<<post suggestions for ways to improve the challenges here>>

[digital faerie]

ok, ok, let's try to avoid the crap-talking, mud-slinging, flaming, and anything else negative here.

I'd like to start a dialogue, one that's respectful and one that may actually help everyone here better the challenge process.

Issues have come up concerning the judging process. Good points have been made on all sides but we have failed to do one thing: figure out how to make it better.

So concerning the judging process, what about taking the past 5 challenge winners as judges (past 5 who can commit), to select the top 10.

Ginger made a good point on number of finalists. What if we had a number of finalists based on the total # of entries? Say, no less than 10 finalists, but if between go over 35 entries, bump it up to 15? I'd say more than 15 will just make it harder to vote.

What if we all voted on finalists? Charlie Brown had an interesting idea about everyone votes for 3 entries, and the top finalists are gleaned from that?

Come on everyone, I'm sure we can all be adults here and like I said earlier, there's always room for improvement.

Andy, you're doing a fine job and you couldn't pay me enough money to stand in the shoes you're in right now concerning all this. :D

[Charlie Brown]

again, i dont enter the challenges so im nt the best judge here, but if we all think things can be improved then we should do so.

why not let everyone vote for the finalists and then let us for durring the finals?

or leave the list of finalists up to all the mods, not just one, then let us vote for the finals?

or we all for finalists, and let the mods decide on the Finals but in an open forum where we can all have input?

there are so many ways to aleviate the perceived problems inherant in the system we have now without steppin on people toes and creating a more rounded process for judging.



cb

[blackwaterstudio]

I think for one just because someone has a opinion on a mod/admin etc they shouldn't banned as a member was, and thread's shouldn't be locked because a mod doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

Now having said that, I think everyone that enters the challenge should be voted on, then narrow it down to the top 3 from the votes, that gives the members the power to decide who gets the win or not. I think if one person or two makes the choice on who gets into the top 10 then it can be bad because they may not like your photo for some reason, whatever it be.

I have no problem with Andy, but I think it should be fair that if someone enters the challenge they should atleast be able to be voted on by other members. Heck I've entered 3 so far, only made it once to the top 10, its not like I"m gonna run out and blow something up because I didn't make it to the top 10, but I think for it to be fair you should have all entry's voted on and then pick from the top 3.

[digital faerie]

I think for one just because someone has a opinion on a mod/admin etc they shouldn't banned as a member was, and thread's shouldn't be locked because a mod doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

Now having said that, I think everyone that enters the challenge should be voted on, then narrow it down to the top 3 from the votes, that gives the members the power to decide who gets the win or not. I think if one person or two makes the choice on who gets into the top 10 then it can be bad because they may not like your photo for some reason, whatever it be.

I have no problem with Andy, but I think it should be fair that if someone enters the challenge they should atleast be able to be voted on by other members. Heck I've entered 3 so far, only made it once to the top 10, its not like I"m gonna run out and blow something up because I didn't make it to the top 10, but I think for it to be fair you should have all entry's voted on and then pick from the top 3.
has this been tried before? :dunno

[Andy]

comment

it's hard enough to get just one co-judge to do his/her thing ontime, getting five, well you stand a better chance at creating world peace than that happening :lol3

re: the numbers... 10/50 (the number of entries last challenge) is 20%, that's a lot. and, you have to consider the voting - getting a statistical sample that's meaningful is very hard when you have many many choices. think about that, too...

fwiw.

[Charlie Brown]

like ive stated before, i dont know anything about the challenges or the judging process, but from an outsiders view the more people involved the less room there is for somoene favoiring one style over another, whether it happens or not doesnt really matter. people are always going to think that there are favourites, thats just the way things work in the real world. so the more people that are able to have an imput into the culling process the better, not just because it become a more unified process, but also because any alleged slights or favoured style will have to be agreed upon by everyone making it much more difficult for it to be possible. that way there is no room for complaint, at all.


cb

[digital faerie]

like ive stated before, i dont know anything about the challenges or the judging process, but from an outsiders view the more people involved the less room there is for somoene favoiring one style over another, whether it happens or not doesnt really matter. people are always going to think that there are favourites, thats just the way things work in the real world. so the more people that are able to have an imput into the culling process the better, not just because it become a more unified process, but also because any alleged slights or favoured style will have to be agreed upon by everyone making it much more difficult for it to be possible. that way there is no room for complaint, at all.


cb
unfortunately, someone will probably always complain but I'm going to have to strongly agree with you on this point of bringing more opinions into the culling process.

[Charlie Brown]

unfortunately, someone will probably always complain but I'm going to have to strongly agree with you on this point of bringing more opinions into the culling process.

there will always be comlaints, but there wont be any room for personal attacks or personal preferences. thats the beauty behind having more than one judge, even if it takes a few days longer to decide and announce who the winner is. it sthe people that make the site so great, not just me or you or fish or andy or damon its all of collectively that make dgrin, so why not collectively vote on the challenges.



cb

[jwear]

HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO GET 3 PEOPLE TO AGREE ON WHERE TO GO TO DINNER ? just take pics JEFF :scratch

[Charlie Brown]

HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO GET 3 PEOPLE TO AGREE ON WHERE TO GO TO DINNER ? just take pics JEFF :scratch

yes, i have. ok so why dont we let the current president choose the next one? if you cant see any room for improvement, i cant help you. i dont care who wins or looses, who cheats or chooses, i dont enter the challenges, but i can see room for improvement. its nothing agains andy, or damon, or anyone else for that matter.

[Angelo]

I have stayed out of this fray and am SOOOOO not gonna "get into it" but I will share just one thought that has occured to me in the short time I've been a member.

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

Please don't misconstrue this to mean I want the moderator to "answer" for their decisions. Knowing a little (just a little) about why certain photos were selected might help us hone our skills at critiquing or seeing that extra little something that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Yes Andy, I realize this would translate to yet MORE work, but if you can't take the heat, stay out... oops; Sorry! :heh

[Charlie Brown]

I have stayed out of this fray and am SOOOOO not gonna "get into it" but I will share just one thought that has occured to me in the short time I've been a member.

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

Please don't misconstrue this to mean I want the moderator to "answer" for their decisions. Knowing a little (just a little) about why certain photos were selected might help us hone our skills at critiquing or seeing that extra little something that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Yes Andy, I realize this would translate to yet MORE work, but if you can't take the heat, stay out... oops; Sorry! :heh

very good point.


cb

[Shay Stephens]

The only thing this accomplishes is anonomizing who it is that is saying no. The end result is still the same (i.e. photos not being picked) but at least then you can't pin a name on who the jerk was that said no to your photo :wink

One person picking the top ten results in the same outcome if a million people do it.
unfortunately, someone will probably always complain but I'm going to have to strongly agree with you on this point of bringing more opinions into the culling process.

[Shakey]

Other sites have other ways of judging. I would encourage everyone to participate in these challenge site's.

You will find that no Judging process is perfect.

For example; DPChallenge an excellent site with a large membership open and private which photos are posted anonomously. And voted by anyone who signs up.
Issues: Often voting is skewed by a myopic look at challenge parameters to many people only wish to see inside the box.
Rants a plenty about scores recieved.

Another method I was involved in was the winner of the contest was the full administrator of the next contest.
Photos were posted anon and then anyone voted on favorite 5.

Issues: If the winner is not passionate about being an administrator his /her lack of enthusiasm can often sink the challenges and malaise and apathy set in for future challenges.

Fred Miranda. Large professional site,Lots of knowledge lots of rules.
Issues: I usuallly get my As.. er butt kicked quite regularly by some fine Photographers that I compete against.

As for here... I trust Andy's impartiality implicitly.By his posts, his helpfulness and professional polite demeanor I have gained immeasurable trust in his "eye" and decision making.
He has a intangeable...Passion

Leaving my plate of ribs beside him unguarded however is another matter.:huh


Try the grass elsewhere, and you will find Andy keeps a trim vibrant and growing lawn .

As for Fish locking the thread ... He did so 100% correctly IMO emotions were to hot. And when sand gets thrown in each others eyes it's time to close the sandbox take the toys home and comeback another day .:D


YMMV
Take care all
Tim

[Andy]

I have stayed out of this fray and am SOOOOO not gonna "get into it" but I will share just one thought that has occured to me in the short time I've been a member.

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

Please don't misconstrue this to mean I want the moderator to "answer" for their decisions. Knowing a little (just a little) about why certain photos were selected might help us hone our skills at critiquing or seeing that extra little something that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Yes Andy, I realize this would translate to yet MORE work, but if you can't take the heat, stay out... oops; Sorry! :heh

angelo,

for a long time, i (and a guest judge/pro) made comments on each and every image - all entries, finalists, and winner. now that was when we had about 20-22 entries per challenge. that took a long long time for me each challenge! finally, i had to give that up - and you know what happened? we moved to individual threads for each entrant - and loads of comments/critiques and learning started happening!

now, i try to step in to the comments threads and give what i can.

[Shay Stephens]

I have helped choose the top ten a few times now. And this is how I do it.

I make an initial look through to see what the general feel is and how the group is interpreting the theme. This allows me to quickly decide if I am dealing with high quality entries or so-so entries.

If I am dealing with so so entries, I relax my decision making process. If there are high quality entries, I get much harder on them. When I am done with the first pass I may or may not have a list of ten entries.

If the list of first round picks is over ten, I make my criteria harder. For example, the composition, the lighting, the technical merits. If two image have the same artistic feel to me, then I get picky about the finer points. How well does the subject or theme stand out. Who did a better job of telling the story. Which photo is just plain more compelling if all else is equal.

If the list is less than ten, I then relax my criteria, allowing for poorer compositions, less desirable white balance, etc until I have a list of at least ten images that I feel are the best the group has to offer.

Sometimes this process goes by quickly because the pool of photos is just plain not that great. But sometimes it takes a while because the photos are great, and it is painful to have to choose one over the other. But chose one must, for the show must go on :D

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

[Angelo]

angelo,

for a long time, i (and a guest judge/pro) made comments on each and every image - all entries, finalists, and winner. now that was when we had about 20-22 entries per challenge. that took a long long time for me each challenge! finally, i had to give that up - and you know what happened? we moved to individual threads for each entrant - and loads of comments/critiques and learning started happening!

now, i try to step in to the comments threads and give what i can.well true, I can see that.

What is it they say about those ignorant of history? they're destined to repeat it!? Thanks for responding.

[digital faerie]

I have helped choose the top ten a few times now. And this is how I do it.

I make an initial look through to see what the general feel is and how the group is interpreting the theme. This allows me to quickly decide if I am dealing with high quality entries or so-so entries.

If I am dealing with so so entries, I relax my decision making process. If there are high quality entries, I get much harder on them. When I am done with the first pass I may or may not have a list of ten entries.

If the list of first round picks is over ten, I make my criteria harder. For example, the composition, the lighting, the technical merits. If two image have the same artistic feel to me, then I get picky about the finer points. How well does the subject or theme stand out. Who did a better job of telling the story. Which photo is just plain more compelling if all else is equal.

If the list is less than ten, I then relax my criteria, allowing for poorer compositions, less desirable white balance, etc until I have a list of at least ten images that I feel are the best the group has to offer.

Sometimes this process goes by quickly because the pool of photos is just plain not that great. But sometimes it takes a while because the photos are great, and it is painful to have to choose one over the other. But chose one must, for the show must go on :D
I think that's nice actually. Please, no one take this the wrong way, but perhaps it would be nicer if there were 3 or 4 people to carry out this process? I know, I know...."in a perfect world" :rofl

but really, that's a very good approach, actually maybe it's really the only approach? :wink

[Michael Allen]

My .02, The only way I could see improving on the current set up is open voting on every photo that meets the challenge rules. As long as there is a limit on vote entries, that isn't possible. Till then keep up the good work Andy and Co-judge. Appreciate the time and effort you put in.

[DoctorIt]

My .02, The only way I could see improving on the current set up is open voting on every photo that meets the challenge rules. As long as there is a limit on vote entries, that isn't possible. Till then keep up the good work Andy and Co-judge. Appreciate the time and effort you put in.There's about 50 entries, and about 50 people usually voting (or at least no more than 100)? How on earth is that going to work? Just from a basic math point of view.

Perfect schmerfect. For those of you who haven't been here from the beginning, I can see your frustrations, but this is a growing forum, I think all of this has been said before. Until it gets bigger, I have a hard time seeing how we can immediately "improve".

[4labs]

Will anyone accept bribes to vote for my photos ? Maybe dinner next time you are in NYC or a Broadway show?For you single guys you can borrow one of my pups, they are great babe magnets..I think it is way more important to get feedback whether postive or negative than to care about how the challenges are judged..I would much rather have someone tell me my photos suck and this is how you can improve it than to have my picture win a contest and not know what is so good about it..What can I say I am needy..:crazy

[spockling]

News Flash Folks!!! Andy's not Perfect. Sorry Andy:wink

Look, for 99.9% of us here, this is a HOBBY!. ReLAX!!!

Now go take some pics for us to gawk at:D

[digital faerie]

Will anyone accept bribes to vote for my photos ? Maybe dinner next time you are in NYC or a Broadway show?For you single guys you can borrow one of my pups, they are great babe magnets..I think it is way more important to get feedback whether postive or negative than to care about how the challenges are judged..I would much rather have someone tell me my photos suck and this is how you can improve it than to have my picture win a contest and not know what is so good about it..What can I say I am needy..:crazy
all forms of credit card are accepted and if you gimme your e-mail, I'll send you my paypal account info and we'll set something up. :wink

[digital faerie]

News Flash Folks!!! Andy's not Perfect. Sorry Andy:wink

Look, for 99.9% of us here, this is a HOBBY!. ReLAX!!!

Now go take some pics for us to gawk at:D
look, no one's saying andy's perfect or imperfect.....this is just an outlet to toss around ideas and maybe even reach an epiphany. oh well....

[Jenny]

....I think it is way more important to get feedback whether postive or negative than to care about how the challenges are judged..I would much rather have someone tell me my photos suck and this is how you can improve it than to have my picture win a contest and not know what is so good about it....
I completely agree!:thumb

[Michael Allen]

I'm not complaining about what we have, I was saying that's the only way I could see it any better. Not everyone is going to be happy no matter what is done. If anything.

[fish]

blah blah blah deleted

Sit down, shut up, and listen, Andrew. :rolleyes

Try not to get too defensive...this is a constructive thread and there are some good ideas coming out. Please consider it brainstorming...not blamestorming. Okay? Fine. I can't find yer damn cell#, so pm it to me, will ya?

[Seamus]

For example, the composition, the lighting, the technical merits.
I knew I was doing something wrong:D


(the other) Shay.

[Andy]

blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah

fixed.

hey i love this thread, are you kidding? the more ideas the better. btw everyone - just remember the physical and practical limitations as you come up with your ideas :deal

[digital faerie]

fixed.

hey i love this thread, are you kidding? the more ideas the better. btw everyone - just remember the physical and practical limitations as you come up with your ideas :deal
that's a very strong point Andy.....so what is it you as a judge find difficult in this process? besides of course, choosing from such wonderful photographs all the time, hehe. what are some things you don't like perhaps?

other co-judges, thoughts?

:D

[Andy]

that's a very strong point Andy.....so what is it you as a judge find difficult in this process? besides of course, choosing from such wonderful photographs all the time, hehe. what are some things you don't like perhaps?

other co-judges, thoughts?

:D

i need permission from :fish before i can answer :lol3

[digital faerie]

i need permission from :fish before i can answer :lol3
:cry and now he's offline! :cry

:wink

[John Mueller]

:cry and now he's offline! :cry

:wink
Me thinks :fishis here,just under the sonar :D

[Charlie Brown]

yeah the chumsucker is here somewhere.



cb

[wxwax]

that's a very strong point Andy.....so what is it you as a judge find difficult in this process?

Time.

As Andy's noted, just getting a single person to help judge the photos has been difficult. Getting a panel to show-up and do the work is not likely to happen.

Why? Time. Only Andy's been willing to spend the time, on a regular basis, to do it. He's had to scramble many times in the past to find a co-judge.

He speaks from experience when he says that any suggestions have to pass the common sense/practicality test. And it's a stern test.

[DJ-S1]

I'm waiting to hear a good idea that will work. I'd be all for it, but I haven't heard one yet. And I don't have any suggestions either!

I think given the 10 item limit on polls, which is a limitation of the software used not the stipulation of the judges, that the system we have now is above average.

There's another board I frequent that has a photoshop challenge. Sometimes it is a weekly thing, other times they extend it to 2 weeks because the owners/mods are too busy to set up the poll. This last contest is starting on its' 3rd week, I believe. :wxwax

And to make matters worse, thier software of choice allows unlimited items to be voted on, so everyone's images are voted on by everyone. The workload is much less than what Andy has signed up to, and they still can't keep a schedule.

Now, did "everyone votes on all the images" solve the "bias" question. No! They recently changed to a policy of posting the images in the voting thread without names attached. It was perceived by some that folks were voting for their friends only, or something like that. The gist is that people complained that it was unfair in some way.

So you see, I think we have it pretty good here. Many thanks to Andy and all the other past judges for their hard work. :thumb And let us not forget Baldy, who hosts this site for free. :clap

[wxwax]

So you see, I think we have it pretty good here. Many thanks to Andy and all the other past judges for their hard work. :thumb And let us not forget Baldy, who hosts this site for free. :clap
I share your sentiments. :thumb

[ajgauthier]

I'm new here, but I have been perusing past challenges and reading lots of posts. This is really a great forum and I am thoroughly enjoying the atmosphere. Everyone (so far as I see) acts respectful, lots of great constructive criticism and compliments.

Anyhoo! I'm not sure what the programming behind this monster allows, but what if only those who initially the entered the contest can vote on their "top 3", then the "10 finalists" are chosen from those rankings? Then everyone on dgrin can vote for the winner of the challenge?

as far as the expertise Andy has in critiquing photos, that of course doesn't fit into the above model - which is a bit sad since I think it's great to have someone with experience review and pick the photos (that isn't to say of course, that there aren't talented experienced photographers of equal or better calibur on here *smile*)

But, like I said, not sure if the scripting can make polls "private by user" so that only users who posted can vote. That would be a quick few minutes on an admin's part (or whoever volunteers) to go through the challenge thread and copy user names into a text file, which would be the list for those who can vote in the private poll. I'm work in database-driven website design/programming and can conceptually map out the process, anyone got the programming skills?

just an idea :-)
AJ


ok, ok, let's try to avoid the crap-talking, mud-slinging, flaming, and anything else negative here.

I'd like to start a dialogue, one that's respectful and one that may actually help everyone here better the challenge process.

Issues have come up concerning the judging process. Good points have been made on all sides but we have failed to do one thing: figure out how to make it better.

So concerning the judging process, what about taking the past 5 challenge winners as judges (past 5 who can commit), to select the top 10.

Ginger made a good point on number of finalists. What if we had a number of finalists based on the total # of entries? Say, no less than 10 finalists, but if between go over 35 entries, bump it up to 15? I'd say more than 15 will just make it harder to vote.

What if we all voted on finalists? Charlie Brown had an interesting idea about everyone votes for 3 entries, and the top finalists are gleaned from that?

Come on everyone, I'm sure we can all be adults here and like I said earlier, there's always room for improvement.

Andy, you're doing a fine job and you couldn't pay me enough money to stand in the shoes you're in right now concerning all this. :D

[digital faerie]

perhaps the "problem" is stemming from the fact that many different styles can be associated with any particular challenge. Ch. 32 - predominant color- was approached in many different ways. A challenge on abstracts would probably narrow down styles.

*sigh* I realize time is an issue. I'm still racking my brain trying to find a possible solution but it's hard....I've never been in Andy's shoes and if he says that he spends just as much time looking at the last submission for a challenge as he does the first then I certainly believe him. I can only imagine.

Maybe we can try having all dgrinners (not just submitters) vote on the top 3 for the finalists one day and see how it goes. I realize this didn't work out on another forum, but from what I've seen on this board, it just might work here. Heck, we could even do a test run.....judge the challenges like we have been (andy and co-judge) and also have a simultaneous vote by the general dgrin population and see how the two "top ten's" compare?

I realize the polling program is limited so we can either modify it, or we can vote by pm's?

food for thought? :dunno

[Mitchell]

Personally, I don't understand the griping about the challenge selections. If you don't like the way it is done, don't enter the challenges. Several people here making comments and suggestions have been around for only one or two challenges! Try not to make sweeping judgements about things needing to be changed if you don't have the historical perspective.

I commend Andy for his time and efforts on this board. When it comes to judging your art, you just have to accept that we all like different things. The software only allows a selection of 10 pics. Let Andy and the previous winner pick them.

mitch

[Andy]

perhaps the "problem" is stemming from the fact that many different styles can be associated with any particular challenge. Ch. 32 - predominant color- was approached in many different ways. A challenge on abstracts would probably narrow down styles.

*sigh* I realize time is an issue. I'm still racking my brain trying to find a possible solution but it's hard....I've never been in Andy's shoes and if he says that he spends just as much time looking at the last submission for a challenge as he does the first then I certainly believe him. I can only imagine.

Maybe we can try having all dgrinners (not just submitters) vote on the top 3 for the finalists one day and see how it goes. I realize this didn't work out on another forum, but from what I've seen on this board, it just might work here. Heck, we could even do a test run.....judge the challenges like we have been (andy and co-judge) and also have a simultaneous vote by the general dgrin population and see how the two "top ten's" compare?

I realize the polling program is limited so we can either modify it, or we can vote by pm's?

food for thought? :dunno

d.f. i can see your wheels turning, and that's cool. but again, i really have to point you back to what's practical and possible. voting by pm means that pms have to be opened, read, tallied, managed, and otherwise dealt with. so take the previous challenge - we had 100+ voters. that's an additional hour or more in just dealing with pm vote tallying.

[digital faerie]

d.f. i can see your wheels turning, and that's cool. but again, i really have to point you back to what's practical and possible. voting by pm means that pms have to be opened, read, tallied, managed, and otherwise dealt with. so take the previous challenge - we had 100+ voters. that's an additional hour or more in just dealing with pm vote tallying.so I take it there's no modifying the poll either for my other point.

*sigh*

and Mitchell, I think I've made myself quite clear on how I feel about the challenges. thanks, though. :D

[fish]

i need permission from :fish before i can answer :lol3

:fu

[gubbs]

I've had the pleasure of judging a couple of times, and I have to say its tough, & time consuming but educational.
I guess it took me around 3 hours each time but we were doing comments for each shot then. I took a slightly different approach to Shay in that I had catagories, ie compostion/technical/original/how much do I actually like it. Then award points for each catagory for each image. I generally found that I'd have 2-3 clear leaders and a lot of ties for the last 3-4 places. For these tied shots I'd go back again and award half/qtr points until I ended up with 10.

Its a really good exercise to do even if your not judging, try it & you'll see what I mean. It'll also give you an idea of what's involved.

I enter the challenges because I love taking pictures and want to improve.
If I happen to get picked that's fantastic, if I don't, then I'm dissapointed for 15 mins and then get on with the next one.
I'm up for changes that make life easier but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter about the selection process, I just want to take photographs, learn a bit and meet a few friends on the way!

[Eric&Susan]

I enter the challenges because I love taking pictures and want to improve.
If I happen to get picked that's fantastic, if I don't, then I'm dissapointed for 15 mins and then get on with the next one.
I'm up for changes that make life easier but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter about the selection process, I just want to take photographs, learn a bit and meet a few friends on the way!
Gubbs has hit the nail on the head, for me anyways. Thanks Gubbs.:clap


Eric

[landrum]

Personally, I don't understand the griping about the challenge selections. If you don't like the way it is done, don't enter the challenges. Several people here making comments and suggestions have been around for only one or two challenges! Try not to make sweeping judgements about things needing to be changed if you don't have the historical perspective.

I commend Andy for his time and efforts on this board. When it comes to judging your art, you just have to accept that we all like different things. The software only allows a selection of 10 pics. Let Andy and the previous winner pick them.

mitchI agree. There does seem to be a lot of newbies that haven't entered or only entered a time or two complaining here. I didn't get picked my first try either. Why? :scratch I dunno. Did I cry about it? :cry No. Those who have been here a while and complain about never getting picked for the top ten would stop once one of their entries did get selected...I've seen it happen! It's all a matter of prospective. Yes there is some bias to all judging...no matter what it is. I feel that Andy does a great job in trying to remain as unbiased as possible.



The limitations of the software prohibit the possibility of everyone voting for all entries. (we have been told that many times) I am a member on an art site that has a rating system and has periodic contests. The rating system for all posted work was shut off for a long time because people complained that they weren't getting the ratings that they "should". The ratings weren't issued by one person, or a panel of judges...they were voted on by EVERYONE that went to the site and saw their work. The contests that they run are kept anonymous until the voting is over. People still complain that the system isn't fair. Again, EVERYONE gets to vote on EVERY entry, and people don't like it!



My point is that nothing will satisfy everyone, and there are just some people that are happier when they are unhappy. Those, unfortunately, are the ones that make the most noise and cause the most headaches...and are the reason that we are all debating this topic. I don't mind hearing new ideas, but it seems like these are just the same old ideas all over again.
:deadhorse (this is the FUNNIEST smilie, btw!)

So, what are MY suggestions, you ask? I dont' have any because I am not unhappy with our current system. If things do change, I'm sure I'll be fine with that too. :dunno

[davev]

d.f. i can see your wheels turning, and that's cool. but again, i really have to point you back to what's practical and possible. voting by pm means that pms have to be opened, read, tallied, managed, and otherwise dealt with. so take the previous challenge - we had 100+ voters. that's an additional hour or more in just dealing with pm vote tallying.I kind of like the way the challenge is run as it is, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

If the software can only handle 10 pics, could multiple voting threads be put
up, whereas say 40 pics were entered, set up 4 voting polls, people could
vote once in each poll for a day, then the top few could go into a finale
vote. This could be tricky because of ties, but I'm sure something could be
worked out.

Just a point because I'm newer to the challenges here. I have been entering
the challenges at Dpreview for about a year and a half. I have never won,
and I have never thought that I have been cheated. In the few challenges
that I have been in here, most of the comments after are something like
"I knew that was the winner the 1st time I saw it." I believe that this
is normaly the case. One pic will just stand above the rest.

Anyhow, I would think this may save Andy some time, and every picture
gets the chance to be voted on.

dave.

[Andy]

..... (snip)

Anyhow, I would think this may save Andy some time, and every picture
gets the chance to be voted on.

dave.

actually, setting up voting for 40 or 50 or i hope 100! entries takes a lot of time, dave. it's not as easy as it sounds. for example, for each entry that's "attached" instead of hotlinked, i have to upload that to a smugmug gallery, and grab the link, and embed it myself into the voting threads. as it is, it takes a while to get it right in the current system ...

thanks for the suggestion though!

[Angelo]

"...you can't please all of the people all of the time!"


we're now 50 posts into this thread and the consistent message is that someone will always find fault with whatever method is employed to determine winners.

in my experience I have found that in situations like this people who tend to gripe have issues that have more to do with control than with winning.

for my money this site is just fine the way it is. if my photos don't get picked for the top 10 and don't win then I'd better get my a** in gear and work harder, or stop entering. simple really!

can we move on? we should be expending all of this energy on our art not our egos.

[davev]

actually, setting up voting for 40 or 50 or i hope 100! entries takes a lot of time, dave. it's not as easy as it sounds. for example, for each entry that's "attached" instead of hotlinked, i have to upload that to a smugmug gallery, and grab the link, and embed it myself into the voting threads. as it is, it takes a while to get it right in the current system ...

thanks for the suggestion though!
Here's a can of worms. Is there a way that we could upload our pics to a
smugmug gallery? You know where I'm going with this, it would be more like
the Dpreview challenge, and it would be easier for you to link the photos
to the polling thread. I know those challenges have been hijacked by some
doorknobs and added measures had to be taken. But maybe this would
be a way to vote for every pic, and help you out.

dave.

[Roger]

"...you can't please all of the people all of the time!"


we're now 50 posts into this thread and the consistent message is that someone will always find fault with whatever method is employed to determine winners.

in my experience I have found that in situations like this people who tend to gripe have issues that have more to do with control than with winning.

for my money this site is just fine the way it is. if my photos don't get picked for the top 10 and don't win then I'd better get my a** in gear and work harder, or stop entering. simple really!

can we move on? we should be expending all of this energy on our art not our egos. I completely agree with Angelo on this!
I think the challenge is not really about winning but about going through the process of creating and improving, while being possible to have a perception of how others personally view and interpret our work.
Thus, as with any art form, the feeling of a certain majority of people is not always coincident with our own/other people than that feelings about it, and that does not make it less valuable.

Roger

[wxwax]

So, what are MY suggestions, you ask? I dont' have any because I am not unhappy with our current system. If things do change, I'm sure I'll be fine with that too. :dunno

Will you please stop being so reasonable and get with the program? :wxwax




:lol3

[digital faerie]

I agree. There does seem to be a lot of newbies that haven't entered or only entered a time or two complaining here. I didn't get picked my first try either. Why? :scratch I dunno. Did I cry about it? :cry No. Those who have been here a while and complain about never getting picked for the top ten would stop once one of their entries did get selected...I've seen it happen!

So, what are MY suggestions, you ask? I dont' have any because I am not unhappy with our current system. If things do change, I'm sure I'll be fine with that too. :dunno
I'm just going to get all of this out of the way as a "newbie" and clarify again how I personally feel about the challenges:

I really don't want to give up on the challenges because for me, it's not about winning or making it to the finals it's about pushing my own envelope and giving me a focus, so to speak, when I go out at 5 am and I'm searching for that perfect place and perfect light. The last 2 weeks of the previous challenge was very satisfying to me, I felt like I was getting something done, even if I only ended up with one shot that I felt was semi-worthy of being submitted into the challenge. I still learned something about myself and my camera and that is priceless. :clap But there's something to be said when comments are made about "abstracts have never done well" or "dogs never win" etc. I haven't been here long enough to know for sure, but it makes me wonder.
now, having gotten that out of the way, this thread was an attempt to start an outlet to toss around ideas in the hopes of coming up with a solution. After reading the last few posts I feel like I have to defend myself as a "newbie" for having an opinion that things can always improve at any point in time. I'm idealistic like that. I was taking the constructive criticism that was trying to emerge from the "support" thread from the keyboards of other people -- newbies and old-schoolers alike -- and place it in a thread that didn't involve any poo-flinging.

point being, there were more than newbies that saw a chance to improve but I guess that's what this thread has come to. Fish put it best when he said this thread should be about "brainstorming not blamestorming."

I did learn a lot from this thread thanks to some comments from andy and others who have judged previously, I think that shed some light that not all people were aware of regarding the judging process.

Bottomline this has nothing to do with my submission to the last challenge, so what? I don't do this to win. I think I've made that pretty clear before and hopefully have done so here again.

Thanks. :1drink :1drink

[Angelo]

After reading the last few posts I feel like I have to defend myself as a "newbie" for having an opinion that things can always improve at any point in time.
DF: I'm as new as you and I like that you started this thread to illicit civil discourse on the matter. It beats the heck out of its predecessor.

My last comment (#49) was simply an attempt to finally wrap this up because I was reading much the same in all of the posts.

[Charlie Brown]

i dont think any of us "newbies" are complaining, were here to learn and to share. there were several other threads that had the same point, but the theme and tome of DFs thread is much better. i think all that is going on in this on in particular is to find out where we al think the judgring process is and if/how it can be imroved upon. no one here is complaining, fish banned that dude.



cb

[landrum]

Will you please stop being so reasonable and get with the program? :wxwax

:lol3
Sorry... Okay, I would like Andy to shoot all the photos for my entries! Then if they don't make it in I'm going to REALLY have a fit because of the biased nature of this whole system!! :evil It's a conspiracy, I tell you!! I bet Ward Churchill is behind it! ...or maybe the Nazis... Hmm, who else can I blame?

:rofl:rofl :rofl :rofl

[DavidTO]

DF: I'm as new as you and I like that you started this thread to illicit civil discourse on the matter. It beats the heck out of its predecessor.

My last comment (#49) was simply an attempt to finally wrap this up because I was reading much the same in all of the posts.

Angelo, I try not to be the grammar police, but using illicit when you meant elicit made me laugh.

il·lic·it ** *
Not sanctioned by custom or law; unlawful.

e·lic·it **
To bring or draw out (something latent); educe.
To arrive at (a truth, for example) by logic.
To call forth, draw out, or provoke (a reaction, for example).

[Angelo]

Angelo, I try not to be the grammar police, but using illicit when you meant elicit made me laugh.

il·lic·it ** *
Not sanctioned by custom or law; unlawful.

e·lic·it **
To bring or draw out (something latent); educe.
To arrive at (a truth, for example) by logic.
To call forth, draw out, or provoke (a reaction, for example).You are correct and I chalk up the error chiefly to absent-minded speed typing, however I'm humbled by the correction. I am glad I could provide you with some humor.

What is particularly funny about your posting is I found myself starting a pedantic thread of my own, since abandoned, with details about the proper use of the adjective "too" vs the preposition "to" as well as the proper use of contractions; ie. "you're" for "you are" vs "your". Have you tallied the number of errors of this type? That no doubt would bring about side-splitting laughter. :rofl

[wxwax]

My peeve is improper use of apostrophes. And we all know how painful that can be.

Charlie, you have a camera. Time to enter a Challenge. :evil

[Andy]

My peeve is improper use of apostrophes. And we all know how painful that can be.


http://adactio.com/journal/images/20020415175842.jpg

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example82.jpg

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example90.jpg

and loads more here (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example93.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/examples_3.htm&h=212&w=308&sz=24&tbnid=TDEM0V6B9iAJ:&tbnh=77&tbnw=112&start=16&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dapostrophe%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client %3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DG)

i've given up trying to correct the problem. i now simply snicker...

sigh

[wxwax]

*groan*

:lol3

According to the NY Times style guide, this one is technically correct. Mostly because of appearance I think - it looks odd to have a letter beside a number all on its lonesome.

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/images/example34.jpg

[digismile]

It's Saturday and the wife's away in Montreal to see the grandkids, so here I am reading a thread that never ends ...

It seems like all this brainstorming is trying to fix something that's possibly unfixable ... I have had my own moments of "that's unfair", "that's biased", "that's subjective", etc. only to realize, isn't that life?!?

Here's a couple of points I've been thinking long and hard on:

1. A primary reason a lot of us enter the challenges is for validation. Face it, wouldn't we all like to win?:D It's like being picked first in the school yard. It makes use feel worthwhile. A lot of us probably saw the first Survivor of the current series and watched as the team selection got down to the last few ... Please let me be picked ...

As we strive to improve our photography, the challenge and the selection is a way to "prove" that we are improving, or so we think.

2. If we momentarily forget the real practical reason for only limiting this challenge to 10, it is suggested that opening up the voting to all photos will somehow make things fair. It won't.

I spent years critiquing and being critiqued by other musicians as we all honed our skills and artistic abilities. Even when we all had a similar background, technical abilities, etc. it was hard not to be biased.

If we wanted this to be a "fair" vote, we would have many criteria to base it on such as technical merit, artisitic interpretation, etc., we would throw out the high and the low scores ... oops I'm sounding like diving/figure skating/_______ (fill in your judged sport of choice). We KNOW how FAIR those sports are (and I was in competitive diving for 10 years ...)

Do you really believe that we are all selecting the "best" photo in the same way? Of course not.

So what is my suggestion to "fix" the voting issue with the challenges?

HAVE NO VOTING

I think one of the true purposes (or maybe THE purpose) of the challenge is to expand our technical and artistic abilities by trying something that maybe we wouldn't have done otherwise.

I can say with all honesty that I would be thrilled to win a challenge. It's my competitive nature to want to be the best. I came second twice and ,yes, I was a little disappointed. But the challenges have done much more than just some momentary validation, they have made me a better photographer. Even if YOU don't see it:D . My favorite challenge was the Triptych. I loved the entries in that challenge. I just didn't have time to enter during the contest period. But I have created a couple since the challenge. If not for the challenge, I would never have tried ...

I find it sad that we've come to the point where feelings/egos have caused such a disagreement about these challenges that a member had to be banned. For those of you that thought he was simply a whiner maybe haven't had the pleasure of seeing some truly inspiring photography.

Let's not be FredMiranda. FredMiranda is Fred Miranda. If we have to have a winner, let's leave things as is. It's the simplest and most practical way, given what we have (It was my birthday this week and my horoscope said "you're resourceful and pragmatic. You work with what you've got". Yes, that's me!).

Or maybe we should consider these challenges as a way to improve our craft and not vote. I think it was Angelo who said that we should move on and put more energy into our photography.

I'm easy either way. No vote or leave the challenges the same. But let's keep the challanges going.

Respectfully,
Brad

[Charlie Brown]

My peeve is improper use of apostrophes. And we all know how painful that can be.

Charlie, you have a camera. Time to enter a Challenge. :evil

i can do one this week....but youll hav eto let me post nudes :D.

ive got ideas for the next couple of challenges.

im always available to go shoot you know :rolleyes


cb