Why should I stay with Smugmug for Weddings?

[photogmomma]

Consider this Andi's frustration post. And my wishlist, which I know repeats much of what other people have said.... But I feel the need to get it out.

Having done a few portrait shoots, I can say that, for the most part, I'm very happy with SM. The quality, as always, rocks. And the clients fine ordering relatively easy to do.

But having done my third wedding (this one for my sister-in-law, who rocks), i have found SM to be less than perfect. What would I do to improve things? See my list....

FAVORITES for customers - With upwards of 450 photos to look at in 8 different galleries (getting ready, wedding, reception, etc.), my clients have a VERY hard time trying to figure out what to buy. Sure, I know many people are going to say "cut down on the number of photos", but it's hard when you've done the rehearsal, that dinner, and all the wedding day activities. And they're family and you KNOW whow and what you're looking at. What I want is for my customer to be able to make a "favorites" list - or several of them! - that they can continue to add/delete to/from as they'd like. And if they want, they can let me see it. Why? Point #2...
BOOKS - Since SM doesn't offer books, I'm forced to do this through another vendor. And because my bride is 4 hours away, I'm having to make her add comments to each of the photos she'd like. And, based on comments so far, she's going to request about 250 photos. (I'm still working out books so no comments on how I did it, please! LOL!) Have you EVER sat down and made 250 comments? OMG! It's a complete pain! You have to enter a code EVERY time and it takes forever. Needless to say, she's very unhappy with this flow. (As am I.) Favorites would help.
PACKAGES - I have been hearing rumors of packages forever (at least a year... "stay tuned" :scratch I have and still don't see any!). This would be an IMMENSE thing for my business - both portraits AND weddings. Wow! It would ROCK since just about every one of my client's asks about this!
COUPONS - I would love to be able to give coupons to customers that have been especially great to me. Or put them in the paper to track where they are coming from. Or my magazine ads. Or whatever. Or maybe I give a coupon to the Bride and Groom for a discount, but can keep the prices standard for the rest of the people ordering. You get the idea....
KEYWORDS AVAILABLE TO CUSTOMER WHEN PW/HIDDEN - I spent a long time (yes, dumb of me not to read) adding keywords to photo on my site for a customer. Worked GREAT for me. But not so great for her - it wasn't visible! Ugh! (I had to unprotect it for the time being - not a great option.) I would LOVE to have a check box for that gallery saying "share keywords" "yes/no".And a few others, for giggles and grins:

CUSTOMIZABLE EMAILS - I understand that when you send a link to someone using the "share photos" option, that you can't customize the look/feel of that email. Seems almost like a no-brainer to have that tool at a pros fingertips.
PRICING PRESETS - Instead of having to set up a new gallery for each of my pricing presets, I would love to have presets in a drop down just like you see in customizing a gallery. Why? Because it's SO much cleaner. Better yet, a special table-like matrix a la Excel would be even better! I could see VERY easily what my pricing is.
ADD TO ORDER - As a thank you for some of my larger orders, I would LOVE to either remove the cost for a certain print or ADD a new print at no cost to them. Sort of a "surprise! thanks!". Sure, i can order and send it to them, but I don't always have their address - and that costs extra shipping (and burns more carbon!).So where am I going with all this? Based on my level of frustration with this particular wedding, I'm starting to look around at other options for my next wedding in September. I have spend FAR MORE time doing silly little things than I should have to because of how things are structured with SM.

And I need you to convince me not to take my wedding business elsewhere. (Sure, I'm not a bajillion dollar pro like some, but I expect that after I take Shay's class in Denver, I will be! :rofl )

(One thing I should add is that I do love SM. I will keep my personal site here and I'll probably keep my portraits here unless I find a better solution.)

A frustrated Pro Smugmugger.

[I Simonius]

Consider this Andi's frustration post. And my wishlist,

hey those all sound like GREAT suggestions!

[urbanaries]

While I am happy with smugmug has afforded me in terms of website presence (albeit not without a surprise learning curve in web development), as I turn the corner in my business toward higher end demographics and weddings, some basic needs off the top of my head not being currently fulfilled by smugmug...

Book creation and ordering capability
CDs directly to consumers
cobranded print packaging
gift certs/codes/packages
cards/announcements
favoriting/custom user experience.

It seems the days of being all things to all people might be coming to a crossroads. Is truth simply that the cash cow for SM is big volume sales of the 19-cent prints, and business decisions sustaining standard accounts and pro accounts are just not as profitable? Like Andi, I am shopping for other services.

And to be fair, neither of us are big volume photographers. We represent the "just starting out/part timers" crowd. I can't imagine how smugmug could meet my needs if and when I go full time, and at my target demographic.

If the answer is no, pro accounts are not a top priority, that's completely fair, and I respect Smugmug's business model. But as it stands, for portrait photographers who generate and sell large volumes of prints, smugmug seems to be a square peg. (as opposed to fine art photographers, who don't have the consumer product demands as us "sell outs" :)...I imagine smugmug meets their needs very well). Are the $30 accounts so outrageously outnumbering the pro accounts that the economy of scale is insurmountable? I am very curious, as I have been with smugmug ten months and have sold 1,012 prints as of today. Maybe that's a small number in the smugmug scale of things. I don't have a point of reference.

ETA: it seems the way to go with books these days is collaboration. Flickr and Blurb are really maximizing their partnership, Pictage and Leather Craftsmen....let's grab ASUKA or Graphistudio before someone else does! ;)

[Andy]

Ya'll have some great ideas here :clap

I think you'll be pleased with some things we've got in the works. I won't be letting on, no no no, but trust me we hear you!

Thanks for taking the time to let us know how important this stuff is to you guys :bow

[I Simonius]

e.

ETA: it seems the way to go with books these days is collaboration. Flickr and Blurb are really maximizing their partnership, Pictage and Leather Craftsmen....let's grab ASUKA or Graphistudio before someone else does! ;)

definitely dig the teming up with book-guys idea! However as the POTN book team discovered when they went with 'Blurb' shipping costs abroad can be prohibitive - goota check out the end user business experience as well as SM's business perspective with them:wink

[urbanaries]

definitely dig the teming up with book-guys idea! However as the POTN book team discovered when they went with 'Blurb' shipping costs abroad can be prohibitive - goota check out the end user business experience as well as SM's business perspective with them:wink

graphistudio is in italy....:thumb

are there book producers in the UK we should offer up?

[I Simonius]

graphistudio is in italy....:thumb

are there book producers in the UK we should offer up?

There may well be but I have had no experience of them to date...from the POTN book building experience I would say the only way to tell is to order the same book from all of them

As it stands I haven't really had time to check out the UK options. Probably best to check with the POTN book team as thereare a few UK guys who might have already gone through it. I'm still up to my ears in house stuff for a little while yet ( nearly got the kitchen floor tiling right - but not quite..:bash )

Might give it a look nopw I've had the prompt once the house refurb is finished:rolleyes

[photogmomma]

Ya'll have some great ideas here :clap

I think you'll be pleased with some things we've got in the works. I won't be letting on, no no no, but trust me we hear you!

Thanks for taking the time to let us know how important this stuff is to you guys :bow

Andy, having worked for a major software company that also had internet based solutions for many years, I understand how careful you have to be to manage your customer's expectations. But getting a "stay tuned" answer each time gets frustrating.

Don't get me wrong, I don't need to hear you say, "Andi! We'll have those books and favorites online by August 1st and I'll be happy create your first book for you!"

But it would be nice to hear something like, "We hear you loud and clear. We have some new features and functionality that will be geared directly towards the portrait and wedding professional photographers and we expect it to be released within the next 6 months." (And if it's released in 4 months or 4 weeks, you've exceeeded your expectations with me!)

By hearing something like this, I know that you're going to be addressing things that I'm interested in. But by hearing "I think you'll be pleased with some things we've got in the works. I won't be letting on, no no no, but trust me we hear you!", I have no clue what to expect OR when to expect it OR even if it will impact my wedding business!

I'm really not trying to be a pain. I'm just trying to make my life easier for the next two weddings I have booked!

Thanks for letting me get it all out! :D (As if you had a choice. LOL!)

[photogmomma]

It seems the days of being all things to all people might be coming to a crossroads. Is truth simply that the cash cow for SM is big volume sales of the 19-cent prints, and business decisions sustaining standard accounts and pro accounts are just not as profitable? Like Andi, I am shopping for other services.

....

If the answer is no, pro accounts are not a top priority, that's completely fair, and I respect Smugmug's business model. But as it stands, for portrait photographers who generate and sell large volumes of prints, smugmug seems to be a square peg.

And I have to reiterate what Lynne said... If you aren't planning on developing in the direction of the wedding and portrait photographer, I completely understand and respect that. But I'd really like to know so I can make decisions based on that.

Thanks for giving us a forum to get this out.

[Scott_Quier]

Andy,

I'm going to have to climb on the band-wagon with Andi and Lynne on a couple of points:
I also understand about managing customer expectations, not over-promising, and making sure that everything that is actually stated is met. But, the lowest common denomintor of this mentality is that nothing is said. This results in
"Stay Tuned - you'll like what you see" without giving any idea of what sorts of things are in the offing. It's very difficult to do any real planning and/or make business decisions based on this sort of very non-answer.
I recently stumbled across a change that is in the offing - the changes to the shopping cart, but the only because I was trying to track down a post someone else had made. The title grabbed my interest. Is there a place to look for these sorts of announcements?
Coupons/packages/virtual galleries (which would solve one of Andi's problems - the favorites)/teaming with publishers; These are all things that would be so cool to have.
Virtual galleries (VG) - this would solve so many small, irritating, and time consuming problems.
Easing customer experience. The 450 photo scenario to which Andi is referring. I got around that by grouping photos into galleries. One for the preparation, one for the ceremony, one for the portraits, one for the reception special events, etc
Front page slide shows - as implemented now, I have to copy photos from one gallery to another.
It would so much easier to just indicate that a VG is comprised of this image and this one and that one.
Removing an image from the VB would be nothing more than removing the reference from the list.
Version 1 of the interface could be as crude as developing a list of URLs for each of the images to be used.
I'll grant I'm glossing over the finer points of the implementation and this would mean that this would have to be a customizable feature --> so it would be Pro/Power account user feature only. That's probably where it belongs anyway.
Any Pro/Power user who wants the VG would also already implemented other customizations - little worry about learning curver there.
How about the ability to order prints of an entire gallery. The last time I did this (some 200 images), it took me more the 30 minutes to go through the process. Most of that time was waiting for all the thumbs to download each time. Another significant time was spent waiting on the server to render the pages, before the first bit of HTML response was sent back down the wire.

[Dbl]

I agree with the others on this one. Not giving us any idea of a time frame for some of these ideas does nothing for a small business owner. I will use one quick example, coupons and packages. June of 2005 and there are earlier posts than that. http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=13042&highlight=photo+packages Over two years of we're working on it?

How long do we continue to accept "we're working on it, and its on the radar". As others have mentioned we don't need the actual date but a realistic time frame seems like a logical response so we can do some planning for our business growth.

I honestly can't imagine that many successful vendors would get away with this type of response with their customers.

[photogmomma]

Easing customer experience. The 450 photo scenario to which Andi is referring. I got around that by grouping photos into galleries. One for the preparation, one for the ceremony, one for the portraits, one for the reception special events, etc
Front page slide shows - as implemented now, I have to copy photos from one gallery to another.
It would so much easier to just indicate that a VG is comprised of this image and this one and that one.
Removing an image from the VB would be nothing more than removing the reference from the list.Just a note - I actually break my galleries up the same way (by event during the wedding weekend), but that doesn't help someone unless they want to add the photo to their cart, delete them, add others - that's the only real way to create a VG, as you're mentioning.....

Also, to have a slideshow be more dynamic, you can always refer to keywords rather than using a gallery. My URL, for example, for the slideshow is currently http://www.tippiepics.com/keyword/spring (and it's about to change) and all I do is change out the keyword in the different galleries and then update the URL in my Footer in customization... (Thought it might be helpful!)

Thanks for all your other comments. I am glad to see I'm not the only one feeling like this. :D

[jenna16]

I agree with the others on this one. Not giving us any idea of a time frame for some of these ideas does nothing for a small business owner. I will use one quick example, coupons and packages. June of 2005 and there are earlier posts than that. http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=13042&highlight=photo+packages Over two years of we're working on it?

How long do we continue to accept "we're working on it, and its on the radar". As others have mentioned we don't need the actual date but a realistic time frame seems like a logical response so we can do some planning for our business growth.

I honestly can't imagine that many successful vendors would get away with this type of response with their customers.

I too find this policy not only ridiculous and the defense of it is plain silly. The idea that a small family company with a couple dozen employees (I think) has a strict company policy that can't be changed is not credible to me. Hold a meeting and decide to change the policy! There are no shareholder meetings, etc. Perhaps there is a board, but I just don't buy the idea that this so-called policy is written in stone like the Magna Carta. SM needs to demonstrate a little security in its ability to meet some basic development deadlines, out of respect for the 1000s of people who base their businesses on SM's technology. I hope SM decides to rethink this policy soon.

[Andy]

I too find this policy not only ridiculous and the defense of it is plain silly.
Ouch, I'm so sorry you find our policy to be ridiculous and us silly for trying to meet expectations of our customers.

See, if we told you "Feature X will be out on September 25th" and we missed it, because of something beyond our control (or within our control), we'd be slammed by our pros.

We have a strong, long record of innovating and enhancing our complete product offering.

[GJMPhoto]

Ouch, I'm so sorry you find our policy to be ridiculous and us silly for trying to meet expectations of our customers.

See, if we told you "Feature X will be out on September 25th" and we missed it, because of something beyond our control (or within our control), we'd be slammed by our pros.


Andy,
You're not getting the point...you're reacting to something that's NOT being said (and more importanty NOT reacting to what IS being said).

Every software company has a pipeline of enhancements and fixes. They are shared with their customers to allow them to plan and make their own business decisions. Some of their lists have dates (often identified by month, quarter, or even year). Some are not about dates at all: I've seen: Gold, Silver, Bronze rated or "Must Have Soon, Want to Have, Nice to Have, If Time Permits".

Managing your customer's expectations does not absolve you from having a responsibility to SET them at some point! It is not MANAGING expectations to simply not set any! "Don't expect much and everything will work out!" is a lousy model when it comes to product development...you lose customers that way.

When people are giving you feedback and suggestions, you HAVE to acknowledge them and give them a sense of position in the queue. It's not about a hard date, it's about an understanding of the request and a prioritization of that request.

I suggest you have an open list of considered enhancements WITH their associated priorities. If you don't want, don't put a release number or a date that you can be held to, but at a minimum, provide an open indication on where our ideas are and how they stack up against the other ideas.

BTW: There's another benefit for SM: Providing visibility to your pipeline of enhancements will give customers an opportunity to weigh in on requirements, ideas, potential solutions, etc. This may help SM development from becoming a bottleneck for solutions by opening up to the collective brain power of your customer base.

Don't be defensive...no one is asking you to commit to dates. The "Get It?" point is about undertanding of the problem, prioritization, and status.

We have a strong, long record of innovating and enhancing our complete product offering.
Sorry...but this doesn't pass the "So What" test. It's not about trust...it's about information flow. Open up...we don't bite :D

- Gary.

[Poseidon]

There are some fantastic ideas in this thread. Overall I have been very happy with my Smugmug experience, and my return on investment has been about 10 to 1, so how can I complain right?

Well, I REALLY like the idea of being able to order an entire gallery! I have had to go elsewhere to get 400 4x6's made of a particular gallery that was already loaded to SM. If there was an option to order that gallery I certainly would have! (This has to be a relatively simple fix right?)

Allowing my clients to add their favorites to a personal cart would be awesome. Especially if there are photos from multiple galleries.

Overall I am pleased with SM I have always been, but if SM waits to long, or is just not able to add certain asked for features, I am afraid the people will go elsewere.

I know the Tom guy at Pictage is pretty tenacious in trying to sign me up!!! LOL! (I can't say I'll switch, because I have developed a comfortable work flow here, and they are EXPENSIVE!)

[xxclixxx]

My 2 Cents

Cent #1: I would LOVE to have keywords with passworded galleries. I take photos of kids at Church events, which I can't let anyone have access to. But I want parents to be able to click their child's name and see all the photos of them. Instead I have to tell them good luck..

Cent #2: I also feel its a bit difficult doing various things that should be simple. I like smugmug because I don't have to worry about sending the prints, but when it comes time to customize I'm very limited. I feel like the work is being shoved over to me.. Rather than being able to customize templates, I'm expected to learn advanced javascript and css hacks and to know all the id names and classes and spend hours searching for answers trying to get the site to look how I want.

Tim

PS. I don't view the photos all the time, but lately I've noticed the site loading pretty quick compared to last time I thought about it. I was going to suggest PRO accounts being on a seperate, faster system but it seems the slow problem of before is gone.

[Andy]

Andy,
You're not getting the point..
OK So, if I'm hearing you right, the discussions had here on Dgrin about features we've yet to release (e.g., Stock Photos, SmugMungous, and more) are not enough - you'd like to see that in "list" form or some other structure? Perhaps it's a matter of cataloging stuff that's already public, in a better fashion.

Tell me if I'm on the right track, okay?

[Andy]

but when it comes time to customize I'm very limited.
We won't leave anyone behind :thumb Make a post in the customizing forum, and shout Help! We have lots of folks, Smuggers and volunteer helpers who'd love to get you going. It's rather easy - but you have to take the first step and say what you want, and then we do it for you - and teach (if you want) along the way. Don't wait another minute!

[jchin]

Andy ... I guess I have to jump on the bandwagon as well here. So here goes my few cents.

1. COUPON CODES would be a wonderful idea, I would probably get more sales that way.

2. ORDER THIS GALLERY option would be nice, instead of having to click through the images and add them to the cart. I had to fill a wedding family's order manually through another provider when they wanted a 4x6 copy of all their photos (1100+).

3. BOOKS or MINI-ALBUMS (like those on DotPhoto) would be nice; of course it means more work for us PRO account holders, we'll probably have to pre-arrange and setup the BOOKS or MINI-ALBUMS.

4. ADD-TO-ORDER option would be nice for those of us who want to send along a free item (at our expense) to the buyer. Or give us the option of seeing the buyer's shipping address so that we can mail them a gift if we wanted to.


5. FEATURE NOTIFICATIONS ... it would be nice to get an e-mail when there is a new feature or change in the system. I've noticed that new pricing options were made available this year that I had not setup a default price in my setup.


OTHERWISE ... SmugMug has been great. :thumb I am a part-time wedding photographer and the ability for clients to order their own prints at my pre-set prices helps tremendously.

PS -- Hearing "it is in the works" and "it is on our radar" for the past 2 years is getting to sound like a broken record. Are you sure Don and his crew are working on SmugMug and not starting another venture? :wink

[GJMPhoto]

OK So, if I'm hearing you right, the discussions had here on Dgrin about features we've yet to release (e.g., Stock Photos, SmugMungous, and more) are not enough - you'd like to see that in "list" form or some other structure? Perhaps it's a matter of cataloging stuff that's already public, in a better fashion.

Tell me if I'm on the right track, okay?

A single place to find a PRIORITIZED and CATEGORIZED (as I mentioned in my previous post) list of "coming features" would be a big plus.

The biggest dissatisfaction (as I'm reading the same posts you are) is not about knowing WHEN an item is coming - It's knowing IF an item is coming! "About When" would be even nicer...but let's at least start with "IF"...a commitment to add a feature.

Something along the lines of: "Yes...we'll be working on printing books later this year...but we'll probably deliver coupons first" (or whatever) would probably make most of the posters I've read happier. As I read these posts, most people love SM...and are willing to wait...they just want to know it's worth waiting.

I could be wrong...but I don't think so...anyone else?

- Gary.

[Dbl]

SM is definitely not getting it. Have you read the responses in this thread?



How long do we continue to accept "we're working on it, and its on the radar". As others have mentioned we don't need the actual date but a realistic time frame seems like a logical response so we can do some planning for our business growth.

How does your response to any of these questions,



Ouch, I'm so sorry you find our policy to be ridiculous and us silly for trying to meet expectations of our customers.

See, if we told you "Feature X will be out on September 25th" and we missed it, because of something beyond our control (or within our control), we'd be slammed by our pros



make any sense what so ever? Does SM take the time to read each of these responses that people are taking the time to post? I really am at a loss here, what direction is SM headed? Even your non answers don't make a lot of sense. No one is asking for hard dates here, we are asking for information that I and obviously others firmly believe doesn't require a top secret security clearance to obtain, with some idea of when we can expect results.

Since the question above about coupons and packages has been mentioned lets look at that as an example. My previous post shows that SM has been telling us they have been "working on it" for in excess of two years. What does that tell me about SM's commitment to the issue? What can I tell my customers that are asking for these types of products? Another year, two, four, what really is it. Would it be difficult to say we plan on implementing that product in the fall of 2007. If you are having trouble with meeting that time frame communicate it to your customers and how you are trying to meet that goal and when.

This really is just plain good business. I am and always have been puzzled by SM's answer to upcoming features. What makes SM so different than any other customer orientated business? What if one of your vendors said "we are working on an upgrade to our servers, I know you are having trouble with them crashing, but we just don't comment on new upgrades to our equipment. I don't know what you should tell your customers, but we assure you it will get fixed....sometime....in the future." How would you as a company react? Would you be happy with that response with your (us) customers complaining?

I have seen responses from SM about a few make all the noise. Most of those are people like myself that are trying to conduct business for profit. Many are here daily trying to keep up with the latest problems to help insure our customers have a pain free experience. Daily users, the people that spend the most time working with SM are the very users SM says are in the minority. Is it possible that SM is unable to meet the needs of "pros" or power users and the casual user? It would seem you can't make both happy. Pros need more of a PhotoReflect, or PhotoShelter type of experience, average user doesn't.

As one who falls into both categories I can say as a casual user on my personal site I am more than happy with my SM experience. Every few months some photos go up with a glitch here or there, and I don't have customizations or sell so it works fine. And if there is a problem nothing is really lost because eventually it will work, no deadlines to meet except my own. As a business owner with a pro site I can say I have become increasingly unimpressed. Loading problems, implementation of features that don't help me sell my product, lack of implementation of products that will help me sell my product and no idea when those issues will be addressed.

Example, the other day I upload photos to a new gallery on my personal site, the up loader now has pretty green arrows pointing to the drop photos here, looks pretty not sure how it helps anyone who can't read the "drop photos here" that was always there. As a pro, for that matter as a casual user what did that do to help me? Nothing that I can see, yet I still wait for packages, Virtual galleries, a better shopping cart, etc. with no idea of when I might see any of those improvements. A new user that is shopping features among the various photo hosting sites might have no idea that some of the features that are implemented and operating at the competition might be something "on the radar" at SM. Is that in your best interest? If you listed upcoming features along with an estimated date of implementation you may grab a customer that you otherwise would not have a chance of getting.

It has become increasingly frustrating to be a pro user, not personal user, because SM refuses to give us the information we need to stay competitive and make smart business decisions on what we can offer our clients to improve our bottom line. I do hope you revisit your policy of not keeping your customers abreast of features we need to function efficiently and competitively as a business.

[Andy]

It has become increasingly frustrating to be a pro user, not personal user, because SM refuses to give us the information we need to stay competitive and make smart business decisions on what we can offer our clients to improve our bottom line. I do hope you revisit your policy of not keeping your customers abreast of features we need to function efficiently and competitively as a business.

Thanks for posting, and the great feedback. We really do like it when you tell it like it is. I wish we could tell you more. It's frustrating for us, too, believe me :)

We'll continue to talk about this, it's really great that you guys are taking the time to tell us how important it is to you.

Thanks again.

[GJMPhoto]

Thanks for posting, and the great feedback. We really do like it when you tell it like it is. I wish we could tell you more. It's frustrating for us, too, believe me :)

We'll continue to talk about this, it's really great that you guys are taking the time to tell us how important it is to you.

Thanks again.

Nothing like pouring some sugar-sweet fuel on the fire.

[caroline]

A single place to find a PRIORITIZED and CATEGORIZED (as I mentioned in my previous post) list of "coming features" would be a big plus.

The biggest dissatisfaction (as I'm reading the same posts you are) is not about knowing WHEN an item is coming - It's knowing IF an item is coming! "About When" would be even nicer...but let's at least start with "IF"...a commitment to add a feature.

Something along the lines of: "Yes...we'll be working on printing books later this year...but we'll probably deliver coupons first" (or whatever) would probably make most of the posters I've read happier. As I read these posts, most people love SM...and are willing to wait...they just want to know it's worth waiting.

I could be wrong...but I don't think so...anyone else?

- Gary.

Sorry Gary I do think you are wrong, I think it is unreasonable and niave to expect Smugmug to provide the level of information you and some others appear to be insisting upon.
My business is not wedding or event photography so my requirements are different, but if there was a certain feature I required that IS NOT available on Smugmug then I would look elsewhere or adapt to Smugmug, while hoping that it may be something that Smugmug might offer in the future.

Producing a prioritised and categorized list of forthcoming developments seems to me like opening the door to any competitiors to jump in first.

I have no wish to inflame this discussion as it is obviously something you feel very strongly about, but I did want to make a comment from "the other side of the fence". I do hope that for all concerned parties a satisfactory compromise can be reached.
With best wishes,
Caroline

[I Simonius]

another comment from the 'other side of the fence':wink

SM is as it is and when we sign up we haven't done so expecting such and such features to be additional parts of the package within any given time frame

It is one thing to lend wheight to a request for such and such a feature, quite another to demand that it's anticipated date or order of priority be published

There are many other companies that don't divulge things in the pipeline(Canon , Apple:wink ) and presumably with good reason (discuss:wink )

I can understand the frustration about and the arguement for the need to have published info on things that affect ones business but it's pertinant to remember that SM is not defaulting on any promise to do so and one cannot automatically expect ( no matter how strong the reasoning) that one compay fit its business strategy in with anothers' just because the other deems it necessary.

Yes were are SMs customers but the service they provide IS what they provide and what we subscribed to, not the promise of another.

[Andy]

Nothing like pouring some sugar-sweet fuel on the fire.
I could say the same thing :evil

Come on now, I'm dead serious in my reply above, where you think it's sugar sweet, I'm telling you, the rest of the posters that we're seeing this.

Would you prefer I say nothing, and not acknowledge the postings?

[Andy]

A single place to find a PRIORITIZED and CATEGORIZED (as I mentioned in my previous post) list of "coming features" would be a big plus.

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=67405

It's a start. Thanks.

[Andy]

5. FEATURE NOTIFICATIONS ... it would be nice to get an e-mail when there is a new feature or change in the system. I've noticed that new pricing options were made available this year that I had not setup a default price in my setup.
We did send out notices to all our customers, and especially pros, with notes into your control panel messaging system.

Did you miss these?

[Andy]

2. ORDER THIS GALLERY option would be nice, instead of having to click through the images and add them to the cart. I had to fill a wedding family's order manually through another provider when they wanted a 4x6 copy of all their photos (1100+).
But multiple photos, select all (one button), add to cart. That's how to do it now. Just making sure you are aware of this.

Are you sure Don and his crew are working on SmugMug and not starting another venture? :wink
:bigbs Uhm, not.

[Scott_Quier]

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=67405

It's a start. Thanks.Andy,

This is an excellent start and is EXACTLY what I was looking for - one-stop shopping for a list of enhancements that are planned, in production, or already on-line.

Thanks

[Dbl]

I could say the same thing :evil

Come on now, I'm dead serious in my reply above, where you think it's sugar sweet, I'm telling you, the rest of the posters that we're seeing this.

Would you prefer I say nothing, and not acknowledge the postings?

Thank you Andy for responding, I may not always agree with answers but at least when one takes the time to write out suggestions I for one appreciate a response. Since we will agree to disagree I more than likely as a "pro" user will move my business site in the next few months to another site that better fits my requirements. It is nothing personal, or emotional because I am not happy, its just plain business. Any good business owner should do what is right for their business, leaving emotional issues out of the fray.

As a personal user I will continue to use SM as I have over the past 2 1/2 years. It really is a great service for that purpose. I appreciate you at least considering the request to look at your policies on implementation of upcoming features.

Dan

[CSwinton]

another comment from the 'other side of the fence':wink
SM is as it is and when we sign up we haven't done so expecting such and such features to be additional parts of the package within any given time frame


Agreed - I think this is an important point. If Smugmug doesn't currently meet your needs then MOVE ON instead of constantly demanding that they tell you when, if, or how they'll add the features you require.

I've been here for over 2 years and MANY of the features that people take for granted now were popular requests from users in years past. SM has a great track record of listening to its customers and implementing features that they want. However, I think this has bred a bit of an attitude of entitlement. They don't owe us anything other than what is advertised and the feature list isn't decided by a majority (or vocal minority) vote. Last I checked, Canon wasn't publishing a list of 40D specs -- even though people might head to Nikon if they weren't reassured that their feature requests were high on the list.

Some of the features people want so badly are tricky to implement as well. One example: people have repeatedly asked for branding in the shopping cart. This poses some problems as presently I can add photos from 5 different galleries (from differerent pro photographers) and check out with all of them in my cart at the same time. So which branding should be displayed?? There are also some security issues with allowing user definable custom code in a secure checkout environment.. Anyway, there are often more far-reaching issues that make clean implementation of some of our requests problematic.

I don't want to stir things up, but I thought I'd add another point of view...

[GJMPhoto]

If you folks think I'm complaining, you're wrong...I'm a new guy in these parts...These suggestions are suggestions, not criticisms...those of us making them are trying to make Smugmug a better place to be...in particular, a better place to host a business.

If Smugmug doesn't currently meet your needs then MOVE ON instead of constantly demanding that they tell you when, if, or how they'll add the features you require.
I don't think Smugmug (or anyone who is in business) would take that approach. There is a loud enough ground-swell in the forums that these are clearly not a one-off requests...and SM is listening, as they should.

When I "Move On", I hope to leave the place in better shape than when I arrived.

Some of the features people want so badly are tricky to implement as well.
Yes? How does that play into this discussion? What's wrong with, "That's a tricky request for several reasons, such as...but we like the idea and will try to implement it as soon as we work out the details...more to come!"...or..."We've looked at that and determined that for several reasons we will not be able to deliver that feature in the near term...sorry". Either response suffices.

Business people weigh cost and benefits - that's what determines priorities...if something is too tricky (read expensive) and doesn't deliver enough benefit it falls off the list. But being complicated is not reason alone to not do something.

Sorry Gary I do think you are wrong, I think it is unreasonable and niave to expect Smugmug to provide the level of information you and some others appear to be insisting upon [...] Producing a prioritised and categorized list of forthcoming developments seems to me like opening the door to any competitiors to jump in first.

I've been in the software business for a (too) long time! I've dealt with literally hundreds of software vendors, ALL of whom provide pipeline information to their customers (some have gone further to established advisory counsels with their best customers to discuss the pipeline) (including IBM, Apple, and Microsoft - I've been on them).
What opens up the door to competitors is an open forum wherein requests are made and a lack of formal disposition is returned. That spells opportunity to a competitor.

---------------

I also was not looking to stir up this place...in fact, it wasn't even my fight to fight...but I noticed, even in the short time I've been here, I was continuously frustrated by the lack of concrete response to ideas and suggestions and the original post rang true for me.

I see this as an issue which, if resolved, will improve Smugmug's reputation and make it an even more advantageous alternative for someone who needs a site to host their business. They will attract more "Pro" users and realize a smaller attrition rate...why fight that?

Peace.
- Gary.

[Matthew Saville]

Ya'll have some great ideas here :clap

I think you'll be pleased with some things we've got in the works. I won't be letting on, no no no, but trust me we hear you!

Thanks for taking the time to let us know how important this stuff is to you guys :bow

Am I the ONLY pro who saw this reply and just about burst with glee?

I don't know how long the other posters in this thread have been around, but I've had a pro account since almost the beginning and honestly, it is the greatest feeling to see Andy post a reply like that. Why? Becuase I KNOW they're on it, and I know it will be SOON. I DO understand that it can be annoying to always get a "we're on it" reply if you don't actually KNOW how good they are at being "on it". But *I* know, so as soon as I see Andy say that I sit back and don't worry about it. It may take a month or two or three, but bottom line- SmugMug has had an amazing track record for enhancing the pro experience over the years, and they are above and beyond any other service out there...

Yes, I understand that it takes months to decide on a new feature and implement it. But SmugMug is by far the best gallery host out there, even for myself as a wedding photographer. Especially for the price. (And with the referral system, I end up paying $20-40 less EVERY year!)


Okay okay, if you want, go try Pictage. Yes, they offer proof books, albums, collections, discounts, etc. But you will come running back to SmugMug so fast I won't even have time to blink. Their actual gallery interface, for both the pro behind the scenes AND for the bride and the public, is truly nightmare-ish. And trust me, I'm a REALLY nice guy and I HATE to bash other productcs / companies.

Right now what works for me is to simply use SmugMug for what it can be used, and use WHCC for anything else. WHCC offers shipped-flat (and pre-mounted, which I always get) prints, and shipping is free 2nd-day too!

http://matthewsaville.smugmug.com/photos/156746663-L.jpg

(Sorry SM gang, no more tubed prints for me. Even if EZprints can get them into the tube un-creased, MOUNTING a curly print is a whole different story...)

I Do however LOVE the new canvas prints offered by SmugMug!!!! Thank you guys!!!!

http://matthewsaville.smugmug.com/photos/153908701-L.jpg

WHCC ALSO gives you candy if you place an extra-huge order, now how can you say no to that?!

http://matthewsaville.smugmug.com/photos/172047267-L-1.jpg


So anyway, I hope this puts a LITTLE peace of mind into my fellow pro's heads. They're on it, worry not!


Sincerely,

Matthew Saville, long-time SmugMug pro user...

PS: I refer fellow wedding photographers to SM all the time. They are always smitten when I show them what SmugMug can do!

I've side-stepped the lack of "package / discount" sales in my own tricky way so I don't really need that feature to come pronto, but making CD / DVD's available directly to the customers is one thing I'm READY for. And Andy, make sure they offer different Resolution CD's, too! I don't want to sell my high-res originals of course, not because I'm greedy but just because I hate to see customers forced to print / mount / frame their own wedding photos, it strikes me as very un-professional. I want to only offer low / medium resolution CD's, and let couples come directly to me for large prints...

[GJMPhoto]

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=67405

It's a start. Thanks.

Yes...a definite plus. Not really what I'm hoping for...but definitely ok.

Thanks for listening.

- Gary.

[mazerphotography]

My first year is almost up. I joined after being told that holiday cards were "in the works" which never happened. I had to use Kinkos. I currently have to make and sell my own CDs of galleries. I am a wedding photographer and have to use a third party for albums. I have never been able to perfect my slide show and being forced to know/write css and java is a pain. I am being killed by my competitor's elegant websites. I really HATE to go to Pictage. They are so expensive. But, your lack of progess on things is frustrating. I guess you are going the stock photography route and leaving us portfolio, event, and wedding photographers behind. Wish you success, but I gotta go. Maybe you guys will finally "get it" when people stop complaining and just plain leave, like me.

[urbanaries]

Right now what works for me is to simply use SmugMug for what it can be used, and use WHCC for anything else. WHCC offers shipped-flat (and pre-mounted, which I always get) prints, and shipping is free 2nd-day too!
....

(Sorry SM gang, no more tubed prints for me. Even if EZprints can get them into the tube un-creased, MOUNTING a curly print is a whole different story...)

So....what do you actually use smugmug for? 4x6es and 5x7s? and those customers that prefer uncut wallets? :dunno

WHCC ALSO gives you candy if you place an extra-huge order, now how can you say no to that?!

...An extra-huge order NOT placed with smugmug. Maybe instead of scaring us away from pictage, you're convincing us to ditch smugmug and do everything thru WHCC, and collect/fulfill on our own. At least then it would be seamless. good idea!

I've side-stepped the lack of "package / discount" sales in my own tricky way so I don't really need that feature to come pronto

Maybe let Andy in on your workaround so he can share it with us and we'd leave him alone! :D

I hate to see customers forced to print / mount / frame their own wedding photos, it strikes me as very un-professional. I want to only offer low / medium resolution CD's, and let couples come directly to me for large prints...

But collecting funds different ways for four different products doesn't look unprofessional? :scratch

[Andy]

My first year is almost up. I joined after being told that holiday cards were "in the works" which never happened. I had to use Kinkos. I currently have to make and sell my own CDs of galleries. I am a wedding photographer and have to use a third party for albums. I have never been able to perfect my slide show and being forced to know/write css and java is a pain. I am being killed by my competitor's elegant websites. I really HATE to go to Pictage. They are so expensive. But, your lack of progess on things is frustrating. I guess you are going the stock photography route and leaving us portfolio, event, and wedding photographers behind. Wish you success, but I gotta go. Maybe you guys will finally "get it" when people stop complaining and just plain leave, like me.
Hi, Ouch - so sorry you are upset. I can't fix everything but I can tell you this: We do not force anyone to learn CSS or Javascript. 1000s of pros have gotten customized by us and Dgrin. If you simply ask for help on your slideshow, or customizing, we have a team of experts on Staff here, as well as dozens of volunteer helpers here on Dgrin, that LOVE to help. But we can't know you need help if you don't ask. AFAIK, anyone who has ever raised their hand and said "help" has always always gotten the help.

Would you like me to assign a specialist to you to get your site going the way you want? Just email me at the help desk, ATTN: Andy, and I'll make it so.

We have no intentions whatsoever of leaving portrait, event, wedding, photographers behind.

Thanks, and if you do leave, best of luck to you.

[photogmomma]

Thanks so much for all the information here.... I'm glad to see I'm not the only one banging my head against the walls because of some of the limitations.

Andy, thanks for putting up the "what's going on" thread so that we know what you're working on now - that's very helpful!

As for what I'm going to be doing... For portrait sessions, I'll stick with SmugMug and if I do books for them, I'll figure out a good way to do them. It's not so hard for that.

But with my weddings, well... for now, I'm going to look around at options. With my level of frustration and the work I've had to do (that I don't feel I should have to), I'm just not happy with the crazy flow. It's frustrating to me and confusing and clunky for my clients.

Now, if another wedding photographer that has done MANY weddings through SM would care to share his/her workflow, maybe I'll decide on something different. But I'd defintely going to be exploring options.

And if SM starts to put out the things I need to keep my work flow sleek for me and my customers, I'll reconsider it.....

Thanks.

[DJ-S1]

I've been in the software business for a (too) long time! I've dealt with literally hundreds of software vendors, ALL of whom provide pipeline information to their customers (some have gone further to established advisory counsels with their best customers to discuss the pipeline) (including IBM, Apple, and Microsoft - I've been on them). Really? Please post a link to the public bulletin board/forum where the Apple/IBM/MS brass discusses specifics of upcoming features or products, I'd really like to read that. Thanks! :thumb

Okay, sorry for the snide remark - it wasn't really called for. But unless I'm missing your point, that is exactly what you folks are asking Andy to do here, on a public forum. Every vendor I've ever gotten a roadmap from (Intel, Sharp, etc) only do so in person with a signed NDA.

[jchin]

We did send out notices to all our customers, and especially pros, with notes into your control panel messaging system.

Did you miss these?

Andy, I haven't received any e-mail notifications. I usually don't check my "Control Panel" unless I need to change something, so having the messages there doesn't help. I usually find those messages after their effectiveness (ie. after the outage or upgrade).

Is there a way to get an e-mail notification? If yes, is there a way for me to get a "test" message so that I am sure our SPAM filtering system doesn't block messages from SM. Thanks.

[Matthew Saville]

...An extra-huge order NOT placed with smugmug. Maybe instead of scaring us away from pictage, you're convincing us to ditch smugmug and do everything thru WHCC, and collect/fulfill on our own. At least then it would be seamless. good idea!

It would be suicide for me to leave SmugMug. I simply do not have the time to take tons of different orders, keep track of who has paid me and who has not, keep track of which prints have been send to the lab and what goes to who, etc. etc. Collecting & fulfilling on my own is a sure fire way to get behind on work and get upset customers. In fact with my nearly-perfected SmugMug workflow, I've "replaced" a number of other photographers for children's theater photography. (Theater previously used the good 'ol "turnaround un-edited proofs in 24-48 and have an order-taking frenzy during a 20-30 min. intermission" business model, yuck!)

Yes, right now SmugMug is geared more towards that kind of event photography and mass print sales style pros... (And some of my galleries are public, if you really want to figure out how I crank up sales without having "package prices") And yes, right now my wedding business requires a couple outside orders.

But I guess I just don't know now to convince everyone of my afore-mentioned satisfaction-

They've got a BEAUTIFUL business workflow / model for some of the work I do, (theater / events) ...and Andy just stated that they're working on expanding their offerings to wedding etc. pros.

Now, if another wedding photographer that has done MANY weddings through SM would care to share his/her workflow, maybe I'll decide on something different. But I'd defintely going to be exploring options.
I'm sorry that my weddings aren't all viewable to the public so you'll never know how "many" SM weddings I've done, but here's my workflow:

Get paid pre-determined price that includes things like proofs / prints etc...

Shoot -> Bridge organize -> Bridge process / Photoshop retouch...
(LR = blah, BR CS3 = yay!)

Effortlessly upload to SM bit by bit, notify couple when mostly online...
(Pictage: FTP upload, then go online and follow a bunch of confusing steps to tell them you've uploaded and what the upload ID# is, then wait for them to "find" your upload, then wait for them to process and publish your upload. And if you don't follow the steps correctly, your photos never show up online... ARE YOU SERIOUS?)

But I digress,

Order proofs effortlessly through ROES, (WHCC) get sweet black borders w/ white stroke, very professional looking...
(oh did I mention free 2nd day shipping?)

Show wedding album design, deliver proofs in person or via mail w/ CD...

Order album, (collect payment) deliver in person or at least look it over and then mail it myself...


All I'm saying is, I know of no other one-stop-shop that offers what SmugMug offers, and they're working as hard as they can to keep up with all the different industries.

Maybe SmugMug needs to offer a totally different variety of pro account, for ~$250 a year, that integrates all the stuff that wedding pros need? Pictage (the galleries and interface of which don't stand a chance against SmugMug) charges $1,200 a year, for comparison...

=Matt=

[scwalter]

Maybe SmugMug needs to offer a totally different variety of pro account, for ~$250 a year, that integrates all the stuff that wedding pros need? Pictage (the galleries and interface of which don't stand a chance against SmugMug) charges $1,200 a year, for comparison...

Have you looked at Exposure Manager? They seem to offer most, if not all, of the often requested features here. Packages, discounts, coupons, branded cart, etc.

http://www.exposuremanager.com/scripts/website.pl?rm=compare

All for only $99 a year with a $50 coupon for customers of other services.


All I'm saying is, I know of no other one-stop-shop that offers what SmugMug offers, and they're working as hard as they can to keep up with all the different industries.

Other than vague responses about coming features, I'm curious why you think "they are working as hard as they can to keep up with all the different industries." If you read the CEO's blog (http://blogs.smugmug.net/don/) it appears that the iPhone is getting all the attention right now. There are about 6 posts about the iPhone over the last few weeks, meanwhile the release notes (http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/) are coming up on being 6 months behind. There have been new features added that I think directly affect the pros, specifically the meta tag being taken from your bio, but it goes undocumented after several months. In my opinion, this is simply not acceptable.

-Scott

[GJMPhoto]

Really? Please post a link to the public bulletin board/forum where the Apple/IBM/MS brass discusses specifics of upcoming features or products, I'd really like to read that. Thanks! :thumb

Okay, sorry for the snide remark - it wasn't really called for. But unless I'm missing your point, that is exactly what you folks are asking Andy to do here, on a public forum. Every vendor I've ever gotten a roadmap from (Intel, Sharp, etc) only do so in person with a signed NDA.

Andy has recognized the point and has led me to believe SM will do something about it over time...which is the entire point of this - now too long - argument.

Directly to your comment - and it's not snide - my comments were about disclosing to customers, not to the general public...perhaps you've hit on something else? A section in the Wiki for customers only...perhaps, login protected? I don't know...that sounds like more work to me. Still, if it were my software, I'd make the level of info we're talking about available. I don't think it's giving away trade secrets, it's just giving a greater level of disposition to customer requests.

- Gary.

[Art Scott]

Have you looked at Exposure Manager? They seem to offer most, if not all, of the often requested features here. Packages, discounts, coupons, branded cart, etc.

http://www.exposuremanager.com/scripts/website.pl?rm=compare

All for only $99 a year with a $50 coupon for customers of other services.


Other than vague responses about coming features, I'm curious why you think "they are working as hard as they can to keep up with all the different industries." If you read the CEO's blog (http://blogs.smugmug.net/don/) it appears that the iPhone is getting all the attention right now. There are about 6 posts about the iPhone over the last few weeks, meanwhile the release notes (http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/) are coming up on being 6 months behind. There have been new features added that I think directly affect the pros, specifically the meta tag being taken from your bio, but it goes undocumented after several months. In my opinion, this is simply not acceptable.

-Scott

As they told me in an email....."We are NOT a gallery HOSTING company"...WE (Exposure Manager) are a Sales tool for professional photographers.

Otherwise they look pretty dang competative here..........................

[Matthew Saville]

As they told me in an email....."We are NOT a gallery HOSTING company"...WE (Exposure Manager) are a Sales tool for professional photographers.

Otherwise they look pretty dang competative here..........................

Hmm, if they're not a gallery hosting company, but yet their chart states they offer unlimited storage and galleries etc. etc ...then what are they lol? I'd be intersted, if it didn't turn out to be similarly horribly designed like Pictage.

Although upon close scrutiny, it doesn't look like they offer the things I'd like SmugMug to offer anyways, such as proof books, or just proof prints with borders / stroke, and album services. So no reason for me to switch.

And besides, having 10 gigs of photos on Smugmug, I'm not really just going to pick up camp and move even if the grass does get a little greener, I must admit. Smugmug meets my needs and I'm already acustomed to the interface. Now I know that doesn't mean anything to new users and they might just all flock to other hosts and SM's growth might just level off, but again, that's not what I'm seeing happening, yet...

And, in response to scwalter-

I am happy because I've been around for long enough to watch Smugmug evolve from where it started to where it is today, and I know that the kind of people living in Mountain View, CA are not dumb enough to kick up their feet at any time and just consider themselves to have a monopoly on the business. The debut of Zenfolio has surely proven that Smugmug must stay on top even in an industry that they helped pioneer. Now of course people living in the silicon valley in general are prone to obsess over Apple products every now and then and that's just something we'll have to learn to accept, but, okay okay I'm kidding, Don put down your dang iPhone and get back to work! Sheesh!

=Matt=