Input on new camera

[USAIR]

I am looking to buy a new camera -- 20d my budget is about $4000. (maybe a little more selling my 717)

Here's my thoughts (all prices from B&H)
20d - $1499
2gb cf - $194
24-70 f/2.8L usm $1139 ---Question here.. what is the difference between inported lens and USA lens money wise it's about $100 ?

That leaves $1168 for big zoom for birds and sports --any suggestions here ?

B&H has a kit 20d,2g cf and 18-55 usm for $1664 but I am just not sure of that lens.

Thanks
Fred

[cmr164]

I am looking to buy a new camera -- 20d my budget is about $4000. (maybe a little more selling my 717)

Here's my thoughts (all prices from B&H)
20d - $1499
2gb cf - $194
24-70 f/2.8L usm $1139 ---Question here.. what is the difference between inported lens and USA lens money wise it's about $100 ?

That leaves $1168 for big zoom for birds and sports --any suggestions here ?

B&H has a kit 20d,2g cf and 18-55 usm for $1664 but I am just not sure of that lens.

Thanks
Fred
www.adorama.com (the other B7H :deal )

EOS 20d -- $1,359.95
24-70 2.8L - $1,119.95

For Canon products the difference between USA and Gray is unimportant for Nikon and other brands there have been serious warranty issues.

It is like to raise all sorts of religious hatred but I strongly recommend a 4G microdrve for $189.95. A 2G card just isn't big enough and the failure rates for 8 billion transisters is not really that much better than a platter and head.

Ordering from Adorama leaves you with a slightly more 1330.15 which is very very close to th Adorama price for the Canon 100-400L, 1369.95

[gus]

I strongly recommend a 4G microdrve for $189.95. A 2G card just isn't big enough and the failure rates for 8 billion transisters is not really that much better than a platter and head.


I was wondering just that charles. I know from a thread way back that baldy got caught out with Micro drive. But i have been caught out with SD cards also.

What do the pro's use now ?

I ask that because the dig camera world changes every 5 mins.

[USAIR]

www.adorama.com (http://www.adorama.com/) (the other B7H http://www.digitalgrin.com/images/smilies/deal.gif )

EOS 20d -- $1,359.95
24-70 2.8L - $1,119.95

For Canon products the difference between USA and Gray is unimportant for Nikon and other brands there have been serious warranty issues.

It is like to raise all sorts of religious hatred but I strongly recommend a 4G microdrve for $189.95. A 2G card just isn't big enough and the failure rates for 8 billion transisters is not really that much better than a platter and head.

Ordering from Adorama leaves you with a slightly more 1330.15 which is very very close to th Adorama price for the Canon 100-400L, 1369.95I have another 2g cf ...my thinking is not to put all my eggs in one basket
but I will look into the micro drive also

Looked at Adorama site can only find 4 canon lens ?

Thanks
Fred

[pathfinder]

I have another 2g cf ...my thinking is not to put all my eggs in one basket
but I will look into the micro drive also

Looked at Adorama site can only find 4 canon lens ?

Thanks
Fred
Adorama should have a full Canon catalog set of lenses. I don't think I've seen one I couldn't find there if B&H carried it too

[DavidTO]

When I was checking the price on the 20D, B&H's published price was 1499, but when you added it to your cart it was 1399. Check it out.

[cmr164]

I have another 2g cf ...my thinking is not to put all my eggs in one basket
but I will look into the micro drive also

Looked at Adorama site can only find 4 canon lens ?

Thanks
Fred You looked at "digital slr lenses" and there are just the 4 EF-s lenses. Look at SLR lenses and the entire Canon line is there.

The Microdrive is inside all those 4G Ipods and take a lot of punishment. I have used them for more than 5 years (2 x 340M, 2 * 1G, one 4G) and they are all still in service.

One of the big Euro news agencies uses only microdrives... I was trying to search rec.photo.digital for the reference and could not find it but here is a testiment to the microdrive's durability (http://www.impactdigitals.com/bios/biggart/biggart.htm)

[luckyrwe]

I have dropped CD cards. With microdrives that is usually the end of that.

[cmr164]

I have dropped CD cards. With microdrives that is usually the end of that.
The non-operating microdrive is rated for 2000G. I don't think I ever generated 2000 G dropping anything, let alone something as light as a microdrive. But you know a 4G drive comes out of the camera half as often as a 2G drive so you chance of dropping is way lower.

[luckyrwe]

How much spin down time does the drive need?

[cmr164]

How much spin down time does the drive need?
You aren't seriously imagining that the drive is ever spinning outside the camera? :rofl

[dkapp]

The thing that kept me away from the microdrives is read & write speed. Maybe they've improved from the days of my IBM 340mb, but it was & still is painfully slow compared to my CF cards.

Dave

[luckyrwe]

When you shut down the camera, the drive shuts down. But does it take one second? Ten seconds? Computer hard drives have to spin down too, and it is basically a computer hard drive. It is a moving part, or rather many moving parts. I guess you can say it is an infinite number more moving parts than the CF card. :D

dkapp, the new drives are 166x speed!

[cmr164]

The thing that kept me away from the microdrives is read & write speed. Maybe they've improved from the days of my IBM 340mb, but it was & still is painfully slow compared to my CF cards.

Dave
That always was a camera firmware problem and not a microdrive problem. It is only the 40x CF cards that caught up to the actual speed of the microdrives. The Kodak Pro dslrs were always fastest with microdrives and the 1DMII is pretty good. The D30, D60, D300, D10 are just busted.

[luckyrwe]

...But you know a 4G drive comes out of the camera half as often as a 2G drive so you chance of dropping is way lower.
Hmmm. Yesterday I shot 51MB worth of pictures and the card came out. The day beore I shot 1.2GB and I removed the card to upload. The statement you made is true only if you fill up the card before removing it.

I guess it is all the moving parts and the words "hard drive" that make me want to use kid gloves. I have had hard drives crash on me, but I cannot recall the last time I had a strip of bad RAM. There is a lot to be said about solid state.

[Andy]

fred, take a look at www.onecall.com they have super prices usually, and when you join their pass program (free) you get an add'l 1% off. i've done a bit of shopping there over the past year, and i can recommend them.

fwiw

[USAIR]

You looked at "digital slr lenses" and there are just the 4 EF-s lenses. Look at SLR lenses and the entire Canon line is there.

The Microdrive is inside all those 4G Ipods and take a lot of punishment. I have used them for more than 5 years (2 x 340M, 2 * 1G, one 4G) and they are all still in service.

One of the big Euro news agencies uses only microdrives... I was trying to search rec.photo.digital for the reference and could not find it but here is a testiment to the microdrive's durability (http://www.impactdigitals.com/bios/biggart/biggart.htm)Yes you were correct I was looking in the wrong place
Found the whole line

Thanks
Fred

[USAIR]

First on the lens their are no differences between the Gray and USA ?

No problem with warranty ?



How much battery life difference between microdrive and cf memory.

Just trying to figure if I need an additional battery.



When I was shooting sports for the school here, I used 717 and 828, carried five batteries, and would use them up in one day of shooting.

Is the 20d battery life better or worse then these two cameras?



Thanks everyone for the help:clap
Fred

[Andy]

Is the 20d battery life better or worse then these two cameras?



Thanks everyone for the help:clap
Fred

a 20d with one battery onboard and anohter in your pocket can't be drained in a day. well, if it was 0degs and you were using onboard flash all day maybe.

[USAIR]

a 20d with one battery onboard and anohter in your pocket can't be drained in a day. well, if it was 0degs and you were using onboard flash all day maybe.Thats good to hear thanks for your help
Fred

[luckyrwe]

First on the lens their are no differences between the Gray and USA ?
No problem with warranty ?
How much battery life difference between microdrive and cf memory.
Just trying to figure if I need an additional battery.
Fred

I used to think that Gray Market was bad juju, then I realized that every camera sold in Japan does not have a USA waranty, hence "Gray" if imported to the USA. They are the same stuff, they work fine. Now with digital bodies I wonder if some odf the options may differ, and there is the wonder where if something goes realy wrong, will you be covered. But as far as the physical lens itself, they do not have a different manufacturing method for USA lenses.

The microdrive uses more power than CF of course, but I heard somewhere that over the course of 1000 images it will use enough power to have made only 30 more images, so we're not talking much of a drain at all. At least nothing to dwell over. An AF lens hunting for the focal point will use more power.

But get a battery anyhow. Always. You never know when yours will die. I sometimes with that my 1DMkII would use AA batteries, but since it does not and I have no other choice, I choose to not be without power at the worst possible time.

[USAIR]

Here's what I have found

B&H $1387.15
Adorama $1388.80
Onecall $1447.75

This is just 20d body + 3 day shipping to Alexandria,Ky. total price
Thought this might be helpful to some

I will be buying in a couple of weeks so if anyone wants to add more please do

I am really intrested in figuring out the lenses before I buy
I have been reading the lens threads on dgrin trying to absorb as much as I can

Thanks again
Fred

[jimf]

The microdrive uses more power than CF of course, but I heard somewhere that over the course of 1000 images it will use enough power to have made only 30 more images, so we're not talking much of a drain at all.

I don't know what you heard or where, but that hasn't been my experience. 30% more is about what I see -- call it 600 versus 800 frames, that sounds about right. Mind you, 600 frames is still a hell of a lot of shooting; I never considered increased power consumption to be a significant detriment to microdrive.

If you have a fast body (as Charles says, not a 300D or 10D) then newer CF cards can easily outperform microdrive, and even if you don't have a fast body then offloading it through a CF card reader can be much faster with a CF card than a microdrive. With some of the newer 80x cards the difference is about a factor of two.

I have both microdrive and CF cards and I strongly prefer CF; solid state, no moving parts, much more difficult to damage -- not that I've lost a microdrive yet, but I know people who have. All it takes is one bad drop.

What's more, these days mainstream CF (up to about 2G) is about the same cost as a microdrive and if density is everything then you can get twice the density with CF versus microdrive. Neither was true even a year ago. I think the years of microdrive being an interesting choice in storage are shortly going to be behind us.

But microdrives sure are cool -- all that mechanics in that itty bitty box.

[USAIR]

just like Charles (only on a smaller scale)

I know I said a couple of weeks but I couldn't wait :lol3

There is a wrestling tournament coming up at the high school so what the heck.

Just wanted to give an update on what I decided.


Canon 20d
2g cf card
Spare battery
24 -70 f/2.8 usm
77 mm polarizer
All from B&H
:smile6 :smile6 :smile6 :smile6

In the not to distant future will be the 70-200 f/2.8L is usm :D :D

Thanks everyone for the help

Fred

[cmr164]

just like Charles (only on a smaller scale)

I know I said a couple of weeks but I couldn't wait :lol3

There is a wrestling tournament coming up at the high school so what the heck.

Just wanted to give an update on what I decided.


Canon 20d
2g cf card
Spare battery
24 -70 f/2.8 usm
77 mm polorizer
All from B&H
:smile6 :smile6 :smile6 :smile6

In the not to distant future will be the 70-200 f/2.8L is usm :D :D

Thanks everyone for the help

Fred
Excellent choices!! You will have a blast!

[fish]

I know I said a couple of weeks but I couldn't wait :lol3
Gotta love that urge for instant gratification. :lol I can't tell you how much I've spent on overnight and 2 day shipping just to get a goody sooner. :)


Just wanted to give an update on what I decided.
Canon 20d
2g cf card
Spare battery
24 -70 f/2.8 usm
77 mm polorizer
All from B&H
:smile6 :smile6 :smile6 :smile6
Wise choices, grasshopper. :thumb My only suggestions would be to get a generic battery, as they typically have higher mah numbers than Canon and are cheaper. Also, unless you plan on shooting a lot of reflective surfaces right off the bat, I'd recommend that you hold off on the polarizer (you know it has to be circular, right?) and get a high quality multi-coated UV filter instead (B+W or Heliopan). If you shoot RAW, you'll be able to pump up the saturation and adjust the exposure sufficiently to where a polarizer can be superfluous. Just my opinion, of course.

Have fun, Fred! :)

[USAIR]

Gotta love that urge for instant gratification. :lol I can't tell you how much I've spent on overnight and 2 day shipping just to get a goody sooner. :)
[/color]

[color=#cdcdcd]
Wise choices, grasshopper. :thumb My only suggestions would be to get a generic battery, as they typically have higher mah numbers than Canon and are cheaper. Also, unless you plan on shooting a lot of reflective surfaces right off the bat, I'd recommend that you hold off on the polarizer (you know it has to be circular, right?) and get a high quality multi-coated UV filter instead (B+W or Heliopan). If you shoot RAW, you'll be able to pump up the saturation and adjust the exposure sufficiently to where a polarizer can be superfluous. Just my opinion, of course.

Have fun, Fred! :)Yes I ordered the generic battery is was 1500 mah instead of 1390 mah
Yes the polarizer was circular.

Can't wait to take it for a test drive.

Fred

[wxwax]

just like Charles (only on a smaller scale)

I know I said a couple of weeks but I couldn't wait :lol3

There is a wrestling tournament coming up at the high school so what the heck.

Just wanted to give an update on what I decided.


Canon 20d
2g cf card
Spare battery
24 -70 f/2.8 usm
77 mm polarizer
All from B&H
:smile6 :smile6 :smile6 :smile6

In the not to distant future will be the 70-200 f/2.8L is usm :D :D

Thanks everyone for the help

Fred
:clap :clap :clap

[ian408]

I was wondering just that charles. I know from a thread way back that baldy got caught out with Micro drive. But i have been caught out with SD cards also.

What do the pro's use now ?

I ask that because the dig camera world changes every 5 mins.
I broke down and picked up a 4G microdrive for $140 w/rebate. It's a Hitachi
(nee IBM). So far, I think it's slower than memory but certainly usable. And
as Steve C. suggested a while back, I won't run out of memory so soon :D

Ian

[fish]

I broke down and picked up a 4G microdrive for $140 w/rebate. It's a Hitachi
(nee IBM). So far, I think it's slower than memory but certainly usable. And
as Steve C. suggested a while back, I won't run out of memory so soon :D

Ian

Don't drop it! :nono

CF cards can take drops...tiny things with flying heads and spinny things can't.

[ian408]

Don't drop it! :nono

CF cards can take drops...tiny things with flying heads and spinny things can't.
You probably don't remember the stiction problem IBM had a few years ago.

Let me tell you. A disk can take way more abuse than you might imagine
(assuming it's not spinning at the time).

Ian

[cmr164]

Don't drop it! :nono

CF cards can take drops...tiny things with flying heads and spinny things can't.
I assume you are joking but please don't there as there is so much of this idiocy going around already.

For the record the microdrive is rated for a 2000G shock of that type.

[marlinspike]

As long as the microdrive is not in use at the moment, it can take a drop. If you want to get more speed out of the microdrive and have a card reader and Win XP, stick the card in the reader, go to control panel, performance and maintenance, administrative tools, computer management. On the left bar select disk management. Righ click on the drive with the microdrive in it and select format, and format it for FAT with default cluster size. This will give you 64k clusters.
Richard

[ian408]

As long as the microdrive is not in use at the moment, it can take a drop. If you want to get more speed out of the microdrive and have a card reader and Win XP, stick the card in the reader, go to control panel, performance and maintenance, administrative tools, computer management. On the left bar select disk management. Righ click on the drive with the microdrive in it and select format, and format it for FAT with default cluster size. This will give you 64k clusters.
Richard
Won't this change the next time you format it in-camera?

Ian

[fish]

For the record the microdrive is rated for a 2000G shock of that type.

You mean 200G....still, that's amazing for a spinny thing. In fact, I think that's 4x greater than the shock specs for a 4gb CF card.

I stand corrected for my "idiocy".

[cmr164]

You mean 200G....still, that's amazing for a spinny thing. In fact, I think that's 4x greater than the shock specs for a 4gb CF card.

I stand corrected for my "idiocy". Sorry I really thought you were joking.


Believe it or not I mean 2000 G !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

200 G is when operating and is perhaps even more astounding when you consider that the 200G is with the heads out on the spinning platter. Course if you can get 200G on it in the camera than the card is the least of your problems, as the camera probably had to get hit with 2,000G to get 200G on the internally mounted CF device.

[fish]

Believe it or not I mean 2000 G !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Since I am only familiar with larger drives, not microdrives, I asked a friend of mine (a quite brilliant and experienced semiconductor engineer w/ advanced degree who shall remain namelss, but was one of the primary designers of the SPARC processor) about the reliability of microdrives versus flash. Here is his response:


Dear Smart Guy,
Can you help me understand how an Hitachi 4GB microdrive has a shock
spec of 200G while a Lexar 4GB CF card is only rated at 50G?
Intuitively, I would think the drive with it's spinny and flying bits
would be much more susceptible to shock than a static chip.


fish,

I'm with you.

The shock damage for the Lexar CF card would probably only be from
electrical connections coming loose, due to shock. Or maybe the case
would deform enough to actually crack the silicon?

There are lots more opportunities for shock damage to a microdrive --
not just connections, but disk warpage/breakage, head-touches-spinning-disk damage, etc.

I'd suggest reading those specs very, very carefully. My guess is that
the CF spec is for both operating *and* non-operating conditions.
Maybe the shock spec for the Hitachi is only for *non*-operating
conditions, when the head is parked. When the head is parked, it can
withstand a lot more shock than when operating, because head-parking
eliminates the possibility of head-touches-spinning-disk damage.

Note that any shock that would damage either a CF card or a microdrive
while it's operating would probably cause serious damage (or total
destruction) to your 20D, too. Not to mention "bye-bye" to any lens
attached. The shock we have to worry about (esp for microdrives) is the
non-operating shock, when it's *out of* the camera -- for example, that
little 4' drop to a concrete floor, which can generate serious peak
deceleration ("G") forces.

[cmr164]

Since I am only familiar with larger drives, not microdrives, I asked a friend of mine (a quite brilliant and experienced semiconductor engineer w/ advanced degree who shall remain namelss, but was one of the primary designers of the SPARC processor) about the reliability of microdrives versus flash. Here is his response:

Fish;
Operating shock from impact in camera . 200 G

NON-operating shock from a drop is really 2000 G

Full sine (paint shaker) type shock is a lot less, but your camera will still be the first to go.

These are the published numbers that Hitachi has to live up to, but a million (guessed number) Ipods confirm the reliability

[pathfinder]

FWIW I was always a CF guy as I thought that solid state had to be more reliable than a spinning disk like your friend, Fish. But CMR is right that any shock that will destroy a MD will absolutely hammer a 20D!

I have had 2 1Gb CF chips go south for no discernable reason. Sandisk apparently knew something because they replaced one of them for me. Lexar replaced the other.

CF WILL tolerate humidity and freezing temperatures better than Microdrives.. Hard drives do not take well to condensation so I limit use in the winter time outdoors for short periods.

I have used a 4Gb MD exclusively in my 1DMkll since last spring - I never need to change chips in the field because the MD lasts all day long even at an air show where I was shooting high speed frame rates.

I think both media are pretty good and don't choose what I use on that basis but let size needed and external temperature and humidity decide for me. When the 4GB CF chips are available for less than $100 it will be a no brainer. Until then, I will continue to use my MD and CF almost interchangeably.

[marlinspike]

Won't this change the next time you format it in-camera?

Ian
Yeah, but why format in camera?
Richard

[Andy]

many moons ago, as a young lad starting out at ibm, i was asked to deliver a 3340 disk drive to a very important client. ibm had just performed some service on it, had spent countless hours recovering lost data due to head crashes (excuse me .. "head-disk interfaces" was what the ibm managers told us to call them :lol3... anyhow, it was snowing, icy, cold in ny that day. i get into the data center ("glass house" in those days) and if anyone recalls those old data centers, the raised floor was made of shiny, slippery bakelite tiles. well, you guessed it, in i walk, wearing a new pair of florsheims, and whoooooooooooops i go ass over teakettle as my old man likes to say. needless to say, the 3340 removable disk drive went up in the air, about 10 feet, hit one of the water cooling units for the mainframe system, and crashed to the floor. it remained in tact, but sadly, needed to go back to ibm for "recovery services." someone else returned it to the customer :lol3

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/images/PH3340.jpg

[ian408]

many moons ago, as a young lad starting out at ibm, i was asked to deliver a 3340 disk drive to a very important client. ibm had just performed some service on it, had spent countless hours recovering lost data due to head crashes (excuse me .. "head-disk interfaces" was what the ibm managers told us to call them :lol3... anyhow, it was snowing, icy, cold in ny that day. i get into the data center ("glass house" in those days) and if anyone recalls those old data centers, the raised floor was made of shiny, slippery bakelite tiles. well, you guessed it, in i walk, wearing a new pair of florsheims, and whoooooooooooops i go ass over teakettle as my old man likes to say. needless to say, the 3340 removable disk drive went up in the air, about 10 feet, hit one of the water cooling units for the mainframe system, and crashed to the floor. it remained in tact, but sadly, needed to go back to ibm for "recovery services." someone else returned it to the customer :lol3

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/images/PH3340.jpg

In one of the first DC's I worked in, an old DEC RP05 walked off the ramp.
No recovering the platters in that pack :D

ian