more complicated algorithm is needed. How the shipping is calculated does not need to be clear to the customer, it just needs to be fair.

Perhaps a better solution is to assign each product a "print unit" (or percentage thereof). Then have a base print cost and 2 dollars per X (say, 10) print units. For example, 4x6 is 0.02ish units, really large format prints are 1 or 2 or 4 units, mounted canvas are 5, 10, or 20 or something like that. Then, you can even charge a percentage of that $2 (or round up if needed, or round down if you are slightly over the threshold and up otherwise, etc etc etc)

My 2 cents canadian (2 dollars american)

-Russ

[Sheaf]

Hmm... not sure what your numbers are for... my numbers were quoted directly from the current cart implementation.
My numbers are exactly how it is calculated with the current implementation. You said a single 20x30 print. It cannot ship Economy because of the print size. So the base price of Express is $4.95 and since a single print bumps the base cost over $20, an additional $2.00 is added to bring the total up to $6.95.


As you can see, those are un-marked up prices. (I don't have a pro account, not even power. So can't change them if I wanted to.)
We do it by the base price, not the marked-up price. It would be rather silly to charge a different amount to ship the same print just because the Pro priced it differently.


It just seems to me like folks that order expensive options (lustre finish or large sizes) are going to get a bit of an unfair increase in shipping costs this way.
In general the larger prints cost more to ship, handle, and of course do reprints on.


I looked up my old receipt, it came to 59.93 for those two prints previously. $6.95 of that was shipping. (Turns out this was farther back then I thought, 12/28/06 according to the invoice.)
Did that ship economy or express? Do you have an order number? As I said in my previous post, there are specific instances in which the shipping will be higher. That's not our intention for large prints and large orders, so we are looking into improving it and lowering the cost at some point.


Or as the help pages words it (I think clearer) the base cost is $2.95, and each $20 (or part thereof) is $2.00.
Are we looking at the same page? http://www.smugmug.com/prints/shipping.mg

A print that size cannot ship economy. Express is the cheapest option. The first $20.00 of product is not charged the $2.00.

[Sheaf]

How the shipping is calculated does not need to be clear to the customer, it just needs to be fair.

I think it does need to be clear to the customer (and fair of course). I know I personally hate shopping at a site, not being able to calculate or even estimate shipping until the last step of my purchase, and then find out that it is way overpriced. Either I wasted my time filling my cart and going through the whole process or I pay too much for shipping.

Our goal here was not to make profit off shipping like Shutterfly (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119103160514143521.html). We wanted to simplify it, display it in real-time as the cart was updated, encourage large orders, and move more high-value orders to a better shipping method.

As it stands now, the vast majority of large orders and orders with large prints now ship for less money. To be clear, SmugMug loses money on shipping those orders since we are still charged the same amount by our print vendor.

[renstar]

I think it does need to be clear to the customer (and fair of course).
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I don't particularly care how prices are calculated, as long as it doesnt cost me $4 extra for two more prints that are going in the same tube and don't add that much weight.

I know I personally hate shopping at a site, not being able to calculate or even estimate shipping until the last step of my purchase, and then find out that it is way overpriced.
Slightly dynamic pricing and calculating shipping on the fly are not mutually exclusive.

"Ordering these prints will add $x.yz to your shipping cost." or "It costs X to ship these. For that same shipping cost, you can add Y numbers more prints of such and such size and not increase your shipping cost!"

-r

[Sheaf]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I don't particularly care how prices are calculated, as long as it doesnt cost me $4 extra for two more prints that are going in the same tube and don't add that much weight.

Again, this doesn't come down to simply how many tubes or how much weight. Shipping a tube with 4 prints costs us considerably more on average than shipping a tube with a single print. Aside from the slightly increased weight and the extra handling, if the tube is lost in the mail (it happens a lot more than you might think) the cost of reprinting all four prints is much larger.


Slightly dynamic pricing and calculating shipping on the fly are not mutually exclusive.

"Ordering these prints will add $x.yz to your shipping cost." or "It costs X to ship these. For that same shipping cost, you can add Y numbers more prints of such and such size and not increase your shipping cost!"

-r

Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. With Amazon and similar businesses, it makes sense to do that. I'm not so convinced with prints. Even worse, it's very difficult and/or annoying to put that text in the proper location. Our cart interface is already crowded with options and text. Every centimeter is valuable space. That's not the case with a book or a DVD.

I know sometimes the new calculator seems unfair, but it really is better overall for large prints and large orders. For example, a single 20x20 lustre print ships for $6.95 under the new system and $5.95 in the old system. Ouch.

But since the 20x20 matte and 20x20 gloss are just below $20.00 per product, a single one of either of those ships for $4.95 in the new system. SmugMug loses $1.00 on shipping on those orders, since our print vendor is still charging us $5.95.

The new system doesn't cover all bases and there are a couple products/quantities that it doesn't work perfectly for, but overall I really think it is a drastic improvement for you guys.

[renstar]

Again, this doesn't come down to simply how many tubes or how much weight. Shipping a tube with 4 prints costs us considerably more on average than shipping a tube with a single print. Aside from the slightly increased weight and the extra handling, if the tube is lost in the mail (it happens a lot more than you might think) the cost of reprinting all four prints is much larger.
OK, fair enough, that is a good point that I hadn't considered (and that's why i'm a grad student and not running a business :).



I know sometimes the new calculator seems unfair, but it really is better overall for large prints and large orders. For example, a single 20x20 lustre print ships for $6.95 under the new system and $5.95 in the old system. Ouch.

But since the 20x20 matte and 20x20 gloss are just below $20.00 per product, a single one of either of those ships for $4.95 in the new system. SmugMug loses $1.00 on shipping on those orders, since our print vendor is still charging us $5.95.

The new system doesn't cover all bases and there are a couple products/quantities that it doesn't work perfectly for, but overall I really think it is a drastic improvement for you guys.
I think there is some seriously flawed thinking going on here and I don't see it as a benefit to us. SmugMug pushes the lustre prints whenever someone asks, and I think this is a good idea because Lustre looks so much better. (FWIW, I rarely order anything but Luster.) However, I am already paying a premium to get lustre paper. Why should I have to pay an extra premium to have it shipped? I don't see why you can't just charge the $5.95 for all those prints. I don't want to be subsidizing other people. I'll gladly pay the actual shipping cost for my prints.

It is already cheaper for me to just order directly from EZprints (and I can get panoramic prints as well) but I don't, mainly because of the convenience factor. However, now in addition to SmugMug's markup (which I don't have a problem with) it now costs $1 more per large print than it would direct from EZprints, as EZprints is $1 extra per tubed print, after the first. SmugMug is essentially $2 extra for these larger images. This adds up.

The big problem seems to be that the new model does not scale well at all. Larger prints (especially those with Lustre paper) and other items that have a larger SmugMug markup are already far more expensive. Why are they the ones being used to subsidize shipping for everyone else? Why not just do the shipping based on the size of the print? Then everyone pays for what they use. I shouldn't be paying extra so that Joe Bob can pay less. It seems silly that your markup (which I'm sure is carefully set) is the entire reason shipping costs more for one print (Lustre) than for another of the same size (Matte).

Lastly, just to be clear, I am not complaining about the markup or price of prints from smugmug. I understand that such things are required to keep an awesome photosharing/selling site running with awesome customer service. I think you guys run a good business and really appreciate your willingness even to discuss these things on a public forum.

-r

[apiercy]

I think the new shipping options are much easier to calculate and definitely more beneficial to customers who have large orders.

My only problem with it is if a customer orders an 8x10 print from us for $9 they are having to pay more than half that cost for shipping –*it seems a little steep.

We've lost lots of orders in the past week because of the change. Most of our orders come through our office and they don't want to pay such a large shipping price for one 8x10. :dunno

[Sheaf]

I think the new shipping options are much easier to calculate and definitely more beneficial to customers who have large orders.

My only problem with it is if a customer orders an 8x10 print from us for $9 they are having to pay more than half that cost for shipping –*it seems a little steep.

We've lost lots of orders in the past week because of the change. Most of our orders come through our office and they don't want to pay such a large shipping price for one 8x10. :dunno

Yeah, that was a tough decision, but Economy shipping was just so terrible, especially for prints that size. You would not believe how many prints get lost in the mail with USPS "1st class". It was a headache for customers and for us, so we removed the option of shipping 8x10's through Economy and kept the Express option at the same price (which, incidentally, is $1.04 less than places like Shutterfly and Snapfish).

Sorry about the loss of business! On the bright side, the ones who do make the purchase are more likely to actually get their prints and get them in good condition.

[cabbey]

My numbers are exactly how it is calculated with the current implementation. You said a single 20x30 print.

Ah, now I see where our math diverges....

2x 20x30

As in "two, twenty by thirty prints". same as what the first pair of screen shots show.

It cannot ship Economy because of the print size. So the base price of Express is $4.95 and since a single print bumps the base cost over $20, an additional $2.00 is added to bring the total up to $6.95.

yup, we're doing the same math, I'm just doing it a different way. If pictures are worth 1000 words, then a formula has to be worth, what, 500?

shipping cost = base[express] + $2 * ceiling ( sum of prints base values / $20 )

where:

base[express] = 2.95 = published number minus $2 for the first $20 of merch.

I've never cared for those places that word it as "plus $x for each additional $y." mainly because few, if any define what that "additional" is relative to. Neither for that matter did Baldy in the opening post here. Nor really does the help page... "Added price for each $20 of product" comes a lot closer though leaving out the magic "additional" wording. But the question becomes, if it's $20.01, is that one or two added amounts? My experiment with the shipping calculations in the cart says 1... they also say my formula above is correct.

We do it by the base price, not the marked-up price. It would be rather silly to charge a different amount to ship the same print just because the Pro priced it differently.

yup, very silly. :)

In general the larger prints cost more to ship, handle, and of course do reprints on.

:huh shipping and handling charges are covering reprint costs?? :scratch

Did that ship economy or express? Do you have an order number?

There's no way I'd ship anything economy again, or after a few scans of dgrin, for all I care you can remove that option entirely. :) it was express, 231236.

As I said in my previous post, there are specific instances in which the shipping will be higher. That's not our intention for large prints and large orders, so we are looking into improving it and lowering the cost at some point.

Large orders make sense to me, they weigh a lot more by cost. Let's assume an average of $0.20 for a 4x6 prints. 132.5 of them would cost the same as my 20x30 lustres. But they would contain 3180 square inches of paper, as opposed to the 600 sq in of paper in the 20x30. If you assume the same weight/sq in for the paper (seems reasonable to me) then we're talking 5.3x heavier. So certainly the large order of 132.5 4x6s should pay a premium for shipping.

:rofl perhaps that's the metric you need... $2 additional for each X sq in of aggregate print surface. :D


Are we looking at the same page? http://www.smugmug.com/prints/shipping.mg

heh, yeah, but clearly I was reading it with 20 odd hours of being awake after about 4 hours of sleep when I wrote that it said it differently, more like I did above.

It is already cheaper for me to just order directly from EZprints (and I can get panoramic prints as well) but I don't, mainly because of the convenience factor. However, now in addition to SmugMug's markup (which I don't have a problem with) it now costs $1 more per large print than it would direct from EZprints, as EZprints is $1 extra per tubed print, after the first. SmugMug is essentially $2 extra for these larger images. This adds up.

The big problem seems to be that the new model does not scale well at all. Larger prints (especially those with Lustre paper) and other items that have a larger SmugMug markup are already far more expensive.

Some of the images are more than that... I think normal prints today that get tubed top out at $36. Just a couple of those is going to put you up pretty quickly... on average $1.80 each. This is I think where we are going to be hit the worst... the majority of the print orders we've done through smugmug are for a small number of large prints... like 3-7 prints of 20x20 and up.

Lastly, just to be clear, I am not complaining about the markup or price of prints from smugmug. I understand that such things are required to keep an awesome photosharing/selling site running with awesome customer service. I think you guys run a good business and really appreciate your willingness even to discuss these things on a public forum.

:nod amen

[2whlrcr]

I'm a little fish. All of my customers are also little fish. The vast majority of my orders are for 8x10's or smaller. Very few of my orders are for more than two or three prints.

I also don't charge very much, which makes this scenario even worse. My customer orders one 8x10 for $10 and now has to pay $5 for shipping? There cost just went up 50% to get the photo mailed to them.

Not good.

[SloYerRoll]

Very interesting discussion here. I won't hash out the numbers here. That's been done enough.

There are allot of valid points here. Andy brings up a great selling point when he states:
One thing we hope to be able to do is promote that they can order "up to" 50 prints and get the same fee - so we think this might have a positive effect, more ordering......I'm looking forward to promoting this! More sales for me is good for SM and me!

I really don't understand how your pricing model works though when you up-charge based on price. Can you please elaborate further on how you came up w/ this? My entire career was in printing/shipping at the PM level and I still don't understand how you can have the client in mind when you establish a pricing model such as this. Mabey your business model is different. Either way I'm interested in hearing your views.

Are you willing to release some of the reporting that your queries come up w/? i.e. % of ppl that order (x) 4x6 prints; % of ppl that order (x) of 11x17.. etc. IMO this will show where the rubber meets the road so to speak.

No matter what you come up w/ though. PPL will complain. It's inevitable. PPL don't like change, but change is natural progression of growing business.

I'm happy w/ SM as a whole though and wouldn't trade you guys for anyone on the market today!

-Jon

[GREAPER]

I just found this thread because I did a search for shipping hopping to find out why standard shipping was not an option for my last two orders. I am often not in a big hurry and would usually rather save money than get my print fast.

I ordered 1 8 x 10 because my wife wanted it. My local pro lab charges 2.50 for an 8 x 10, I always buy from smugmug, even though their print costs 1 dollar more plus shipping. They are a great company, I like to support them, and I don't have to leave home to deal with my purchase. 6.00 is a lot to pay for that service. I am not complaining, but I am saying that I would probably have to choose to make that purchase locally instead of paying that much again.

[GREAPER]

As I went through the thread again I noticed some discussion of switching from the USPS to another shipper (fed ex, UPS, whatever).

That would eliminate 95 percent of print orders from me. The other shippers here will not leave a package if no one is home. At my house, no one is ever home during business hours. They leave me a note that they will try again the next day, which of course no one will be home again. After this they will leave a note telling me I have 48 hours to pick it up, or they will return it to the sender, so I have to take time off of work and go pick it up.

I have been through this 3 times with UPS.

Once with Fed ex

I choose vendor's that ship USPS.

Just my 2 cents.