Stop Already!!!

[Seymore]

I have no idea what you're doing RIGHT NOW... but it's screwing up my moving some folders around. Now I get the following when I do ANYTHING on my site:
You're in! Now for some fun.
Your new address on the Internet is:

http://MooreFoto.smugmug.com

First things first: Photos live in galleries - so you're gonna need at least one. Click the add photos button, above, to create your first one.

Feeling fancy? Pick a theme by clicking the themes button above.

Lost? Why click your heels twice to return home when you can just click once on your photos at the top?

Ready for more? Test yourself with our New Users Checklist.

No worries—when your admirers visit they won't see the extra controls you see, like the add photos button.
NO DUH!!!

Give this to the newbies! I've been around long enough and know what works and I use it!!! And things are REALLY slooooooooow right now. STOP ALREADY!!!

Why do you insist on making something that works great, better? If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!!! And if you start giving us BLOAT-WARE and the site crawls, you'll be loosing customers and we'll take our PICs elsewhere. BLOAT-WARE is NOT a good thing, and with all these "improvements" this is where I'm seeing Smugmug heading to.


STOP ALREADY!!!

[Andy]

I have no idea what you're doing RIGHT NOW... but it's screwing up my moving some folders around. Now I get the following when I do ANYTHING on my site:
You're in! Now for some fun.
Your new address on the Internet is:

http://MooreFoto.smugmug.com

First things first: Photos live in galleries - so you're gonna need at least one. Click the add photos button, above, to create your first one.

Feeling fancy? Pick a theme by clicking the themes button above.

Lost? Why click your heels twice to return home when you can just click once on your photos at the top?

Ready for more? Test yourself with our New Users Checklist.

No worries—when your admirers visit they won't see the extra controls you see, like the add photos button.
NO DUH!!!

Give this to the newbies! I've been around long enough and know what works and I use it!!! And things are REALLY slooooooooow right now. STOP ALREADY!!!

Why do you insist on making something that works great, better? If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!!! And if you start giving us BLOAT-WARE and the site crawls, you'll be loosing customers and we'll take our PICs elsewhere. BLOAT-WARE is NOT a good thing, and with all these "improvements" this is where I'm seeing Smugmug heading to.


STOP ALREADY!!!
Ouch, Seymore, I can see you are very upset. I don't understand much of what you are posting about, but it seems you are upset about the new user checklist? Let me see if I can help you tonight.

I went to your site and it's all normal to me. I get no such message box, logged in, or out.

Crazy things have happened at times, I can only suspect a browser hiccup. We're not doing anything right now, I assure you, to your site, or any sites.

Could you try clearing your cookies for your IE6 browser?
http://www.smugmug.com/help/cookies has instructions on how to do this.

FYI this is what I saw on your site, it's looking quite normal here to me?
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/161540301-L.jpg

EDIT: Don't clear your cookies - it's a bug in our system ... and I've reported it and it will be fixed. Sorry for the hassle.

[Andy]

Well Seymore, it sure seems like you found a Bug in our system. Thanks for that. But please, let's not blow things out of proportion, okay? We didn't do anything intentional here, and we're very sorry that your viewing experience was marred this evening.

Seems that if you view yournickname.smugmug.com/UNUSED CATEGORY then you get that newbie welcome message:

http://moorefoto.smugmug.com/Friends

as opposed to a legit category on your site:
http://moorefoto.smugmug.com/Texas

It's our mistake, and we're very sorry about this. We'll get it fixed Seymore, thanks again for bringing it to our attention, and I'm very sorry that it's upset you.

[Seymore]

Well Andy, I originally signed up because the system was quick, snappy and simple to navigate. I stopped using Macmurph (sig line) because he was unwilling to implement some of what I saw as simple suggestions and I wanted more structure in my host. Well, I see SM slowing down and the changes are affecting the users directly. Not a good thing.

It seems that "WE", the long term members, have to play BETA testers on every turn and I'm sic of it! I'm see alot of BLOAT-WARE and a more complicated system. I'm now seeing and talking about the pull-down menus when adding "new photos". Have the minds here forgotten what K.I.S.S. means? It means simple is good. It makes things easy to navigate and your customers will swoon over the front end. Complicate it and you'll have a load of weekly "let's check it out" people who can't figure it out and leave.

- I just re-read your last post and now see what you're saying. Thanks for explaining this. I was dragging a folder URL to another window so I could move folders from a SUB to another SUB. I had about 8 folders to move and the way you drop into the new SUB and have to navigate to the old folder to move another folder. Seems I found this bug without even knowing it.

- And to address another problem... So, you want me to DEL ALL my cookies? So, I get to manually log in to all the sites I visit? Come on Andy... I've been in the IT world for over 20 years and strongly suggest you give your customers better advice than this. Tell what cookies I should DEL that apply directly to SM because I'm not going to follow your original advice. I'll gladly DEL the TIF (Temp Internet Files) but anything else is out of the question.



BTW, this lack of patience/frustration on my behalf is NOT directed at you (Andy) but please pass on this thought process to the powers-to-be and ask them (from/for me) to reconsider any more enhancements. I ask you this as an active member here...

Thanks man

[Andy]

- And to address another problem... So, you want me to DEL ALL my cookies? So, I get to manually log in to all the sites I visit? Come on Andy... I've been in the IT world for over 20 years and strongly suggest you give your customers better advice than this. Tell what cookies I should DEL that apply directly to SM because I'm not going to follow your original advice. I'll gladly DEL the TIF (Temp Internet Files) but anything else is out of the question. Please see my EDIT, I made that a long time ago, only a few minutes after my first post. I said do not clear your cookies, as it was our issue.

IE6 (your browser, according to the info I see on our admin system) doesn't allow individual cookie deletion. I suspect there's a way, to get the cookies one by one... Firefox, on the other hand, does and makes it real easy :)



BTW, this lack of patience/frustration on my behalf is NOT directed at you (Andy) but please pass on this thought process to the powers-to-be
Every one of us here at SmugMug is a "power to be".
and ask them (from/for me) to reconsider any more enhancements. I ask you this as an active member here...

Thanks manAre you saying you'd like us to stop innovating? I'm sure you don't mean that!

[Andy]

Well Andy, I originally signed up because the system was quick, snappy and simple to navigate. I stopped using Macmurph (sig line) because he was unwilling to implement some of what I saw as simple suggestions and I wanted more structure in my host. Well, I see SM slowing down and the changes are affecting the users directly. Not a good thing.

It seems that "WE", the long term members, No, every member of SmugMug, from the newest account, all they way back to user 1 got the new feature :) I'm sorry you are finding the new add photos menu difficult. Personally, I think it's rather cool, you get to choose "new gallery" or any existing gallery from where ever you are on your site. I'm sorry you aren't finding it useful, or good. I'll make sure our team sees this!

[Dbl]

I agree with Seymore on this one. Just look at the threads from the past 3 or 4 days. I said it in another thread, I don't want to be a web designer, I want a site that is fast, stable and easy to use. Not something that every 3 or 4 weeks I have to come in here and figure out how to beat the latest bug!

I don't mind progress or innovation, but I honestly can't see that in the latest changes. Fly out boxes, I find them a huge pain in the rear, they pop out when you don't want them to, and my customer feedback has not been great on them either.

I need a site that I don't have to worry about every couple of weeks not working the way it should. I like to take photos and sell photos, not fix web sites. I have been around since 2005, and there have been more changes in the last six months than the year and a half before that. It has become bloated with features that don't help me do my job effectively.

I have seen responses the past few days from Andy, Mike Lane, JT and others that say "lets not blow this out of proportion", we are not, we are expressing our dissatisfaction to changes many of use don't find benefit us. You want to know, we are letting you know. I get frustrated by all the tweaking that causes me to spend time on something I frankly don't like to do.

I believe that I have seen more people the last few months that are also not pleased than all of my other time around Smugmug. I hope that is being noticed. Thanks for listening to at least two customers who are not exactly happy.

[caroline]

I agree with Seymore on this one. Just look at the threads from the past 3 or 4 days. I said it in another thread, I don't want to be a web designer, I want a site that is fast, stable and easy to use. Not something that every 3 or 4 weeks I have to come in here and figure out how to beat the latest bug!

I don't mind progress or innovation, but I honestly can't see that in the latest changes. Fly out boxes, I find them a huge pain in the rear, they pop out when you don't want them to, and my customer feedback has not been great on them either.

I need a site that I don't have to worry about every couple of weeks not working the way it should. I like to take photos and sell photos, not fix web sites. I have been around since 2005, and there have been more changes in the last six months than the year and a half before that. It has become bloated with features that don't help me do my job effectively.

I have seen responses the past few days from Andy, Mike Lane, JT and others that say "lets not blow this out of proportion", we are not, we are expressing our dissatisfaction to changes many of use don't find benefit us. You want to know, we are letting you know. I get frustrated by all the tweaking that causes me to spend time on something I frankly don't like to do.

I believe that I have seen more people the last few months that are also not pleased than all of my other time around Smugmug. I hope that is being noticed. Thanks for listening to at least two customers who are not exactly happy.

Can someone [lease tell me exactly what this "NEW FEATURE" is ?
I've been away for a few days and have just checked into the forum. I can see a lot of dissatisfaction, I have found a pop up for adding galleries but is there anything else ?
Do I have to scour every message here to try and find what is causing this angst ?

Caroline

[Seymore]

Yes Andy... I saw your edit. But even the instruction page you pointed me to is misleading and many people who do this have no idea what the long term effects will be. All those sites they log into with different PWs will need to have new cookies dropped, maybe even have their PW reset or emailed to them, is a royal PITA and may even cause more questions to be asked on your end. Like, "why did you make me do this and not explain that it would affect all the other sites I visit?". How would you address this?


Are you saying you'd like us to stop innovating? I'm sure you don't mean that!
YES! I do mean this! What makes you think that everything needs to be improved? Now, I don't expect SM to sit back on their laurels... but there comes a time and point where an "improvement" is NOT needed or wanted and ends up being a waste of the programmers time. I would suggest SM put more effort into security (as needed), the ability to allow the user to pick what "features" they want on/off and maybe even adding another tier to the pricing structure? There are many other things that could happen. But making the users deal with the bugs generated by "innovation" doesn't help.

I used to play BETA tester for software implementation back in the early 90's and finally got tired if finding problems that the programmers kept telling me were hardware issues. Come to find there was at least one weak link in the programmers structure that lead to failure on a multitude of hardware platforms. Many of which they still had in their inventory. Long story short... I don't think that end-users should have to BETA and improvements are not always needed or a good thing.

Streamlining, if someone has insight, may be something for staffers to mull over. IE... putting all the CAT & SUBCAT on one page so all could be done at one time instead of jumping to different pages for mods of similar items.


/soapbox

[richW]

Can someone [lease tell me exactly what this "NEW FEATURE" is ?
I've been away for a few days and have just checked into the forum. I can see a lot of dissatisfaction, I have found a pop up for adding galleries but is there anything else ?
Do I have to scour every message here to try and find what is causing this angst ?

CarolineHi Carloine,
SmugIslands feature: http://www.smugmug.com/help/private-search-island

Check out the new add photo button. I gives you the ability to make a new gallery or add photo to any of your galleries from one place. If you need any help...yell. Cheers:)

I think whats going on here is a bug...

[Seymore]

I agree with Seymore on this one. Just look at the threads from the past 3 or 4 days. I said it in another thread, I don't want to be a web designer, I want a site that is fast, stable and easy to use. Not something that every 3 or 4 weeks I have to come in here and figure out how to beat the latest bug!
Yep... stable and consistant are good things. And I see both as somewhat lacking here currently.

[iamback]

I'm sorry you are finding the new add photos menu difficult. Personally, I think it's rather cool, you get to choose "new gallery" or any existing gallery from where ever you are on your site. I'm sorry you aren't finding it useful, or good. I'll make sure our team sees this!Getting to choose "new gallery" could have been implemented by adding a link instead of making the more frequently-used "add photos" requiring two clicks instead of one now. Then both would have been one mouse-click away, and that would certainly have been "cool".

KISS indeed. KISS is cool.

[Andy]

I Fly out boxes, I find them a huge pain in the rear, they pop out when you don't want them to, and my customer feedback has not been great on them either.
Hi Dbl, this is a flyout box that your customers will never see. Just want to be clear on that.
I have seen responses the past few days from Andy, Mike Lane, JT and others that say "lets not blow this out of proportion", we are not, we are expressing our dissatisfaction to changes many of use don't find benefit us. I said that here in this thread, as Seymore was getting upset about the bug, where the "welcome" landing page was showing.

I would never, ever say that regarding him, you, or anyone expressing their feelings about a feature or change we made.

We value this feedback, it's like gold to us.

[Art Scott]

I guess I make 3 (so far) that doesn't care for the new feature.....especially when I am already in the gallery I want to add photos to and that thing makes me have to clik again to say YES THIS GALLERY IDIOT.........logically speaking...why would anyone in gallery A (european vacation photos) clik add photos and then want them in gallery B with Unca Ted and family, when we all know unca Ted doesn't give a rats tail about anything european or your vacation whick according to Unca Ted was a real waste of money...just think how much BBQ and BEER that coulda bought.

I am seeing times waitning on the smuggy mouth to get loaded, that takes as much as 3-5 minutes and I am on dsl......

[rainforest1155]

I guess I make 3 (so far) that doesn't care for the new feature.....especially when I am already in the gallery I want to add photos to and that thing makes me have to clik again to say YES THIS GALLERY IDIOT.........logically speaking...why would anyone in gallery A (european vacation photos) clik add photos and then want them in gallery B with Unca Ted and family, when we all know unca Ted doesn't give a rats tail about anything european or your vacation whick according to Unca Ted was a real waste of money...just think how much BBQ and BEER that coulda bought
That's great feedback, thanks.

One thing you can try if a pages doesn't seem to finish loading when everythings already seems to be in place is to tell the browser to stop loading. Usually on PC you can do this by hitting the ESC-key.

Sebastian

[Dbl]

Hi Dbl, this is a fly out box that your customers will never see. Just want to be clear on that. I said that here in this thread, as Seymore was getting upset about the bug, where the "welcome" landing page was showing.

I would never, ever say that regarding him, you, or anyone expressing their feelings about a feature or change we made.

We value this feedback, it's like gold to us.

The fly out box I am referring to is the photo fly out which my customers can't seem to find or gets in the way when they don't want it to. And I just want to be clear on that. Just another change I wasn't happy with, nor it would seem are my customers. I also value feedback...from my customers and what they like or dislike about their experience on my site. I am trying to make browsing my site as easy as I can.

Lets work on changing the pricing mess that seems to not make much sense to many users, the ability to add packages, the ability to add other printing vendors, better shipping options, things that I work with on a daily basis and directly affect my sales capabilities.

[NikonGirl]

I guess I make 3 (so far) that doesn't care for the new feature.....especially when I am already in the gallery I want to add photos to and that thing makes me have to clik again to say YES THIS GALLERY IDIOT.........

I'm with you on this one. When I'm in Gallery A and click Add Photo, it only makes sense that I want photos added Gallery A. I don't understand how this was a problem to anyone. On the other hand, it is only one click. For me, it's not a real issue because I use SmugBrowser to add photos.

However, I really like seeing the list of all my galleries and categories when I click on Add Photo. I would like to see this same type of list available on my home page or in the control panel.

And it would be really nice if the Release Notes were kept current.

[PBolchover]

I'm with you on this one. When I'm in Gallery A and click Add Photo, it only makes sense that I want photos added Gallery A

Gallery Tools / Add Photo still works fine.

Personally, I'm happy to have two options when viewing a gallery - one of which adds photos to the current gallery, the other of which gives me the option to create a new gallery.

That being said, I use "Send to Smugmgu" so don't this use functionality anyway.

[dmc]

the new drop downs are pretty nifty... don't recall that being on the feature request thread though....

The brand new menu's are not sorted either... this has been a long standing issue on on other dropdown selection screens....
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/161751758-L.jpg

Also, why not fix some really easy stuff that has been an issue forever like
save original if logged in (regardless of settings)
allow right click save when logged in (regardless of settings)
sort all the drop down lists
display original filename when attempting "Replace Photo"
option to put back the camera info, the "links" link, the "save photo" link, etc
and lots of other little things that I see here brought up over and overbtw, the Smug Island appears to be working! my statcounter is not showing hits from all over the world anymore, yeah

[sskoutas]

2 cents ain't worth a dime :D, but here's mine. I love the new "add photos anywhere" feature. It's a great addition when I'm not using the even better smugbrowser.

Keep up the excellent work, and I applaud the innovation. Speed is important too, so always please keep that in the back of your minds as you develop.

[dogwood]

allow right click save when logged in (regardless of settings
display original filename when attempting "Replace Photo"

Now these suggestions seem like good ideas. :D

Just chiming in on this thread-- I actually appreciate the upgrades and willingness of SM to try new stuff. One option for folks who hate the constant upgrades-- myspace! Seriously, I don't think they've upgraded code or anything else there since 1999 and I don't think they have any updates planned. You can't even leave comments in your CSS (which oddly, operates within HTML :scratch) .

Anyway, in the interest of full disclosure, I did just get my fattest check yet from SM today. It was for print/digital download sales over the past two months. So my customers seem to be navigating my site okay. So yeah, I've had my share of frustrations with SM, but compared to say myspace or pbase or the vastly more expensive livebooks, there ain't no contest.

But... I should say I don't mind being a beta tester either and happily embraced the beta CS3 even though it was a MAJOR pain in the a$$ when the commercial version was released. Yes, the beta CS3 was voluntary, but in a way, so is SM. There are other services out there and at least for me, I still haven't found one as decent for the price.

Okay, now where's the "blab blab blab blab" smilie?

[AnneMcBean]

Getting to choose "new gallery" could have been implemented by adding a link instead of making the more frequently-used "add photos" requiring two clicks instead of one now. Then both would have been one mouse-click away, and that would certainly have been "cool".

KISS indeed. KISS is cool.

Hi,

That is always a tough decision we have to make when we add a new feature. Do we add yet another button to the interface? In this case, we thought it would be simpler to just make the "new gallery" button more powerful.

You can now use that button to add photos to any gallery on your whole SmugMug site. For many users, that saves clicks. Instead of navigating through the category and subcategory to get to the gallery and click "add photos", you can stay right on whatever page you're on and quickly add photos to any gallery. For many users, that makes a lot more sense. We found lots of people wanted to "add photos" and didn't get the hang of needing a gallery to add the photos to, and they didn't realize they actually had to be IN that gallery to find and "add photos" button.

Not everyone is happy with every change, but please don't think we're adding features on a whim. We felt this made the site more powerful without complicating the interface. It's a lot easier for most people with lots of categories/subcategories/galleries to get their photos on SmugMug. And that's how we like it. :)

Of course, we appreciate the feedback. In this case "one click away" was less important to us than the struggle people have with extra buttons. It's one extra click in some cases, but it's a lot more power :deal .

-Anne

[Ben]

the new drop downs are pretty nifty... don't recall that being on the feature request thread though....

<snip>

Also, why not fix some really easy stuff that has been an issue forever like
save original if logged in (regardless of settings)
allow right click save when logged in (regardless of settings)
sort all the drop down lists
display original filename when attempting "Replace Photo"
option to put back the camera info, the "links" link, the "save photo" link, etc
and lots of other little things that I see here brought up over and over
Keep in mind that Dgrin (while growing rapidly) still represents a vocal minority of our customers. It is VERY skewed towards the more advanced users and especially Pros. The actual demographic of SmugMug users is very skewed in the opposite direction. Far more casual users than hardcore users.

So there are sometimes really pressing features that don't affect customers here that much, but are killing a HUGE number of our customers and our potential customers. This was one of them. Figuring out how to add photos to their account from their homepage was confusing a lot of casual customers. If you go away and don't come back to visit your SmugMug account for 3 months (pretty common behavior for a lot of our customers), you probably don't remember that you first need to create a gallery and then go into the uploaders.

The type of people who get stuck on that aren't the type (for the most part) who are going to come running to Dgrin to suggest a change. But that doesn't mean we don't hear it over and over again on the help desk, asking us how on earth they add photos to their account.

Dgrin is an amazing resource for us, and we probably skew our dev time towards features that we hear here (SmugIslands is a good recent example of that), but we do have to keep the rest of the SmugMug family in mind too. :D

[AnneMcBean]

I guess I make 3 (so far) that doesn't care for the new feature.....especially when I am already in the gallery I want to add photos to and that thing makes me have to clik again to say YES THIS GALLERY IDIOT.........logically speaking...why would anyone in gallery A (european vacation photos) clik add photos and then want them in gallery B with Unca Ted and family, when we all know unca Ted doesn't give a rats tail about anything european or your vacation whick according to Unca Ted was a real waste of money...just think how much BBQ and BEER that coulda bought.

I am seeing times waitning on the smuggy mouth to get loaded, that takes as much as 3-5 minutes and I am on dsl......

Hi Art,

Your logic is based on the way SmugMug has always functioned in the past. You can absolutely still navigate around to the correct gallery before attempting to add photos (just as you always have). It'll take you one more click to add those photos once you're in the gallery. Or, the same amount of clicks if you typically select "add photos" from the gallery tools menu. However, you no longer have to navigate to a different gallery if you don't want to!

Instead of backing out of one gallery, and clicking on the appropriate category, subcategory, and gallery and waiting for each page to load in order to locate the next place you'd like to add photos, (and quite possibly get lost on your SmugMug site in the process if you're anything like me), you can just do that from any page on your SmugMug site. No page loads, no fuss. Just select the gallery and get photos added!

Again, obviously some people will still want to manually cruise around their SmugMug site to locate that next gallery they'd like to add a photo to, and they are more than welcome to do that. However, for those of us who'd like to save time and zip through the process of uploading lots of photos to different galleries, this is a great addition.

-Anne

[dogwood]

Keep in mind that Dgrin (while growing rapidly) still represents a vocal minority of our customers. It is VERY skewed towards the more advanced users and especially Pros. The actual demographic of SmugMug users is very skewed in the opposite direction. Far more casual users than hardcore users.


Not to stir the pot too much, but I think it's worth noting that:

a) pro users pay SM a higher annual fee than the "more casual users"

b) pro users also earn SM money on print/download sales

Just pointing this out. I realize SM makes every effort to treat every user with equal importance and I completely understand your point.

[AnneMcBean]

Also, why not fix some really easy stuff that has been an issue forever like
save original if logged in (regardless of settings)
allow right click save when logged in (regardless of settings)
sort all the drop down lists
display original filename when attempting "Replace Photo"
option to put back the camera info, the "links" link, the "save photo" link, etc
and lots of other little things that I see here brought up over and overbtw, the Smug Island appears to be working! my statcounter is not showing hits from all over the world anymore, yeah

Also, just a reminder that what may seem like "really easy stuff" to you may in fact be very tricky to implement. As evidenced by this feature, we put a lot of thought and planning into things we release, because we're bound to hear mixed reviews. With some of the features you mentioned, there are permissions issues to be thoroughly sorted out, with others, we may currently feel that adding them will over-complicate the interface.

We constantly listen to feedback and feature requests, but what is most important to one customer is often not important to the majority of customers and we have to weigh the impact adding it will have on the whole SmugMug community, not just a few vocal dgrinners (no matter how fond we are of you guys ;) .

-Anne

[Ben]

Not to stir the pot too much, but I think it's worth noting that:

a) pro users pay SM a higher annual fee than the "more casual users"

b) pro users also earn SM money on print/download sales

Just pointing this out. I realize SM makes every effort to treat every user with equal importance and I completely understand your point.

This is very true, and not something we have forgotten, but we have a lot more Standard users than Pro users... so I couldn't say for certain off the top of my head which section actually brings in more money if you want to look at it from a purely spreadsheet sort of thing. We also sell an obscene number of prints to Standard accounts and their families. Margins are lower, but volume is higher.

Not that it matters though. Even if we had more Pro users than Standard, and even if we had more print volume from Pros than Standard... we wouldn't stop developing for Standard accounts.

We support all account levels, and develop features for them all.

And lastly, this feature definitely was added to address the confusion of casual users, but it was built to make it easier to add photos to any gallery for all types of users. For someone who has lots of galleries, and lots of categories, it should be MUCH easier and quicker to add photos to existing galleries from their homepage now.

[AnneMcBean]

The fly out box I am referring to is the photo fly out which my customers can't seem to find or gets in the way when they don't want it to. And I just want to be clear on that. Just another change I wasn't happy with, nor it would seem are my customers. I also value feedback...from my customers and what they like or dislike about their experience on my site. I am trying to make browsing my site as easy as I can.

Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like you're referring to the photobar. This is another interface change that made things a lot easier for lots and lots of people, yet harder for other people at the same time. We make some hard choices, but after lots and lots of feedback, both here on dgrin and from hundreds of customers emailing our Help Desk, we're confident that our new, cleaner interface is helping the vast majority of customers.

Did you know you can have that photobar pop out underneath the photo instead of over the top? Your customers may find it less obtrusive that way. It's #21 on our Customization FAQ: http://smugmug.com/help/customize-faq.mg . :deal



Lets work on changing the pricing mess that seems to not make much sense to many users, the ability to add packages, the ability to add other printing vendors, better shipping options, things that I work with on a daily basis and directly affect my sales capabilities.

Again, it's a bit more complicated. We're glad to hear what your top feature requests are, of course. But just as an example, changing "the pricing mess" will have a huge (and possibly negative) impact on our pros that understand and use the current pricing method. Just look at what happened when we changed the "new gallery" button? And it's far less complicated. :D

Adding packages, other vendors, shipping options, etc. are definitely things many of our pros work with on a daily basis, but they are also a whole lot of work to implement. Please know that just because the latest feature request didn't include these features, that doesn't mean we're not hard at work on them! :wink

-Anne

[scwalter]

Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like you're referring to the photobar. This is another interface change that made things a lot easier for lots and lots of people, yet harder for other people at the same time. We make some hard choices, but after lots and lots of feedback, both here on dgrin and from hundreds of customers emailing our Help Desk, we're confident that our new, cleaner interface is helping the vast majority of customers.

Did you know you can have that photobar pop out underneath the photo instead of over the top? Your customers may find it less obtrusive that way. It's #21 on our Customization FAQ: :wink

-Anne
I think there are cases where you could have made both sides happy, but failed. For the record, I think adding another button for add photos would be better than changing the functonality of the old button. If not, at least change the name of the button to reflect the new functionality... such as adding an arrow or something indicating that it is a flyout menu.

Another example about how you could please more people: here's a copy of a post I made about the photobar.

http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=473000&postcount=35

IMO, one thing that would please most people would be the ability to have the photobar visible at all times with no hover required.

Ideally, there should be an option in the gallery to have the floating one, or a fixed one that shows at the bottom of the photos. It should be sized to match the width of the large photos, or make it tansparent with no border, so that the background color shows through.

-Scott
I will follow up my own post with a picture that I posted during the beta comments. This is what I want. A fixed photobar with a subset of the exif info.

Even the flyout should have an option to include the basic exposure info, IMO.

http://scwalter.smugmug.com/photos/114274298-O.jpg

[sherstone]

but....

creating a new gallery and adding photos
is not only demanding that I make coffee but drink the whole pot too.

I am still waiting for a new gallery to produce results
and it took a good 5 minutes to actually show up.

:dunno

hopefully this is just a temporary glitch :wink

posting to inform more than complain.

thanks

EDIT: Slow but it did finally work.

[simplykristi]

Do you use beta testers to test new features before they go live?

Kristi

http://www.simplykristi.smugmug.com/

[Dbl]

Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like you're referring to the photobar. This is another interface change that made things a lot easier for lots and lots of people, yet harder for other people at the same time. We make some hard choices, but after lots and lots of feedback, both here on dgrin and from hundreds of customers emailing our Help Desk, we're confident that our new, cleaner interface is helping the vast majority of customers.

Did you know you can have that photobar pop out underneath the photo instead of over the top? Your customers may find it less obtrusive that way. It's #21 on our Customization FAQ: http://smugmug.com/help/customize-faq.mg . :deal


-Anne

My photo bar IS underneath the photo, I changed it within a week of implementation. Many of my customers don't care for it or are confused it even exists. Ultimately I have to listen to the feedback from MY customers and they will drive me toward other options when it negatively impacts my sales.

The "vocal grinner's" you refer to are in many cases people like me who spend time on their site everyday. Last Friday is a good example, I was unable to access my site the majority of the day due to the latest "feature upgrade". A few "vocal grinner's" pointed out that there was an issue. The casual user you mentioned will have no idea there ever was a problem, they then have no reason to post here or write the help desk.

In effect many of the "vocal grinner's" become beta testers and end up dealing with web site issues when we all would much prefer taking photos, which I believe is the reason we are all here. That is why threads like this pop up, the "vocal grinner's" end up trying get a site up and running with no bugs and one that requires virtually no input once it is up and running. Instead we spend time posting here and to the help desk to get our site operable after large amounts of time spent getting it where we want.

Originally Posted by AnneMcBean
Adding packages, other vendors, shipping options, etc. are definitely things many of our pros work with on a daily basis, but they are also a whole lot of work to implement. Please know that just because the latest feature request didn't include these features, that doesn't mean we're not hard at work on them!

How long has package pricing been brought up? I did a quick search and this is not the oldest post but...http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=13042&highlight=photo+packages

This was over two years ago! We are still it would seem not any closer to that request. This is where the frustration starts to build, we work on photo bars, and add photo buttons but little progress seems to made on issues that have been around for years. This is only one example.

Please don't misunderstand, change and progress is inevitable in order to stay competitive. But a stable, fast, site that is easy for users and customers alike to use is the ultimate goal. I just wonder sometimes if Smugmug is headed that direction. As I said at the top my customers and my ability to deal with these improvements will tell me when and if Smugmug achieves that goal.

[Neener]

There must be something weird going on with the site right now. I just tried to upload 5 photos to my site. It showed that it received 5 files, yet when I checked the gallery about 10 minutes later, there were no new photos in it. So I uploaded them again. Again it showed receiving 5 files. This time when I checked my gallery, I saw 10 icons showing Processing Image, but they were not at the end of the gallery where they usually are, they were inserted from the 2nd photo on. A half hour later, it still had those 10 icons showing....not the new photos I uploaded, so I went in and deleted those "images" (icons).
I decided to try uploading just 1 photo and got the same problems. Stuck it in as the 2nd photo, and all I see is the icon stating Processing Image. Never did see any of the photos I uploaded. :dunno

http://backwardglances.smugmug.com/gallery/2594268#139372172

[devbobo]

There must be something weird going on with the site right now. I just tried to upload 5 photos to my site. It showed that it received 5 files, yet when I checked the gallery about 10 minutes later, there were no new photos in it. So I uploaded them again. Again it showed receiving 5 files. This time when I checked my gallery, I saw 10 icons showing Processing Image, but they were not at the end of the gallery where they usually are, they were inserted from the 2nd photo on. A half hour later, it still had those 10 icons showing....not the new photos I uploaded, so I went in and deleted those "images" (icons).
I decided to try uploading just 1 photo and got the same problems. Stuck it in as the 2nd photo, and all I see is the icon stating Processing Image. Never did see any of the photos I uploaded. :dunno

http://backwardglances.smugmug.com/gallery/2594268#139372172

Our queues have been backed up a little...it appears that the image you linked to is being displayed now.

[PBolchover]

Our queues have been backed up a little...it appears that the image you linked to is being displayed now.

Which brings me to an old feature request. Would it be possible to have a page somewhere on smugmug that displays the current length of the processing queue? Ie the expected time for a photo to be processed.

Then, if a photo takes a long time to display, we could simply check the queue status, rather than posting a thread to dgrin.

For bonus points, you might be able to display the number of photos in the queue and/or how rapidly the queue is lengthening / shortening.

[dmc]

<snip>
And lastly, this feature definitely was added to address the confusion of casual users, but it was built to make it easier to add photos to any gallery for all types of users. For someone who has lots of galleries, and lots of categories, it should be MUCH easier and quicker to add photos to existing galleries from their homepage now.

agree, I like the drop down.... but shouldn't it be sorted???

[Eriktank]

I think the "Powers that be" are missing a strong point here...

The new feature is quite simply awesome and I HIGHLY doubt anyone would really complain (much) about it IF (and I highly emphasize IF) it A) worked and B) worked FAST... and by 'worked fast' I mean, "didn't slow down or halt my site".

There's no question in my mind that smugmug is innovative and trying to adapt... it is disheartening to see new features appear without old things missing being addressed/fixed first (as mentioned in page 3 about the permissions while logged in and such) but as a savvy computer user (and I know not every photographer is) I love new bells and whistles... I just HATE them and COMPLAIN about them when they don't work, OR worse yet, make everything else not work too...

I hope no one is sleeping at smugmug and that the problem gets resolved soon... I don't want to be the only one who loses sleep over their business site being "down"... makes me feel as helpless as having a sick child...

Sorry for my ranting - I'm all for innovation, but speed is the priority no matter what. Obviously uptime comes first - and THAT is why I'm upset.

[Dbl]

I think the "Powers that be" are missing a strong point here...

The new feature is quite simply awesome and I HIGHLY doubt anyone would really complain (much) about it IF (and I highly emphasize IF) it A) worked and B) worked FAST... and by 'worked fast' I mean, "didn't slow down or halt my site".

There's no question in my mind that smugmug is innovative and trying to adapt... it is disheartening to see new features appear without old things missing being addressed/fixed first (as mentioned in page 3 about the permissions while logged in and such) but as a savvy computer user (and I know not every photographer is) I love new bells and whistles... I just HATE them and COMPLAIN about them when they don't work, OR worse yet, make everything else not work too...

I hope no one is sleeping at smugmug and that the problem gets resolved soon... I don't want to be the only one who loses sleep over their business site being "down"... makes me feel as helpless as having a sick child...

Sorry for my ranting - I'm all for innovation, but speed is the priority no matter what. Obviously uptime comes first - and THAT is why I'm upset.

What he said, Thank you Erictank.

[Seymore]

I began this to address something I didn't understand, and find that it is a bug. Well, this thread has been beneficial to show that SM is dropping the ball (IMPO) when it comes to implementing "features" (WE DON'T WANT BUGS) that members find beneficial. Don't forget staffers, if you keep it simple for the members, work ALL the bugs out before implementing new bugs, you'll not hear examples... as you are in this thread.

I, for one, think that you are missing the BIG PICTURE when it come to making changes. Think back to MS and their versions of DOS. Everyone knew when a major change happened. It changed the far left number and the right numbers, from the decimal point, were minor revs. You may want to consider re-evaluating your structure and implementation of updates. To date they appear to be hodge-podge as far as what they are and when they come. So, what REV are we on now? (any numbers?)

I do still like SM... but the bugs we regulars are :bash with, suc! Slow down and get your feet back underneath you. To many chefs spoil the broth and your paying customers will go looking for a better restaurant if things stay as they are. Even a restaurant with no cock-roaches has more clients than one infested!

[Seymore]

agree, I like the drop down.... but shouldn't it be sorted???
My question is "Why can't everything... CATs and SUBCATs included... be sorted". Is it really all that hard to put things in alphabetical order?

[Seymore]

Our queues have been backed up a little...it appears that the image you linked to is being displayed now.
And this would be because of...???

[Seymore]

[/LIST]Keep in mind that Dgrin (while growing rapidly) still represents a vocal minority of our customers. It is VERY skewed towards the more advanced users and especially Pros. The actual demographic of SmugMug users is very skewed in the opposite direction. Far more casual users than hardcore users.
And for this reason I think you are making things more complicated for the grandmas and non-techies to deal with. Make it to hard to use for the non-geek and you'll get them telling all of their friends, who will avoid you. Remember that one person tells 10 people about bad experiences. But good experiences rarely make it far...

Your goal... should you choose to accept it... is K.I.S.S. Change can be good. Drastic change, or problems/bugs, are not!

[Dbl]

Originally Posted by Ben

[/list]Keep in mind that Dgrin (while growing rapidly) still represents a vocal minority of our customers. It is VERY skewed towards the more advanced users and especially Pros. The actual demographic of SmugMug users is very skewed in the opposite direction. Far more casual users than hardcore users.


Don't you think that the large group of casual users are only MORE confused when as was said earlier they check their site every few months only to find the new gallery button is gone or photo bars appear, etc. I guess I find it hard to understand how these changes help the CASUAL users. Less change for casual users = less confusion. I know I started as a casual user, it is one reason I continued with Smugmug when I went pro, fast, easy to use with daily reliability. What happened to that site?

90% of my photo income comes from outside Smugmug, mainly in the form of packages and CD shots, posters. I just put in a very large order for Team and individual packages to WHCC. Order went in Friday, was on my doorstep on Monday, no cost on shipping by the way, and out to the teams Monday night. That is one example of how I as a small business owner can increase my sales, fast, prompt and reliable high quality products. My customers are thrilled. Photo packages make me money and a good amount at that! Smugmug doesn't want a piece of that action?

Coupons have been an often mention request, most big sales through my site are in the first week or two of an event, no surprise there, yet we have no inkling as to when we might see something that helps drive sales early.

Maybe Smugmug is biting off more than it can chew trying to cater to both power pro users and casual users. It would seem from your responses that you are trying to deal with your largest customer base the casual user, and the daily users of your site will just have to go with the flow. That may or may not be in your best interests, I am beginning to think it may not be in mine.

[Sheaf]

I think the "Powers that be" are missing a strong point here...

The new feature is quite simply awesome and I HIGHLY doubt anyone would really complain (much) about it IF (and I highly emphasize IF) it A) worked and B) worked FAST... and by 'worked fast' I mean, "didn't slow down or halt my site".
I agree, Eriktank. It was a fairly small feature compared to many other things we have released, but we still tested it internally as we do with every single change to the site. We thought we had it perfect and decided to release it. We were wrong and there were some bugs to work out. I don't know what else to say except that I'm very sorry. I was one of the individuals that tested and signed off on the feature.

We're not going to stop innovating and improving the site just because we are afraid of bugs. We are going to do our best to release them bug-free.

There's no question in my mind that smugmug is innovative and trying to adapt... it is disheartening to see new features appear without old things missing being addressed/fixed first (as mentioned in page 3 about the permissions while logged in and such) but as a savvy computer user (and I know not every photographer is) I love new bells and whistles... I just HATE them and COMPLAIN about them when they don't work, OR worse yet, make everything else not work too...
It's easy to say, "Fix all the bugs first, then release new features." We have an extensive, sorted, and ranked bug list that we are constantly updated on as a company. We care deeply about fixing them because we know how annoying bugs are.

Our main goal will always be to improve the site. Sometimes developer time is best spent fixing bugs. Sometimes it is best spent developing new features. We do our best, but there has to be some sort of balance there.

Sorry for my ranting - I'm all for innovation, but speed is the priority no matter what. Obviously uptime comes first - and THAT is why I'm upset. Speed (http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/05/15/speed-matters/) is a high priority for us as well, believe me.

Unfortunately, site issues occurring at a specific time are often confused with a feature released at the same time. Sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not. There's no excuse for site slowness, long queues, etc. But don't make the assumption that it is caused by a recent feature all the time.

I, for one, think that you are missing the BIG PICTURE when it come to making changes. Think back to MS and their versions of DOS. Everyone knew when a major change happened. It changed the far left number and the right numbers, from the decimal point, were minor revs. You may want to consider re-evaluating your structure and implementation of updates. To date they appear to be hodge-podge as far as what they are and when they come. So, what REV are we on now? (any numbers?)
Microsoft may have made a lot of money, but their customers are generally not too happy with them. I'd like to think we focus more on customers and less on money, so we won't likely be adopting Microsoft's business plans anytime soon and release SmugMug Ultimate 2007 Professional Release Version 4.326.

On a more serious note though, our product is vastly different than theirs. It's really hard, and in my opinion pointless, to give version numbers. Our Release Notes (http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/) accomplish just about the same thing, so I'm a bit confused as to why you want version numbers and what it would accomplish.

As to why the Release Notes have not been updated, a part of that reasons is that we wanted to give SmugIslands a bit of a soft launch so that it wouldn't affect site speed too much. It's a wonderful feature that no other photo sharing site has and our customers absolutely love it. But it wreaks absolute havoc on our hardware.

Don't you think that the large group of casual users are only MORE confused when as was said earlier they check their site every few months only to find the new gallery button is gone or photo bars appear, etc. I guess I find it hard to understand how these changes help the CASUAL users. Less change for casual users = less confusion. I know I started as a casual user, it is one reason I continued with Smugmug when I went pro, fast, easy to use with daily reliability. What happened to that site?
Quite frankly, the "add photos" button came down to making the site easier to learn for first-time users and adding a nifty feature for everyone. We found out that quite a few new users were confused about how to get started when they signed up. So we decided to make the process a little more user-friendly and also allow everyone to create new galleries from more locations on their SmugMug site.

I'm really quite happy with the button myself, aside from the bugs. It creates some more uniformity across the pages, provides a short-cut to creating galleries/photos, and generally improves the site. It's in the same spot as the "new gallery" button was and from what we hear in help emails, customers are really quite happy with it once they click on it and see what it does.

It would seem from your responses that you are trying to deal with your largest customer base the casual user, and the daily users of your site will just have to go with the flow.
It's funny how this comes back to us in so many different ways. Pro's complain that we release so many standard features. Standard users complain that we release so many pro features (http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/2006/07/28/new-features-july-28-2006/).

Again, we focus on making the site better as a whole. Sometimes it's a feature for everyone, sometimes it's a feature only Pro's get.

[Dbl]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. It didn't address some of mine and others questions on packages etc.....

Has there been any thought to seperating services with pros having something along the lines of a Printroom or Photoreflect type site, low on features, fast on speed? And the Smugmug we have now for your large customer base? I have no idea if it would be possible but I would be willing to pay a higher fee for features Smugmug does offer along with the features available with the other services (coupons, packages, etc.) if I could get a faster, stable fairly barebones type site. I know, I'm only asking for the perfect site:D

[iamback]

You can now use that button to add photos to any gallery on your whole SmugMug site. For many users, that saves clicks. Instead of navigating through the category and subcategory to get to the gallery and click "add photos", you can stay right on whatever page you're on and quickly add photos to any gallery. For many users, that makes a lot more sense. We found lots of people wanted to "add photos" and didn't get the hang of needing a gallery to add the photos to, and they didn't realize they actually had to be IN that gallery to find and "add photos" button.Ok, I hear what you and Ben are saying.

Still, I like the idea on my home page, but when I'm already in a gallery, then "add photos" makes sense to mean "add photos here". Only one click to the home page to the "more powerful" dropdown if I need to add photos somewhere else.

There's a user interface issue with the button though (not the one on the home page, the one on any other page): it looks just the same it did before, but behaves differently - that's confusing.

Not everyone is happy with every change, but please don't think we're adding features on a whim. We felt this made the site more powerful without complicating the interface. It's a lot easier for most people with lots of categories/subcategories/galleries to get their photos on SmugMug. And that's how we like it. :)If it really reduces help requests to your help desk, then fine, well done. But it looks a lot more complicated to me.

[Lex]

Please remember, the system is a "means to an end", it is not the "end". I've been here a short time (2-3 months), and labored intensively that first weekend figuring this out, and now, after I've learned what I need to do, it's changing? That is sooo not a good thing in less than 3 months.

We need a consistent interface and consistent performance, Lately, it seems we have neither. The other night I tried to copy/move some photos to other locations, it sat in the original location for not 1 but 15 minutes, then it was showing up in both places, deleted, it wouldn't go away, then tried to re-add, the next day I had like 3 or 4 copies of an image, it was just sooooo frustrating. I was giving time for updates to apply, but it shouldn't take all night!

Respectfully, if I pay over 100.00 for a pro account, I could give a flip about the standard consumer. I care about what care my account receives, and what performance it receives.

Vent off-

[Sheaf]

Still, I like the idea on my home page, but when I'm already in a gallery, then "add photos" makes sense to mean "add photos here". Only one click to the home page to the "more powerful" dropdown if I need to add photos somewhere else.

There's a user interface issue with the button though (not the one on the home page, the one on any other page): it looks just the same it did before, but behaves differently - that's confusing.


That's a good point and one we will certainly discuss. But here's the problem: if the "add photos" button works different everywhere else except the gallery page, isn't that more confusing? By having it function in a similar manner everywhere, I think it reduces the learning curve.

[Sheaf]

Please remember, the system is a "means to an end", it is not the "end". I've been here a short time (2-3 months), and labored intensively that first weekend figuring this out, and now, after I've learned what I need to do, it's changing? That is sooo not a good thing in less than 3 months.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but was the "add photos" button that large of an interface change? Did it really require that much effort to figure it out and slightly change how you create galleries and add photos?


Respectfully, if I pay over 100.00 for a pro account, I could give a flip about the standard consumer. I care about what care my account receives, and what performance it receives.

And they could give a flip about you. But we care about both and we often develop features for one, the other, or both.

[BeachBill]

It's one extra click in some cases, but it's a lot more power
It's "one extra click in ALL cases now", and that is what people are complaining about.

Reading this thread is sounds like the issue Smugmug was trying to address is casual users wanting to add photos to their site from the home page. Well, you fixed that by adding a new "Add Photos" button to the homepage. But then you took it one step further and usability took one step backwards when you changed the existing in-gallery add photos buttons. Thinking about this, I bet the same casual users that you were trying to help preferred the old functionality where the add photos button in the gallery would add the photos to the that gallery, no second questioning like you are doing now.

[iamback]

That's a good point and one we will certainly discuss. But here's the problem: if the "add photos" button works different everywhere else except the gallery page, isn't that more confusing? By having it function in a similar manner everywhere, I think it reduces the learning curve.Well, that's simple isn't it?

The "dropdown" button (on the home page only) would do a lot more than just allowing adding photos - as someone else remarked, this new button has a different function now, so it should be renamed. The "add photos" button (on every gallery page, not on the home page) would continue to have the same function (or rather get its original function back) so it would continue to have the same name.

I'll leave the naming of the "extended function" button as an exercise for you. :wink (Title attributes can of course assist in expanding a terse button name.)

[iamback]

Thinking about this, I bet the same casual users that you were trying to help preferred the old functionality where the add photos button in the gallery would add the photos to the that gallery, no second questioning like you are doing now.That would be my bet, too. Then again, as a former product manager I know that users can be ever so surprising, especially to developers. :rofl

I'd suggest that SmugMug carefully analyze the clickstreams following from the "add photos" buttons on gallery pages: what are they used for most? by what percentage of users? what type of users?

[Sheaf]

It's "one extra click in ALL cases now", and that is what people are complaining about.

That's not true. We gave shortcuts to people all over their SmugMug account to add photos and create galleries. If I'm browsing a gallery or category and want to add photos anywhere on my site, I now have that functionality.


Reading this thread is sounds like the issue Smugmug was trying to address is casual users wanting to add photos to their site from the home page. Well, you fixed that by adding a new "Add Photos" button to the homepage. But then you took it one step further and usability took one step backwards when you changed the existing in-gallery add photos buttons. Thinking about this, I bet the same casual users that you were trying to help preferred the old functionality where the add photos button in the gallery would add the photos to the that gallery, no second questioning like you are doing now.
Look up two posts, Beachbill. I believe the button should act the same or in a similar fashion all across a user's site. If someone gets used to clicking the button to create a new gallery or add photos to an existing gallery, what happens when they click it on a gallery page and didn't want to add photos to that specific gallery?

I, like you, want a consistent interface that functions in an intelligent manner all across my site. But I think many people here are getting upset at a minor change without thinking through the implications. The bugs, of course, made the issue a much hotter topic than it would have been otherwise.

[iamback]

I believe the button should act the same or in a similar fashion all across a user's site. If someone gets used to clicking the button to create a new gallery or add photos to an existing gallery, what happens when they click it on a gallery page and didn't want to add photos to that specific gallery?Now that's topsy-turvy isn't it?

SM: "We have one button" - so it should function the same everywhere
We: We (well, quite a few of us) want two types of functionality, one for the homepage (extended function) and one for othe pages (add photos here and nothing else) - so it should be two different buttons, not the same button with different behavior!

[BeachBill]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but was the "add photos" button that large of an interface change? Did it really require that much effort to figure it out and slightly change how you create galleries and add photos?

Actually yes, it is a big interface and usability change. Everytime I want to add photos now, I click the "add photos" button, then have to wait for the drop down to be populated and then find and click the "add to this gallery" link. Previously when in a gallery that you want to add photos to, you didn't have to give it much thought. Just click the button and start uploading photos. Now one has to wait... and then think...

But here's the problem: if the "add photos" button works different everywhere else except the gallery page, isn't that more confusing? By having it function in a similar manner everywhere, I think it reduces the learning curve.

Not at all. In fact if it anticipates what the user wants to do (add photos to the gallery they are currently in) then the learning curve is effectively reduced.

Here's a idea, someone already mentioned in another thread the since the add photos button is now a flyout/dropdown it's missing the little arrow to denote that fact. Why not take it a step further. When in a gallery, if the user clicks on the "Add Photos" part of the button, default to add photos to that gallery. If the user clicks on the arrow, open the flyout/dropdown.

[iamback]

Here's a idea, someone already mentioned in another thread the since the add photos button is now a flyout/dropdown it's missing the little arrow to denote that fact. Why not take it a step further. When in a gallery, if the user clicks on the "Add Photos" part of the button, default to add photos to that gallery. If the user clicks on the arrow, open the flyout/dropdown.Almost there... two functions on one button (hard to learn, hard to hit precisely for those who don't have perfect motor control...) ... aha! why not make it two buttons? Easier to learn (two buttons for two functions), easier to hit (larger surface for each)...

Oh wait, I suggested that before didn't I? :rolleyes

[BeachBill]

It's "one extra click in ALL cases now"That's not true.

Unless you can show me how I can add photos to the gallery I'm currently sitting in by clicking the Add Photos button without the new one extra click then it is true. No if, ands, or buts around it.

This is what the complaints are about. Either make the button intelligent or as Marjolein has suggested, make it two buttons and properly rename the new dropdown button on the homepage.

Look up two posts, Beachbill. I believe the button should act the same or in a similar fashion all across a user's site. If someone gets used to clicking the button to create a new gallery or add photos to an existing gallery, what happens when they click it on a gallery page and didn't want to add photos to that specific gallery?

So that was the support issue? Customers were complaining that they were clicking on the add photos button while in a specific gallery, but they didn't want to add photos to that gallery?

By the way, why is "create a new gallery" now hidden inside the "add photos" button?

[Eriktank]

I agree that the upgrade was well intended, but obviously not well received by the existing members... BUT...

Does anyone really think this matters at all if you can't GET TO your site to begin with? My site almost appears as if it's down it's so slow... I got confirmation it's not just my connection here at the place I'm at right now - it's elsewhere too... If I can't get to it - I know customers can't.

Anyone else NOT having this problem?? I just don't understand why it's been so slow since smug islands appeared... I don't even USE smug islands... *sighs*:scratch

[Andy]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. It didn't address some of mine and others questions on packages etc.....
We don't comment on future developments, we just don't. Packages, coupons and more have been requested by you and other pros. We've said in the feature request thread, and in answering other posts, that these are important features to us, and we'd love to have them on the site, but we've not been able to do them yet. They are on the radar though!

Thanks for the other input, too :D I'm curious, what do you feel our uptime has been?

[Dbl]

We don't comment on future developments, we just don't. Packages, coupons and more have been requested by you and other pros. We've said in the feature request thread, and in answering other posts, that these are important features to us, and we'd love to have them on the site, but we've not been able to do them yet. They are on the radar though!

Thanks for the other input, too :D I'm curious, what do you feel our uptime has been?

Ok I've heard that before, my only issue is if you go back to thread I pointed out this has been discussed for over two years. I am curious how far out the range is on your radar:D

I'm sorry you lost me on the uptime question, what specifically are you asking? The time it takes a site to load? Mine has been slow off and on all day. I clicked on someones site in the sports forum to see his baseball shots and after two minutes of the page not loading, gave up.

[Eriktank]

Hi Andy - thanks for the post - it's nice to see you're ontop of the threads as they run wild :)

As for the uptime question - it seems a bit of a trick question to me. Taking five minutes to load my site technically is still "up" even though it will lose me customers... :wink

I'm not sure what the local connection problem could be since my connection to other websites is stellar from either work or at home... but smugmug is ALWAYS slow... but lately unbarably slow. It's quite frustrating to pay for such an awesome site and not be able to use it...

I used to be a flickr member - I admit it - and I still can load hundreds of thumbnails in just a second or two on a flickr page... snap your fingers and the page completes... I've never had that with smugmug and now it's gotten terribly worse.

Sadly, I'm not trying to rant or complain, I want to help - I want the problem fixed and I'm not the kind of person who likes to sit idly while someone does it for me... if there's something else I can do besides tracert's - please tell me. It seems like the few traceroutes I've seen all go through different servers even up to the main hera server. Does this mean you have multiple ISPs to your front end server? That very well could be the problem...

Maybe I should start a new thread asking for the network guy's detailed info on how things are setup so we can clash network heads together... just let me know what I can do besides sit around and watch my webpage slowly slowly slowly load... :dunno

[Andy]

Hi Andy - thanks for the post - it's nice to see you're ontop of the threads as they run wild :)

As for the uptime question - it seems a bit of a trick question to me. Taking five minutes to load my site technically is still "up" even though it will lose me customers... :wink

I'm not sure what the local connection problem could be since my connection to other websites is stellar from either work or at home... but smugmug is ALWAYS slow... but lately unbarably slow.
We don't like to hear this - because it's fast for most - and these issues are the hardest to pin down. Let's start with a few things:

1) do you experience slowness at home or at work?
2) who is your ISP?
3) can you give us a traceroute from you to us? (holler if you need instructions).

[simplykristi]

Sheaf's right... You can add photos to your galleries from virtually any place on SM.

I would like a little advanced warning when changes are going to take place. It's only common courteous to your customers, especially those of us who pay.

The first time I used the site after the add photos change surprised me because I was having a hard time pulling up the pull-down menu. Now I don't seem to have too many problems. I like the change because the pull down menu shows all my categories and galleries.

Overall, I am happy with SM, even in times of slowness.

[Eriktank]

Hi Andy - no one wants to hear their site is slow :) I understand that...

1) I have slowness 98% of the time... the other 2% happens to be between slowness runs... like I MIGHT get lucky and have a page with half a dozen thumbs appear at a normal speed... then I keep clicking and get to wait another minute or two.

2) Here at work my ISP is Illinois Century Networks - at home I use Mediacom High Speed Internet (8mbs cable line).

3) See the thread here - where I have already provided the tracert:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=572047#post572047

As I said in that thread - at some points of the day - just pinging hera.smugmug.com I can't get any better than 500ms... sometimes ranging up to 2 or 3 seconds (2000-3000ms)...

According to the trace routes I have from home and work - I connect to you through a shawcable.net service... However, other people who complained about the speed and posted their trace route info went through gblx.net's service to your site... Just wondering how that is setup I guess...

As always, thanks in advance!

[Andy]

Hi Andy - no one wants to hear their site is slow :) I understand that...

1) I have slowness 98% of the time... the other 2% happens to be between slowness runs... like I MIGHT get lucky and have a page with half a dozen thumbs appear at a normal speed... then I keep clicking and get to wait another minute or two.

2) Here at work my ISP is Illinois Century Networks - at home I use Mediacom High Speed Internet (8mbs cable line).

3) See the thread here - where I have already provided the tracert:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=572047#post572047

As I said in that thread - at some points of the day - just pinging hera.smugmug.com I can't get any better than 500ms... sometimes ranging up to 2 or 3 seconds (2000-3000ms)...

According to the trace routes I have from home and work - I connect to you through a shawcable.net service... However, other people who complained about the speed and posted their trace route info went through gblx.net's service to your site... Just wondering how that is setup I guess...

As always, thanks in advance!
Hi Erik - your traceroutes look fine. I'm now wondering about firewalls, plugins, add-ons or some other type of software that could be degrading things for you. Anything spring to mind?

[denisegoldberg]

...the "add photos" button came down to making the site easier to learn for first-time users and adding a nifty feature for everyone. ...So we decided to make the process a little more user-friendly and also allow everyone to create new galleries from more locations on their SmugMug site.

I'm really quite happy with the button myself, aside from the bugs. It creates some more uniformity across the pages, provides a short-cut to creating galleries/photos, and generally improves the site. It's in the same spot as the "new gallery" button was and from what we hear in help emails, customers are really quite happy with it once they click on it and see what it does.
I just added some photos, and I have to tell you that the new "add photos" functionality made me very happy. It was great not to need to navigate to the gallery first. I simply opened my home page, used the "add photos" button to specify where I wanted to load my photos, and loaded away. Awesome.

Thanks.

--- Denise

[Sheaf]

I agree that the upgrade was well intended, but obviously not well received by the existing members... BUT...
Well, I can tell you that it's just not the case. I see four or five posters here on Dgrin upset about it (and a few that love it), but we have had an overwhelmingly positive response from help emails. Generally, they have gone something like this, "Where did the new gallery button go?" followed quickly a minute later by, "Woops! I clicked add photos and found out. That's really neat!"

I learned very early on in statistics that voluntary responses are much more likely to come from people with strong opinions (very pro or very con) than from people who don't care very much.

Let me ask you this: If the feature had no bugs and was quick (thus requiring at most one extra click and a few extra seconds), would it be a big deal?

Unless you can show me how I can add photos to the gallery I'm currently sitting in by clicking the Add Photos button without the new one extra click then it is true. No if, ands, or buts around it.

Ahhhh semantics. Allow me to show you how it can actually reduce the number of clicks: You take photos and go to your site to upload them to an existing gallery. Before: you have to click through and find the gallery and then click the button (depending on your site set-up, requiring up to four or five clicks). After: you just click "add photos" on your homepage and then click the gallery.

This is what the complaints are about. Either make the button intelligent or as Marjolein has suggested, make it two buttons and properly rename the new dropdown button on the homepage.
I assure you, it's something we will discuss. But there is quite a bit of sense in having the button work in a similar manner all across SmugMug sites. Adding a new button for basically the same functionality just to get rid of a single click is not an option. We are trying to simplify things, not complicate them.

[DavidTO]

Being among the many happy SmugMug users, I'll add this only to the conversation.

We are much less persistent.

[renstar]

followed quickly a minute later by, "Woops! I clicked add photos and found out. That's really neat!"

That is pretty bad interface design. Why does "add photos" add a gallery? A user should never be surprised by a function as seemingly obvious as "add photo". Also, keep in mind, your customer had to waste his or her time emailing you to ask about it. That should be your hint that something is wrong, or could at least be done better. The customers second email is not a hint that something is correct.

I really think smugmug needs to hire a user interface expert. There are a few things that are like this that either have no affordance (the photobar..where is the clue to the user that it even exists) or have an incorrectly labeled affordance (this button).

-r

[Eriktank]

Personally I don't even use the button - I use the smugbrowser (PROPS DEVBOBO!!)...

Perhaps something like an organizer should be added instead of the simple task that seems to be confusing people...

It seems like the new button has it's strengths but even I think it should have been added as a seperate button, not changing an existing button and how it works - not just for the new comers but for the veterans who obviously liked their "old ways"...

Like I said - I don't even use the button either way... probably never will - but still... I don't see a notice or announcement in my control panel about it either... which could be adding to the confusion, no?

[iamback]

That is pretty bad interface design. Why does "add photos" add a gallery? A user should never be surprised by a function as seemingly obvious as "add photo". Exactly. So why is it still called "add photos"?

Try coming up with a single name that actually describes the multiple things it does... Anyone?

[Eriktank]

Organize

[iamback]

OrganizeOh, so it does moving and copying and deleting and renaming as well? I didn't think so.

[Eriktank]

Hey - submit a feature request... by replying to you - I was in agreeance with you... no need for sharp teeth :)

[iamback]

Hey - submit a feature request... by replying to you - I was in agreeance with you... no need for sharp teeth :)Sorry, no sharp teeth intended - just light sarcasm. Guess I'd better go to bed ... :yawn

[Eriktank]

Hi Erik - your traceroutes look fine. I'm now wondering about firewalls, plugins, add-ons or some other type of software that could be degrading things for you. Anything spring to mind?

Andy - no I use IE 7 and FF 2.0.0.4 and both take forever to load my page... I'm not using any plugins or toolsbars at all in IE7. Firewalls turned on or off doesn't change my ping latency.... since other sites work fine that do or don't use java.... I don't think it's anything on my machine (especially since I can use multiple different machines and it behaves the same way on all of them)... anything else?

[cdonovan]

I guess my concern over the past week or so is the speed...or I should say...lack thereof

Uploading 10 photos at once, even at their highest res in my opinion should not take an hour.....and it does...I'm on dsl so I know it's not my internet connection.

I understand that sm is always developing and designing and trying to stay on top and for that I really appreciate what they do...your base is very solid...however the last few "updates" seem to be very frivilous, and not very astounding and absolutly no wow factor attached...for me anyway.

I guess I am just sore cause my canadian customers have to shop in us dollars....:rolleyes a request that is cried for by many...users and shoppers a like and has been tossed aside as not a priority......:cry makes me wonder if the techies behind the scenes are really more interested in keeping smugmug cute, than trying to help drive sales........

[BeachBill]

Well, I can tell you that it's just not the case. I see four or five posters here on Dgrin upset about it (and a few that love it), but we have had an overwhelmingly positive response from help emails. Generally, they have gone something like this, "Where did the new gallery button go?" followed quickly a minute later by, "Woops! I clicked add photos and found out. That's really neat!"
Note that I have no problem with the new button on the home page (except perhaps it could be named better). I think it's great and is a great idea. It's the change to the button in the individual galleries we are talking about.

Let me ask you this: If the feature had no bugs and was quick (thus requiring at most one extra click and a few extra seconds), would it be a big deal?
I'm not aware of any bugs, if there were any they were fixed before I noticed the button had changed. The only "delay" is in having to look for the second "add to this gallery" link, moving the mouse there, then clicking the second time.

Ahhhh semantics. Allow me to show you how it can actually reduce the number of clicks: You take photos and go to your site to upload them to an existing gallery. Before: you have to click through and find the gallery and then click the button (depending on your site set-up, requiring up to four or five clicks). After: you just click "add photos" on your homepage and then click the gallery.
Perhaps if that's how I worked. It seems you are assuming everyone always starts at the homepage, which as I mentioned previously is probably based on the "casual user" support issue of "how to I add photos to my site?". Remember the new button on the home page is a very nice feature!

In reality here is how I work. First I always have a tab opened to my most frequently used sites, including one tab for my Smugmug site. I go to the gallery I'm going to upload to, if I'm not already there. I've got the gallery set to thumbnails so I can review which photos I've already uploaded.

Next I start (or resume) my post processing routine:

1) PP a few photos
2) upload them
3) while #2 is going, repeat #1

So in my "before", I click "add photos" once each time I do #2. "After" I have to click "add photos" twice.

I sincerely hope this gives a little bit of insight into how at least one "non-casual" smugmug user works and reveals why the change to the add photos button in the individual galleries is getting a little bit of resistance.

Adding a new button for basically the same functionality just to get rid of a single click is not an option. We are trying to simplify things, not complicate them.
I applaud you for trying to simplify things :clap, unfortunately this change (to the gallery add photos button) does just the opposite and that's what some of us are trying to point out. :deal

By the way, why does the "5 easy ways to add photos" page seem to come almost every time now since the "add photos" button change? It used to come up every once in awhile but now it seems to ask every time, so that's another click... :rolleyes

[peestandingup]

I havent commented in a while, but im gonna comment on this.

Do I think SM is trying to do too much? Yes, absolutely. Is it affecting their service? Yup. What can they do? FOCUS.

I mean, some of the new stuff is OK, but a lot of it is just unnecessary. It started with the maps. It was an OK idea, but it made our sites run like crap. So anything that makes your site slow & jerky just shouldnt be implemented in the first place, I dont care how cool or modern it is. And it really wasnt that useful for a photo site. Sure, we could have just "turned it off", but thats a cop out. How long before were turning off 10 "features" & keeping only 5 of the good ones on?

I think you guys are great, thats why im posting this. Stop, take a breath for a moment & focus. Innovate, but do it when its needed. Dont just do things because you can. Like themes. There are TONS of themes. Some of them are great, but a lot are corny & mediocre. Why not have a few that are really good & scrap the others?

Choices are good, but too many & it just becomes cluttered. Im not a paying customer anymore, so I cant be too judging. But thats just some of the reasons why I decided to leave. Features are great, just as long as they work properly & are useful for your site content so you dont have a bunch of pissed off photographers trying to be web developers, turning off features they dont want with html coding.

[Wireless]

Andy - no I use IE 7 and FF 2.0.0.4 and both take forever to load my page... I'm not using any plugins or toolsbars at all in IE7. Firewalls turned on or off doesn't change my ping latency.... since other sites work fine that do or don't use java.... I don't think it's anything on my machine (especially since I can use multiple different machines and it behaves the same way on all of them)... anything else?
I don't have a ton to add here, other than I've examined both of your traceroutes from/to your home/work networks and they look fine. Your site loads super snappy for me on my Mac with FireFox 2 (our datacenter is 2ms away from my desk).

You asked earlier how we select a path/network back to you and our customers and why they might differ... We don't do anything special, just let Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) select based on its algorithm. Unfortunately if a particular path is having problems, BGP isn't intelligent enough to recognize and avoid it. We have 13 upstream providers, and 7 Gigabit connections, so everyone's mileage may vary.

[Andy]

It started with the maps. It was an OK idea, but it made our sites run like crap. So anything that makes your site slow & jerky just shouldnt be implemented in the first place, I dont care how cool or modern it is. And it really wasnt that useful for a photo site.
Thousands of customers, lots of cool mappers, and
The NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/travel/10pracphoto.html?_r=2&ref=travel&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) seem to think otherwise.

Sure, we could have just "turned it off", but thats a cop out. How long before were turning off 10 "features" & keeping only 5 of the good ones on?
Choice is good, and I like how we give folks the choice to have, or not have, a map. Or a featured gallery. Or a bio. Or, or, or. Choice, ahh, that's nice :D

[Eriktank]

I hate to say this (since I love smugmug) but did anyone else check out the zenfolio site above? EDIT: on page 8

THAT IS FAST. Instantenous picture changing... it went as fast as I could click my mouse.

What do I have to disable on smugmug to get that kind of speed? I want my customers to have the ability to visit and order and feel safe... I really want smugmug to get fixed - I don't want to leave!!

[Eriktank]

Andy - I love smugmug for the choices - totally agree. But I need speed first :)

Can you point me to a thread that has some sort of topological layout of your server setup? I remember reading in the help pages about how the images are stored in three or four different locations and they are all interconnected, etc... is there still only one front end server that redirects all traffic? Or do you have some special router that determines the least traffic to one of those three/four locations and redirects traffic accordingly?

[Seymore]

I havent commented in a while, but im gonna comment on this.

Do I think SM is trying to do too much? Yes, absolutely. Is it affecting their service? Yup. What can they do? FOCUS.

I mean, some of the new stuff is OK, but a lot of it is just unnecessary. It started with the maps. It was an OK idea, but it made our sites run like crap. So anything that makes your site slow & jerky just shouldnt be implemented in the first place, I dont care how cool or modern it is. And it really wasnt that useful for a photo site. Sure, we could have just "turned it off", but thats a cop out. How long before were turning off 10 "features" & keeping only 5 of the good ones on?

I think you guys are great, thats why im posting this. Stop, take a breath for a moment & focus. Innovate, but do it when its needed. Dont just do things because you can. Like themes. There are TONS of themes. Some of them are great, but a lot are corny & mediocre. Why not have a few that are really good & scrap the others?

Choices are good, but too many & it just becomes cluttered. Im not a paying customer anymore, so I cant be too judging. But thats just some of the reasons why I decided to leave. Features are great, just as long as they work properly & are useful for your site content so you dont have a bunch of pissed off photographers trying to be web developers, turning off features they dont want with html coding.
Well stated Kerry... :thumb

[Seymore]

Thousands of customers, lots of cool mappers, and
The NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/travel/10pracphoto.html?_r=2&ref=travel&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) seem to think otherwise.
Oh, the NYT has an account here? ...I didn't think so! Come on Andy... I'm seeing thru this smoke-n-mirrors. NYT is just reporting what they are told. Without experiencing this from the users POV, it's all just a crock!!!

[Andy]

What do I have to disable on smugmug to get that kind of speed? I want my customers to have the ability to visit and order and feel safe... I really want smugmug to get fixed - I don't want to leave!!Erik, your site is performing instantly for me, in all respects. You don't need to disable anything, IMO. We do need to figure out why your route to SmugMug is not as fast as others though.

[Andy]

Oh, the NYT has an account here? ...I didn't think so! Come on Andy... I'm seeing thru this smoke-n-mirrors. NYT is just reporting what they are told. Without experiencing this from the users POV, it's all just a crock!!!
Hi Seymore, ouch, I'm so sorry that I've upset you by giving a link to the NY Times. The cool thing is, many, many folks love our mapping function. Thousands use it. We get mail about it all the time :) But I can only think of one, actually two customers that have ever told me that they don't like this feature.

Choice, choice is good.

Again, I'm sorry that I've upset you so much tonight.

[Eriktank]

Erik, your site is performing instantly for me, in all respects. You don't need to disable anything, IMO. We do need to figure out why your route to SmugMug is not as fast as others though.

Thanks Andy - it's good to know that I don't have to change anything... I haven't changed anything in over a month or two - I like it just how it is... maybe I could update some themes to work with my navbar, but still :)

I've been to client's homes, and I've tried it from businesses locally too... either my entire community has a bad connection to just smugmug, or something else is directing traffic to us poorly... two of my clients that have similar "downtime" traffic problems use SBCGlobal.net DSL service... I'm on the only massively large cable provider here - and businesses around here (John Deere's headquarters for example - yes they've got massive bandwidth) has issues getting to my site.

Here's something else to consider - when I log into my site, it never shows I'm logged in (after I click the "return to the page you were just viewing" link... I have to refresh the browser for it to use the logged in cookie (or so it seems is the case)... after a refresh - it loads and all my extra options are there... but is that normal? I get that after changing any settings that redirect me to the page I was just viewing too... have to always do a refresh... the reason I ask - it takes forever to do a refresh now :)

[Wireless]

Andy - I love smugmug for the choices - totally agree. But I need speed first :)

Can you point me to a thread that has some sort of topological layout of your server setup? I remember reading in the help pages about how the images are stored in three or four different locations and they are all interconnected, etc... is there still only one front end server that redirects all traffic? Or do you have some special router that determines the least traffic to one of those three/four locations and redirects traffic accordingly?
Onethumb has blogged (http://blogs.smugmug.com/don) about our setup, at least as much as we're going to publicly state for security and/or competitive reasons.

Amazon stores the photos for us in three different geographic locations, in addition to our own local [to our datacenter] caching. We still maintain equipment (that being clusters of web, upload/image processing, storage, and database servers plus all the network goodies to meld it all together and monitor/administer it) of our own to control access and provide the user experience. There is very little "one" of anything still in existence that isn't on a short list to be replaced or bolstered in the next week. The total number of servers are three digits overall, so I always smile when I see "is the server overloaded?"

[Wireless]

I've been to client's homes, and I've tried it from businesses locally too... either my entire community has a bad connection to just smugmug, or something else is directing traffic to us poorly... two of my clients that have similar "downtime" traffic problems use SBCGlobal.net DSL service... I'm on the only massively large cable provider here - and businesses around here (John Deere's headquarters for example - yes they've got massive bandwidth) has issues getting to my site.
I have seen an entire geographic location get impacted by one upstream provider. It's very unusual, and it's usually to an area that's not that populated (i.e. Montana once a month or so ago). Massive bandwidth aside (and hey, we have massive bandwidth too! :wink ), if a link in between is bad, it's going to be slow.

Can you get me some sample IP addresses please? I'd love to trace back to them to help identify where the choke point might be. Feel free to email them into support if you aren't comfortable posting them here.

Thanks.

[Seymore]

Hi Seymore, ouch, I'm so sorry that I've upset you by giving a link to the NY Times. The cool thing is, many, many folks love our mapping function. Thousands use it. We get mail about it all the time :) But I can only think of one, actually two customers that have ever told me that they don't like this feature.

Choice, choice is good.

Again, I'm sorry that I've upset you so much tonight.
Well, come on Andy... Think about it. You're just listing things that show SM in good light. I doubt if NYT has ever interviewed any of the users who have contributed to this thread or had issues that regular power users see on a regular basis.

I'm not upset so much as I'm seeing thru what you're trying to portray here and calling you to the carpet on this issue of you quoting a biased source. Not to professional of you there Andy. Looks like I may need to communicate with the NYT and see if they want "the rest of the story" now that you've opened that door.

And I'm starting to get tired of this thread and the inability of SM to listen to some of the input users about all the problems "WE" are seeing lately. After all, if you bloat SM enough, you'll not have any power users left. Change can be good... But simple is better. It it ain't broke, why did SM keep trying to fix it? ...and fix it? ...and fix it again? OH... keeping up with the Jones's? Well, the neighbors can have more "features". But if they are slower and don't listen to their users, eventually they will have no users. Sounds like sheep going over a cliff to me...

[mpmcleod]

The total number of servers are three digits overall, so I always smile when I see "is the server overloaded?" :nono
That should be a frown. The reason people are asking that question is the overall performance is not meeting their expectations.

I love the helpful dgrin board and the responsiveness of the staff but the service itself still leaves a LOT to be desired. Google has blazing speed regardless of where I am in the world and how I am conected to the internet (DSL, dial-up, T1, etc.) and smugmug is almost always slow. I have had repeated emails from family asking to verify my site name or if I have taken the site down because they cannot get to the pictures.

The ONLY things I need in a photo hosting site is ROBUST and FAST.

I also agree with some of the other posters that new "features" should be optional. I just get my family trained on the site (e.g how to get originals) and SM goes and messes with it again.

BUT I could live with weird additional content if the site could get and stay functional and stay FAST! It can take 5-10 MINUTES to create a gallery. Never mind looking at photos or uploading. Many days I just start loading the gallery and go to bed. THIS is what needs to be fixed. Stop playing with new code and get this most basic problem addressed.

[peestandingup]

Thousands of customers, lots of cool mappers, and
The NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/travel/10pracphoto.html?_r=2&ref=travel&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) seem to think otherwise.
Choice is good, and I like how we give folks the choice to have, or not have, a map. Or a featured gallery. Or a bio. Or, or, or. Choice, ahh, that's nice :D Thanks for replying, Andy.

But, I didnt see the NY Times saying any positive or negatives things about it either way, so thats a bit of a stretch. Basically they were just reporting that a few sites are experimenting with it with you guys & Flickr being the most prominent ones. And lets face it, Flickr & Smugmug ain't the same thing. Not dissing Flickr, but its geared around the myspace/facebook/blogging crowd who wants to be part of a photo community, which that mapping feature is perfect for. I dont know many high-end people who seriously use it. Not saying everything has to be all serious & professional, but if it sucks it sucks, no matter who you are.

And I clicked on Flickr's map site (http://flickr.com/map) & also the John Higham (http://higham.smugmug.com/) site mentioned in the article. Both were DOG SLOW to load & John's was jerky as hell when scrolling around. Im not saying the feature wont be useful someday, but its just not there & not even close to being widely adopted. Especially if its that hard to get the GPS tags in your photos & no real cameras support it yet.

Again, just because you can don't mean you should.

[Andy]

Well, come on Andy...

OK Seymore. We are listening and we are all following this thread, as we do always on Dgrin. Thanks so much for your input, we truly do value it.

[Andy]

Google has blazing speed regardless of where I am in the world

Last time I checked, Google had a few more data centers, computers, routers, and vaults full of cash than we do.

Not trying to make light of things, just a reality check. Network speed, and system speed, is incredibly important to us. For the most part, far and away most folks experience SmugMug really, really fast. I'm sorry you aren't. Know this: Wireless, our Director of Operations, works incredibly hard day and night to improve things for everyone. It's a constant battle. We'll get there, for you, too.

http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/05/15/speed-matters/

Thanks for posting!

[BeachBill]

Here's something else to consider - when I log into my site, it never shows I'm logged in (after I click the "return to the page you were just viewing" link... I have to refresh the browser for it to use the logged in cookie (or so it seems is the case)... after a refresh - it loads and all my extra options are there... but is that normal? I get that after changing any settings that redirect me to the page I was just viewing too... have to always do a refresh... the reason I ask - it takes forever to do a refresh now :)

I see this all the time (the part about it not showing I'm logged in without a refresh or browsing to a gallery, not the slowness issue). I believe it's a caching issue with Smugmug's setup. I've never said anything about it because it's not a big issue to me.

[mpmcleod]

Last time I checked, Google had a few more data centers, computers, routers, and vaults full of cash than we do.
Good point. Not exactly an apples to oranges comparison. :)

But it does mean that my connection(s) to the internet are not the bottleneck. My connection at work regularly gets 10-20 Mbps to Seattle, WA from Houston, TX. Home a lot less (2.2 Mbps) but still quite good. Also its not just me - my in-laws in Abilene, TX; my brother-in-law and his wife in the Ukraine; my sister in Ft. Worth, TX; my parents in Beaumont, TX - all using different ISPs BTW. Each has problems with my site being very slow and send me email or call me asking about the site.

Is there a way to measure render speed? The total time it takes for SM to process our request for a page, read the various databases, build the page and return the complete page with all content?

Or an easy way for SM to measure time to create a gallery? Why is this taking so long?

I want to browse galleries quickly and I want to start the upload process quickly. I can deal with uploading pictures taking a long time as I am one of the lazy ones that upload as soon as I download from the camera.

Maybe something is wrong with my site?

thanks again

[Ben]

Thanks for replying, Andy.

But, I didnt see the NY Times saying any positive or negatives things about it either way, so thats a bit of a stretch. Basically they were just reporting that a few sites are experimenting with it with you guys & Flickr being the most prominent ones. And lets face it, Flickr & Smugmug ain't the same thing. Not dissing Flickr, but its geared around the myspace/facebook/blogging crowd who wants to be part of a photo community, which that mapping feature is perfect for. I dont know many high-end people who seriously use it. Not saying everything has to be all serious & professional, but if it sucks it sucks, no matter who you are.

And I clicked on Flickr's map site (http://flickr.com/map) & also the John Higham (http://higham.smugmug.com/) site mentioned in the article. Both were DOG SLOW to load & John's was jerky as hell when scrolling around. Im not saying the feature wont be useful someday, but its just not there & not even close to being widely adopted. Especially if its that hard to get the GPS tags in your photos & no real cameras support it yet.

Again, just because you can don't mean you should.

Just because a feature isn't useful to you, doesn't mean it isn't useful to plenty of other people. You can take away my maps over my dead body. I use them for every trip I take now and love them. It gives so much more depth to my travel.

There are a lot of galleries that are just.... "flat" when they are in gallery form. Add geographical significance and they take on a whole new meaning. I understand that you don't "get" that, but it doesn't mean it is a worthless feature.

I have just recently obtained the ability for all of my photos to be automatically geotagged, which makes it even more awesome. Within months, every major camera on earth will be able to do that. Though currently it is pretty darn easy to stich geo data into your photos automatically using software, and we have plenty of people doing that as well.

I also don't really see where we have ever forced anyone to use it. Don't like it? Great... turn it off.

[Andy]

Is there a way to measure render speed?
Try fasterfox, it's a plugin for Firefox. Also firebug, another plugin for Firefox.

[Eriktank]

How come after the fasterfox counter gets up to 20+ seconds, the page finally appears and starts to load and it stops counting and lists 0.320s or 0.480s or such... ? Am I missing something? I don't need a stopwatch to get an accurate reading from my end right now :) It's really slow - definately not hundredths of a second... that normal?

[peestandingup]

Just because a feature isn't useful to you, doesn't mean it isn't useful to plenty of other people. You can take away my maps over my dead body. I use them for every trip I take now and love them. It gives so much more depth to my travel.

There are a lot of galleries that are just.... "flat" when they are in gallery form. Add geographical significance and they take on a whole new meaning. I understand that you don't "get" that, but it doesn't mean it is a worthless feature.

I have just recently obtained the ability for all of my photos to be automatically geotagged, which makes it even more awesome. Within months, every major camera on earth will be able to do that. Though currently it is pretty darn easy to stich geo data into your photos automatically using software, and we have plenty of people doing that as well.

I also don't really see where we have ever forced anyone to use it. Don't like it? Great... turn it off. Never said I didnt "get it", I said I think it could be useful some day. But the implementation of it right now is poo poo & brings the site navigation down a few levels in terms of speed & overall responsiveness.

Dont mind that? Great, go for it. All I was saying is that SM should practice a bit of patience when it comes to implementing features like this & exercise more taste. The fact that you can "turn it off" is beside the point. With that logic, they could release 100 new features with 50 of them being crap & that would be just fine. Hey, just turn them off, right? ;-)

[dmc]

I like the new "Add photos" menu.... actually, it is such a quick view of my site that I'd like to be able to navigate to my galleries this way as well :wink

Can someone comment on whether the lists can be sorted? I keep mentioning it, but the discussion keeps going back to click counting... :dunno

[jfriend]

I like the new "Add photos" menu.... actually, it is such a quick view of my site that I'd like to be able to navigate to my galleries this way as well :wink

Can someone comment on whether the lists can be sorted? I keep mentioning it, but the discussion keeps going back to click counting... :dunno

Making this a navigation option on your home page could be a really cool option. It would make getting to a nested spot in the site a lot, lot quicker because you wouldn't have to load each interveing page. I'd have to see it and play with it to know it was a good idea, but it seems like it's worth trying. See my post here (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=44268&page=8#306)for some ideas on where else in the site to use this new category/gallery picker.

[Andy]

Can someone comment on whether the lists can be sorted? I keep mentioning it, but the discussion keeps going back to click counting... :dunno
I'm sorry dmc... it sure is draining, isn't it?
I'll ask about sorting and see.

[pyrtek]

Looks like I may need to communicate with the NYT and see if they want "the rest of the story" now that you've opened that door.

Yeah, I'm sure The New York Times are just dying for this scoop.
It is destined to later be known as "The Story of the Century". Puh-leeze.

[Andy]

Hi Seymore,

I have received your first Private Message - and then your 2nd message after my response to you. Since, in your 2nd message to me, you indicate that you will not respond to any more PMs "since it's a total waste of time" I will reply here.

Seymore, respectfully, I disagree with your statement that we don't listen to our customers.

And I'm starting to get tired of this thread and the inability of SM to listen to some of the input users about all the problems "WE" are seeing lately.
We have an open, public record of doing just the opposite :) It's how we've grown. We are a transparent company that seeks input, and acts on it. Just look at the discussions around: Lightbox (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=27337), January of 2006 - well, our fist iteration of this feature was not so good (and that's being kind!)... after tons a feedback, we got that feature right; SmugMug Ajax (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=51218) - we put out a full Beta Version and for 6 weeks sought customer feedback - and made many, many changes based on that direct feedback; Don't Want Photos To Be Public (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=6021). SmugIslands came out of this discussion.

These are just a few of the more visible ones, there are countless more. I'll stand us up against any company out there, as a company that listens to our customers. But you must remember, we can't possibly do everything that every customer says. We have far more folks telling us how happy they are with the new Add Photos button, than there are those that are telling us the opposite. I'm sorry it's not making you happy.

You told me that you would leave SmugMug if we continue to do things the way we've been doing them - we don't want you to go, but we won't stop innovating, and we won't stop listening to our customers, either.

I'm really, really sorry that this feature has upset you so much. I wish I had a better answer for you on this, one that would make you happy.

I hope this helps.

[Allen]

Instead of "add photos" change the button to "add thingies".:D Then in the
drop have add photos, add gallery, add category and add sub-cat. Then you
wouldn't have to explain that adding cats and sub-cats are deep in the
control panel which I see answered many times.

[iamback]

Instead of "add photos" change the button to "add thingies".:D:rofl I reckon that's about the only possible non-wordy description that actually describes what the thing does. Title attribute attribute could then be used to sum up which "thingies" can be added with it.

Congrats, that's really creative.

[renstar]

Instead of "add photos" change the button to "add thingies".:D Then in the
drop have add photos, add gallery, add category and add sub-cat. Then you
wouldn't have to explain that adding cats and sub-cats are deep in the
control panel which I see answered many times.


Maybe "Add Gallery/Photos"? or even better... "Add Content"?

[BeachBill]

Here's something else to consider - when I log into my site, it never shows I'm logged in (after I click the "return to the page you were just viewing" link... I have to refresh the browser for it to use the logged in cookie (or so it seems is the case)... after a refresh - it loads and all my extra options are there... but is that normal? I get that after changing any settings that redirect me to the page I was just viewing too... have to always do a refresh... the reason I ask - it takes forever to do a refresh now :)
Just a followup on this. Perhaps it should go in a new thread, or be added as a bug in the wiki.

When you first log in and go to your home page, if you look at the source, you will notice the "loggedIn" attribute is not there. "loggedIn" doesn't appear until you either refresh the page or browse to a gallery within your site.

After first logging in:
body onload=" smugLoad();" class="homepage bodyColor_Black"
div id="homepage" class="homepage bodyColor_Black"

After a refresh or browse to another smugmug page, "loggedIn" is now available:
body onload=" smugLoad();" class="homepage loggedIn bodyColor_Black"
div id="homepage" class="homepage loggedIn bodyColor_Black"

Note: you must log out, clear your cache and restart your browser before attempting to duplicate this otherwise it appears you will get a cached version of your logged in homepage and therefore won't see the issue.

[dragon300zx]

STOP ALREADY!!!!!

Is right. Common Seymore lets not get into a junior level _______ contest here so lets not talk about years in the industry or accomplishments cause I can guarantee you there are people here who can out do you.

So let’s get to the bottom of this thread.

You posted originally because you had a problem with a new feature where there was an actual bug in the system. Thank you for bringing that bug to smugs attention as who knows how long it would have gone unreported. Thanks to your mentioning it, the bug was found, and fixed right away. Just one example of smugmug listening to its customers. Then let’s see, the smug islands, why, another example of smugmug listening to its customers (wow they really must not pay attention to your requests eh). Proof Delayed shipping (they listened), the new upload applications (why that’s listening to their customers again), switching to S3 and upgrading hardware when a customer announced there was going to be a HUGE upload of his photo's, Changing the titles on photos in the shopping cart when we didn't like how they were called a couple years ago, upgraded visitor stats, comment notification, Backprinting, Custom Watermarking, and I could go on but I'm at work right now and don't have that much time.

Your upset because not everything you have said you wanted got done right away. You’re upset because your opinions aren't treated as though they are absolutely the best thing since sliced bread. Well lets face it Seymore, Smug has a team that has developed it from a nothing company when .com's where dying, into a profitable, reliable, raved about .com. That alone, not to mention my examples show that they listen to their customers. No not everything we request is done as quickly as we would like (I'm still waiting on my photo packages Andy :dragon ) but if you know anything about software and website development you know that sometimes the things that look easiest are the most complicated to accomplish. After all one misplaced " in the code could shut everything down. Smug is a privately held company, they don't have to listen to their customers at all if they don't want to, instead they strive to offer the highest level of customer service as possible. What qualifies me to make these statements (seeing as you seem to like to know that). I am an IT director, software I have designed and worked on developing, a network I have completely designed and implemented, Updates and Upgrades I decide on and other the other responsibilities my job entails are responsible for running a multi-million dollar company that supports some of the biggest companies in the world (in industries like aerospace defense, the automotive world, government, manufacturing, etc). If that doesn't qualify me to understand the troubles smug faces nothing will.

I think you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and look at the bigger picture. Smug has thousands of customers. They have to listen to everyone, take the suggestions that they feel will benefit the most amount of people, and then try to implement them in the best way possible with causing the least amount of down time to our sites. No one can make everyone happy all of the time, it's just not possible. But smug does it's best to accomplish that. And it is a privately held company, they do have competitors, and they aren’t holding you hostage. They even admit that they can’t be the one solution that everybody needs.

I am not an employee of smugmug, I am a volunteer who believes in their services and products so much that I give of my time to help them on this forum. I believe in their services so much I have two accounts with them. There are things I am not happy with, there are things that I love. If I’m not happy with something I talk to them about it and they work on a solution (with or without any further input from me). Some solutions happen right away, some solutions take longer. As an IT pro you should understand how things need to be prioritized and how not everyone see’s priorities in the same order. You see your requests as number one. But remember you are user 254 of 543,230 (figure made up in my head). Take a chill pill and look at the big picture and you should be able to understand this.

[BeachBill]

actually, it is such a quick view of my site that I'd like to be able to navigate to my galleries this way as well

Excellent idea! :thumb

A navigation button that appears on every page (perhaps call it "Jump To") would be excellent. It could be made available to both the site owner and end user (could be hidden by owner just like most other things).

Can someone comment on whether the lists can be sorted?

And yes, PLEASE sort the gallery lists alphabetically everywhere they are displayed (including the move photos to gallery function). :thumb

[Mike Lane]

You can take my maps when you pry them from my cold dead fingers.

Or something like that. Living in the UK away from family in the US, I'm finding that the maps feature is letting family live out my son's life more than just about anything else I've ever seen. They can see when pics were taken AND know exactly where. They can see the table we were sitting at when we fed the boy in Bath, UK. They can see the field where we were nuzzled by a half-dozen cute as heck, tiny horses. My family loves it. I know other people feel the same way about it.

If you don't like it, no sweat. Hidden! You don't even have to look at it at all if you don't want. How that could cause someone heartache is beyond me. :dunno

[cwphotos]

Well at the risk of sounding like im joining the gang against the naysayers but I have to. I pretty much agree with what Dragon said a few posts up. Plus one thing I dont think people realize is that the internet is all about the next guy in line. I mean from one coast to the other your traffic may hop 20-30 times. You are relying on all those in between to work just as well....when in fact some just suck. Please dont give me the BS about oh i've IT for 50 years and I know its not the case because im in IT as well and know its the case. We deal with it every day. When im at home my uploads to SM suck but its because of my cable line, on works T-1 its insane (2 gigs up in 4-5 hours) but that isnt smugmugs fault.....or would you say it is?

Arguing on the net is dumb so im going to stop and say SM isnt always a pretty rainbow but they sure the heck beat out the sucktastic alternatives on the net. :thumb

[Cason]

We haven't had this in awhile...

CUTE PUPPY BREAK!

[Seymore]

And to echo what other have said here... Sad that SM insist on complicating things by making changes to their system and FORCING photographers to detract from taking PICs and with dealing with a WEB development. After all, shouldn't changes be transparent to the users and allow them to do what they want? ...SHOOT PICS!!! Seems like SM is forgetting what the site is for... hosting images, not end user WEB development. If I wanted that I'd get my own domain name and another host where I could custom build a WEB site. Seems SM is forcing the users to accept changes that the minority want. To bad the majority doesn't speak up.
SAD!

Let me refresh SMs memory on why we pay for this service...

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/158282094-L.jpg

Get it together guys... I don't want to debug or do anything in WEB development. That is your job.

I WANT TO TAKE STILL IMAGES!!!



"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening.
But this wasn't it."
-- Groucho Marx

[dragon300zx]

And to echo what other have said here...
I WANT TO TAKE STILL IMAGES!!!

Seems someone isn't getting the bigger picture still. You may not want all of these changes, but many users do, and many users find them usefull. Again you are seeing a small cross section (a handfull really) and thinking that is all of smug's users. I don't know what user account level you have, but even with all of the changes for the most part you can still do the basic type stuff really easily. You don't have to get into the page custimization if you don't want to. They don't force people to do it.

But then again you sigend up with smugmug for a reason right. Otherwise you'd be using one of their lesser competitors.

You had one problem where you found a bug, smug thanked you, and fixed it right away. That right there is muting most of what you are saying. I don't know what bug you got this week, but your making claims based on the fact that your word isn't taken as god. Thats kinda reality though. 1 of thousands. Big picture.

[Mike Lane]

I WANT TO TAKE STILL IMAGES!!!


:scratch What's stopping you?

[jfriend]

Get it together guys... I don't want to debug or do anything in WEB development. That is your job.
This thread has gotten way, way out of hand. It's turned into a Smugmug-bashing thread and lost little a logical context.

Smugmug should not have serious bugs in their new features. That is clearly their fault and they would agree with that in regards to this issue. That should not be an indictment againt evolving the site with new features, but rather should be an indictment of a weakness in their testing process that needs to get fixed.

On the other hand, there is no such thing as a service that you can freely customize with any random HTML and CSS that is 100% independent from the natural evolution of the site as they add new features. That is theoretically impossible. If they massively limited the kinds of customizations you could do (think about a limited number of checkboxes in a web form and no custom HTML or CSS), then it would be possible for them to do this, but when users have free reign to change the look of their site in any way possible as their heart desires, it is NOT possible for Smugmug to both deliver you new features and fully insulate you from the effects of those new features. They can try to be smart about how they change things to limit the effect as much as possible, but if they change one thing in the page, it will break someone who has done major customizations. That is just a fact of life.

So, there are only four possible stable points I know of:

1) Smugmug stops adding any new features. Your site never changes. You just stay happy with the features you have today, can customize the hell out of your site and are never forced to change anything. Of course when a competitive site rolls out some new feature that appeals to you, you won't have it here.

2) Don't customize your site or don't customize it beyond very simple things (this is the camp I'm currently in) so your site is not likely to break as it receives new features.

3) You go get your own hosting and run your own photo software (like coppermine) and you only take upgrades/new features when you want to.

4) You go along for the ride with Smugmug. You regularly get new features. Smugmug improves its ability to communicate possible design effects on the site to its customers, improves its ability for customers to "beta" new revs before they go live and improves its testing process so fewer mistakes are made. If you do lots of customization, you will have to regularly modify some of those customizations. If you don't do lots of customization, it shouldn't be any work to stay current.

We all know that 1) won't work for Smugmug as a business. You have to evolve the feature set of the site or die.

Option 2) should work for anyone who chooses that.

Option 3) is always an option if you want to totally control your environment.

Option 4) is something that I think Smugmug should consider getting better at.

[peestandingup]

You can take my maps when you pry them from my cold dead fingers.

Or something like that. Living in the UK away from family in the US, I'm finding that the maps feature is letting family live out my son's life more than just about anything else I've ever seen. They can see when pics were taken AND know exactly where. They can see the table we were sitting at when we fed the boy in Bath, UK. They can see the field where we were nuzzled by a half-dozen cute as heck, tiny horses. My family loves it. I know other people feel the same way about it.

If you don't like it, no sweat. Hidden! You don't even have to look at it at all if you don't want. How that could cause someone heartache is beyond me. :dunno Oh, sweet Jesus. One more time. I DID NOT say that the feature couldnt be useful. IT CAN BE. All im saying is that the feature isnt ready for prime time & that it makes the page its implemented on slow, jerky & not as responsive overall. Not just a little bit either. Its noticeable.

Saying that thousands of people use it everyday doesnt make something good. Hundreds of thousands of people use myspace too & its terrible.

Im talking about sacrificing speed & responsiveness for a feature that is just so so right now. OK?

Mike, you of all people should know what im talking about.

[Mike Lane]

Mike, you of all people should know what im talking about.Not so much Kerry, sorry. My son's page is using a map and it's got no speed problems that I or any of my family members have seen. :dunno Maybe you're going on old information or something?

[Harryb]

Seems SM is forcing the users to accept changes that the minority want. To bad the majority doesn't speak up.
I hate to break this to you but I think you are in the minority here. I think most users like the changes. I saw them and said "OK, cool".

[pyrtek]

Hundreds of thousands of people use myspace too & its terrible.


Not to those hundreds of thousands of people. That's kind of the point being
made here.

[caroline]

To bad the majority doesn't speak up. SAD!

Seymore
We generally don't speak up because WE ARE the 'silent' majority:D
Generally we see no need to voice our opinion because we are content with it, and maybe we don't want to extend what maybe we see as a pointless thread any further. Maybe our perspective on life is just different to yours.
It is not SAD.
May you have some peace soon:D

Caroline

[ChuckWC]

Maybe "Add Gallery/Photos"? or even better... "Add Content"?
I was going to suggest something very similar: "Add Photos or Gallery". There's ample room to make the button wide enough to say all that.

As a software developer, I learned long ago that it's better to spell things out so even the most non-computer person will get it. I don't think "Add Content" would be clear enough (many people wouldn't realize that you'd be able to create a new gallery with such a button).

After reading this whole thread, I think the "Add Photos" button issue could be improved like this:

1. Make it more descriptive: "Add Photos or Gallery"
2. Add a down-arrow or an ellipse at the end to indicate that more follows: "Add Photos or Gallery v" or "Add Photos or Gallery..."
3. Make the pop-down menu appear as soon as the mouse hovers over the button instead of waiting for a click (thus saving the initial click).

I hadn't even noticed the change on the home page since I haven't added any new galleries lately, but I must admit I probably would've been confused looking for the "new gallery" button if I hadn't read this thread! Doubtful it would've occurred to me to use the "add photos" button to add a new gallery. So, a better description for that button would definitely help.

[cwphotos]

I like the happy puppy break pic. Made me smile. :D

[renstar]

To try and get this thread back on track..


As a software developer, I learned long ago that it's better to spell things out so even the most non-computer person will get it. I don't think "Add Content" would be clear enough (many people wouldn't realize that you'd be able to create a new gallery with such a button).
Agreed. Assumptions that users will "get it" cause far more problems than they are worth. From the comments by employees here, it seems that non-computer users are their primary audience, so yes, it definitely needs to be spelled out.


After reading this whole thread, I think the "Add Photos" button issue could be improved like this:

1. Make it more descriptive: "Add Photos or Gallery"
2. Add a down-arrow or an ellipse at the end to indicate that more follows: "Add Photos or Gallery v" or "Add Photos or Gallery..."

I think both of these are necessary.


3. Make the pop-down menu appear as soon as the mouse hovers over the button instead of waiting for a click (thus saving the initial click).

On hover popovers in things that arnt obviously navigation bars are annoying. Hell, they are annoying even in a nav bar. My mouse has buttons to indicate that i want an object to perform an action. Moving the mouse around the screen should not trigger any interface (photobar...). Im not too worried about the extra click.

-r

[AnneMcBean]

Here's a question:

Previously, SmugMuggers needed to know that in order to add photos, they had to first create a gallery. So, it made perfect sense to make "new gallery" and "add photos" two distinct functions. As Ben pointed out, there was major confusion on this point. It seemed nobody wanted to click that "new gallery" button, because what they REALLY wanted to do was just put their photos on SmugMug to share.

So I'd like to know, how often do SmugMuggers create a gallery for a reason other than adding photos?

When I log in to SmugMug with fresh photos I do the following:

1) Say to myself: "Ah, I'd like to add these photos to my SmugMug site".

2) Look for an "add photos" button (now available on any page).

3) Then, I need to decide whether I want to add photos to an existing gallery or create a new gallery for these photos. One click, and I've made my choice.

Creating a gallery is the means to an end. The way I see it, the whole reason you're creating a gallery is because you'd like to "add photos". Prior to this change, we already took you straight to the uploader of choice immediately after creating a new gallery.

In my mind, it's similar to the "buy this photo" button. That button actually only adds the photo to the cart, because buying it entails selecting shipping, entering billing information, confirming the order etc. But you click "buy this photo" because you'd like to purchase the photo. :D

I click "add photos" because that's what I'd like to do... add photos, even if I need to create a new gallery to do it!

Am I missing something? It seems to me like this is a change that'll take our existing SmugMug customers a few minutes (days maybe?) to adjust to, but it speeds up the process without significantly changing the way things work.

And for new customers, and old customers who think like I do, we can now "add photos" easily from anywhere.

-Anne

[Allen]

Just have the button say "Add things".:D Fairly simple and
understandable. Could even add category and sub-cat there
which are buried in the control panel now.

[Harryb]

Here's a question:

Previously, SmugMuggers needed to know that in order to add photos, they had to first create a gallery. So, it made perfect sense to make "new gallery" and "add photos" two distinct functions. As Ben pointed out, there was major confusion on this point. It seemed nobody wanted to click that "new gallery" button, because what they REALLY wanted to do was just put their photos on SmugMug to share.

So I'd like to know, how often do SmugMuggers create a gallery for a reason other than adding photos?

When I log in to SmugMug with fresh photos I do the following:

1) Say to myself: "Ah, I'd like to add these photos to my SmugMug site".

2) Look for an "add photos" button (now available on any page).

3) Then, I need to decide whether I want to add photos to an existing gallery or create a new gallery for these photos. One click, and I've made my choice.

Creating a gallery is the means to an end. The way I see it, the whole reason you're creating a gallery is because you'd like to "add photos". Prior to this change, we already took you straight to the uploader of choice immediately after creating a new gallery.

In my mind, it's similar to the "buy this photo" button. That button actually only adds the photo to the cart, because buying it entails selecting shipping, entering billing information, confirming the order etc. But you click "buy this photo" because you'd like to purchase the photo. :D

I click "add photos" because that's what I'd like to do... add photos, even if I need to create a new gallery to do it!

Am I missing something? It seems to me like this is a change that'll take our existing SmugMug customers a few minutes (days maybe?) to adjust to, but it speeds up the process without significantly changing the way things work.

And for new customers, and old customers who think like I do, we can now "add photos" easily from anywhere.

-Anne

Sounds right to me and pretty much describes my approach to Smugmug

[jfriend]

Here's a question:

Previously, SmugMuggers needed to know that in order to add photos, they had to first create a gallery. So, it made perfect sense to make "new gallery" and "add photos" two distinct functions. As Ben pointed out, there was major confusion on this point. It seemed nobody wanted to click that "new gallery" button, because what they REALLY wanted to do was just put their photos on SmugMug to share.

So I'd like to know, how often do SmugMuggers create a gallery for a reason other than adding photos?

When I log in to SmugMug with fresh photos I do the following:

1) Say to myself: "Ah, I'd like to add these photos to my SmugMug site".

2) Look for an "add photos" button (now available on any page).

3) Then, I need to decide whether I want to add photos to an existing gallery or create a new gallery for these photos. One click, and I've made my choice.

Creating a gallery is the means to an end. The way I see it, the whole reason you're creating a gallery is because you'd like to "add photos". Prior to this change, we already took you straight to the uploader of choice immediately after creating a new gallery.

In my mind, it's similar to the "buy this photo" button. That button actually only adds the photo to the cart, because buying it entails selecting shipping, entering billing information, confirming the order etc. But you click "buy this photo" because you'd like to purchase the photo. :D

I click "add photos" because that's what I'd like to do... add photos, even if I need to create a new gallery to do it!

Am I missing something? It seems to me like this is a change that'll take our existing SmugMug customers a few minutes (days maybe?) to adjust to, but it speeds up the process without significantly changing the way things work.

And for new customers, and old customers who think like I do, we can now "add photos" easily from anywhere.

-Anne

Anne, I don't think this whole issue is all that big a deal, but you are oversimplifying the use cases that should be considered in a design. You are only describing some of the use cases. Here are all the use cases I see:

New user with no galleries wants to add some photos to their site
New user with a few galleries wants to add some photos to their site and will want them in a new gallery
User wants to add photos to an exisiting gallery
User wants to create a gallery and configure it's settings in advance of adding any photos (something all users who want protection or security on their images will do)
User wants to create several galleries (e.g. all the galleries for a specific event) and configure their settings before starting any uploads.
User who never adds photos through Smugmug's HTML pages because they use a third party uploader and thus all they do in Smugmug's interface in this regard is create galleriesYou have optimized the design for use cases 1-3. You've made it slightly less intuitive and, in some cases, a few more clicks for use cases 4-6 by taking the creating gallery function out of the top level. Whether you did this knowingly or not, you should not be surprised if people who primarily fall into use cases 4-6 like the new UI less than the old UI.

You are correct that everyone can do what they want and everyone in use cases 4-6 can adapt even if it's an extra click or two. You (Smugmug) just have to be sure you have the right usability trade-off (you did force a trade-off with this design change) for your customer base as a whole. And, you shouldn't be surprised, offended or defensive when people who fall into use cases 4-6 like the new design less. You have slightly compromised their experience in favor of the other use cases.

I personally fall into use case 6 (I use StarExplorer), but the extra click to add a gallery is not a big deal to me.

[DavidTO]

StarExplorer won't add galleries? I don't use it (since I'm not running windows), but that's one of the things I love about SmugBrowser, is that you can set up galleries through it. I'm surprised that StarExplorer doesn't allow you to do that.

[Eriktank]

I've found even the newest smugbrowser doesn't save the settings properly to a newly created gallary... I always end up doing it manually to save the public/private/originals/watermark/etc on it... I've never tried starexplorer... anygood?

[jfriend]

StarExplorer won't add galleries? I don't use it (since I'm not running windows), but that's one of the things I love about SmugBrowser, is that you can set up galleries through it. I'm surprised that StarExplorer doesn't allow you to do that.

StarExplorer does allow you to create galleries. Because the API has constantly been behind the feature set of the site (not exposing all gallery options), it has usually been the case that I couldn't create and configure the galleries the way I wanted in StarExlorer so I have been creating galleries through the Smugmug site, then doing my uploads in StarExplorer.

For example, just recently I wanted to create a whole bunch of galleries with SmugIsland settings set a particular way. StarExplorer does not support that. I could create them all in StarExplorer, then go finish configuring them in Smugmug, then come back to StarExplorer to upload the images, but that didn't seem any eaiser than creating one in Smugmug, setting it up the way I wanted, saving a "quick settings" rule for it, then creating the rest in Smugmug, assigning the quick settings as part of the create process.

[Allen]

StarExplorer won't add galleries? I don't use it (since I'm not running windows), but that's one of the things I love about SmugBrowser, is that you can set up galleries through it. I'm surprised that StarExplorer doesn't allow you to do that.
StarExplorer does add galleries, serveral galleries, cats and sub-cats.

[DavidTO]

StarExplorer does add galleries, serveral galleries, cats and sub-cats.


That makes more sense. :D

[devbobo]

I've found even the newest smugbrowser doesn't save the settings properly to a newly created gallary... I always end up doing it manually to save the public/private/originals/watermark/etc on it... I've never tried starexplorer... anygood?

Erik,

Can you please bug the specific issues in my SmugBrowser thread ?

Thanks,

David

[devbobo]

StarExplorer does allow you to create galleries. Because the API has constantly been behind the feature set of the site (not exposing all gallery options), it has usually been the case that I couldn't create and configure the galleries the way I wanted in StarExlorer so I have been creating galleries through the Smugmug site, then doing my uploads in StarExplorer.

John,

I think part of the reason here, is that Nik has remained on version 1.1.0 of the API. New features haven't been added to version 1.1.0 for some time. API versions 1.1.1 and 1.2.0 should be fully in sync with the site as it currently stands.

Cheers,

David

[georges]

For all the yelling and screaming in this thread, this is just not such a big deal.

An experienced user figures the button out in about 10 seconds. To an inexperienced user the button probably looks just fine.

I'd say let's get on with other things.

[mpmcleod]

Try fasterfox, it's a plugin for Firefox. Also firebug, another plugin for Firefox.

Thanks again Andy.

That is cool.

My main page takes 5.8 seconds and PhotosByDate (http://mpmcleod.smugmug.com/PhotosByDate) gallery takes 9 seconds.

There are only 10 photo images on my PhotosByDate page.

[Sheaf]

PhotosByDate (http://mpmcleod.smugmug.com/PhotosByDate) gallery takes 9 seconds.



0.630 seconds for me. But I have a small advantage, of course. :wink

[Andy]

Is it really all that hard to put things in alphabetical order?
Nope. In fact, we just did, go check.

[BeachBill]

Nope. In fact, we just did, go check.
So that's what happened. Did you notice the "add photos to this gallery" is now missing.

[Andy]

So that's what happened. Did you notice the "add photos to this category" is now missing:
? I'm not following :)

[caroline]

Nope. In fact, we just did, go check.
Andy,
Thats so neat, Well done Smugmug.
I had no probs anyway with how things were but this is very good:D

Caroline

[BeachBill]

? I'm not following :)

Sorry, I meant "gallery" not "category"...

[jfriend]

Sorry, I meant "gallery" not "category"...

Ohh ohh, The ability to "Add photos to This Gallery" is indeed missing right now. Andy, can you point this out to the team?

[Eriktank]

Erik,

Can you please bug the specific issues in my SmugBrowser thread ?

Thanks,

David

Yup yup... done. Sorry for not thinking of that to begin with! :devbobo

[devbobo]

So that's what happened. Did you notice the "add photos to this gallery" is now missing:

Bill/John,

This should be working properly now :thumb

David

[dancorder]

Nope. In fact, we just did, go check.

That makes me disproportionately happy :barb

[papajay]

You Smugmug people just keep innovating and innovating!... and responding to what customers ask for (sometimes very quickly...and sometimes it takes a bit longer, but seems to eventually "get there")!
WHEN will it ever stop???? NEVER, I hope! :D

My SmugIsland is working perfectly now, and I love it! :barb

Very nice that you got the alpha-sort on the new ADD button done so quickly, also. :thumb

[Andy]

You Smugmug people just keep innovating and innovating!... and responding to what customers ask for (sometimes very quickly...and sometimes it takes a bit longer, but seems to eventually "get there")!
WHEN will it ever stop???? NEVER, I hope! :D

My SmugIsland is working perfectly now, and I love it! :barb

Very nice that you got the alpha-sort on the new ADD button done so quickly, also. :thumb
Thanks Papajay :D

[iamback]

When I log in to SmugMug with fresh photos I do the following:

1) Say to myself: "Ah, I'd like to add these photos to my SmugMug site".

2) Look for an "add photos" button (now available on any page).

3) Then, I need to decide whether I want to add photos to an existing gallery or create a new gallery for these photos. One click, and I've made my choice.

(...)

Am I missing something? It seems to me like this is a change that'll take our existing SmugMug customers a few minutes (days maybe?) to adjust to, but it speeds up the process without significantly changing the way things work.Yes, you're missing one thing: the thought process may not be like your 1-2-3.

For me, it can go like that, but it also can go somewhat like this:
I want to show something about <fill in subject> - "subject" becomes gallery name I start hunting around for photos that match "subject" - "subject" now becomes (abstract) "gallery", already containing my selection of photos Now I go to SmugMug to add that gallery (photos and allIn this process, the "gallery" already exists in my mind, with a specific collection of photos, before I even log om to SmugMug - at which point clicking an "add gallery" button really is the most logical thing to do!

I don't (necessarily) look at a photo and think "now where shall I add that?", I'd sooner think of a gallery (a subject), and consider "which photos shall I fill it with?".

The point is: there is no one single process. Different people have different processes, in different circumstances. A good user interface caters to different thought processes and different work flows.

[Sheaf]

I don't really understand here. What is the gripe? You want two separate buttons there, one for "add photos" and one for "new gallery?"

And even though one button can cover both functions, you would rather have two? That's less complicated for users?

[iamback]

I don't really understand here. What is the gripe? You want two separate buttons there, one for "add photos" and one for "new gallery?"

And even though one button can cover both functions, you would rather have two? That's less complicated for users?Yes (as I've suggested before). To buttons for two functions.

[dmc]

...I'll ask about sorting and see.
Yay, the menu sorting has been done! :clap

I really like these expandable menu's, hopefully other areas will benefit from this technology as well. (like replacing the current unsorted gallery select dropdown in the Move Photos screen)

thanks!

[Allen]

I don't really understand here. What is the gripe? You want two separate buttons there, one for "add photos" and one for "new gallery?"

And even though one button can cover both functions, you would rather have two? That's less complicated for users? One button is great but it says "add photos". If it said "add things" it would in
a lot of minds be more then just add photos. Also I'd like to see "add
category" and "add sub-category" added in the drop also. They are buried
deep in the control panel and have seen many questions that they can't find
them.

:hide:D

[Sheaf]

Yes (as I've suggested before). To buttons for two functions.

I have to admit, I just don't understand that desire at all. The new button handles both functions elegantly and quickly. Why clutter up the pages and add a second button?

The button was added for two reasons:

#1 - New users didn't know that all photos had to be in a gallery and that creating a gallery was the first step to adding photos. Now, they click "add photos" and are taken through the process.

#2 - Adding photos to an existing gallery was cumbersome, especially if your site was designed around keywords/timeline/etc. rather than categories and galleries.

Frankly, I absolutely love the button. I have a keyword cloud on my homepage and my galleries are hidden in my Control Panel. Not only can I quickly and easily add photos to an existing gallery from many places on my site, but I can also get a nice visual of how my galleries are organized into categories and sub-categories.

Occasionally it requires a single extra click for me to do something, but I actually have to click a lot less often on average.

I guess I just can't understand why 4 or 5 people here think we pulled a Microsoft Bob. At the very worst, you have a single extra click and a few extra seconds spent (once the bugs were fixed).

[jfriend]

John,

I think part of the reason here, is that Nik has remained on version 1.1.0 of the API. New features haven't been added to version 1.1.0 for some time. API versions 1.1.1 and 1.2.0 should be fully in sync with the site as it currently stands.

Cheers,

David
Please see this post/thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=574202&postcount=565). Nik seems to think that a whole bunch of options are missing from the latest API. Among them:
Geography
Appearance
Photorank
True/Auto color
Proof Days
Backprinting
Quicksettings

[BeachBill]

Is it really all that hard to put things in alphabetical order?

Nope. In fact, we just did, go check.

I was hoping you had one function that returned the list of galleries and that one function was changed to sort the list before returning it.

It appears this isn't the case as the gallery list drop down on the move photos page is still unsorted. Can you sort that one too, and any other place where we are provided a list of galleries to choose from?

[sskoutas]

Nope. In fact, we just did, go check.

:clap

[jfriend]

I was hoping you had one function that returned the list of galleries and that one function was changed to sort the list before returning it.

It appears this isn't the case as the gallery list drop down on the move photos page is still unsorted. Can you sort that one too, and any other place where we are provided a list of galleries to choose from?

Sorting would be better than what we have now, but what we really need is the hierarchical gallery picker like the add photos button has. Because of my event photography, I have around 300 galleries, many that have the same name. I can't tell which is which is a flat list of just gallery names. So, I need some category/sub-category info in order to be able to use the UI efficiently. It would be great to add the gallery picker from the Add Photos button to the Move Photos interface. Way more efficient. Already sorted. Removes any ambiguity for like-named galleries. Lots nicer looking.

[Andy]

Yay, the menu sorting has been done! :clap

I really like these expandable menu's, hopefully other areas will benefit from this technology as well. (like replacing the current unsorted gallery select dropdown in the Move Photos screen)

thanks!
I think {JT} has more plans for these types of menus, yeah :thumb

[devbobo]

Please see this post/thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=574202&postcount=565). Nik seems to think that a whole bunch of options are missing from the latest API. Among them:
Geography
Appearance
Photorank
True/Auto color
Proof Days
Backprinting
Quicksettings

John,

I replied in Nik's thread. All those settings are available and have been for sometime.

Cheers,

David

[jfriend]

John,

I replied in Nik's thread. All those settings are available and have been for sometime.

Cheers,

David

Cool. Thanks.

[Andy]

Because of my event photography, I have around 300 galleries, many that have the same name. I can't tell which is which is a flat list of just gallery names.
You should have some new joy with the add photos menus now, have a look.

I know we were supposed to stop and all, but ....

:wave

[Nikolai]

StarExplorer does add galleries, serveral galleries, cats and sub-cats.
Thanks, Allen:-) :thumb
Yes, S*E does all that (and then some:-)
And I think I finally caught up on API 1.1.1, so all the latest bells and whistles are there (backprinting, smugislands, etc.). Just get the latest version from www.starexplorer.com

[Nikolai]

John,

I replied in Nik's thread. All those settings are available and have been for sometime.

Cheers,

David
For the record: all those are supported now. :deal
(except for the quicksettings)