ezprints.icc vs. sRGB

[belf]

don't worry, i won't debate the usage of either, but i do have a question.

there are some sRGB photos that look dramatically different when soft-proofing with the ezprints.icc colorspace. for those images, do you allow for shifts when uploading to smugmug? lets say i have an image that looks great when in the sRGB space, but looks overly saturated when proofed with ezprints.icc. in order to have a great print, let's say i tone down the saturation to compensate. which do i upload?

version a) which looks great on-screen but will print overly saturated
or
version b) which looks dull on-screen but will print fabulously

i'm starting to get to the point where i'm doubting there is a good answer to these questions. yet there are so many photographers signed up for smugmug... how does everyone else out there handle these basic issues? how do my smugmug heroes suggest i get around these issues?

thanks in advance,
Kim

[Andy]

Hi Kim,

Let's see some examples, okay? One of each? :ear

[belf]

for example purposes only. not adjusted for anything but saturation.

let's call this one A. when soft proofed via the ezprints.icc profile, it looks nicely saturated.

http://www.belf.org/ftp/20070421_003_flat.jpg

that means this one below is B. much more saturated, but overly saturated when proofed using the ezprints.icc profile.

http://www.belf.org/ftp/20070421_003_sat.jpg

i understand you asking for proof of the issue, but hasn't this been asked a million times. especially considering that i've seen your wonderful site and i know you must have dealt with the same issue yourself. what do you do when you run into the same issue?

kim

[Andy]

i understand you asking for proof of the issue,
I'm only asking for examples of photos that you are having trouble with, not any kind of proof of the issue :D

[Andy]

Here's how I do it:

I only use the soft-proof to check myself from time -to-time and to be sure I'm consistently accurate.

I do not attach the icc profile from ezp - I only save the image as a jpg in sRGB. Do not attach the ezp icc profile.

When properly calibrated, your print should look just like your file.

Where in the process do you fell you are having trouble, let's dissect that.

[belf]

sRGB and ezprint.icc are not the same. therefore, no matter how well my monitor is calibrated, files saved in the sRGB colorspace will almost never print "just like my file" when converted to the ezprints profile. that's the reason that you have allowed us to use the ezprints profile for soft-proofing, to see for ourselves what that difference will be.

i'm not having trouble with my process until i get to the point where i have to upload to smugmug. check out the photos you had me post. if i post a photo that has been optimized for the ezprint profile it will look dull on screen (A). if i post a photo that has been optimized for the sRGB colorspace then it will print oversaturated (B).

[Andy]

Ooh I see you have a Mac and a PC... which is your primary system?

[belf]

Ooh I see you have a Mac and a PC... which is your primary system?

i assume you're asking because of gamma related issues. either way, no, i just use a pc. again, don't most people go through this? i can't imagine i'm the first photographer to ask advice on what to do in this situation.

[Andy]

i assume you're asking because of gamma related issues. either way, no, i just use a pc. again, don't most people go through this? i can't imagine i'm the first photographer to ask advice on what to do in this situation.
Hi, many do, indeed. But there are so many factors that are individual, it's important to know everything. Thanks.

[Andy]

OK so maybe if I describe it this way...

Here is your first image left, and mine right:
http://www.belf.org/ftp/20070421_003_flat.jpghttp://www.smugmug.com/photos/149331993-L.jpg

So I just opened it, made my normal adjustment (yours could vary), did a soft-proof in Photoshop according to my tutorial (http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1123524), and I can see that it will print exactly as I see it on my monitor and on the web, via SmugMug.

Even your 2nd shot, if I proof it, I don't see any shift, nor should there be, on a true color print. Are we closer, or is it just too late for me (I'm in NY...)?

[belf]

i think we're getting somewhere. okay, you said, "Even your 2nd shot, if I proof it, I don't see any shift, nor should there be, on a true color print."

so i took your edited dog and saved it to my desktop. i opened it in photoshop and took a screengrab before doing anything (left image below). then i proofed the colors in photoshop, using the ezprints.icc and according to your specs (perceptual with no boxes checked) and took another screen grab (right image below). hopefully you can see the great deal of difference between the two images. can you
? i asked my wife to take a look (just to make sure i wasn't crazy and she concurred...).

http://www.belf.org/ftp/1.jpg

so, assuming that you do see a difference between the two screen grabs, and the only thing that has changed is the colorspace (sRGB to ezprints), then isn't it logical to think that if the image on the left is printed, it will look like the image on the right...

oh, and i'm in washington dc so i understand the late thing. :D

[Andy]

oh, and i'm in washington dc so i understand the late thing. :D
Shoot me an email at the help desk with a good time for me to ring you, we'll discuss a few things, okay?

[belf]

thanks andy. i just sent you an email. can't wait!

[Andy]

thanks andy. i just sent you an email. can't wait!
Super Hero Steve Cavigliano, will be calling you - he's on our Staff and knows exactly how to help :thumb

[belf]

Super Hero Steve Cavigliano, will be calling you - he's on our Staff and knows exactly how to help :thumb

great. i'm waiting by the phone.

[belf]

for those people who will read this thread looking for answers, i thought i would share what i found. some statements are obvious, some are not. either way, it might help someone:

* all photos uploaded to smugmug are converted to sRGB

* when photos are displayed online, smugmug automatically adds some sharpening to make sure they look great and are crisp

* photos that are printed using the "true color" option are printed directly from the original file you uploaded. that means they are printed using the sRGB profile that you (or smugmug) applied to the original photo. NO modifications are made to the file (sharpening, color, etc.). for the "true" option, pre-upload sharpening becomes all important.

* photos that are printed using the "auto color" option are automatically edited using i2e (http://www.colour-science.com/). enhancements to color, sharpening, contrast, etc. are all applied, including the shift to the ezprints.icc color profile.

* and here's the obvious, but important, summary: the terms "auto" and "true" color apply to more than color. they are really as such:

auto = enhancements will be made to your photos
true = NO enhancements will be made to your photos

did i get all that correct?

keep up the good work smugmug!

[ivar]

* when photos are displayed online, smugmug automatically adds some sharpening to make sure they look great and are crispOnly the sizes that we create (so the thumbs, small, medium, large, etc) have a bit of sharpening (and they are only created, providing the original is larger than that size).

See also http://www.smugmug.com/help/display-quality

Otherwise, I think you have them all correct :thumb

[belf]

Otherwise, I think you have them all correct :thumb

the learning curve to maintain control of the process is steep but i think i'm getting there. here's the good news though, THANK GOODNESS THAT YOU GUYS ARE AROUND because no other site would allow users to maintain control the way you guys do. the past few days have been frustrating but i'm comin' round the corner.

thanks for the validation ivar

[Andy]

the learning curve to maintain control of the process is steep but i think i'm getting there. here's the good news though, THANK GOODNESS THAT YOU GUYS ARE AROUND because no other site would allow users to maintain control the way you guys do. the past few days have been frustrating but i'm comin' round the corner.

thanks for the validation ivar
w00t :thumb Holler for help anytime!

[marlinspike]

Even your 2nd shot, if I proof it, I don't see any shift, nor should there be, on a true color print.

Ok, here you lost me now. If there is no shift going from sRGB to ezprints.icc doesn't that then mean that ezprints.icc is exactly the same as sRGB so there is no need to even download ezprints.icc?

[jfriend]

Ok, here you lost me now. If there is no shift going from sRGB to ezprints.icc doesn't that then mean that ezprints.icc is exactly the same as sRGB so there is no need to even download ezprints.icc?

No, it means that the ezprints profile is capable of reproducing all the colors in a specific sRGB image and thus the two look the same.

Other images may contain sRGB colors that are out of gamut for the ezprints printers and those colors would change significantly when soft proofed with the ezprints profile. This would indicate to you that you can either take the colors as they are modified to fit into the ezprints color space or you can change them yourself before giving them to ezprints. It is very easy to make colors that are out of gamut for a printer. It doesn't happen that often in nature, but it can happen fairly easily in post processing.

I, myself, don't soft proof every image I print. I've somewhat learned over time what kinds of images to worry about and, when something doesn't come out quite the way I wanted, I know where to look for the problem and how to then go about fixing it ot my liking.

This is a complicated topic that takes awhile to get.

[flyingdutchie]

No, it means that the ezprints profile is capable of reproducing all the colors in a specific sRGB image and thus the two look the same.

Other images may contain sRGB colors that are out of gamut for the ezprints printers and those colors would change significantly when soft proofed with the ezprints profile. This would indicate to you that you can either take the colors as they are modified to fit into the ezprints color space or you can change them yourself before giving them to ezprints. It is very easy to make colors that are out of gamut for a printer. It doesn't happen that often in nature, but it can happen fairly easily in post processing.

I, myself, don't soft proof every image I print. I've somewhat learned over time what kinds of images to worry about and, when something doesn't come out quite the way I wanted, I know where to look for the problem and how to then go about fixing it ot my liking.

This is a complicated topic that takes awhile to get.

But when you print, the (pure) blacks and (pure) whites may not look like they do on your monitor. If I understand correctly, soft-proofing will show you this difference. And i see this when i do soft-proofing.

When i have a picture that contains no colors that are out-of-gamut (for the ezprints.icc), switching 'ezprints' soft-proofing on will make my picture look a little different... especially in the blacks (blackest possible ink) and the whites (paper color). And, paper is not back-lit. :D

But basically, I as well use soft-proofing just for checking if colors are out of gamut. The final prints that i get in the mail always have looked very very close to the image on the screen (not as bright, but color-wise very very close).