Monthly Assignment #1: Bottles

[Nikolai]

A common household item made of transparent or colored glass (or plastic) and carrying a transparent or colored (or even totally opaque) liquid, bottles provide surprisingly difficult photography target.

This time we'll try to take a good shot at them. To help us with our noble quest is Master Ken, aka LiquidAir *). You all know him from his numerous challenge wins, exquisite lighting skills and meticulous attention to every detail.

Now, your task is to bring your own version of a bottle shot.

Suggested scenarios are:

Empty clear bottle(s)
Empty colored bottle(s)
Clear bottle(s) with clear liquid (e.g. vodka)
Clear bottle(s) with colored liquid (e.g. whiskey)
Colored bottle(s) with clear liquid (e.g. vermuth)
Colored bottle(s) with colored liquid (e.g. red wine)You can follow Ken's instructions (next post), or come out with your own ideas. In any case be prepared to be examined and critiqued.
While we gonna struggle for quality, it's understandable that you may not get it right the first (or second, or third, or tenth) time. That's totally OK. You are encouraged to post, assume the critique, reshoot, post, listen, etc. Since we have a whole month, we should have enough time to work things out.

EDITS:

This is the entry thread
Please also post the pictures of your setup (maybe as a separate entry)


Now, without further ado, I give you Master Ken and The Bottles :clap

--------------
*) About Ken:

Name: Ken Oetzel
Home: San Rafael, California
Occupation: Software Engineer

Says Ken:

I was introduced to photography at a very young age. My family had a black and white enlarger and around once a month we would convert a bathroom into an impromptu darkroom to print the family photographs. In college I worked in a photo lab which rolled and developed E6 so I started shooting color. It was only in July of 2006 that I replaced my EOS-3 film body with a 5D DSLR. This last year has been an enormous learning experience as I have largely relearned the craft of photograhy to shoot digital.

[LiquidAir]

Preliminaries
First things first: this is an essay about studio lighting. If you are not used to studio work, be prepared for a change in mindset. You are not capturing a scene, you are creating it. Studio photography means taking full control of everything the camera sees and particularly in the case of glass photography this will require 360 degree control of the space you are shooting in. Minimally to get though this assignment you will need one off camera light source, a translucent white diffuser cloth, and a black background cloth. However, if you want to get more sophtisticated you'll need at least two off camera lights and a plethora of little bits and pieces from the local craft store. While you can use hot lights, you should be careful with them because, well, they are hot and can start fires if they are enclosed or held too close to something flammable (like a diffuser cloth). Personlly I use shoe mount strobes for most of my still life work.

Introduction
To kick off this assignment, I am going to cover two basic strategies for lighting glass. Note that much of the material I am discussing here starts from the book Light, Science and Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting by Fil Hunter, Steven Biver and Paul Fuqua (http://www.amazon.com/Light-Science-Introduction-Photographic-Lighting/dp/0240808193/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-9732015-4832407?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186424546&sr=1-1). I am not going to assume you have read this book, but if you are interested in this topic, you should read it. Over the weeks, I intend to expand these basics in a few directions toward some more sophisticated lighting strategies.

The Basics of Still Life Shooting
Generally the way I work is this: the camera goes on a tripod with a cable release and then I set up the camera to frame my working space. Next I set up my background. Then build my scene by placing my subjects in the scene. After that I try to determine the proper aperture and focus point to get my entire scene sharp. Almost always this means using manual focus to pick the focus distance which allows the widest possible aperture; the shutter speed is set to the fastest sync speed the camera allows and the ISO is set to 100. At this point, the camera work is done; the remaining work is done entirely with the lights. In particular, I usually adjust for proper exposure by changing the flash power rather than with settings on the camera; this is always done by chimping the histogram with the flash set in manual mode. I never use any form of auto exposure for studio work and flash meters work extremely poorly for glass and other reflective objects; it is possible to get the exposure right with a spot meter but in this day and age its not worth the effort. In the circumstances where the flash is not powerful enough, to get the exposure I want I will set the flash on full power and bump the ISO for proper exposure.

[LiquidAir]

Light and Glass
Diffuse reflection is the most common form of light we photograph. It is an idealization, but for many materials a good one; incident light meters are calibrated to it, much of lighting theory is based on it, and we often use circular polarizers eliminate other forms of light. In a nutshell what makes glass challenging it the complete lack of diffuse reflections. Because of that we have to completely rethink our instincts both for exposure and lighting. If your goal is to show the three dimensional form of the glass there are really to major approaches: refraction and reflection. In a nutshell, glass usually behaves both as a mirror and as a lens. Of course flat glass is a rather boring lens and the lenses in your camera are coated to make them poor mirrors. None-the-less, most pieces of glass you are likely to be interested in photographing are like to exhibit both properties to some degree. The true key to lighting glass is to really look at the lens-like and mirror-like properties of your subject and decide how to exploit them to create the image you want.

Refractive Lighting
http://gallery.liquidairphoto.com/photos/182333539-M.jpg
What I mean by Refractive Lighting is lighting the subject in a way that reveals its form because of how the light passing through it is refracted. Curved glass is refractive which means it bends light and distorts any image which passes through it. As the glass gets thicker and more curved this effect gets stronger. The general strategy for using refraction to show the form of glass is to light the glass from behind with a high contrast pattern. The most common approaches for mildly refractive subjects are either to use a white backdrop with a black border or a black backdrop with a white border. In either case the border is placed just outside the camera's direct view so that is only visible via refraction in the glass subject. With some highly refractive objects (like dewdrops and full wine glasses) it possible to actually use the subject as a lens to reveal a secondary subject in the background.

Here is the simple setup I used for the refractive lighting sample:
http://gallery.liquidairphoto.com/photos/182333592-M.jpg
Here I have placed my diffuser directly behind the bottle and the flash zoomed to a narrow beam behind it. Exposure is set for the surface of the diffuser which is very bright, so the flash set to 1/128 power to allow an f/8 aperture. The cross in the light pattern is created by the fresnel lens in the flash at close range. Personally I'd rather have a more even back light, but that would require double diffusing the flash which I deemed out of the scope of this introduction. Double diffusion is coming, just not yet. As a side note, the reason you pay good money for good quality soft boxes is that they have an internal baffle specifically designed to smooth out any unevenness in the light source.

Reflective Lighting
http://gallery.liquidairphoto.com/photos/182407857-M.jpg
By Reflective Lighting I mean revealing the form of the subject through specular reflection off of its surface. Glass usually has a polished surface which makes it reflective. It is possible then to show the form of the glass in how it reflects its environment. If the glass is clear, it is best to make sure that the background is black so that the transmitted light doesn't compete with the reflections. Specular reflections from point light sources are very bright and will blow out so you should use large diffuse light sources. If you don't have a soft box use either a bounce card or a white diffuser sheet. Umbrellas aren't a good choice for reflective subjects because the ribs will show.

Here is the setup I used for the reflective lighting sample:
http://gallery.liquidairphoto.com/photos/182407865-M.jpg
To create a visible reflection on the bottle I have used a black back drop and placed my white diffuser to right of the bottle and slightly behind it. The flash, triggered by a Canon ST-E2 infrared trigger and set to 1/8 power is on a stand behind the diffuser. I have adjusted the bottle and flash position so the reflection of the light is visible in the flat surface on the side of this triangular bottle.

There are many other ways to light specific glass subjects. For instance tinted subjects can reveal form through density and dirty, impure or frosted glass can reveal form through scattered light. However, for this article we are going to stick to just two, reflection and refraction, because they are quite commonly useful for solving some difficult lighting problems.

I have put these setup shots in a tutorial style gallery here: http://gallery.liquidairphoto.com/gallery/3286902/1/182407865. I'll keep adding to this gallery as I do more shots.

[LiquidAir]

Planning the Shot
Before you start lighting your subject, it is best to decide up front whether you are going to use reflection or refraction for your lighting strategy. Generally, if the subject highly refractive (i.e. behaving like a fish eye lens it is best to use a white field refractive approach (with white directly behind the subject and black outside the camera's field of view) because otherwise you will have a hard time controlling reflections off the subject. If the subject is not refractive enough you may have to put your border too close to your subject to get the framing you would like which would indicate using a reflective strategy. If your subject is darkly tinted or translucent in a way that will obscure light transmission you should again choose reflection. While many subjects will force your hand to pick one strategy or the other, there are also some subjects where either will work and the choice is personal taste.

Lighting Bottles
Now for a few samples just to get you thinking about it.

Empty Clear Bottle: Empty bottles typically bend the light passing through their edges enough that you can create an outline around the bottle using refractive light. The effect gives you a two dimensional look as the center of the bottle is not curved enough to pick up the contrasting border. Reflective lighting is possible on a clear empty bottle but it takes extremely careful background control to provide a sufficiently dark background for good contrast.

Empty Tinted Bottle: If you want to show the color of the glass, you must shine light through it. With light colored glass it is probably best to use refractive lighting. With dark colored glass it is possible to show the color with a back light and still have sufficient contrast to use reflections to show form.

Clear (or lightly colored) Full Bottle: The strong refractions of a full bottle make refractive lighting a better choice here and controlling reflections will put the emphasis on the contents of the bottle.

Dark Full Bottle: A dark full bottle is similar to a darkly tinted bottle. To show form it is usually best to use reflections. Again a back light can sometimes be used to show the color of the bottle contents.

Photos of bottles are everywhere. When you see one, take a moment to examine the choices the photographer made.

[dlscott56]

Awesome!!!!!

Is this the posting thread?

[dlscott56]

f 8.0, ISO100, 1/200. On camera flash set not to fire. Commander mode to fire remote. Remote on a box behind a sheet of gel paper hung from string (don't have a diffuser but am so excited about this new monthly assignment thing I may finally buy one!) Shot several times, adjusting remote flash output. Ended up with -2.0 compensation on the flash. I had a hard time deciding which was better, more detail in thicker parts of the glass while blowing out some of the thinner areas, or the other way a round, or if there's just a better way I could set it up to get both.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/183065344-L.jpg

[Nikolai]

f 8.0, ISO100, 1/200. On camera flash set not to fire. Commander mode to fire remote. Remote on a box behind a sheet of gel paper hung from string (don't have a diffuser but am so excited about this new monthly assignment thing I may finally buy one!) Shot several times, adjusting remote flash output. Ended up with -2.0 compensation on the flash. I had a hard time deciding which was better, more detail in thicker parts of the glass while blowing out some of the thinner areas, or the other way a round, or if there's just a better way I could set it up to get both.


This is great, thank you! :clap
Would you mind shooting and posting your setup (like Ken did)? I understand it's totally DIY, but that's one of the reason we started the whole thing, to show that the great shots can be pulled without selling your limbs and internal organs. :thumb

On the C&C side: I asked for Bottles, not vases or just any other glass. :wink This vase can be your "extra credit" shot, but we need to do the primary homework, too:-) :deal Otherwise it would be like going out for a meal and having being offered only a dessert (though I'm sure my wife and daughters would not mind that:-)

[dlscott56]

This is great, thank you! :clap
Would you mind shooting and posting your setup (like Ken did)? I understand it's totally DIY, but that's one of the reason we started the whole thing, to show that the great shots can be pulled without selling your limbs and internal organs. :thumb
Here's the setup. The flash is setting on top of the cat litter box. And then from the angle the shot was taken.

http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/183083063-S.jpg

http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/183083365-S-1.jpg


On the C&C side: I asked for Bottles, not vases or just any other glass. :wink This vase can be your "extra credit" shot, but we need to do the primary homework, too:-) :deal Otherwise it would be like going out for a meal and having being offered only a dessert (though I'm sure my wife and daughters would not mind that:-)

Bottles :scratch, right! I'll be back!

[Nikolai]

Here's the setup.
Thank you very much! Exactly what I was hoping to see! :thumb

Bottles :scratch, right! I'll be back!
I bet you will:-) :wink

[Llywellyn]

I collect glass bottles, so I guess I shouldn't even try to avoid this one. :D

My first attempts below. (I get closer daily to just going out to buy that SB600...)

ISO 100
f/9.0
Exposure 1/60s
80mm
http://blackcatphoto.smugmug.com/photos/183149694-M.jpg

Same settings as above
http://blackcatphoto.smugmug.com/photos/183154106-M.jpg

ISO 100
f/11.0
Exposure 1/5s
80mm
http://blackcatphoto.smugmug.com/photos/183147225-M.jpg

[Nikolai]

I collect glass bottles, so I guess I shouldn't even try to avoid this one. :D

My first attempts below.

Thank you! Totally not bad, esp. for a first time! :thumb
I would try to avoid such a large portion of the desk surface by using a smaller support or lowering the camera.

Please don't forget to share your setup pictures! :deal

[Llywellyn]

Thank you! Totally not bad, esp. for a first time! :thumb

:rofl Ha! That made me laugh aloud. I totally interpreted that as "completely not good."

I realized I had too much desk in the shot during PP, but I had already broken down the set-up (because, well, it blocked my access to my computer). So other than that, what can I do to take this from "totally not bad" to "moderately acceptable"? :D

My set-up was in my office. Small table stacked with books and a black t-shirt thrown over it. Spot set up on the desk behind the table. Shoji screen moved between the desk and table. When I needed to switch the background from white to black, well, I "creatively" hung another black t-shirt behind the bottle.

http://blackcatphoto.smugmug.com/photos/183422689-M.jpg

Is there an award at the end for most jerryrigged set-up? :wink

[dlscott56]

Here's a bottle shot using both methods described. Set up for the first is exactly as shown in my last post. f\8.0, iso 100, 1/200. Any exposure adjustments made using flash comp settings.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/183453801-L.jpg

In the second one it looks like I'm getting some color reflected off the cabinets to the left. I'll try to find some more black material to cover them up and shoot it again later.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/183453696-L.jpg

Same exif info but new set up shown below.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/183454083-S.jpg
Sorry for the bad set up shot. The gel sheet is hanging from string on the right side. I hand held the off camera flash behind the gel.

[LiquidAir]

Sorry, its been a busy weekend. Just getting caught up.

Dave, here's some thoughts on your pitcher: First of all, nice work. I like it. I do have a few simple suggestions. If you can, lower the camera a bit you you get less of the table. As for the back light, it looks like your flash is giving you a pretty round spot. I think you'll probably be happier with a spot that is taller to more closely match the shape of the frame. I am getting a little ahead of myself here (I'll be covering this idea in more detail later in the month), but one thing you can do is back the flash off a bit and use a mask to control the shape of the spot on your diffuser. A simple thing to do is take a piece of black cardboard and cut a 2:3 aspect ratio hole in it (to match the shape of the camera frame). You can then adjust the size of the spot by moving the flash and the mask. Finally, I don't bother with using the camera flash meter for these shots; I find it to be more work than it's worth. I put the flash in manual exposure mode and chimp shots while adjusting the power.

As for trying to get light through the thicker parts of the pitcher, I think this particular pitcher is a great candidate for combining refractive and reflective lighting. If you have a second flash, try setting up a second diffuser to the right of the pitcher. You'll also want a mask for this one but it doens't have to be 2:3. Just make sure that the lit area on the diffuser is at least as high as the pitcher itself and preferrably a bit higher. As for flash power, I'll keep the reflection fairly dark so it doesn't compete with your main light.

[LiquidAir]

I collect glass bottles, so I guess I shouldn't even try to avoid this one. :D

My first attempts below. (I get closer daily to just going out to buy that SB600...)


Wow, those are some great bottles and some nice shots.

A few thoughts:

Like Dave, I think you need to get the camera lower because the bottle gets lost against the dark background of the table. I'll often hold the camera even with the edge of the table. A lens with tilts can be really handy for this shots, but those are esoteric and expensive. There are some other options: you can try a white table or even a mirror as a surface to set the bottle on.

Your final bottle with the reflective light looks to me like a great candidate for a second light as a backlight. I am guessing that this bottle is quite darkly colored so even if you turn the back light up bright enough to appear white the color you'll get through the glass will still be fairly dark so the reflection will still appear as a highlight on the glass.

If you don't have a second flash, here is one thing to try. Set up an incandescent bulb as your back light and put some CTO (color temperature orange) gel on your flash to match the flash color to the light. This set is a handy collection of gels for color matching your flash, (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/218770-REG/Bogen_Manfrotto_CI_FP212_Cool_Warm_Colors_Filter_Pack.html) but there are others; you can get single sheets of a wide variety of colors. Cut them to fit; I use velcro to attach gels to my flash, but a rubber band works. Using a contiuous light for the background works nicely because you can control the relative power of the back light and the flash by adjusting the shutter speed.

[wxwax]

LiquidAir, great stuff! :thumb

[Nikolai]

:rofl Ha! That made me laugh aloud. I totally interpreted that as "completely not good."
You were wrong! :deal
You should've interpreted it as "very nice", which, in fact, was exactly my own interpretation :D

I realized I had too much desk in the shot during PP, but I had already broken down the set-up (because, well, it blocked my access to my computer). So other than that, what can I do to take this from "totally not bad" to "moderately acceptable"? :D
I take bribes in full bottles, please consult with Ann, David and Sid about the proper content...:wink

Is there an award at the end for most jerryrigged set-up? :wink
That's up to Master Ken this time :deal
:lust

[dlscott56]

Sorry, its been a busy weekend. Just getting caught up.

Dave, here's some thoughts on your pitcher: First of all, nice work. I like it. I do have a few simple suggestions. If you can, lower the camera a bit you you get less of the table. As for the back light, it looks like your flash is giving you a pretty round spot. I think you'll probably be happier with a spot that is taller to more closely match the shape of the frame. I am getting a little ahead of myself here (I'll be covering this idea in more detail later in the month), but one thing you can do is back the flash off a bit and use a mask to control the shape of the spot on your diffuser. A simple thing to do is take a piece of black cardboard and cut a 2:3 aspect ratio hole in it (to match the shape of the camera frame). You can then adjust the size of the spot by moving the flash and the mask. Finally, I don't bother with using the camera flash meter for these shots; I find it to be more work than it's worth. I put the flash in manual exposure mode and chimp shots while adjusting the power.

As for trying to get light through the thicker parts of the pitcher, I think this particular pitcher is a great candidate for combining refractive and reflective lighting. If you have a second flash, try setting up a second diffuser to the right of the pitcher. You'll also want a mask for this one but it doens't have to be 2:3. Just make sure that the lit area on the diffuser is at least as high as the pitcher itself and preferrably a bit higher. As for flash power, I'll keep the reflection fairly dark so it doesn't compete with your main light.

Thanks for the feedback Ken. Here's another attempt using a mask for the flash. Playing around with this I can see where you could get some interesting effects in the background lighting.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/183677352-L.jpg
I'm going to try and rig a little better set up since it was kind of hard to control the flash position and the mask the way it is. I'll jury rig something up to give me better control over the position and try it again later in the week.

[Nikolai]

Thanks for the feedback Ken. Here's another attempt using a mask for the flash. Playing around with this I can see where you could get some interesting effects in the background lighting.

I'm going to try and rig a little better set up since it was kind of hard to control the flash position and the mask the way it is. I'll jury rig something up to give me better control over the position and try it again later in the week.

In this version I like the more defined contrast between glass and the b/g. :thumb
However, the really tight light patch on the b/g is ditracting, IMHO, I think it should be either better shaped or PS-ed into the rest. :deal

[pathfinder]

My technique was pretty basic - studio softbox directly behind the bottles about 12 inches, triggered by a flash of light from the flash on my camera that illuminated the front of the bottle labels. Along either side of the shooting axis, I draped black vinyl sheets to prevent stray light from reflecting off the bottles. I spent about an hour or so shooting several shots. Here are a few of them. 20 D 85mm ISO 100 f9 - 11 1/160th

Wine is nice -

http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184068219-L.jpghttp://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184068421-L.jpg





























Liquor is quicker

http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184069227-L.jpg


A cold one is always welcome...

http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184068078-L.jpg

Three's a crowd

http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184068843-L.jpg

I welcome comments or criticisms.:thumb

[Nikolai]

My technique was pretty basic -
...
I welcome comments or criticisms.:thumb
Great shots! :thumb Thank you for playing with us!
Corona bottle looks a bit tilted, but you probably already had some by then :wink
Care to post some shots of your setup?

[pathfinder]

Great shots! :thumb Thank you for playing with us!
Corona bottle looks a bit tilted, but you probably already had some by then :wink
Care to post some shots of your setup?

Nik - I didn't shoot any set up shots as it was as simple as I described - Studio softbox 6-12 inches behind the bottles. Studio strobe ( FLashpoint 620) at 1/8th power into a 16 x 30 inch softbox. Two pieces of black vinyl hanging parallel to the lens axis, to prevent any light from either side of the bottles, and a flash on my camera to illuminate the labels facing the camera. The studio strobe was triggered by the flash light on the camera. Bottle was sitting on a black speaker cabinet about 1 foot square in size. Simple as can be Camera lens optic ----->bottle -> studio strobe

[Nikolai]

Nik - I didn't shoot any set up shots as it was as simple as I described - Studio softbox 6-12 inches behind the bottles. Studio strobe ( FLashpoint 620) at 1/8th power into a 16 x 30 inch softbox. Two pieces of black vinyl hanging parallel to the lens axis, to prevent any light from either side of the bottles, and a flash on my camera to illuminate the labels facing the camera. The studio strobe was triggered by the flash light on the camera. Bottle was sitting on a black speaker cabinet about 1 foot square in size. Simple as can be Camera lens optic ----->bottle -> studio strobe
Thank you! :thumb

[pathfinder]

Great shots! :thumb Thank you for playing with us!
Corona bottle looks a bit tilted, but you probably already had some by then :wink
Care to post some shots of your setup?

If you look carefully all the bottles are not exactly square - that is a result of my shooting handheld ( I was using flash so shutter speed did not matter really ) and did not hold the sensor plane vertical and parallel to the subject plane.

If I was being paid for this work, I would have mounted my camera on a tripod and use a bubble level to verify that the sensor plane was vertical and square to the subject plane. Just a quick and dirty effort on my part.

I might use a 50mm lens next time in lieu of the 85mm on my 20D. But then I would have to be even more careful about squaring up the camera properly.

I should mention the flash I used on the camera was an MT-24ex, which has two flash lamps, that I used on either side of my lens to help eliminate reflections in the center of the bottles. I had been using this flash for macro on my 20D so I just grabbed it and swapped the macro lens for the 85mm lens.

[Nikolai]

If you look carefully all the bottles are not exactly square - that is a result of my shooting handheld ( I was using flash so shutter speed did not matter really ) and did not hold the sensor plane vertical and parallel to the subject plane.

If I was being paid for this work, I would have mounted my camera on a tripod and use a bubble level to verify that the sensor plane was vertical and square to the subject plane. Just a quick and dirty effort on my part.

I might use a 50mm lens next time in lieu of the 85mm on my 20D. But then I would have to be even more careful about squaring up the camera properly.

I should mention the flash I used on the camera was an MT-24ex, which has two flash lamps, that I used on either side of my lens to help eliminate reflections in the center of the bottles. I had been using this flash for macro on my 20D so I just grabbed it and swapped the macro lens for the 85mm lens.

Ah-ha, I thought there was something shaky :-) :deal :wink :rofl
Thank you for the details! :thumb
BTW, why didn't you use the macro lens? I heard that they make excellent portrait lenses and hence would do pretty good in this assignment? :scratch

[fashiznitsngrins]

This is good for me. I just bought myself a pair of strobe lights and now I get to learn how to use them! :D A little note about some of the bottles - they may look dirty but I found them years ago on a beach outside London in what is know as a Victorian dumping site. I wish I could have captured the writing on the front of the bottles better (like in photo #1), but after seeing Pathfinder's shots, I am thinking about trying some fill flash perhaps?? Alright - let me have it... I want to learn! Thanks

(I also need help with my PP skills as you can see from the first two. Whenever I use curves to try and bring the black out in the first photo, it darkens the bottle too much and makes it turn blue, when it is green).

NOTE: By changing my lighting slightly, I was able to better capture the writing on the front (new image posted) and that gave a better color too...

http://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184572592-M.jpghttp://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184117173-M.jpg

http://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184117026-M.jpghttp://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184116901-M.jpg

http://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184116560-M.jpghttp://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184116375-M.jpg

http://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184117287-M.jpg

and here's my set up... (I never used the second strobe, just the one with the softbox on it)
http://1anda2.smugmug.com/photos/184116875-M.jpg

[Nikolai]

This is good for me. I just bought myself a pair of strobe lights and now I get to learn how to use them! :D A little note about some of the bottles - they may look dirty but I found them years ago on a beach outside London in what is know as a Victorian dumping site. I wish I could have captured the writing on the front of the bottles better (like in photo #2), but after seeing Pathfinder's shots, I am thinking about trying some fill flash perhaps?? Alright - let me have it... I want to learn! Thanks

(I also need help with my PP skills as you can see fromt he first two. Whenever I use curves to try and bring the black out in the first photo, it darkens the bottle too much and makes it turn blue, when it is green).

Thank you for joining us! :clap
Nice set of both relective and refractive shots (and a setup;-). :thumb
I'm sure Ken will have more things to say on the point, I just wanted to say that it could be beneficial to mask the part of your primary light. The idea (according to the book Ken mentioned) is to have the b/g exactly to fill the frame, but not much bigger.
Nice setup, btw! :thumb

[fashiznitsngrins]

... I just wanted to say that it could be beneficial to mask the part of your primary light. The idea (according to the book Ken mentioned) is to have the b/g exactly to fill the frame, but not much bigger.


I'm not following... can you show me where this info is - I must have missed it.


Also, where I was saying about using fill flash, should I be using my second strobe?

Thanks!

[Nikolai]

I'm not following... can you show me where this info is - I must have missed it.
It's in Ken'd post:

...
Introduction
To kick off this assignment, I am going to cover two basic strategies for lighting glass. Note that much of the material I am discussing here starts from the book Light, Science and Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting by Fil Hunter, Steven Biver and Paul Fuqua (http://www.amazon.com/Light-Science-Introduction-Photographic-Lighting/dp/0240808193/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-9732015-4832407?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186424546&sr=1-1). I am not going to assume you have read this book, but if you are interested in this topic, you should read it. Over the weeks, I intend to expand these basics in a few directions toward some more sophisticated lighting strategies.
...


Also, where I was saying about using fill flash, should I be using my second strobe?
Thanks!
Probably yes, not exactly sure, though, :dunno can you elaborate, please?:rolleyes

[dlscott56]

In this version I like the more defined contrast between glass and the b/g. :thumb
However, the really tight light patch on the b/g is ditracting, IMHO, I think it should be either better shaped or PS-ed into the rest. :deal

Thanks for the feedback Nik. I'll give it another try with a better mask. I'm working on a "new improved" setup to help.

[dlscott56]

Wow, those are some great bottles and some nice shots.

A few thoughts:
...
If you don't have a second flash, here is one thing to try. Set up an incandescent bulb as your back light and put some CTO (color temperature orange) gel on your flash to match the flash color to the light. This set is a handy collection of gels for color matching your flash, (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/218770-REG/Bogen_Manfrotto_CI_FP212_Cool_Warm_Colors_Filter_Pack.html) but there are others; you can get single sheets of a wide variety of colors. Cut them to fit; I use velcro to attach gels to my flash, but a rubber band works. Using a contiuous light for the background works nicely because you can control the relative power of the back light and the flash by adjusting the shutter speed.

Once you do this with the incandescent light and the gel do you need to set the white balance? Or shoot a 18% card?

[LiquidAir]

Once you do this with the incandescent light and the gel do you need to set the white balance? Or shoot a 18% card?

Setting the white balance for tungesten ought to be close. More accurate is to take a picture of the diffuser and white balance for it. If I have a diffused light source, I don't bother with a white/grey card for WB because I can go straight to the source.

[LiquidAir]

Great work pathfinder and fashiznitsngrins. I'll get back to you in a day or two with detailed comments.

[dlscott56]

Here's the new improved set up and another try at controlling the light better.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/184350450-S.jpg
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/184350060-L.jpg

[Antonio Correia]

It's late in the night now and I have to go to sleep, but here is my 1.st attempt to this assignment.
It's the first try and believe me, I tried hard. I fought with the hole stuff for some hours :dunno
The set-up and one picture. The other one is missing for the moment because I don't have any black cloth.
The set-up photo is out of focus because it was switched off I did not notice.
:thumb
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/184353773-M.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/184354655-M.jpg

[Nikolai]

Here's the new improved set up and another try at controlling the light better.

Wow, nice setup, you're getting into this stuff, aren't you? :wink
I presume you don't have any other light on when you actually shoot, correct?
I like the last result! :thumb

[Nikolai]

It's late in the night now and I have to go to sleep, but here is my 1.st attempt to this assignment.
It's the first try and believe me, I tried hard. I fought with the hole stuff for some hours :dunno
The set-up and one picture. The other one is missing for the moment because I don't have any black cloth.
The set-up photo is out of focus because it was switched off I did not notice.
:thumb

Thank you, nice entry! :thumb
One thing I remember from the book is that you need to control the stray light. In your case you need to block the light from the flash that goes outside your diffuser. Please check Dave's setup, see how he blocks most of the light with his cut foam board? :deal

HTH

[pathfinder]

Here are some of my reflection shots - shot with a 20D and a 45mm lens f8 1/200th ISO 100

http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184391433-L.jpg


http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184390793-L.jpg


http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184390988-L.jpg

The set up is shown here... Black felt background about 16x20inches about 18 9nches back from the bottle on my black speaker stand. 16x30 softbox on the left facing the bottle, and a silver Impact reflector immediately on the right of the bottle. Softbox triggered by a flash on the 20D.

http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184391279-L.jpg

[dlscott56]

Wow, nice setup, you're getting into this stuff, aren't you? :wink


:thumb

[dlscott56]

http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/184664593-L.jpg

[Nikolai]

set
I see you're getting into the collections..:-):thumb
How about adding liquid and using colored glass (please see the lead post for the exact assignments)?

BTW, it looks like you're not getting enough light:dunno To fix that (provided you don't have another light in the room), you can use long/blub exposure and manually trigger the flash as many times as needed. :deal

Another thing to try with the light bg is to put flash behind the objects bu in fron of the white screen, pointing it in the same direction as camera does. This way you may get a might brighter bg...

[dups41]

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/184700301-O.jpg

hmmmmm... amarula.

5D, 50mm f/8 1/160 ISO400. SB28 1/2 power about 1yd behind diffusion panel (foam board)

And the setup is shown below.

--Andrew

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/184700305-S.jpg

[Nikolai]

hmmmmm... amarula.
5D, 50mm f/8 1/160 ISO400. SB28 1/2 power about 1yd behind diffusion panel (foam board)
And the setup is shown below.
--Andrew

Thank you, appreciate sharing the picture and the setup. :thumb

I think the biggest issue with this setup is that you have a lot of white in front. Technically for this type of shot you only want to have bright back diffuser and the rest of the room in a total darkness/blackness. Otherwise, as your shot shows, you get a lot of unvanted reflections...:thumb

[Nikolai]

Here are some of my reflection shots - shot with a 20D and a 45mm lens f8 1/200th ISO 100

The set up is shown here... Black felt background about 16x20inches about 18 9nches back from the bottle on my black speaker stand. 16x30 softbox on the left facing the bottle, and a silver Impact reflector immediately on the right of the bottle. Softbox triggered by a flash on the 20D.

Great shots, thank you! (quite a wine collection, too:-) :thumb
Nice touch with the ribbon. :wink
I like the black reflecting stand, too:-) :thumb

#2 seem to have an exposure issue, the b/g is much brighter than the other two and is plainly visible and distracting...

I must also admit that a frontal flash kinda spoils it for me, I would rather prefer to have the side light only.

HTH

[pathfinder]

:dunno Great shots, thank you! (quite a wine collection, too:-) :thumb
Nice touch with the ribbon. :wink

I just pulled some bottles out from under the stairs - probably been there for years. The green ribbon was part of a Christmas gift - so that bottle is at least 8 months old or 20 months perhaps.

I like the black reflecting stand, too:-) :thumb

The speaker stand was just a convenient height. The black shiny surface was a freebie, that I accidently wandered into.

#2 seem to have an exposure issue, the b/g is much brighter than the other two and is plainly visible and distracting...

By #2, I assume you mean the bottle with the green ribbon. Its background reads about as high as 19,14, 11 on the left side, but 5,3,2 is more typical. The other images have a background reading of 0,0,0 The bottle is so black that if the background is 0,0,0, the bottle almost disappears into the background. The background in #2 does not seem that much brighter on my calibrated monitor:dunno Even readings of 10,10,10 will print black.

I must also admit that a frontal flash kinda spoils it for me, I would rather prefer to have the side light only.

I shot a few frames that way, but the labels were way too dark for my taste, Nick. I guess I could have angled the softbox to light the front more, but that then shed more light onto the background as well.

This was just my first run at this, I may take another pass in a few days. I'm still learning:thumb

[Nikolai]

...The bottle is so black that if the background is 0,0,0, the bottle almost disappears into the background.

With all due respect, it's not gonna happen. :deal
The bottle may be black, but with those two light sources on its sides it will stand out...:ivar

[LiquidAir]

I should mention the flash I used on the camera was an MT-24ex, which has two flash lamps, that I used on either side of my lens to help eliminate reflections in the center of the bottles. I had been using this flash for macro on my 20D so I just grabbed it and swapped the macro lens for the 85mm lens.

Nice job on your shots. The MT-24ex has mostly done a really good job of controlling reflections off the bottles. There are only a couple shots in your set where I can see it.

Your post is a nice entry into talking about lighting labels. Light, Science and Magic has a rather complicated setup using gobos for lighting labels in their discussion of specular lighting (keep in mind that I have version 2 and haven't picked up version 3 yet). However for most botte shots the easy strategy is to hide the reflection behind the label. If you point a small light source (say a flashlight) at the bottle and move it around you can easily find the lighting angles where its reflection in the glass is covered by the label. My preferred way to light the label is with flash using a small diffuser which creates a lightsource around 2-3 times the size of a flash head. This, actually, is a perfect use for some of the small commerical flash diffusers. I use either a Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer or a home made Better Bounce Card made out of white foam. Put is on a stand as close as you can get it to the camera and then move the stand up and down until the reflection of the flash is not visible in the glass. Pathfinder's shots serve as good examples of this, but I'll try to shoot one of my own this weekend.

[LiquidAir]

Here's the new improved set up and another try at controlling the light better.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/184350060-S.jpg

There you go, Dave. Nicely done. Creating even light sources is harder than you'd think. There's still some behind the neck of the bottle, but I think you have gotten close enough that you can correct for it in Photoshop.

If you want to take the next step in improving your light, you'll need a second diffuser which you put between your flash and your mask. If all goes well, I'll be posting a setup shot for that this weekend.

[Quicklebe]

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/185070757-L.jpg



Here is my offering. I had a hard time trying to get distinct edges and a white background. I used a flash behind the diffusers. I ended up using two diffusers to try and get the background an even white.

[Nikolai]

Here is my offering. I had a hard time trying to get distinct edges and a white background. I used a flash behind the diffusers. I ended up using two diffusers to try and get the background an even white.
Thank you! :thumb
To get distinct edges, you need to make sure your white background is only big enough to cover camera's FOV, the rest should be as dark as possible. :deal
HTH

[Antonio Correia]

I find the job with the black back ground more difficult because I haven't any large enough surface to cover the hole bottle.
I hope to be able to have one, during the coming week.
I post here the set up and two photos.
The flash is covered by white tracing paper.
Between the flash and the back of the bottle I inserted the round reflector which I was not able to hold while taking this picture.
Curiously, I spent about 1 hour setting up and shooting. Then I got enought and watched TV for some time. I made my best shots, just before going to sleep when everything was arranged.:D
The large shot is similar to the 1.st one I posted but a little better and I thought I could share it with you.
The second photo is more like: "The wrong light for the labeled bottle":dunno

I will try some more today, Saturday with the same setup, or similar.
Now, I have to go and get some empty bottles, because there is none in the house ! :wink

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185089943-S.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185089126-M.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185089219-Th.jpg
____
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185116141-S.jpg

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185116657-M.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185115569-M.jpg
____
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185256720-S.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185255445-M.jpg

The travel bag was opened as the inside is all black. So, I used it as background.
The flash was handhold at our right behind the bottles. The reflexion on the left of the bottles is from a white card not shown in the setup. :D

Not terribly sharp ! Must repeat ! :huh

[D.Rodgers]

..

[Antonio Correia]

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185455867-S.jpg
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185456060-M.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185089126-M.jpg

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185495704-M.jpg ... http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185479350-M.jpg
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185495341-M.jpg ... http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185481769-M.jpg

[Nikolai]

Great entries!Please excuse the briefness, I just wanted to recognize your input. Very busy this weekend, two large shoots and two deadlines. I'll get back on this later... :thumb

[dlscott56]

I see you're getting into the collections..:-):thumb
How about adding liquid and using colored glass (please see the lead post for the exact assignments)?

http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/185657579-L.jpg


BTW, it looks like you're not getting enough light:dunno To fix that (provided you don't have another light in the room), you can use long/blub exposure and manually trigger the flash as many times as needed. :deal

Another thing to try with the light bg is to put flash behind the objects bu in fron of the white screen, pointing it in the same direction as camera does. This way you may get a might brighter bg...

I'll give the multiple flash a try.

[Quicklebe]

Here are two pictures and a set up picture of lighting from behind. I'm using white foam board as a base. How can I lighten the base more to match the background? I tried using a light from overhead but that caused reflections that I did not want. Using a reflector board from front - by the camera - did not seem to make a difference.


http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/185804380-M.jpg




http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/185804456-M.jpg




http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/185806090-S.jpg

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/gallery/3238035#185804380-L-LBhttp://quicklebe.smugmug.com/gallery/3238035#185806090-L-LB

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/gallery/3238035#185804456-L-LB

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/gallery/3238035#185806090-L-LB

[Antonio Correia]

I find the results by Quicklebe very interesting.:D
He used the "reverse", the "opposite", the "antonym" - if I can say so - of my way: instead of trying to hide the light from the camera side, he did it on the other side of the target.
This way, the ambient reflected light is contained.:thumb

:thumb

[dups41]

I think the biggest issue with this setup is that you have a lot of white in front. Technically for this type of shot you only want to have bright back diffuser and the rest of the room in a total darkness/blackness. Otherwise, as your shot shows, you get a lot of unvanted reflections...:thumb

Thanks for the advice Nikolai. Here is another attempt with more effort put into reflection control. The foil labels were tricky :scratch. This bottle didn't seem to work too well with just a bright back diffuser, the front of the bottle was dark with very little detail. So I tried instead to create a surrounding of unbroken white.


http://www.smugmug.com/photos/185870181-O.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/185870182-S.jpg

I hacked together a home brew softbox with several sheets of thin paper spread evenly throughout a packing box. Here is an attempt with diffused back lighting only:

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/185881800-O.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/185882231-S.jpg

--Andrew

[dlscott56]

As for trying to get light through the thicker parts of the pitcher, I think this particular pitcher is a great candidate for combining refractive and reflective lighting. If you have a second flash, try setting up a second diffuser to the right of the pitcher. You'll also want a mask for this one but it doens't have to be 2:3. Just make sure that the lit area on the diffuser is at least as high as the pitcher itself and preferrably a bit higher. As for flash power, I'll keep the reflection fairly dark so it doesn't compete with your main light.

I tried using the second flash for the pitcher shot. I used Incandescent lighting for the background, adjusted the white balance off the back diffuser, added a gel to the flash to try and match the background lighting, and hand held the flash behind a second diffuser on the side.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/186137960-L.jpg

Setup shots:
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/186137435-S.jpg
background lighting:
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/186137660-S.jpg

hand held flash with gel
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/186137872-S.jpg

[LiquidAir]

I tried using the second flash for the pitcher shot. I used Incandescent lighting for the background, adjusted the white balance off the back diffuser, added a gel to the flash to try and match the background lighting, and hand held the flash behind a second diffuser on the side.
http://4scotts.smugmug.com/photos/186137960-S.jpg


That's great. With the two lights you have painted a complete picture of your pitcher. If you were selling these, your customers would know exactly what they were getting. It looks like you have a slight color mismatch between your lights--that's hard to avoid because the gels aren't perfect and incandescent lamps change color as they age. One thing to try when you are trying to get a good match is changing bulbs That said, at the end of the day, there is a limit to how well you can do with house lighting.

[Antonio Correia]

Magic Studio (http://www.novoflex.de/html_d/produkte.htm)

http://www.novoflex.de/common_d+e/images/IMG_3114+3116.jpg
(http://www.novoflex.de/html_d/produkte.htm)

[LiquidAir]

I find the results by Quicklebe very interesting.:D
He used the "reverse", the "opposite", the "antonym" - if I can say so - of my way: instead of trying to hide the light from the camera side, he did it on the other side of the target.
This way, the ambient reflected light is contained.:thumb

:thumb



The setup Quicklebe is using is particularly good for the glasses he is shooting.

If think about your light setup, you have a bright area behind the glass which ideally is uniform and then a trasition from light to dark at the edges. It is actually that transition from light to dark which creates the contrast that outlines your bottle. Putting the mask in front of the diffuser creates a very sharp transition which results in a well defined line in your subject. If you put the mask behind the diffuser, you can vary how sharp that transition is from sharp if the mask is close to the diffuser to gentle if the mask is close to the light source.

For thin walled glass objects like Quicklebe's glasses, a sharp transition is usually the right choice because the only the very edges of the glass refract enough to make the transition visible. Quicklebe's ligthing strategy works great there because it creates a very high contrast sharp transition which is easily visible over a small areas.

When you have an object which is more refractive, say a bottle with thick glass walls or a full bottle, you have a bit more flexibility with your light. You can use the the hard transition to create a thin outline or you can use a more gentle gradient to give your image a softer look. Using a large diffuser with a long gentle gradient can create a very nice, refined look.

[Antonio Correia]

I built a kind of cone/cylinder with a large plastic bag.
I know that plastic is not the best for such a work but I went ahead.
At the end of the cone I had the flash then the round reflector and I was holding the end of the tunnel with my teeth and hand. That's why my head is bended inside.
My cousin was helping me shooting the camera and making the adjustments I asked to.
Hard to speak with plastic in the mouth :D

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/186480626-S.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/186481330-S.jpg

The result is this:

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/186482938-L.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/186481456-L.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/186477359-L.jpg


There are some reflections of the curtains on the top of the central photo and on the top of the photo on the right, which I only saw now, at the end.:dunno
And now, it is time to go to sleep.
Hope you like this. :D:thumb

[LiquidAir]

Nice, Antonio. The reflective surface you put them on is a nice touch. My one, off the cuff comment is that in your third shot I don't think the glass got enough light. I'd put at least a small gap between the two bottles to let some light through from behind. You're shots definitely give me the impression you live well :D

[LiquidAir]

Here is another attempt with more effort put into reflection control. The foil labels were tricky :scratch. This bottle didn't seem to work too well with just a bright back diffuser, the front of the bottle was dark with very little detail. So I tried instead to create a surrounding of unbroken white.



Heh, foil is its own discussion...

If the bottle has a label you really don't have any choice but to have some light source in front; otherwise the label becomes a silhouette. Add to that the fact that the cream in the bottle is essentially opaque and you really don't have a lot of opportunity to show the form of the bottle with refraction. For Amarula bottle, I'd suggest just using the back to show the color of the bottle and use relfective lighting from the front to show form and light the label.

[LiquidAir]

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/185481769-S.jpg



This shot is an interesting one. There is only the barest hint of reflection off the right side of the bottle. Most of the light we see is actually refracted through the bottle. Refractive lighting can actually work both ways: either with a black or a white background. Often reflections spoil the look of refractive lighting if you use a black backround, but not so for this particular bottle at this angle. This is a classy look; I like it.

Using bolierplate lighting techniques can only take you so far when lighting glass. To take the next step, you really need to look closely at your particular subject to see how it reflects and refracts. Set up your shot and wave your hand around behind the bottle. When can you see it through the bottle? When does it vanish? Where is your hand when you see it at the very edge of the bottle? Use that as your guide for where to place your light.

[SloYerRoll]

Hey Nik.
Imagine my surprise when I saw this thread after I just got done showing some glass shots.
It completely looked like I was ripping off your thread!
Sorry bro.

I really like shooting in a "studio" environment. I can get away from my radio triggers and use PC cables. This lets me really push the shutter speeds into the nosebleeds and capture the light every time.

Here are some fresh shots I took today while messing around. I'm really looking forward to hearing Ken's thoughts on them. As a note, I set the WB off on the first two shots on purpose.

2 strobes:
One lighting background and one tightly snooted to only light bottom of BG:
http://jbritt.smugmug.com/photos/186626452-M.jpg

I liked how it looked so I added a bit to this one and made it look like there was light being poured into the shot glass. All I did was tape two light diffusers set close together to eat up more light and let the small column of light through:
http://jbritt.smugmug.com/photos/186626423-M.jpg

3 strobes (could have done it w/ 2 but since I have three...)
one lighting the background, one snooted to light the label, and one on a very tight snoot lighting the cap only. A bounce card is to the camera left to spread the label light evenly:
http://jbritt.smugmug.com/photos/186628029-M.jpg

This one is trickier than it initially looks.
The shot glass is in the foreground being only lit by the background strobe. The bottle is lit (not that well I might add) by a single strobe to light the bottle and contents. I used a gobo to keep the front strobe from lighting the shot glass and washing out the outline detail:
http://jbritt.smugmug.com/photos/186626593-M.jpg

I have a few setup shots. Didn't read into the thread enough to see that fact until after the fact. I know I should take more setup shots, I just haven't developed that good habit yet..

This one shows the primary strobe and the secondary being fired on the background to create the "orb" of light:
http://jbritt.smugmug.com/photos/186632666-S.jpg

This shot shows how the wild turkey shot was set up minus the gobo and white floor. You will see a 3x5 white light modifier but this is just to soften the light on the bottom half of thie shot I was taking:
http://jbritt.smugmug.com/photos/186632714-S.jpg


EDIT: You will se that I didn't physically controll my environment completely. By using snoots, maxing out strobe power, and keeping the apertures in the really high numbers. I effectively black out my surroundings. Nothing replaces having a "studio" environment. I'm working on being able to take shots like these in virtually any environment to better my lighting skills in a frankenstein manner.

DISCLAIMER:
It may seem like I'm a lush. Quite the contrary. I don't drink and I have these since the last wedding I shot when one of the toasted guests would not let me leave until I was stocked up on booze! :rofl

All the best,

-Jon

[Antonio Correia]

Nice, Antonio. The reflective surface you put them on is a nice touch. My one, off the cuff comment is that in your third shot I don't think the glass got enough light. I'd put at least a small gap between the two bottles to let some light through from behind. You're shots definitely give me the impression you live well :D
Ken, good mornning.
Everybody lives well when one is Healthy !
Yes, at the moment, my wife, my suns, the rest of familly and myself, we live well.:thumb
I wish your familly and yourself much Health also.:D

The funny thing is:
Theses bottles are not mines. They belong to my cousin who came to give me hand. The liquid (no, not liquid air because it is not under pressure) is NOT whisky.:rofl It's apple juice. The same from the other shots that I poured into the bottle and then into the glass.:rofl

The photos with the dark background are missing.
I hope to shoot them untill the end of the month.

Thank you for commenting. :D
:thumb

[Antonio Correia]

...This is a classy look; I like it...

Thank you Ken. I feel good if you like my shots. :D
I must try again. :D:thumb

[Nikolai]

Hey Nik.
...
-Jon
Great series, thank you! :thumb

I like the "pouring light" idea!

The tanqueray shot with three (snooted) lights an reflector is also great, very nice lighting effect.
Nice setup, too. :clap

One of the goals of our classes is to show that the most gorgeous shots do not necessarily require $100K worth of equipment. :deal

[SloYerRoll]

One of the goals of our classes is to show that the most gorgeous shots do not necessarily require $100K worth of equipment. :deal
try everything you saw was lit w/ under 350USD of gear :wink

[SloYerRoll]

A cold one is always welcome...

http://Pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/184068078-L.jpg


I welcome comments or criticisms.:thumb

Hey Pathfinder,

Take this w/ a grain of salt since your photog skills way surpass mine..
Try putting a glass like this in the freezer for about a half hour before you shoot it. It will make the bottle really sweat and give that oh so drinkable look!

All the best!

-Jon

[Nikolai]

Hey Pathfinder,

Take this w/ a grain of salt since your photog skills way surpass mine..
Try putting a glass like this in the freezer for about a half hour before you shoot it. It will make the bottle really sweat and give that oh so drinkable look!

All the best!

-Jon

The only gotcha is to handle it with an extreme care and do not touch the surface. In case of beer bottle it's relatively easy though, since you usually can handle it by the lid alone.
And you also need to act F*A*S*T, so have everything ready.
If possible, have a few spares, so you can reshoot. ANd the best part - you can drink them all later! :barb

[LiquidAir]

The only gotcha is to handle it with an extreme care and do not touch the surface. In case of beer bottle it's relatively easy though, since you usually can handle it by the lid alone.
And you also need to act F*A*S*T, so have everything ready.
If possible, have a few spares, so you can reshoot. ANd the best part - you can drink them all later! :barb

The way I've done this it to get everying set up with a warm stand in. Once you are ready to go, swap bottles and shoot away. If you can get a small enough aperture to shoot at 1/4 power or so, that will let you capture more images and the bottle thaws. The glasses I was shooting for LPS#1 were brutal that way because they didn't have the thermal mass of liquid inside. They would frost up and thaw over a period of about 90 seconds.

[Nikolai]

The way I've done this it to get everying set up with a warm stand in. Once you are ready to go, swap bottles and shoot away. If you can get a small enough aperture to shoot at 1/4 power or so, that will let you capture more images and the bottle thaws. The glasses I was shooting for LPS#1 were brutal that way because they didn't have the thermal mass of liquid inside. They would frost up and thaw over a period of about 90 seconds.

Ditto. Imagine how much trouble I had, having the glasses in front of the active fireplace (http://nik.smugmug.com/gallery/2621181/1/138326450/Large) (also LPS#1)

[pathfinder]

Hey Pathfinder,

Take this w/ a grain of salt since your photog skills way surpass mine..
Try putting a glass like this in the freezer for about a half hour before you shoot it. It will make the bottle really sweat and give that oh so drinkable look!

All the best!

-Jon

Thanks, Jon, I'll keep that in mind for my next effort:thumb

[SloYerRoll]

Thanks to Nikolai and LiquidAir on setting up this new assignment thread. While some of this stuff seems tedious. These are the fundamentals to lighting and can really help any photographer take better shots even when they aren't using a flash. It opens your eyes to how things are lit even by ambient, and how sometimes taking one step to the left or right can dramatically change the outcome of a picture. Even when I'm not shooting, I still see how everything is lit and think about how I can make it better w/ a few strobes. (w/ the help of a few other photography mentors as well)

It's not small task taking something like this on since you have to have an experts knowledge to go into these photos and disect them to help aspiring photographers take better shots.

Thanks guys.
Very cool.:thumb

[Nikolai]

Thanks to Nikolai and LiquidAir on setting up this new assignment thread. While some of this stuff seems tedious. These are the fundamentals to lighting and can really help any photographer take better shots even when they aren't using a flash. It opens your eyes to how things are lit even by ambient, and how sometimes taking one step to the left or right can dramatically change the outcome of a picture. Even when I'm not shooting, I still see how everything is lit and think about how I can make it better w/ a few strobes. (w/ the help of a few other photography mentors as well)

It's not small task taking something like this on since you have to have an experts knowledge to go into these photos and disect them to help aspiring photographers take better shots.

Thanks guys.
Very cool.:thumb
You're most certainly welcome, I'm very glad you're enjoying this. :clap
And of course, we're all lucky to have light gurus like Ken around, otherwise this whole thing would not be possible! :deal :bow

[Antonio Correia]

Thanks to Nikolai and LiquidAir on setting up this new assignment thread. While some of this stuff seems tedious. These are the fundamentals to lighting and can really help any photographer take better shots even when they aren't using a flash. It opens your eyes to how things are lit even by ambient, and how sometimes taking one step to the left or right can dramatically change the outcome of a picture. Even when I'm not shooting, I still see how everything is lit and think about how I can make it better w/ a few strobes. (w/ the help of a few other photography mentors as well)

It's not small task taking something like this on since you have to have an experts knowledge to go into these photos and disect them to help aspiring photographers take better shots.

Thanks guys.
Very cool.:thumb


:agree :D :thumb

[Nikolai]

:agree :D :thumb
Thanks, Antonio! :thumb

[dlscott56]

Thanks to Nikolai and LiquidAir on setting up this new assignment thread. While some of this stuff seems tedious. These are the fundamentals to lighting and can really help any photographer take better shots even when they aren't using a flash. It opens your eyes to how things are lit even by ambient, and how sometimes taking one step to the left or right can dramatically change the outcome of a picture. Even when I'm not shooting, I still see how everything is lit and think about how I can make it better w/ a few strobes. (w/ the help of a few other photography mentors as well)

It's not small task taking something like this on since you have to have an experts knowledge to go into these photos and disect them to help aspiring photographers take better shots.

Thanks guys.
Very cool.:thumb

:agree:clap:thumb

[Nikolai]

:agree:clap:thumb Thanks, Dave! :thumb

[Snakeroot]

This is my first time posting ever as a Smugger :) I really like the idea of weekly and monthly assignments! I'm very excited to participate!

I've been trying to make time to do this assignment for a couple of weeks now and it just hasn't happened until today. Unfortunately I need more darkness than what is available at the moment. I'm picking up a lot of reflections from doorways and curtains. I'll (hopefully) try again tonight when it's darker.

Here's my first attempt:

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187783192-L.jpg

I think I need to flash it a few more times. It's a bit dark.

Here's a crude pic of my setup. Thanks to the previous poster for the hanger idea :)

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187783201-L.jpg

[Snakeroot]

Here's a few other attempts using a different setup.


http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187783218-M.jpg


http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187783230-S.jpg


http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187783253-S.jpg


http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187783263-M.jpg


For this one I used 2 tv trays, a black box, a package of toilet paper to hold the box up :thumb , a party strobe light with a plastic bag over the front, reflective colored plastic stuff (not sure what you call it) to put inside the mug, tripod, camera, laser light and remote trigger. Again, it's not dark enough... I'm going to have to try again when it's dark outside.

[Nikolai]

Thank you for joining us!

I agree, you first attempt is way dark.
In fact, if you check the book Ken mentioned, Glass shooting almost always involves some carefully arranged space behind the bg, and the bg should be always small enough just to cover the frame. In this sense, your second setup is much better, so are the results. :thumb

[SloYerRoll]

Welcome to dgrin Snakeroot! Very cool jumping in the deep end!
While Liquid Air is definately the resident expert and all his comments superseed mine. I have a few things that might help you to really get that portfolio shot.

I won't ping on the ambient light since you know about it. I'm looking forward to seeing how your shots come out when you can control that.

That party light is way to intense. Try backing that light away and increasing the size of the difuser your using. Remember it's the relative size of the light to subject that matters. If I have a big ol 8' soft box lighting me, but it's 60 feet away. It's like I'm using a speedlight at point blank range. Make sense?

Also try turning the mug different ways so your specular highlights aren't on the handle of the mug as much. Right now they are relecting off the mug and reflecting through the glass in the handle as well to create a double dose of light.

You are lighting on two table tops as well. This gives you allot of lighting angle diversity. Try seperating the tables a bit and lighting your mug from underneath. Then move the mug in relation to the bottom light around. Just pay w/ it. If your blue floor is not strong enough to hold the mug. Cut out a circle in some cardboard and place your floor then mug on that. This also gives you even more ways to control the light .

By the angle of your tripod. It looks like your camera is set up in landscape and your background is set up for portrait. What is really essential in shooting these shots is that the black background (please refer to LiquidAir's first few posts or the book he mentions) should ONLY take up the frame of the shot. What this means is that once you have your shot composed. You shuld be able to either zoom out just a tad (or back your camera up if your using a prime lens) and the top, left and right sides of the background should all have an equal space gap between the outer edge of the background and the frame of your veiwfinder. This doesn't need to be gnats a$$ perfect since your learning the principal. But you should try to get it reasonably close.

Since your using mostly ambient light for this setup. You can also light your background w/ a flashlight to get some cool gradient lighting effects in your shots as well. The only trouble w/ doing this is the color tempuratures are usually off. THis can be a good thing though from a creative standpoint.

If any of this doesn't make sense to you. Feel free to ask. If you asked me to light a bottle for a shot a year ago. I would have just popped up my on board flash on the camera:huh

Very cool work w/ what you have.
Look forward to seeing your next round!

[Snakeroot]

Welcome to dgrin Snakeroot! Very cool jumping in the deep end!
While Liquid Air is definately the resident expert and all his comments superseed mine. I have a few things that might help you to really get that portfolio shot.

I won't ping on the ambient light since you know about it. I'm looking forward to seeing how your shots come out when you can control that.

That party light is way to intense. Try backing that light away and increasing the size of the difuser your using. Remember it's the relative size of the light to subject that matters. If I have a big ol 8' soft box lighting me, but it's 60 feet away. It's like I'm using a speedlight at point blank range. Make sense?

Also try turning the mug different ways so your specular highlights aren't on the handle of the mug as much. Right now they are relecting off the mug and reflecting through the glass in the handle as well to create a double dose of light.

You are lighting on two table tops as well. This gives you allot of lighting angle diversity. Try seperating the tables a bit and lighting your mug from underneath. Then move the mug in relation to the bottom light around. Just pay w/ it. If your blue floor is not strong enough to hold the mug. Cut out a circle in some cardboard and place your floor then mug on that. This also gives you even more ways to control the light .

By the angle of your tripod. It looks like your camera is set up in landscape and your background is set up for portrait. What is really essential in shooting these shots is that the black background (please refer to LiquidAir's first few posts or the book he mentions) should ONLY take up the frame of the shot. What this means is that once you have your shot composed. You shuld be able to either zoom out just a tad (or back your camera up if your using a prime lens) and the top, left and right sides of the background should all have an equal space gap between the outer edge of the background and the frame of your veiwfinder. This doesn't need to be gnats a$$ perfect since your learning the principal. But you should try to get it reasonably close.

Since your using mostly ambient light for this setup. You can also light your background w/ a flashlight to get some cool gradient lighting effects in your shots as well. The only trouble w/ doing this is the color tempuratures are usually off. THis can be a good thing though from a creative standpoint.

If any of this doesn't make sense to you. Feel free to ask. If you asked me to light a bottle for a shot a year ago. I would have just popped up my on board flash on the camera:huh

Very cool work w/ what you have.
Look forward to seeing your next round!



Ugh! I just typed a long reply and inadvertantly lost it... hate it when that happens :pissed


ANYways... thanks for the comments! I appreciate you taking the time.
I only wish I had read them BEFORE I shot tonight :D

After looking at my pics from tonight, I came to the same conclusion that you did in that the strobe is way too strong. I'll have to figure out how to MacGuyver a better setup.

Although I didn't get any shots that I'm really proud of tonight, it was a learning experience. Lesson one is you guys make this look really easy :thumb However, it is anything BUT easy :) You all are very talented!

I am shooting in landscape because I have a cheapo tripod that only allows me to shoot in landscape. (I'm still having a hard time shelling out so much $$ for a tripod :D But one day I'll get over that!) I'll try and setup a landscape shot using the background correctly as you pointed out and see if I have any better success.

Thanks again for the feedback! I'm here to learn!

Here are the 3 "best" *cough* from tonight... I thought the bottle and wine glass turned out well until I got it on the computer. The label is clear, but the sides of the glass are blurred. I was kinda bummed about that. Not that it doesn't have any other imperfections (t-shirt on table top doesn't look so great in that lighting, but I can't find anything else that will work).


http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187952222-S.jpg


http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187947492-S.jpg

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/187947548-S.jpg

[SloYerRoll]

the strobe is way too strong. I'll have to figure out how to MacGuyver a better setup.

Try putting a piece of plain ol notebook paper in between your difuser and the light. If that isn't enough. Try a second sheet, then a third...

Lesson one is you guys make this look really easy :thumb However, it is anything BUT easy :) You all are very talented!
Thank you, but in quicker time than you realize. You will 'get it' and you'll be snapping away w/ like a champ. There's an old adage, "smooth is slow, and slow is fast". It means take your time, paying attention to the details. So when you do pull the trigger. You know you nailed it!

(I'm still having a hard time shelling out so much $$ for a tripod :D But one day I'll get over that!) Here's a link (http://www.adorama.com/SLP500DX.html) to a great tripod that really gets the job done. It's a mid range tripod. But I guarantee you'll get many years of use out of it. (129USD from Adorama) Another great thing about it that it extends all the way to 70+"!

I'll try and setup a landscape shot using the background correctly as you pointed out and see if I have any better success.I can tell you before you even shoot your sucess rate will be MUCH higher if you do this.

(Thanks again for the feedback! I'm here to learn! We all are here for the same. Even the pro's can get knowledge form the rooks sometimes.

Here are the 3 "best" *cough* from tonight...
Getting better!
Try getting using a glass w/ some curves. Curves are always more apealing (read sexy) to the eyes.
Also you may want to try getting rid of the filler in the mug. Learn how to light this beast called glass then get creative (which I can tell you already are)

Best of luck, and please stick w/ it. Once you nail a few. It's SO worth it!

-Jon

[LiquidAir]

(t-shirt on table top doesn't look so great in that lighting, but I can't find anything else that will work).


I am pretty busy at the moment so I'll try to get back to you with more thorough comments, but I thought I would jump on this because it is a tricky bit of dark field lighting. It can be very hard keep the suface the bottle is sitting on pure black. Here are some ideas:

Keep the camera low so that the point of view is parallel with the table surface. That way you get the full bottle, but the surface doesn't show in the shot.

Put the bottle on a small pedestal and make sure the front of the pedestal is in the shadow.

Use a reflective surface. I use a sheet of black acrylic, but you can also use a mirror. A reflective surface will take on the same color as your background.

Keep your light source low so less light falls on the table surface.

Get a yard of deep pile black velvet at the local craft store.

Make sure your surface cloth is flat so creases and shadows don't show. I often iron my backdrops.

[Snakeroot]

Try putting a piece of plain ol notebook paper in between your difuser and the light. If that isn't enough. Try a second sheet, then a third...

Paper... so simple, but yet I didn't think of that :)


Thank you, but in quicker time than you realize. You will 'get it' and you'll be snapping away w/ like a champ. There's an old adage, "smooth is slow, and slow is fast". It means take your time, paying attention to the details. So when you do pull the trigger. You know you nailed it!


Here's a link (http://www.adorama.com/SLP500DX.html) to a great tripod that really gets the job done. It's a mid range tripod. But I guarantee you'll get many years of use out of it. (129USD from Adorama) Another great thing about it that it extends all the way to 70+"!


Thanks for the link! I think I'll put that on my Christmas list (my wife's one of those early shoppers :) )


Best of luck, and please stick w/ it. Once you nail a few. It's SO worth it!

-Jon

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm hoping to try a few more shots tonight. I'm not finding any good candidates for bottles though :( I'll keep lookin'.

[Snakeroot]

I am pretty busy at the moment so I'll try to get back to you with more thorough comments, but I thought I would jump on this because it is a tricky bit of dark field lighting. It can be very hard keep the suface the bottle is sitting on pure black. Here are some ideas:

Keep the camera low so that the point of view is parallel with the table surface. That way you get the full bottle, but the surface doesn't show in the shot.

Put the bottle on a small pedestal and make sure the front of the pedestal is in the shadow.

Use a reflective surface. I use a sheet of black acrylic, but you can also use a mirror. A reflective surface will take on the same color as your background.

Keep your light source low so less light falls on the table surface.

Get a yard of deep pile black velvet at the local craft store.

Make sure your surface cloth is flat so creases and shadows don't show. I often iron my backdrops.

Thanks for taking the time! If I get the chance to shoot tonight, I'll try and approach this differently than I did before and try to get a better grip on the lighting. I'll keep your suggestions in mind when I set it up.

[Snakeroot]

Well, I couldn't find a "sexier" bottle, so I gave the same ole bottle a boa :)

I tried the lighting from underneath as suggested and I really like the way the bottom is lit up. I tried different variations of flashing the front of the bottle so that the top of the bottle can be seen as well as the label on the front.

My setup just isn't cutting it. Every time I flash with the handheld flash, the reflection of ceiling fans, etc. show up on the bottle. I really need a closed environment like some of the other setups shown.

I'm not giving up on this. I'm determined to get at least one good shot :) I'll think about how to get this setup tomorrow. Hopefully I'll have time to shoot this week after work.

Here are the best 2 from tonight:

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/188370623-M.jpg




http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/188370957-M.jpg


I flashed this one once from almost directly overhead and the strobe light is underneath. I think I if can get a white background inside an enclosure and light from top and bottom that it'll turn out well.

I tore my setup apart before realizing I should have taken a picture of it. oops... it's essentially the same setup, except as suggested, I split the tv trays and put the strobe underneath, covered it with a piece of paper. I wrapped a boa around the bottle for lack of a better background. I used the same black box as before. This time I shot the bottle vertically and aligned with the box as suggested (figured out a way to do it with my tripod, although it's a real pain).

I think the white backgrounds others were using give the shot a much cleaner look. I'm not diggin' my black box background. I'll keep an eye out for a way to get a white background setup.

[Nikolai]

Well, I couldn't find a "sexier" bottle, so I gave the same ole bottle a boa :)

I'm sure Ken will pitch in, but in the mean time...
With the glass you pretty much cannot have the primary light in front of it AND have a background at the same time. YOu can have SOME light next to the camera to light up a label, but the main idea is the have it some place else - especially with the back b/g.
I'd like to mention Da Book again - it's awesome, simple and very practical. :deal

[Snakeroot]

I'm sure Ken will pitch in, but in the mean time...
With the glass you pretty much cannot have the primary light in front of it AND have a background at the same time. YOu can have SOME light next to the camera to light up a label, but the main idea is the have it some place else - especially with the back b/g.


For some reason, what you said there clicked for me Nikolai... thank you. I went back and re-read some posts and looked at some of the other setups. I think I got some pretty good results this time. There are still a few flaws... mostly with my wrinkly background, which I'm not sure how to fix. I'm not sure I can iron the material and it wasn't mine, so I was afraid to ruin it.

I COMPLETELY forgot to take a picture of my setup :( but I can describe it. I used a light small light tent (borrowed from work) as my backdrop. I put my strobe light behind the light box, so it was diffused by two sides of the tent. I put my objects up on tupperware covered by white material once, a piece of tile on a kleenex box another time, and a plastic container that my .45 rounds come in. In place of the strobe on a couple of shots, I flashed the SB-800 inside the tent.

Hopefully you guys aren't sick of me trying yet :) I scrounged for some new subjects.. I was getting sick of the same old bottle (I'm sure you were too!)

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/188929433-L.jpg


http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/188929481-M.jpg

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/188929530-M.jpg

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/188929708-M.jpg

http://stalnaker.smugmug.com/photos/188929618-M.jpg

[Nikolai]

For some reason, what you said there clicked for me Nikolai... thank you. I went back and re-read some posts and looked at some of the other setups. I think I got some pretty good results this time. There are still a few flaws... mostly with my wrinkly background, which I'm not sure how to fix. I'm not sure I can iron the material and it wasn't mine, so I was afraid to ruin it.

I can see the improvement! :thumb
The major issue now becomes the size of the BG. It should be only big enough to fill the frame. You need this to create distinctive lines in the bottle. :deal
And you can shoot the setup again later :wink

[SloYerRoll]

Don't look at these attempts as failures. Look at them as all the different ways you know how to not light glass. (If it worked for Thomas Edison, I'm sure it will work for you)

If you'd like, I'll set up my rig again and take some more detailed shots so you can really disect it. I genuinely think you don't need this though. You're starting to get the theory, now just take your time and really dial all those details in.

A LITTLE LIGHTING OT:
As a note so you can better controll your lighting:
Your Aperture controlls your strobes.
Your shutter speed controlls that ambient light.
This is one of those aha! facts that will help you take your photog skills to the next level. So memorize it now.

If you want to leave your strobe at the same power but want it to be "darker" in your shot. Adjust your Aperture to a smaller fstop (increase the f number)

Example/quiz:
3rd shot from the bottom.
I've taken the shot and everything looks good but the background is a little bit bright and I want to dim it down.

My camera settings are:
ISO 100
1/500
f27

What setting should I change to make the background darker? look below AFTER you have answered the question.




change the f stop to a higher number. This closes the diaphram that lets the light in hitting the sensor.

You can also change the distance of your strobe to subject distance. But when you do this you also change the dynamics of the light since it is now hitting the subject differently (which isn't bad. it just changes more than the ammount of light hitting y our sensor)

A LITTLE MORE LIGHTING OT:
This is also a great way to conserve your strobes power. If you have your strobe set at 1/16 and you have your aperature set to f27 (one sixteenth of your strobes capacitors energy will be used w/ each shot so in theory you can hammer on it 16 times before it has to recharge). This is equivelant to having your strobe set to 1/4 power and your aperature set at f11 in reagards to lighting. (one quarter of your strobes capacitors energy will be used w/ each shot so in theory you can pop the strobe on it 4 times before it has to recharge).
So opening up your aperature can give you more bang for your buck. In this situation it makes almost no difference what you do. But when you are in a situation where you need to get allot of shots in short periods of time. THis can make the difference between sucess and failure.

[Snakeroot]

I can see the improvement! :thumb
The major issue now becomes the size of the BG. It should be only big enough to fill the frame. You need this to create distinctive lines in the bottle. :deal
And you can shoot the setup again later :wink

I'm having space issues with that concept. However, in looking back at other people's setup's they have black material directly on the side of their subject (i.e., Antonio's trashbag and a couple others'). I wonder if I put black objects on either side of my bottles if the lines of my bottle would be better?

Thanks again for the feedback...

[Snakeroot]

Don't look at these attempts as failures. Look at them as all the different ways you know how to not light glass. (If it worked for Thomas Edison, I'm sure it will work for you)

If you'd like, I'll set up my rig again and take some more detailed shots so you can really disect it. I genuinely think you don't need this though. You're starting to get the theory, now just take your time and really dial all those details in.

A LITTLE LIGHTING OT:
As a note so you can better controll your lighting:
Your Aperture controlls your strobes.
Your shutter speed controlls that ambient light.
This is one of those aha! facts that will help you take your photog skills to the next level. So memorize it now.

If you want to leave your strobe at the same power but want it to be "darker" in your shot. Adjust your Aperture to a smaller fstop (increase the f number)

Example/quiz:
3rd shot from the bottom.
I've taken the shot and everything looks good but the background is a little bit bright and I want to dim it down.

My camera settings are:
ISO 100
1/500
f27

What setting should I change to make the background darker? look below AFTER you have answered the question.




change the f stop to a higher number. This closes the diaphram that lets the light in hitting the sensor.

You can also change the distance of your strobe to subject distance. But when you do this you also change the dynamics of the light since it is now hitting the subject differently (which isn't bad. it just changes more than the ammount of light hitting y our sensor)

A LITTLE MORE LIGHTING OT:
This is also a great way to conserve your strobes power. If you have your strobe set at 1/16 and you have your aperature set to f27 (one sixteenth of your strobes capacitors energy will be used w/ each shot so in theory you can hammer on it 16 times before it has to recharge). This is equivelant to having your strobe set to 1/4 power and your aperature set at f11 in reagards to lighting. (one half of your strobes capacitors energy will be used w/ each shot so in theory you can pop the strobe on it 2 times before it has to recharge).
So opening up your aperature can give you more bang for your buck. In this situation it makes almost no difference what you do. But when you are in a situation where you need to get allot of shots in short periods of time. THis can make the difference between sucess and failure.

It's funny that you expounded on that because I was noticing some odd things while I was shooting. I started out with the strobe on full blast, which gave me a very white background and I liked that. Then I changed bottles and I wanted to decrease the light a bit, so I thought by turning the frequency of the strobe flash down that my shots would get darker, but it actually had the opposite effect. That really surprised me.

I also switched from Aperature priority to Shutter priority and the results were not what I expected either. Since I had already used A so much and felt like I was getting the hang of changing settings, I just went back to A :)

Thanks for the deeper explanation... I'll try to get that to sink in.

[Quicklebe]

Here is one picture I did with a beer bottle. I like having a white background. However the labels are too dark. I used a diffuser in the back with two reflectors up front.

I tried to lighten the labels with a light from the front or even overhead. However this caused too many reflections that I could not control. I'd like suggestions on how to light the front of the bottle without getting the reflections.

Thanks,

Quicklebe

First picture: without pp.

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/189368913-L.jpg

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/gallery/3238035#189368913-L-LBhttp://quicklebe.smugmug.com/gallery/3238035#189368913-M-LB

Second picture: with pp to light the front of the bottle and remove some reflections.

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/189368983-L.jpg

[LiquidAir]

I think the white backgrounds others were using give the shot a much cleaner look. I'm not diggin' my black box background. I'll keep an eye out for a way to get a white background setup.

Clean black backgrounds are tough. When I first started shooting glass (for LPS#1), I spend several hours fighting with my setup and still ended up touching up the background in Photoshop. It does get easier with practice; now I can pretty consistantly hit a 0,0,0 background right out of camera.

One thing to remember is that a black paper or cardboard typically run only about 2 stops below middle grey. Since most DSLRs are sensitive to around 5 stops below middle grey, you will need to use light control to hit true black. You don't have to completely control scatter, but you do want the light on the background to be at least 3 stops darker than the light on your subject assuming you are metering for diffuse reflections. With bottles where you are metering for specular or refracted light you sometimes don't need that much control. Refracted light is almost always brighter than diffuse reflections so that case is relatively easy. The brightness of diffuse reflections depend on both the nature of your surface and how oblique the angle of incidence is. I have seen specular reflections go from maybe 2 stops darker than normal metering to about 4 stops brighter. If you have darker reflections, you have to be very careful about scatter on your background.

The best black background is actually something like a deep cardboard box. Place the box behind your subejct in a such a way that the camera is looking into the box. The box helps you in two ways: it shields your background from light scattered in the room and it places the background further from your subject which makes scatter off your subject appear darker because the light has to travel farther. You can then run your floor back into the box which tyipcally means you don't need to worry about your floor to backdrop transition because it will be too dark to be visible.

The box is is overkill for a lot of subjects. I have a good sized sheet of black felt which works quite well, but it is worth making sure the felt is held in a way that it stays smooth; folds and wrinkles will kill you. Sometimes I use black foam core which is nice because it is stiff enough to be easy to mount. However the surface of the foam core is a bit shiny so you have to watch out for specular reflections. I also use a Photoflex black/sliver lite disc (often with a mount which lets me put it on a light stand). While I find the sliver side nearly useless, the black side serves both as a handy mobile background and as an adjustable gobo.

[Nikolai]

Here is one picture I did with a beer bottle. I like having a white background. However the labels are too dark. I used a diffuser in the back with two reflectors up front.

I tried to lighten the labels with a light from the front or even overhead. However this caused too many reflections that I could not control. I'd like suggestions on how to light the front of the bottle without getting the reflections.


Thank you! I do like the second (pp) version better.:thumb

Re: labels: it is hard:deal . You have to carefully control your light, both power and angle, most likely snoot it, too. Portable strobes without modeliing lights are especially tricky in this sense, so, as Ken suggested earlier, try to experiment with the flashlight. You may also need to tune the strobe output very accurately, so you get just enough light to highlite the label, but not enough to cause you those other grievances...

[Quicklebe]

I'll have to try again with the snoots. I ended up just placing the light up and to camera right with a reflector to the left. This lit the labels at least some but left some reflections that I did not like . I did some pp to even out the colors.

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/189732217-L.jpg


Here is another which I like but it is off topic for showing the edges of a bottle.

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/189596419-L.jpg

[Nikolai]

I'll have to try again with the snoots. I ended up just placing the light up and to camera right with a reflector to the left. This lit the labels at least some but left some reflections that I did not like . I did some pp to even out the colors.

I like the first one, great job! :thumb

[SloYerRoll]

..

Total EDIT: sorry. I though you were Snakeroot. I saw Beginner Grinner and didn't look back.
:rolleyes :rolleyes
DUUUUDE! look at your first attempts compared to these! A whole other universe. THere's always room for improvement. But you are getting it!
Now I'm gonna have to shoot some more so you don't show me up :D (j/k if you show me up,. I'll just be asking you questions instead:wink )

SETUP SHOT SETUP SHOT SETUP SHOT SETUP SHOT SETUP SHOT.....

[Quicklebe]

Thanks for the feedback. I just purchased a couple of bottles of wine. One a rose and the other a chardonnay so the color will come through easier. I'll try with those later this weekend.

[Nikolai]

Thanks for the feedback. I just purchased a couple of bottles of wine. One a rose and the other a chardonnay so the color will come through easier. I'll try with those later this weekend.
Darn, my sponsor at AA would kill me :lol3

[Snakeroot]

Total EDIT: sorry. I though you were Snakeroot. I saw Beginner Grinner and didn't look back.
:rolleyes :rolleyes


LOL! I kinda wondered if that was what happened :) Don't worry, I haven't given up... just out of town. I'll amaze you... eventually :D

[Quicklebe]

Here are the wine bottles. I bought them based on the label. Typically my wife and I are box wine drinkers but I decided to purchase glass just for this.

I did some PP because I could not get rid of some reflections from the top of the bottles. For the Chardonnay, I placed two flashes left and right above the bottles. For the Rose I bounced a single light off the ceiling from behind the camera.

I tried using a gobo above the wine bottles to get rid of the reflections but I could not figure out where to place to gobo correctly. I think I'll finally try a snoot but I still have trouble aiming a homemade snoot correctly.



http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/190511375-L.jpg


http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/190511430-L.jpg

[Nikolai]

Here are the wine bottles. I bought them based on the label. Typically my wife and I are box wine drinkers but I decided to purchase glass just for this.

I did some PP because I could not get rid of some reflections from the top of the bottles. For the Chardonnay, I placed two flashes left and right above the bottles. For the Rose I bounced a single light off the ceiling from behind the camera.

I tried using a gobo above the wine bottles to get rid of the reflections but I could not figure out where to place to gobo correctly. I think I'll finally try a snoot but I still have trouble aiming a homemade snoot correctly.


I like it! :thumb
Couple of things:

Watch your horizon level, both entries look a bit skewed CCW, esp. #1 :deal
I still cannot get rid of a feeling that tha bg is too large, hence the outlines are not as distinct as they could have been. :dunno
And what happened with the required setup pictures? Didn't it change even a bit? :wink :deal

[Quicklebe]

Here are some wine bottles with a dark background. I stuggled to get the background and floor dark. I ended up darkening the background in pp.

I used a stobe behind the bottle shot through a diffuser. I put the gobo on the diffuser. I noticed that I got better results if I made the gobo much taller than the wine bottle and field of view.

I do not like either of these two pictures much. Any suggestions are welcome.

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/191037681-L.jpg

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/190951164-L.jpg

Here is the set up shot

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/190951097-L.jpg

[Nikolai]

Here are some wine bottles with a dark background. I stuggled to get the background and floor dark. I ended up darkening the background in pp.

I used a stobe behind the bottle shot through a diffuser. I put the gobo on the diffuser. I noticed that I got better results if I made the gobo much taller than the wine bottle and field of view.

I do not like either of these two pictures much. Any suggestions are welcome.

Here is the set up shot



Thank you! I like the setup!
I also think you got rather decent results. It seems what you need is to add a snooted direct (foreground) light for the label and maaaaybe another one on the side to get a small sparky relection. To deal with the background maybe it's worth to increase the distance between the gogo and the diffuser, i.e. keeping the gobo close and the diffuser far.

[Snakeroot]

You're not waiting until I get the first month's assignement right before you post a new one are you? :D :rofl

I will get back to it! I will!!

[Nikolai]

You're not waiting until I get the first month's assignement right before you post a new one are you? :D :rofl

I will get back to it! I will!!

Nope. We do not start on first:-)

[Antonio Correia]

This time the dark background was easy but the white one was/is very difficult for me.
I was not going to post here the white background because it is a flop, a real disaster.:cry
But on the other hand, the errors are part of the leaning process.:wink

My problem is the white balance. I am using a torch light which has a much different temperature from the flash as you can see.

Thinking of this problem I have bought an orange gell but I had no time to prepare it yet. However I decided to go ahead and here is the disaster.:cry

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/192821303-M.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/192802355-L-1.jpg
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/192826418-M.jpg http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/192835952-L.jpg

[Quicklebe]

Here is the wine bottle with a dark background and a snoot added. I also placed a blue light on the background. I adjusted the brightness levels in Capture NX. Also I eliminated a reflection in the upper half of the bottle that I could not get rid of.

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/192782182-L.jpg

Here is the setup shot. I used a diffuser between the back light and the gobo. I had to hand hold the diffuser so it is not in this shot. Also the snoot on the label is from overhead. The snoot is hard to see in the picture.

http://quicklebe.smugmug.com/photos/192913679-L.jpg

[Nikolai]

This time the dark background was easy but the white one was/is very difficult for me.
I was not going to post here the white background because it is a flop, a real disaster.:cry
But on the other hand, the errors are part of the leaning process.:wink

My problem is the white balance. I am using a torch light which has a much different temperature from the flash as you can see.

Thinking of this problem I have bought an orange gell but I had no time to prepare it yet. However I decided to go ahead and here is the disaster.:cry

Antonio, I like it much better! :thumb
There are stilll some issues with the evenness of the white b/g, and I also think that labels in the dark version could be lit better, but it's a definite improvement!:clap